The Importance of Guild Skill Lines

Gidorick · January 2016

Like many other players, the lack of guild skill lines for the Thieves Guild and Dark Brotherhood concerns me greatly. If ESO were initially designed not with guild skills, but with the types of skill lines that can be seen in the other TES games, this wouldn’t be such an issue. The core TES games do not rely on guild skill sets for progression and guilds are largely narrative arcs players can choose to experience. Unfortunately, ESO’s design relies on skill sets which are not only vital to the development of gameplay mechanics but also serve the purpose of pushing the narrative of each character forward. Without them, the character doesn’t develop in meaningful ways.

The Guild Skills lines is one of the core components of the Fighter’s and Mage’s Guild. Once a player completes a guild narrative, they come out of the experience with a set of new tools at their disposal. They are better for having gone through those quests and they can take skills they learned with them on future adventures. These skills, while combat focused, offer more to the character than a few fighting moves. They offer narrative development for that character and they offer a greater diversity of builds.

Without a set of skills to accompany the DLC content, players are left with the narrative alone to develop their character . While this, in and of itself, is not a bad thing, it leaves me concerned for the long term-development of ESO, the future of Guilds, and long-term player satisfaction. As I mentioned in my thread about Designing ESO for those who don’t pay, not including Skill lines for guilds stifles character progression but this doesn’t need to be the case.

The reason ZOS has given for why they are not adding guild skill lines with the upcoming DLCs is because of imbalance in the current skillsets. While the current Guild skills are pretty squarely focused on combat, it is not imperative that future guild skills be combat-centric. Especially when considering many of the other Guilds of Tamriel do NOT involve combat related ideologies. I Discuss the Guilds Act HERE, I also play with the idea of non direct-combat guilds skills with a concept for the Courier's Guild.

What Thieves Guild Skills could do:
Thieving skills should be a natural progression of concepts of the legerdemain. All players can to learn to be better thieves and can become quite adept at reliving the burden of those who find themselves with too many possessions. However, only those in the Thieves Guild are able to refine their skills to the point of perfection. A member of the Thieves Guild isn’t just a criminal, they’re an artist.

Active skills could enhance the ability of players to successfully rob and steal their way to infamy. One skill could enable players to completely vanish (in a cloud of smoke?) if they are a certain distance from a pursuing guard. This skill would ONLY be able to be activated while the players is being pursued by guards (it would have also been Enforcers but... well.. you know.

). Perhaps another skill allows players to pickpocket guards specifically as the player passes them. This would be a different type of pickpocketing that is more like the ability some real-world thieves have where they bump into their target and pilfer their goods on the go. This pickpocket mechanic could be an AOE timer of sorts where the player needs to be moving THROUGH a certain highlighted spot near the guard within the time provided. The skill activation could be what triggers the highlighted spots. Perhaps an active skill that allows a player to blackjack and knock out NPCS (only) to steal their goods might be a good skill to have.

Since guild skills so far (all 2 of them) have included skills from the Speechcraft skillset, I think a Fence passive skill would be a good addition with the Thieves Guild Skill Line. This skill would allow players to attempt to fence items at any merchant. Unlike the Intimidate and Persuade skills from the Fighter's guild and Mage's guild, respectively, the Fence skill should be a CHANCE to fence that can be upgraded with subsequent levels. If Fence is unsuccessful the merchant calls the guard and the player must try to escape.

Other passives could include skills that gives players a chance of being shrugged off by an NPC that finds them while they are hiding or thieving. So someone with this skill could be caught stealing but could possibly not incur a bounty or heat.

The Thieves Guild Skills could be upgraded via Special randomized thievery objectives in EVERY zone of Tamriel. As the player runs around Tamriel they will “sense” there is a good score nearby and a glowing golden lockbox will appear. A passive skill could increase the radius of detection for these special lockboxes. The player could earn the XP for unlocking the box and getting away undetected. This would allow players who have NOT purchased the Thieves Guild DLC to rank up and benefit from the skill line.

Speaking of Thieves guilds… I could completely see there being a Thieves Guild Hall somewhere in the DLC. Perhaps where Gray Fox is located and then all of the Outlaw dens could act at Thieves Guild halls around Tamriel. At least one den in each zone should have a Thieves Guild representative that can serve as the thieves guild contact. Perhaps those who own the DLC can access this Thieves Guild rep and get thieving contracts. This would also level up the Thieves Guild quest skill line but, as mentioned before, wouldn’t be the ONLY way to level up the quest line.

What Dark Brotherhood Guild Skills could do:
I hate to say it, but some of the Dark Brotherhood Skills could just be skills that are "repurposed" from the Assassins Creed Franchise. These skills would have the sole purpose of enhancing player assignation abilities. Perhaps a hidden blade skill that acts similarly to pickpocket that could kill an NPC without incurring a bounty. I could see some skills having the requirement of being hidden prior to their activation. A long range dart or knife throw ability that keeps the player hidden could be one. A long range jump sneak attack similar to the dragon leap could be another assassin move.

All of these could be only used against NPCs, eliminating the idea of them being unfair in PVP. Using these skills against another player could very well be seen as going against the five tenets, which is an interesting justification for there not being open world PVP.

Passive skills could be things like boosted regen rates while still and hidden. There could be a skill that allows a player to "hide" in plain sight as long as they are walking at the slowest speed and not interacting with anything.

The Dark Brotherhood Speechcraft skill could allows players a chance to bribe the Guard or NPC that catches them in a nefarious act to ignore them. It could also allow players in good legal standing to try to pay any guard to ignore them for a set period of time. During this time, the player could act without being “noticed”. The higher the skill level the greater the chance of a successful bribery price and the longer the anonymity duration. Failure results in increased heat but not a bounty.

I could even see there being a passive that gives the player a chance to instant resurrection from Sithis when they die. There is a pretty wide range of possible skills.

Leveling the Dark Brotherhood skill line would involve receiving messages from the brotherhood via mail (or courier as outlined in my Courier's Guild Concept) that contain the names of assassination targets with the zone and the city they are in. Killing the targets and getting away clean would grant XP toward the guild skill line.

Overall, the point is the guild skills being added for Thieves Guild and Dark Brotherhood would not have to be skills that unbalance the current state of play. They could be relatively self contained and could offer skills for non-direct combat gameplay. The other option would be for ZOS to release the skill lines for free and just have it so that the skills help with the narrative of the DLC.

Without skill lines such as these, that the Thieves Guild and the Dark Brotherhood are going to feel incomplete. To me, it's akin to releasing a narrative story that has no voice acting. In ESO, Guilds have skill lines... that's the design.

Now, many of these thoughts are based on speculation because we have yet to see exactly what content is included with the Thieves Guild and Dark Brotherhood. If the DLC has players joining the Thieves Guild and Dark Brotherhood, then one would hope that ZOS has plans to release Thieves Guild and Dark Brotherhood Guild Skills to all players at some point in the future. While this wouldn’t be ideal, it would be preferable to never getting these Guild Skill lines.

So what do you think? Do you think Guild Skills are important? Is there a way include them that wouldn't be pay to win?

Volkodav · January 2016

Thieves have the Legerdemain line.

dodgehopper_ESO · January 2016

DB = Poisons... maybe shuriken

Well that's what I was expecting anyway.

I was hoping that TG would offer some more thieves tricks. Something like Blinding Powder, and another form of cloak (after all everyone can get purge from alliance skill line).

Gonza · January 2016

Guild Mages and Fighters Guild are important? If they a skill line it wont be more powerful that these skills.

Never in this game has been pay to win, what do you think they will add it now?

Scared about a p2w skill line that doesnt exist. Dont spread the fear about nothing.

khele23eb17_ESO · January 2016

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

DB = Poisons... maybe shuriken

Well that's what I was expecting anyway.

I was hoping that TG would offer some more thieves tricks. Something like Blinding Powder, and another form of cloak (after all everyone can get purge from alliance skill line).

TG could also have a stealth detection skill.

Aeladiir · January 2016

Volkodav wrote: »

Thieves have the Legerdemain line.

You're correct. Thieves have the Legerdemain line. Thieves. Thieves guild? Not so much.

Spottswoode · January 2016

Making them available and grindable to all players irrespective of their DLC purchases or subscription is a good start to avoid p2w.

SirCritical · January 2016

Another thread in which I can repeat my "demand": we need TG dailies

TheShadowScout · January 2016

Gidorick wrote: »

The reason ZOS has given for why they are not adding guild skill lines with the upcoming DLCs is because of imbalance in the current skillsets. While the current Guild skills are pretty squarely focused on combat, it is not imperative that future guild skills be combat-centric.

Agreed. There could be entirely convinience and non-combat skill lines all around, just to make the game better and more interesting for everyone (except PvPlayers I expect, they would just ignore those skills and do their usual whining about how the game "needs to be fixed, classes nerfed/buffed and lag eliminated")

Gidorick wrote: »

What Thieves Guild Skills could do:

Thieves guild skills would be a great place to start with stuff thats only usable in stealing and not in combat.
Active skills might include...
...something to distract roaming NPCs (not guards like the ones who keep an eye on things in the bank though - its their job to not let themselves be easily distracted) so you can burglar that lockbox they are wandering around without being spotted.
...a spell that costs a lot of magica, but has a chance to open a door or treasure chest lock (depending on lock quality and object - a strongbox should be harder then a treasure chest, a chest harder then a apartment door...) for those who forgot their lockpicks.
...a spell that gives you a "don't notice me" aura which makes pickpocketing more likely to succeed, or possibly an "out of stealth pickpocketing" (as described, bumping into someone, making your apologies and hopefully delaying their notice of their missing purse until you get a headstart)
...a toggle that increases your stealth capabilities (better sneak speed, lower sneak cost, harder to detect) at the expense of your sneak attack bonus (to make it quite useless for gankings)
...as mentioned, a "vanish/disguise" spell that can be used to break off guard pursuit if you manage to get a certain distance from them, or maybe not depending on distance, but with a chance to fail depending on your bounty (they might not put too much effort into chasing down someone who stole an apple, but would pursue that infamour outlaw with the huge price on their head way more seriously...)

Passives might include...
...the mendioned speechcraft passive that gives you a chance to convince normal vendors to buy -one- stolen object (with a bounty if failed, as described)
...a speechcraft passive that allows you try and to "bribe" a guard to let you go without confiscating your ill-gotten goods (for when you get nabbed -just- as you snatched that imperial motiv...)
...passives that give a chance not to recieve a bouty when spotted stealing, or to lessen that bounty
...passives that increase chances for chance-depending TG skills, or reduce costs...
...passives that unlock more interesting thievery quests (like the fighters guild cyrodil bounty, requiring more then sneak and grab to complete - at least a combination of thievery, like, pickpocket key first, sneak past guards, distract servant, steal & wear disguise, complete miniquest to deal with final watchdog, escape)

Gidorick wrote: »

What Dark Brotherhood Guild Skills could do:

Dark Brotherhood would likely have to have combat-oriented skills, but I love the idea of them only being somehow not all that applicable in PvP. Just making players immune (citing "vestige" status) might be plausible!
Those skills might include...
...definitely something to deal with NPCs from stealth. But we already have an insta-kill mechanic (if their HP are low enough), so how about a snooze mechanic instead? Sneak up with that alchemy-soaked hanky, and knock them out with a big dose of medieval-magical chloroform so you can take pride in only killing your designated target, and not the poor schmucks just standing guard?
...possibly a toggle that allows some illusion disguise as "completely harmless" (visuals depending on surroundings, same mechanics like any other disguise - sentries looking through it, combat breaking it, etc.; in PvP you'd still have your "faction" designator so it'd be useless)
...maybe even some area-feature disguise skill that is proof against spotted by sentries, but requires you to stand still or it will break? To navigate guards, letting them pass you by while you play scrub or wall hanging
...perhaps some "escape" skill invloving throwing a smoke bomb and doing a short-range teleport that will break a pursuing guards aggro for a few seconds, allowing you a chance to enter stealth and get away
...possibly an skill that coats your weapons with an special extremely virulent poison (which for some reason just happens not to work on vestiges) for the next attack only allowing you to do one strike worth of poison damage (effectively a double damage attack for those assassinations where its doubtful you might get a second shot)

Passives...
...should really include a "this doesn't concern you, walk away..." skill that gives a chance for a single witness to be scared witless by a dangerous looking assassin and keeping their mouth shut when they see an assassination happening as to not become collateral damage
...might include some in-stealth regen boosts. Not entirely useless for PvP, but... not that big a deal in combat either.
...passives that reduce the bounty for being spotted doing your killings
...a passive that unlocks more interesting targets (like fighters guild cyrodil bounties, requiring more then sneak and stab to complete, stuff involving learning where your target might be, using mutliple disguises, dealing with guards, getting to the intercept location, perhaps even killing in one specific way - poison in a cup, arrow in the dark, cutting off the head and placing it in their lords bed...)

Gidorick wrote: »

Without skill lines such as these, that the Thieves Guild and the Dark Brotherhood are going to feel incomplete. To me, it's akin to releasing a narrative story that has no voice acting. In ESO, Guilds have skill lines... that's the design.

Now, many of these thoughts are based on speculation because we have yet to see exactly what content is included with the Thieves Guild and Dark Brotherhood. If the DLC has players joining the Thieves Guild and Dark Brotherhood, then one would hope that ZOS has plans to release Thieves Guild and Dark Brotherhood Guild Skills to all players at some point in the future. While this wouldn’t be ideal, it would be preferable to never getting these Guild Skill lines.

Agreed!

Spottswoode wrote: »

Making them available and grindable to all players irrespective of their DLC purchases or subscription is a good start to avoid p2w.

Indeed. They could very easily add a skill line for -everyone- who joins these guilds, putting the "joiner" quest into non-DLC regions... and then let people slowly raise their guild skill through thievery/assassination dailies... but... give an extra big hepling of guild advancement to those who buy the DLC and play through the guild story.
Meaning everyone can get there in time, the ones who go for the DLC just get extra advancement for playing through the guild story. Some people will still cry PtW, but in effects its not unlike crown XP boost scrolls...

ShadowHvo · January 2016

Beautifully worded, and I absolutely agree. Skill-lines is a core aspect of the guilds in eso, it allows us, the players to identify ourselves and actually feel as a part of a bigger canon organization.

I desperately hope that Zenimax will retract this idea of no new skill-lines, and give us a skill-line for both the Thieves Guild and the Dark Brotherhood. Especially considering they said from the very beta that both will come, and have the same representation similar to the Fighters Guild and Mages Guild.

NBrookus · January 2016

ShadowHvo wrote: »

I desperately hope that Zenimax will retract this idea of no new skill-lines, and give us a skill-line for both the Thieves Guild and the Dark Brotherhood. Especially considering they said from the very beta that both will come, and have the same representation similar to the Fighters Guild and Mages Guild.

It's probably way too late to put in a skill line for TG DLC.

Gidorick · January 2016

NBrookus wrote: »

ShadowHvo wrote: »

I desperately hope that Zenimax will retract this idea of no new skill-lines, and give us a skill-line for both the Thieves Guild and the Dark Brotherhood. Especially considering they said from the very beta that both will come, and have the same representation similar to the Fighters Guild and Mages Guild.

It's probably way too late to put in a skill line for TG DLC.

I would be VERY surprised if they don't have one already finished... but just took it out because... #Reasons.

Enodoc · January 2016

I watched ESO Live but I must have missed that bit about no skill lines for TG and DB. What exactly did they say?

petraeus1 · January 2016

Enodoc wrote: »

I watched ESO Live but I must have missed that bit about no skill lines for TG and DB. What exactly did they say?

To a question about new skill lines in general, Matt said (my paraphrasing): we wanna, but not now, get what's in-game at the moment right first (in terms of balance and performance), before adding potential complicating additions.

dday3six · January 2016

petraeus1 wrote: »

Enodoc wrote: »

I watched ESO Live but I must have missed that bit about no skill lines for TG and DB. What exactly did they say?

To a question about new skill lines in general, Matt said (my paraphrasing): we wanna, but not now, get what's in-game at the moment right first (in terms of balance and performance), before adding potential complicating additions.

Honestly, I think that's the proper approach. There's so much that needs to be fixed already. It was one of the better answers, really. It made sense, and didn't involve "no ETA". Part of me even thinks delaying DLC all together so ZOS can concentrate on only fixing the mountain of issues ESO has, might be for the best.

Gidorick · January 2016

dday3six wrote: »

petraeus1 wrote: »

Enodoc wrote: »

I watched ESO Live but I must have missed that bit about no skill lines for TG and DB. What exactly did they say?

To a question about new skill lines in general, Matt said (my paraphrasing): we wanna, but not now, get what's in-game at the moment right first (in terms of balance and performance), before adding potential complicating additions.

Honestly, I think that's the proper approach. There's so much that needs to be fixed already. It was one of the better answers, really. It made sense, and didn't involve "no ETA". Part of me even thinks delaying DLC all together so ZOS can concentrate on only fixing the mountain of issues ESO has, might be for the best.

Then, really, they should have planned to release another DLC. The Justice System pvp announcement hasn't exactly instilled confidence in their ability to "figure things out" to the point they feel they can release more complex content.

And this is what? The THIRD DLC and they're already starting to cut things out to keep on schedule because otherwise they'd break the game? That's not good.

petraeus1 · January 2016

Gidorick wrote: »

dday3six wrote: »

petraeus1 wrote: »

Enodoc wrote: »

I watched ESO Live but I must have missed that bit about no skill lines for TG and DB. What exactly did they say?

To a question about new skill lines in general, Matt said (my paraphrasing): we wanna, but not now, get what's in-game at the moment right first (in terms of balance and performance), before adding potential complicating additions.

Honestly, I think that's the proper approach. There's so much that needs to be fixed already. It was one of the better answers, really. It made sense, and didn't involve "no ETA". Part of me even thinks delaying DLC all together so ZOS can concentrate on only fixing the mountain of issues ESO has, might be for the best.

Then, really, they should have planned to release another DLC. The Justice System pvp announcement hasn't exactly instilled confidence in their ability to "figure things out" to the point they feel they can release more complex content.

And this is what? The THIRD DLC and they're already starting to cut things out to keep on schedule because otherwise they'd break the game? That's not good.

They can still add the skill lines to both guilds later. When you listened to Brian about what they're doing to improve performance, this decision makes sense. They're going over every ability, assessing their serverload and changing where they ask resources from. Obviously they want to assess the effects of this effort. Same goes for balance. Adding new skills clouds whatever analysis/evaluation they might wanna make after their efforts. Also they probably want to take lessons learned (after said analysis/evaluation) into consideration when designing and implementing new skill lines (both in terms of performance and balance). It'll be for the best in the end.

dday3six · January 2016

Gidorick wrote: »

dday3six wrote: »

petraeus1 wrote: »

Enodoc wrote: »

I watched ESO Live but I must have missed that bit about no skill lines for TG and DB. What exactly did they say?

To a question about new skill lines in general, Matt said (my paraphrasing): we wanna, but not now, get what's in-game at the moment right first (in terms of balance and performance), before adding potential complicating additions.

Honestly, I think that's the proper approach. There's so much that needs to be fixed already. It was one of the better answers, really. It made sense, and didn't involve "no ETA". Part of me even thinks delaying DLC all together so ZOS can concentrate on only fixing the mountain of issues ESO has, might be for the best.

Then, really, they should have planned to release another DLC. The Justice System pvp announcement hasn't exactly instilled confidence in their ability to "figure things out" to the point they feel they can release more complex content.

And this is what? The THIRD DLC and they're already starting to cut things out to keep on schedule because otherwise they'd break the game? That's not good.

So you think adding another layer to PVP, when balance there is a mess and the lag is awful, would've been a wise move? I don't have a lot of faith in ZOS. However credit where credit is due for not digging the hole deeper.

Gidorick · January 2016

The point is @petraeus1 & @dday3six they are releasing this content (Thieves Guild and Dark Brotherhood) incomplete.

Why should we buy content from which they are admittedly removing features? Because they are going to "add them later"? Why should anyone believe that?

I'll consider buying the Thieves Guild and Dark Brotherhood DLC when they release the "rest" of the content. IF that ever happens.

olsborg · January 2016

ESO would get better (imo) if all skills and passives was put under skill lines, like TES games. Destruction, Restoration, Block, Blade etc etc. A classless open character system, there would be no balance issues. People could truely play as they wanted.

dday3six · January 2016

Gidorick wrote: »

The point is @petraeus1 & @dday3six they are releasing this content (Thieves Guild and Dark Brotherhood) incomplete.

Why should we buy content from which they are admittedly removing features? Because they are going to "add them later"? Why should anyone believe that?

I'll consider buying the Thieves Guild and Dark Brotherhood DLC when they release the "rest" of the content. IF that ever happens.

You're presenting what your perception of 'incomplete' for this instance is. It's your opinion, and not everyone will share it.

olsborg wrote: »

ESO would get better (imo) if all skills and passives was put under skill lines, like TES games. Destruction, Restoration, Block, Blade etc etc. A classless open character system, there would be no balance issues. People could truely play as they wanted.

There'd be plenty of balance issues because players would have even more options to haphazardly slap non-synergistic skills together, call it a build, and then complain that it is not supported.

Gidorick · January 2016

TheShadowScout wrote: »

Gidorick wrote: »

The reason ZOS has given for why they are not adding guild skill lines with the upcoming DLCs is because of imbalance in the current skillsets. While the current Guild skills are pretty squarely focused on combat, it is not imperative that future guild skills be combat-centric.

Agreed. There could be entirely convinience and non-combat skill lines all around, just to make the game better and more interesting for everyone (except PvPlayers I expect, they would just ignore those skills and do their usual whining about how the game "needs to be fixed, classes nerfed/buffed and lag eliminated")

Gidorick wrote: »

What Thieves Guild Skills could do:

Thieves guild skills would be a great place to start with stuff thats only usable in stealing and not in combat.
Active skills might include...
...something to distract roaming NPCs (not guards like the ones who keep an eye on things in the bank though - its their job to not let themselves be easily distracted) so you can burglar that lockbox they are wandering around without being spotted.
...a spell that costs a lot of magica, but has a chance to open a door or treasure chest lock (depending on lock quality and object - a strongbox should be harder then a treasure chest, a chest harder then a apartment door...) for those who forgot their lockpicks.
...a spell that gives you a "don't notice me" aura which makes pickpocketing more likely to succeed, or possibly an "out of stealth pickpocketing" (as described, bumping into someone, making your apologies and hopefully delaying their notice of their missing purse until you get a headstart)
...a toggle that increases your stealth capabilities (better sneak speed, lower sneak cost, harder to detect) at the expense of your sneak attack bonus (to make it quite useless for gankings)
...as mentioned, a "vanish/disguise" spell that can be used to break off guard pursuit if you manage to get a certain distance from them, or maybe not depending on distance, but with a chance to fail depending on your bounty (they might not put too much effort into chasing down someone who stole an apple, but would pursue that infamour outlaw with the huge price on their head way more seriously...)

Passives might include...
...the mendioned speechcraft passive that gives you a chance to convince normal vendors to buy -one- stolen object (with a bounty if failed, as described)
...a speechcraft passive that allows you try and to "bribe" a guard to let you go without confiscating your ill-gotten goods (for when you get nabbed -just- as you snatched that imperial motiv...)
...passives that give a chance not to recieve a bouty when spotted stealing, or to lessen that bounty
...passives that increase chances for chance-depending TG skills, or reduce costs...
...passives that unlock more interesting thievery quests (like the fighters guild cyrodil bounty, requiring more then sneak and grab to complete - at least a combination of thievery, like, pickpocket key first, sneak past guards, distract servant, steal & wear disguise, complete miniquest to deal with final watchdog, escape)

Gidorick wrote: »

What Dark Brotherhood Guild Skills could do:

Dark Brotherhood would likely have to have combat-oriented skills, but I love the idea of them only being somehow not all that applicable in PvP. Just making players immune (citing "vestige" status) might be plausible!
Those skills might include...
...definitely something to deal with NPCs from stealth. But we already have an insta-kill mechanic (if their HP are low enough), so how about a snooze mechanic instead? Sneak up with that alchemy-soaked hanky, and knock them out with a big dose of medieval-magical chloroform so you can take pride in only killing your designated target, and not the poor schmucks just standing guard?
...possibly a toggle that allows some illusion disguise as "completely harmless" (visuals depending on surroundings, same mechanics like any other disguise - sentries looking through it, combat breaking it, etc.; in PvP you'd still have your "faction" designator so it'd be useless)
...maybe even some area-feature disguise skill that is proof against spotted by sentries, but requires you to stand still or it will break? To navigate guards, letting them pass you by while you play scrub or wall hanging
...perhaps some "escape" skill invloving throwing a smoke bomb and doing a short-range teleport that will break a pursuing guards aggro for a few seconds, allowing you a chance to enter stealth and get away
...possibly an skill that coats your weapons with an special extremely virulent poison (which for some reason just happens not to work on vestiges) for the next attack only allowing you to do one strike worth of poison damage (effectively a double damage attack for those assassinations where its doubtful you might get a second shot)

Passives...
...should really include a "this doesn't concern you, walk away..." skill that gives a chance for a single witness to be scared witless by a dangerous looking assassin and keeping their mouth shut when they see an assassination happening as to not become collateral damage
...might include some in-stealth regen boosts. Not entirely useless for PvP, but... not that big a deal in combat either.
...passives that reduce the bounty for being spotted doing your killings
...a passive that unlocks more interesting targets (like fighters guild cyrodil bounties, requiring more then sneak and stab to complete, stuff involving learning where your target might be, using mutliple disguises, dealing with guards, getting to the intercept location, perhaps even killing in one specific way - poison in a cup, arrow in the dark, cutting off the head and placing it in their lords bed...)

Gidorick wrote: »

Without skill lines such as these, that the Thieves Guild and the Dark Brotherhood are going to feel incomplete. To me, it's akin to releasing a narrative story that has no voice acting. In ESO, Guilds have skill lines... that's the design.

Now, many of these thoughts are based on speculation because we have yet to see exactly what content is included with the Thieves Guild and Dark Brotherhood. If the DLC has players joining the Thieves Guild and Dark Brotherhood, then one would hope that ZOS has plans to release Thieves Guild and Dark Brotherhood Guild Skills to all players at some point in the future. While this wouldn’t be ideal, it would be preferable to never getting these Guild Skill lines.

Agreed!

Spottswoode wrote: »

Making them available and grindable to all players irrespective of their DLC purchases or subscription is a good start to avoid p2w.

Indeed. They could very easily add a skill line for -everyone- who joins these guilds, putting the "joiner" quest into non-DLC regions... and then let people slowly raise their guild skill through thievery/assassination dailies... but... give an extra big hepling of guild advancement to those who buy the DLC and play through the guild story.
Meaning everyone can get there in time, the ones who go for the DLC just get extra advancement for playing through the guild story. Some people will still cry PtW, but in effects its not unlike crown XP boost scrolls...

Awesome ideas here @TheShadowScout ! The last part here is what I hope ZOS eventually does... add the guild skills for all players and those who have the DLC will just be able to experience more with it. That just makes me want to wait for the skill lines to buy the DLC.

Your skill idea...

TheShadowScout wrote:

...something to distract roaming NPCs (not guards like the ones who keep an eye on things in the bank though - its their job to not let themselves be easily distracted) so you can burglar that lockbox they are wandering around without being spotted.

would be PERFECT for a prostitute skill line. One of the skills ideas I had for that was "allure" which would get an NPC or guard to follow you. This "Public Exposure" skill would fit in really well with the concept of a support prostitutes skill line.

Gidorick · January 2016

dday3six wrote: »

Gidorick wrote: »

The point is @petraeus1 & @dday3six they are releasing this content (Thieves Guild and Dark Brotherhood) incomplete.

Why should we buy content from which they are admittedly removing features? Because they are going to "add them later"? Why should anyone believe that?

I'll consider buying the Thieves Guild and Dark Brotherhood DLC when they release the "rest" of the content. IF that ever happens.

You're presenting what your perception of 'incomplete' for this instance is. It's your opinion, and not everyone will share it.

You're right @dday3six , this is an opinion... based on how ZOS has set up their game. In-Game Guilds have skill lines. I don't think that's unreasonable for a player to expect new guilds to include their own skill lines.

dday3six · January 2016

.

Gidorick wrote: »

dday3six wrote: »

Gidorick wrote: »

The point is @petraeus1 & @dday3six they are releasing this content (Thieves Guild and Dark Brotherhood) incomplete.

Why should we buy content from which they are admittedly removing features? Because they are going to "add them later"? Why should anyone believe that?

I'll consider buying the Thieves Guild and Dark Brotherhood DLC when they release the "rest" of the content. IF that ever happens.

You're presenting what your perception of 'incomplete' for this instance is. It's your opinion, and not everyone will share it.

You're right @dday3six , this is an opinion... based on how ZOS has set up their game. In-Game Guilds have skill lines. I don't think that's unreasonable for a player to expect new guilds to include their own skill lines.

What if you can't actually join either guild? Which is how the skill lines are unlocked currently. What if you only help them, and as a result are exposed to their backstory. What if the game...huh...changes?

You seem to think that the base game established a pattern, and it's inconceivable to break that pattern. I think ultimately you have an issue with a need for familiarity and patterns. You have a plan, and any deviation bothers you.

petraeus1 · January 2016

Gidorick wrote: »

The point is @petraeus1 & @dday3six they are releasing this content (Thieves Guild and Dark Brotherhood) incomplete.

Why should we buy content from which they are admittedly removing features? Because they are going to "add them later"? Why should anyone believe that?

I'll consider buying the Thieves Guild and Dark Brotherhood DLC when they release the "rest" of the content. IF that ever happens.

I don't feel like its incomplete. The only reason to see it that way, is to generalize from the Fighters' and Mages' Guilds that all in-game guilds have skill lines. Given that they're the only two guilds in the game, I feel like this is hardly a fair extrapolation. ZOS set up a precedent, nothing more. It's like saying: all new zones should have a public dungeon. Or: all DLC should be in DC territory (given Wrothgar and Hew's Bay are in DC territory). Whereas ZOS never said such a thing. But hey Gidorick, don't spend money you don't want to part ways with.

Gidorick · January 2016

dday3six wrote: »

.

Gidorick wrote: »

dday3six wrote: »

Gidorick wrote: »

The point is @petraeus1 & @dday3six they are releasing this content (Thieves Guild and Dark Brotherhood) incomplete.

Why should we buy content from which they are admittedly removing features? Because they are going to "add them later"? Why should anyone believe that?

I'll consider buying the Thieves Guild and Dark Brotherhood DLC when they release the "rest" of the content. IF that ever happens.

You're presenting what your perception of 'incomplete' for this instance is. It's your opinion, and not everyone will share it.

You're right @dday3six , this is an opinion... based on how ZOS has set up their game. In-Game Guilds have skill lines. I don't think that's unreasonable for a player to expect new guilds to include their own skill lines.

What if you can't actually join either guild? Which is how the skill lines are unlocked currently. What if you only help them, and as a result are exposed to their backstory. What if the game...huh...changes?

You seem to think that the base game established a pattern, and it's inconceivable to break that pattern. I think ultimately you have an issue with a need for familiarity and patterns. You have a plan, and any deviation bothers you.

In the original post I said

If the DLC has players joining the Thieves Guild and Dark Brotherhood, then one would hope that ZOS has plans to release Thieves Guild and Dark Brotherhood Guild Skills to all players at some point in the future.

So... I recognize that we might not join the guilds. The entire point of the OP is that if players are joining the guilds, we need skill lines, and those skill lines don't have to be combat skill lines. It's not a pattern... its how this "world" has been established.

Actually... suggesting the skill lines be non-combat skill lines is breaking the "pattern" of guild skills being combat skills.

Your attempt at belittling me falls flat.

Gidorick · January 2016

petraeus1 wrote: »

Gidorick wrote: »

The point is @petraeus1 & @dday3six they are releasing this content (Thieves Guild and Dark Brotherhood) incomplete.

Why should we buy content from which they are admittedly removing features? Because they are going to "add them later"? Why should anyone believe that?

I'll consider buying the Thieves Guild and Dark Brotherhood DLC when they release the "rest" of the content. IF that ever happens.

I don't feel like its incomplete. The only reason to see it that way, is to generalize from the Fighters' and Mages' Guilds that all in-game guilds have skill lines. Given that they're the only two guilds in the game, I feel like this is hardly a fair extrapolation. ZOS set up a precedent, nothing more. It's like saying: all new zones should have a public dungeon. Or: all DLC should be in DC territory (given Wrothgar and Hew's Bay are in DC territory). Whereas ZOS never said such a thing. But hey Gidorick, don't spend money you don't want to part ways with.

But ZOS recognizes this precedent by announcing that they are not going to release the skill lines with the DLC @petraeus1 . The way ZOS is handling them it appears as if they are holding back the skill lines because of balancing issues... am I wrong about this? They insinuated that they may add them later, right?

petraeus1 · January 2016

Gidorick wrote: »

petraeus1 wrote: »

Gidorick wrote: »

The point is @petraeus1 & @dday3six they are releasing this content (Thieves Guild and Dark Brotherhood) incomplete.

Why should we buy content from which they are admittedly removing features? Because they are going to "add them later"? Why should anyone believe that?

I'll consider buying the Thieves Guild and Dark Brotherhood DLC when they release the "rest" of the content. IF that ever happens.

I don't feel like its incomplete. The only reason to see it that way, is to generalize from the Fighters' and Mages' Guilds that all in-game guilds have skill lines. Given that they're the only two guilds in the game, I feel like this is hardly a fair extrapolation. ZOS set up a precedent, nothing more. It's like saying: all new zones should have a public dungeon. Or: all DLC should be in DC territory (given Wrothgar and Hew's Bay are in DC territory). Whereas ZOS never said such a thing. But hey Gidorick, don't spend money you don't want to part ways with.

But ZOS recognizes this precedent by announcing that they are not going to release the skill lines with the DLC @petraeus1 . The way ZOS is handling them it appears as if they are holding back the skill lines because of balancing issues... am I wrong about this? They insinuated that they may add them later, right?

Afaik they didn't say anything about TG and DB specific, they answered a question that was like: 'Will we ever see new skill lines?' To which Matt replied: yes, but not soon, because performance/balance issues we wanna solve first, then slowly add to that so it stays manageable and easy to pinpoint should problems pop up. I don't recall they ever specifically used the words skill line in conjunction with either DLC. Matt might as well have referred to Spellcrafting skill lines.

Gidorick · January 2016

petraeus1 wrote: »

Gidorick wrote: »

petraeus1 wrote: »

Gidorick wrote: »

The point is @petraeus1 & @dday3six they are releasing this content (Thieves Guild and Dark Brotherhood) incomplete.

Why should we buy content from which they are admittedly removing features? Because they are going to "add them later"? Why should anyone believe that?

I'll consider buying the Thieves Guild and Dark Brotherhood DLC when they release the "rest" of the content. IF that ever happens.

I don't feel like its incomplete. The only reason to see it that way, is to generalize from the Fighters' and Mages' Guilds that all in-game guilds have skill lines. Given that they're the only two guilds in the game, I feel like this is hardly a fair extrapolation. ZOS set up a precedent, nothing more. It's like saying: all new zones should have a public dungeon. Or: all DLC should be in DC territory (given Wrothgar and Hew's Bay are in DC territory). Whereas ZOS never said such a thing. But hey Gidorick, don't spend money you don't want to part ways with.

But ZOS recognizes this precedent by announcing that they are not going to release the skill lines with the DLC @petraeus1 . The way ZOS is handling them it appears as if they are holding back the skill lines because of balancing issues... am I wrong about this? They insinuated that they may add them later, right?

Afaik they didn't say anything about TG and DB specific, they answered a question that was like: 'Will we ever see new skill lines?' To which Matt replied: yes, but not soon, because performance/balance issues we wanna solve first, then slowly add to that so it stays manageable and easy to pinpoint should problems pop up. I don't recall they ever specifically used the words skill line in conjunction with either DLC. Matt might as well have referred to Spellcrafting skill lines.

Ah.. ok. Then just consider My OP my opinion and response to the possibility that the Thieves Guilds and Dark Brotherhood not having Guild Skills... A "pattern or precedent" I personally feel ZOS has established with the Fighter's Guild and Mage's Guild.

Which... is what it was always presented as.

Enodoc · January 2016

petraeus1 wrote: »

Enodoc wrote: »

I watched ESO Live but I must have missed that bit about no skill lines for TG and DB. What exactly did they say?

To a question about new skill lines in general, Matt said (my paraphrasing): we wanna, but not now, get what's in-game at the moment right first (in terms of balance and performance), before adding potential complicating additions.

Ah OK, so they didn't say specifically that TG and DB weren't getting skill lines, they said that generally, there will be no new skill lines for a while. That's fair, I can see how that leads to the stated inference of no TG and DB skill lines. Thanks!

TheShadowScout · January 2016

Gidorick wrote: »

The last part here is what I hope ZOS eventually does... add the guild skills for all players and those who have the DLC will just be able to experience more with it. That just makes me want to wait for the skill lines to buy the DLC.

Yeah, I think "normal for everyone, bonus for those who shell out for the DLC" would be a very good idea to handle -everything- they might want to add in the future. Reward those who suppoert ESO, but not in any way that all others can't get to as well (though at a slower pace)

Gidorick wrote: »

Your skill idea...

TheShadowScout wrote:

...something to distract roaming NPCs (not guards like the ones who keep an eye on things in the bank though - its their job to not let themselves be easily distracted) so you can burglar that lockbox they are wandering around without being spotted.

would be PERFECT for a prostitute skill line. One of the skills ideas I had for that was "allure" which would get an NPC or guard to follow you. This "Public Exposure" skill would fit in really well with the concept of a support prostitutes skill line.

I was thinking more of "throw some noisemaker into the far corner that's just enough to make people go check it out, yet not enough to put them on high alert" for thievery.

But I agree... it would be -awesome- to have a seduction-themed guild/world skill line, allowing for team crimes - the "nightflower" plays distraction, and the burglar robs them blind... distract passerbys enough for an 100% pickpocket chance... or keep roaming NPCs glued to your exposed... body parts the forums would likely just censor afgain if I were more specific... that one I would even want to affect bank guards.
Hmmm... perhaps even a "keep their attention on you without giving the game away" minigame while your partner lockpicks the stronbox... might be too much detail, but I for one would looove more minigames!

BtW, minigames... can we haz magical locks/barriers/whatever that require a different minigame to pass? Or different minigameS, plural. One magical barrier you gotta play the magical minigame, another barrier you need to find the correct password, etc.

I am also a bit sad that we don't have "secret doors" in ESO, well, at least not outside from quest-plot-specific ones. Would be so cool if there were doors hidden in plain sight that might lead to dungeon areas not on the map... shortcuts or hidden vaults... and then a TG toggle or passive that highlights them...

dday3six wrote: »

What if you can't actually join either guild?

...that would feel even more incomplete. For me anyhow. TG and DB memberships have been a high point in my TES character development since Morrowind!