Great OP ! I agree 100%.

ZOS has made a great game & so much of this great game seems so well thought out & implemented.

I am hopeful & confident that ZOS will do their best for this MMO & that I will play it for years to come.

I really tire of the "i paid $ for this so ZOS better do what I say!" attitude, which is so unbelievably selfish. Feedback is good but it should be constructive & not include some faux financial leverage.

Take steps towards reinventing the game so that it is more like Skyrim and less like WoW
This is what I wanted to see, as a hardcore Elder Scrolls fan (having spent a loooong time in the other Elder Scrolls game, and playing ESO from its birth for several years):
http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/219517/bringing-it-all-back-home#latest

In my heart I still want Skyrim Online. More immersive adventures, less focus on AOE and zerg mechanics, and things like a meaningful day and night, and I'm sure I'm not alone.

dem0n1k wrote: »

Great OP ! I agree 100%.

ZOS has made a great game & so much of this great game seems so well thought out & implemented.

I am hopeful & confident that ZOS will do their best for this MMO & that I will play it for years to come.

I really tire of the "i paid $ for this so ZOS better do what I say!" attitude, which is so unbelievably selfish. Feedback is good but it should be constructive & not include some faux financial leverage.

I agree with your statement and wishes, but also realize that there is a difference in the "I paid $ for this so ZOS better do what I say" and " I've already paid give me a reason to continue to pay" statements.

I personally would rather see new content (which is coming) and perks (also coming) as apposed to a new skin for something I already have use of.

Also, I will always be against forcing play styles such as the amount of PvE in IC, they should have had more objectives and less quests (not talking about dungeons) Also, I am against Forced grouping for Main story quests like in Craglorn as well as making items BoP to kill any work around you might have had for not wanting to play a certain way. This game has enough population and content to not have to resort to such things.

A lot of folks may not agree with me but these are just examples of my opinion on things. That doesn't mean I'm right and they are wrong, its just feedback for them (ZOS) to make decisions with and depending on the amount of feedback they get , agreeing or opposing, from player to player they have a basis whether or not something needs to be done.

Side note: I wouldn't have made this reply this long but I'm stuck in a loading screen, at least I know it is because Auridon is fuller than I've seen it in a long time, folks are everywhere. Loading screens or not, that is a good thing.

WalkingLegacy wrote: »

DovresMalven wrote: »

Take steps towards reinventing the game so that it is more like Skyrim and less like WoW
This is what I wanted to see, as a hardcore Elder Scrolls fan (having spent a loooong time in the other Elder Scrolls game, and playing ESO from its birth for several years):
http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/219517/bringing-it-all-back-home#latest

In my heart I still want Skyrim Online. More immersive adventures, less focus on AOE and zerg mechanics, and things like a meaningful day and night, and I'm sure I'm not alone.

It's not even close to being like wow and it wouldn't hurt for it to be so. The thing that irks me the most is this games identity. It's an MMO that tries to play like a single player game...why? I hate when my BFF and I am in our own solo missions or when those missions where the quest items/kills don't count for both.

ESO would be a fantastic MMO back in 2004. I'm not sure their project managers know how to modernize this game.

Champion point system is archaic.

Their client is not very good. Their hotfixes are nonexistent. They don't role out major balances until big DLC. Same with QoL changes.

2016 is the year where QoL should be their main focus. TG and DB will be good DLC but more than new crown store and DLC will be needed to add and RETAIN players.

I completely agree that ESO doesnt know what it should be. In fact, the best thing might be to make ESO more MMO, and have Bethesda give us a co-op Elder Scrolls focusing more on the aspects myself and other people are looking for, people more interested in exploring an immersive tamriel rather than grouping up and competing over stats.

Is this wow clone still alive? lol

Great post.
What to do?
We are not moderators.
So let's use the most powerful tool available to us...
Silence.
Nothing stings like being completely ignored.
The Golden Rule of the Internet...
Don't Feed The Trolls!
It works.
It's so tempting to bite the flame bait, I know, but a flame needs fuel, so don't.

I do agree with you that the forum has more negativity than it should and there are too many people that take these things personally/too seriously. Selfishness is indeed a cause of this, though it goes beyond merely wanting what is best - the inability / unwillingness to consider other perspectives is alarming at times.

As far as trying to be constructive on these forums, well, I would argue that goes both ways. It is very frustrating to see the sort of toxic post you refer to and have a Dev or ZoS staff specifically address the post in an attempt to create a discussion when other more more thoughtful, considerate and informative posts do not even get a single "lurk" or anything to that effect. It reinforces the notion that the squeaky wheel gets the grease and creates the impression that to get your point considered, your best off posting precisely what you are asking us not to.

I also disagree that class balance posts are QQ and overstated (although they can be and unfortunately those tend to get the most attention). It's one thing to be able to complete the Fungal Grotto daily, it's another to be one of 12 invited by my Raid guild to try that new trial coming out on my main class. I raided as a sorcerer in 1.5 and I tried to play a magicka DK after 1.6 and it was not fun. I don't log into this game to get a trophy for participation. I don't take comfort in wrecking inferior players. I don't think that makes me selfish for wanting to compete on a relatively even playing field with other players. I am absolutely flabbergasted that ZoS does re-balancing once a year and I will call them out on such a dubious policy every single time the subject comes up. That is a fair criticism and I will not be dissuaded from expressing it just because too many other people are selfish on these forums.

KYNG wrote: »

Didnt see a topic on Lag and Disconnections.

I would love ESO to be the best it can be.
But when crown store items are higher on the "to do list" than game stability, its hard to want to throw ZOS any kind of bone.

I'm speaking purely from a console point of view.

I can ignore a lot of what is lacking in this game such as no text chat, no latency meters, no buff/debuff timers, terrible UI (Guild Bank anyone?), absurd crafting timers, poor grouping system, bugs and glitches (Some game breaking), anti social phasing (Craglorn anyone?) and the list goes on.

But I cannot get passed the TOTAL lack of hustle from ZOS on trying to fix the horrid lag and unacceptable disconnections in this game. I dont want to even start on pvp and how unplayable it gets.

This game came out on consoles mid year 2015, june or july I think. And on PC in 2014.
Was nothing learnt from PC?

How is this still an issue? Tech forums for consoles are bombarded with "lag this" and "disconnection that". Its still on going.
I also want to add this is the ONLY game this happens to. I can play a FREE game such as Planetside 2 with 100vs100 battling on screen, and it plays smoother than ESO.

Put priority on optimizing the game so it can be played AS ADVERTISED.

No where in the game trailers do you see people freezing on the spot, people in fast forward, or screens taking you to the login screen telling you that you were disconnected due to not having internet while talking to your friends in console party chat about it. (You need internet to even use console party chat).

END RANT.

Sigh. And rants like this is a pretty good example of what the OP is talking about. The endless complaining about how much time it takes to fix a particular person's pet peeve, and the assumption that the fact it's taking too much time is because ZoS doesn't care or has wrong priorities.

The fact is, ZoS *does* care, and the problems you're describing are actually quite a high priority for them. It's not like their "to do" list is linear -- time spent on creating Crown Store content takes NOTHING away from time spent fixing lag/connection issues, or changing class balance, etc, because there is actually more than a single person at ZoS working on the game. Multiple people mean they can address multiple things at once. So you can have people working on Crown Store items independently of people working on lag/connection issues, who are independent of people working on new content, etc. It's a pretty big team, and they can address a lot of different things at once.

If you've ever done software development, you should be aware that fixing problems faster isn't a matter of adding more people -- in fact, adding more people has a strong tendency to slow the process down. (I direct you to "The Mythical Man Month" for the classic description of why this is...) Most of the people on the team wouldn't even have the skills to help out on this issue -- Artists and modelers and script writers and content producers aren't going to be much help fixing network communications issues (which this is), and even the systems coders can only help peripherally because their expertise isn't in networking. There's probably a core group of people who are focused on the network end of things, for who this issue is likely a very high priority.

And it's clear that it is, because I've seen a LOT of developer commentary and patch references on this topic in recent months. Many of those references are talking about making changes to collect more data, which then takes a lot of time and effort to analyze to try to figure out what's actually happening. (I'll note that about three months after starting to connect data on the long load screen issues they identified the culprit, which had to do with number of quests you'd completed - not at all something anyone would have expected, and published a fix which made a huge difference...) I note that they've identified a number of other things affecting lag and made fixes for some of them, and more have already been announced, so perhaps instead of making rants like this, a more constructive approach to commenting might be useful.

stevenbennett_ESO wrote: »

KYNG wrote: »

Didnt see a topic on Lag and Disconnections.

I would love ESO to be the best it can be.
But when crown store items are higher on the "to do list" than game stability, its hard to want to throw ZOS any kind of bone.

I'm speaking purely from a console point of view.

I can ignore a lot of what is lacking in this game such as no text chat, no latency meters, no buff/debuff timers, terrible UI (Guild Bank anyone?), absurd crafting timers, poor grouping system, bugs and glitches (Some game breaking), anti social phasing (Craglorn anyone?) and the list goes on.

But I cannot get passed the TOTAL lack of hustle from ZOS on trying to fix the horrid lag and unacceptable disconnections in this game. I dont want to even start on pvp and how unplayable it gets.

This game came out on consoles mid year 2015, june or july I think. And on PC in 2014.
Was nothing learnt from PC?

How is this still an issue? Tech forums for consoles are bombarded with "lag this" and "disconnection that". Its still on going.
I also want to add this is the ONLY game this happens to. I can play a FREE game such as Planetside 2 with 100vs100 battling on screen, and it plays smoother than ESO.

Put priority on optimizing the game so it can be played AS ADVERTISED.

No where in the game trailers do you see people freezing on the spot, people in fast forward, or screens taking you to the login screen telling you that you were disconnected due to not having internet while talking to your friends in console party chat about it. (You need internet to even use console party chat).

END RANT.

Sigh. And rants like this is a pretty good example of what the OP is talking about. The endless complaining about how much time it takes to fix a particular person's pet peeve, and the assumption that the fact it's taking too much time is because ZoS doesn't care or has wrong priorities.

The fact is, ZoS *does* care, and the problems you're describing are actually quite a high priority for them. It's not like their "to do" list is linear -- time spent on creating Crown Store content takes NOTHING away from time spent fixing lag/connection issues, or changing class balance, etc, because there is actually more than a single person at ZoS working on the game. Multiple people mean they can address multiple things at once. So you can have people working on Crown Store items independently of people working on lag/connection issues, who are independent of people working on new content, etc. It's a pretty big team, and they can address a lot of different things at once.

If you've ever done software development, you should be aware that fixing problems faster isn't a matter of adding more people -- in fact, adding more people has a strong tendency to slow the process down. (I direct you to "The Mythical Man Month" for the classic description of why this is...) Most of the people on the team wouldn't even have the skills to help out on this issue -- Artists and modelers and script writers and content producers aren't going to be much help fixing network communications issues (which this is), and even the systems coders can only help peripherally because their expertise isn't in networking. There's probably a core group of people who are focused on the network end of things, for who this issue is likely a very high priority.

And it's clear that it is, because I've seen a LOT of developer commentary and patch references on this topic in recent months. Many of those references are talking about making changes to collect more data, which then takes a lot of time and effort to analyze to try to figure out what's actually happening. (I'll note that about three months after starting to connect data on the long load screen issues they identified the culprit, which had to do with number of quests you'd completed - not at all something anyone would have expected, and published a fix which made a huge difference...) I note that they've identified a number of other things affecting lag and made fixes for some of them, and more have already been announced, so perhaps instead of making rants like this, a more constructive approach to commenting might be useful.

Sigh. And all that white knighting again. Its not like there are other MMO titles and we are able to compare the ongoing efforts of devs to those titles and Z. ongoing faliure to address serious bugs that are here for months (some for years).

Lets face it - ESO is not revolutionary in any matter - its all been done before. Therefore we, as paying customers are allowed to expect at least the same level of competency in fixing and upgrading game systems.

Dont get me wrong - the game wont die. Too much money already invested, TES franchize put it. No, it wont die. But soon it will become something like Secret World - a niche title that people hearing some news about will go "Huh, didnt know its still on."

I wouldnt want that to happen, i trully belive the game still can make a comeback.

Autolycus wrote: »

sadownik wrote: »

I don't hold the most popular opinions in this community, but I actually see ESO making large strides towards improvement, and in a variety of areas. I know it's sometimes difficult to see that ZOS is dedicating their time and efforts to the right projects, but we really have taken some big steps.

While i agree with that part, i also think that the level from which we started makes striding toward improvement much easier, but nonetheless - yes ESO gets better. Problem is each of last years premieres in MMO took a bite from ESO population and while some returned, many didnt. This year seem to be much more interesting MMO wise and without serous effects and not just effort i see an iceberg ahead.

stevenbennett_ESO wrote: »

KYNG wrote: »

Didnt see a topic on Lag and Disconnections.

I would love ESO to be the best it can be.
But when crown store items are higher on the "to do list" than game stability, its hard to want to throw ZOS any kind of bone.

I'm speaking purely from a console point of view.

I can ignore a lot of what is lacking in this game such as no text chat, no latency meters, no buff/debuff timers, terrible UI (Guild Bank anyone?), absurd crafting timers, poor grouping system, bugs and glitches (Some game breaking), anti social phasing (Craglorn anyone?) and the list goes on.

But I cannot get passed the TOTAL lack of hustle from ZOS on trying to fix the horrid lag and unacceptable disconnections in this game. I dont want to even start on pvp and how unplayable it gets.

This game came out on consoles mid year 2015, june or july I think. And on PC in 2014.
Was nothing learnt from PC?

How is this still an issue? Tech forums for consoles are bombarded with "lag this" and "disconnection that". Its still on going.
I also want to add this is the ONLY game this happens to. I can play a FREE game such as Planetside 2 with 100vs100 battling on screen, and it plays smoother than ESO.

Put priority on optimizing the game so it can be played AS ADVERTISED.

No where in the game trailers do you see people freezing on the spot, people in fast forward, or screens taking you to the login screen telling you that you were disconnected due to not having internet while talking to your friends in console party chat about it. (You need internet to even use console party chat).

END RANT.

Sigh. And rants like this is a pretty good example of what the OP is talking about. The endless complaining about how much time it takes to fix a particular person's pet peeve, and the assumption that the fact it's taking too much time is because ZoS doesn't care or has wrong priorities.

The fact is, ZoS *does* care, and the problems you're describing are actually quite a high priority for them. It's not like their "to do" list is linear -- time spent on creating Crown Store content takes NOTHING away from time spent fixing lag/connection issues, or changing class balance, etc, because there is actually more than a single person at ZoS working on the game. Multiple people mean they can address multiple things at once. So you can have people working on Crown Store items independently of people working on lag/connection issues, who are independent of people working on new content, etc. It's a pretty big team, and they can address a lot of different things at once.

If you've ever done software development, you should be aware that fixing problems faster isn't a matter of adding more people -- in fact, adding more people has a strong tendency to slow the process down. (I direct you to "The Mythical Man Month" for the classic description of why this is...) Most of the people on the team wouldn't even have the skills to help out on this issue -- Artists and modelers and script writers and content producers aren't going to be much help fixing network communications issues (which this is), and even the systems coders can only help peripherally because their expertise isn't in networking. There's probably a core group of people who are focused on the network end of things, for who this issue is likely a very high priority.

And it's clear that it is, because I've seen a LOT of developer commentary and patch references on this topic in recent months. Many of those references are talking about making changes to collect more data, which then takes a lot of time and effort to analyze to try to figure out what's actually happening. (I'll note that about three months after starting to connect data on the long load screen issues they identified the culprit, which had to do with number of quests you'd completed - not at all something anyone would have expected, and published a fix which made a huge difference...) I note that they've identified a number of other things affecting lag and made fixes for some of them, and more have already been announced, so perhaps instead of making rants like this, a more constructive approach to commenting might be useful.

Pet peeve?! Are you joking?
Because lagging and DCing isnt a pet peeve.

ESO is online only, so having a game that cant be played online properly in 2016 when it was created in 2014 is beyond unacceptable.

If you bought a cellphone that turned off randomly everyday and apps took 30secs-1min to open, I highly doubt you'd call that a pet peeve.
Thats a faulty product.

If a game doesnt work as advertised, then its faulty.

Pet peeves are things like, "I wish consoles had text chat".
Asking to fix lag and DCs is my right as a consumer to correct a faulty product.

You also say its a high priority for them. Game came out 2014 on PC 2015 on consoles.
2 major expansions have come out since then and countless crown store items. And yet still the same lag on consoles, not sure about PC.

You ask ANY console player PS4 or X1, you wont find a single person who says "no I dont lag in PvP".

I understand players need new content, but it should have a stable foundation to rest on. ESO as a game after all this time is unacceptable. You cant keep throwing distractions at us thinking it will be enough to over look the instability of the overall game.

I wasn't saying add more people , I'm saying add competent people. People who know how MMOs work, how client and server info act with each other, how servers work, how latency affects the game. All of that stuff.
Because clearly they learnt nothing going from PCs to consoles.

As sad as it is, and it is sad. PC players were beta testers. They paid every month to beta test. I was expecting the console version to be near flawless or at the very least work 90% of the time.
Instead console players also became beta testers, paying beta testers. And that is unacceptable by any standard.

And on the topic of collecting data on the issue. They have had over half a year. Over half a year on an issue that affects every console player everyday. Im not even including the time ESO has spent on PC, so I'm being soft.
8th generation consoles are more "PC clones" than ever. So it shouldn't be impossible to apply the things they learnt or know from PC to consoles.

KYNG wrote: »

Once again I'll be talking about a consoles point of view.

My counter to your post is MMOs aren't new, things players ask for are in older and cheaper MMOs.
Lets look at text chat. On consoles we dont have it, yet every MMO does. Its a basic feature like a speedo on a car dashboard.
Yet on DCUO ( DC Universe Online) they have text chat. DCUO is free and came out on the PS3.

Also alot of older MMOs have better UI (Guild Bank I'm looking at you). You cant deny ESO UIs are terrible, cant sort your items when researching or deconstructing, cant search in trader stores and the list goes on.

Those are just a few things that MMOs who came out BEFORE ESO do better.
Its these things I question because every other MMO does it better or has said feature.
Didn't ZOS look at the MMO playing field and learn anything from its competition? Didnt they say "hmmm, ok we see what works and what doesnt. What everyone has and what they dont"?

Too many basic MMO features are missing from console. This isnt Skyrim, its an MMO. There lots of "min/maximizing" to stay competitive with other players. If you want the "elder scrolls" feel then turn the feature off like damage numbers etc. But for those actually want to better their character, you need basic features like floating text damage.

Playing on consoles is one big guessing game.
"hmmm is the enemy at 50% or 25%? Can I execute now?"
"ummm is destruction staff doing more damage than my restoration staff with my CP set up?"
"uhhhh dual wield or 2 handed?"
"are my buffs still up?" ( visuals arent enough, some dont have any while others are the same)

I'm curious, what other console game supports the development and use of addons? Last I checked this was exclusive to PCs, so I don't find the relevance of it in this discussion. Text chat is coming to console, and perhaps it should have been included in the console release. But if it came down to adding console chat after the game's been out for several months or releasing the highly-anticipated game on time, which would be chosen by the masses? Both of these items are a matter of convenience and preference, and just as you prefer to play on consoles, I prefer to play on PC, where I have access to those neat features.

ZOS learned a lot of things from prior MMOs, and there are a great deal of people I've chatted with over the last two years that will attest to that. ESO is one big mash-up of components from other successful MMOs, like how Cyrodiil is so much like DAoC or how having multiple guilds is like GW2. Also, just for the record, DCUO first released on PC and was subscription based. Which reminds me, are there addons in DCUO on ps3/ps4, or just on PC?

You're right that certain elements of the game could be improved or optimized, and that there are other successfull MMOs in existence today that ZOS could look to for ideas in improving this game, but ZOS is still making changes and additions, right?

A lot of people carry this mentality that ESO is still just a beta test, for everyone all the time. Focusing on negativity isn't going to resolve anything. It's always better to work toward a solution and not focus on the problem. ESO isn't just a beta test anymore, because we're seeing functioning DLC that adds value to this game for a lot of people. It's okay if this DLC isn't one that's catered to your liking, because you're not the only one paying or playing. There will probably be something you can thoroughly enjoy as much as some do with Wrothgar or IC. If they fail to deliver what you want, then I am certain you will make that decision for yourself, and move on when appropriate.