Why do Vampires have a double negitive?

old_mufasa · January 2016

Why do vampires have a double negative vs werewolf's?

I tend to see 10x more werewolf's now then vampires as all the negative effects that vampires get saddled with just makes using it almost seem more like a liability in both pvp and pve...

25% more fire damage all the time (vamps) vs 25% disease damage when only in werewolf form... this is of course a big one as fire damage seems more common and you don't have the option to opt out of your vampirism when facing fire damage. Where as a werewolf player you just don't shape shift when fighting diseased damage type mobs.

I think this is the biggest disparity between the two as vamps are stuck all the time with taking more damage type that's a unavoidable vulnerability... now you would say well vampires get access to there 2 skills all the time and passives... and you would be right but...

Then vampires are saddled with a scaling hit on there health regen..... Why do they have this seconded negative?

This is what I don't understand.. fire is already much more of a issue then disease then stuck with a negative health regen. Why the double negative? Now I could understand maybe as your stages of vampirism you gained damage or even damage resistance but all you gain is cheaper vampire skills all 2 of them... but get smacked with a 75% reduction in health regen... this just doesn't seem balanced at all.

Now I get that werewolf's don't get anything while in non-werewolf form but they also have no negative effects while not in werewolf form.. so this is balanced out. While in werewolf form they get self heals, great regens, crowd control, debuff's and dps and damage resistance and ways to keep it extended to last longer and some great passives while in werewolf form... all the while not having to worry about having vulnerability's while not in werewolf form... so many positives compared to negatives.

When looking at vampire passives the only one that seems to be working.. maybe is the 10% stamina / magic regen and the movement speed buff while in stealth

The damage reduction by 30%/50% when under 30% life doesn't seem to work.. looking at the damage tickers on deaths I never ever ever seen the last tick of damage being reduced by 50% even from smaller damage attacks.. so my only guess is this passive is out right broken.. or just worthless.

Then take in to account vampire stages and feeding.. this one I find just more annoying then anything... Why cant we drain animals? why cant we stealth feed on non-enemy NPC's in towns... <--- this is a huge gripe to me. As long as you are not spotted by another npc you should be able to stealth feed on NPC's. Also stage one vampirism is way to short.. its should be backwards to the way it is.. hour for 1, 2 and 3 and 30 mins to get to 4.

Some changes taking into account the 24 hour vulnerability vampires are stuck with I would like to see.

1: Scaling fire vulnerability based off vampire stages and a reduction over all to it based on the 100% uptime of the debuff. I think a 15% stage 1 and 2, 20% stage 3, 25% stage 4 would be better and reward people for feeding.

2: A reduction of health regen negative or a look at the reduction passive as it doesn't seem to be working.

3: A physical damage reduction as you go up in vampire stages. such as no buff for stage 1 and 2, 5% for stage 3, 10% stage 4 symbolizing your desperation to get blood and shrugging off physical hits to get that blood.

4: Being able to feed on animals and stealth feed on non-enemy NPC's.. mainly a QOL and roleplaying change.

5: Fixing or adjusting the Undeath passive as it doesn't seem to be working at all.

It would also nice to have some more active skills... As for pvp.. Vamps are already getting slammed hard by fighter guild skills. so I think the above changes are not really that drastic on that end and will make vampirism a little less cumbersome on the PVE front.

What do you guys think? Are you happy with the current incarnation for vampires? or would like some changes to it as well?

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO · January 2016

Vampires are dying off cause it's to easy to kill buffs up Camouflaged Hunter, full heavy, Silver Lash (far more single target damage) pulling them in will kill them if not use any burst damage power.

Kevmeister · January 2016

You can have all that while us werewolves could stay for as long as we want without having to be in combat and feeding off corpse, have some passives that work outside of werewolf form aside from slotting it as our ultimate, and we'll have a deal.

DRXHarbinger · January 2016

^ agreed. WW should be a full time thing.

ralonasan · January 2016

The damage reduction doesn't work because all of the damage dealt to you registers before you get that low cause when you get insta rekt xD

TheShadowScout · January 2016

old_mufasa wrote: »

25% more fire damage all the time (vamps) vs 25% disease damage when only in werewolf form... this is of course a big one as fire damage seems more common and you don't have the option to opt out of your vampirism when facing fire damage. Where as a werewolf player you just don't shape shift when fighting diseased damage type mobs.

Well, strangely enough, vampires can use their vampy abilitiey ALL the time, and werewolves only in shifted form. And even worse, the poor part-time furries have to pay for that shiftyness with their ultimate ability!
Looking at the differences from that side, vampires seem to have it waaaaay better... no unfortunate fingertwitch that aborts the shift as it starts yet still wastes the ultimate. No enemy hitting at just the right time in shift-start to make it fizzle. No "now now" while you build up ulti to shift agaijn. Just bloodsuckers sucking blood, transforming into mist or calling bats, all the time (well, the bats only when they have the ulti, but still...).
Stands to reason they ought to have the drawback all the time too, yes?

old_mufasa wrote: »

Then vampires are saddled with a scaling hit on there health regen..... Why do they have this seconded negative?

Because... undead???
Have you taken a look at the vampires abilities lately? Have you noticed how half of them kinda are of the "lifestealing" variant?
Vampires are NOT supposed to heal on their own.
Vampires are supposed to drain life from their enemies to heal their wounds.
...
Works as intended. Nowadays anyhow.

Happy bloodsucking!

old_mufasa · January 2016

Kevmeister wrote: »

You can have all that while us werewolves could stay for as long as we want without having to be in combat and feeding off corpse, have some passives that work outside of werewolf form aside from slotting it as our ultimate, and we'll have a deal.

/facepalm....

Did you read my post I addressed this....

Werewolfs get to pick when there vulnerable... this makes them get the all bells and whistles when they needed and allows them to not have them active when they are facing mobs that would effect them...

Also Undeath doesn't work as a passive right now.

So you get a drain life and a damage reduction ablity that you cant get healed while using, faster stealth movement, 10% mana stam regen... vs 25% fire damage one of the most common damage types and massive hit to your health regen.. all the time never able to not get the 25% extra damage or negative health regen effect.....

Remember WW used to take desease damage 100% of the time... so ZOS even thought that debuff all the time was to much.... All i'm saying is for 100% uptime that the risk vs reward is out of balance.

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO · January 2016

Kevmeister wrote: »

You can have all that while us werewolves could stay for as long as we want without having to be in combat and feeding off corpse, have some passives that work outside of werewolf form aside from slotting it as our ultimate, and we'll have a deal.

I'm all for Werewolves getting some passives and a few powers in Human form but only if Figher Guild damage buffs work on the human form Wolves.

marvel_bound · January 2016

I think the negative effects should only apply in the daytime. It would be a little better plus it makes more sense.

old_mufasa · January 2016

TheShadowScout wrote: »

old_mufasa wrote: »

25% more fire damage all the time (vamps) vs 25% disease damage when only in werewolf form... this is of course a big one as fire damage seems more common and you don't have the option to opt out of your vampirism when facing fire damage. Where as a werewolf player you just don't shape shift when fighting diseased damage type mobs.

Well, strangely enough, vampires can use their vampy abilitiey ALL the time, and werewolves only in shifted form. And even worse, the poor part-time furries have to pay for that shiftyness with their ultimate ability!
Looking at the differences from that side, vampires seem to have it waaaaay better... no unfortunate fingertwitch that aborts the shift as it starts yet still wastes the ultimate. No enemy hitting at just the right time in shift-start to make it fizzle. No "now now" while you build up ulti to shift agaijn. Just bloodsuckers sucking blood, transforming into mist or calling bats, all the time (well, the bats only when they have the ulti, but still...).
Stands to reason they ought to have the drawback all the time too, yes?

old_mufasa wrote: »

Then vampires are saddled with a scaling hit on there health regen..... Why do they have this seconded negative?

Because... undead???
Have you taken a look at the vampires abilities lately? Have you noticed how half of them kinda are of the "lifestealing" variant?
Vampires are NOT supposed to heal on their own.
Vampires are supposed to drain life from their enemies to heal their wounds.
...
Works as intended. Nowadays anyhow.

Happy bloodsucking!

I have both werewolf and vampire and they are not balanced...Mist form is a out right joke.. when you could heal while in mist form it was .. well in pvp almost op but that was before 1 shot wonder bolts of the fighter guild skills.. So mist from is near pointless....

Wolf ultimate vs Vampire.. both have them so they cancel out... even though Wolf form last a hell of a lot longer.. and it should imo.

Most of what I said if you read it all were QOL changes...

Ya there undead so why Vamps not given a physical damage reduction passive that has 100% uptime.. I mean after all your undead cuts and bruises should not really effect you unless you get your limb or head chopped off :-)

Also WW should be getting obliterated by silver and effected by the moon or vampires vulnerability to the sun is also not in game... so the whole undead and health regen argument is kinda moot...

Also you bring up health stealing.. but that's only a counter to massive health regen reduction.. its not a boon... its just a counter to our negative... now the boon to life stealing is that we can morph it gain ultimate power.. that's really the main boon to use it. As many other class ability's steal life with out smacking you with a massive health regen negative. other wise its just to cover another negative to being a vampire.

If you read it all you see I didn't say remove its negative regen and fire damage I just suggested scaling it to make it more balanced is all.

Septimus_Magna · January 2016

Double? Vamps disadvantages are:

Always take 25% more dmg from fire
Need to slot a vamp skill for regen bonus
Always vulnarable to Fighters Guilds skills (Camo Hunter, Silver Shards, Dawnbreaker and 9% increased weapon/spell dmg)

WWs can safely slot their ulitmate and get the regen bonus without any downsides.

The vamp sneak speed makes up for most of it though.
Clouding Batswarm is also pretty nice on a Bosmer/Khajit stam NB.

Arshiya · January 2016

Assuming people taking PVP aspect into consideration mostly.
I never tried PVP in ESO though playing a vampire, but as I read all those posts perhaps a class rebalance could happen.
Or they will just shrug it off with, no one told you to become a vampire so deal with it.

Arkadius · January 2016

For me, there is even a third downside to be a vamp. Without having a vamp ability slotted, you gain no advantages from passives like faster stealth movement or magica/stamina reg. But you still suffer from the disadvantages like fire weakness or life reg.

This change was the killing blow to my vamp existence.

RAGUNAnoOne · January 2016

Also the regeneration passive should NOT require an ability slotted because of all the negatives

Kevmeister wrote: »

You can have all that while us werewolves could stay for as long as we want without having to be in combat and feeding off corpse, have some passives that work outside of werewolf form aside from slotting it as our ultimate, and we'll have a deal.

first one I agree with second I do not that caused people to be a werewolf just for free regeneration last time no it will not work everyone will be a werewolf again.

Kevmeister · January 2016

old_mufasa wrote: »

Kevmeister wrote: »

You can have all that while us werewolves could stay for as long as we want without having to be in combat and feeding off corpse, have some passives that work outside of werewolf form aside from slotting it as our ultimate, and we'll have a deal.

/facepalm....

Did you read my post I addressed this....

Werewolfs get to pick when there vulnerable... this makes them get the all bells and whistles when they needed and allows them to not have them active when they are facing mobs that would effect them...

Also Undeath doesn't work as a passive right now.

So you get a drain life and a damage reduction ablity that you cant get healed while using, faster stealth movement, 10% mana stam regen... vs 25% fire damage one of the most common damage types and massive hit to your health regen.. all the time never able to not get the 25% extra damage or negative health regen effect.....

Remember WW used to take desease damage 100% of the time... so ZOS even thought that debuff all the time was to much.... All i'm saying is for 100% uptime that the risk vs reward is out of balance.

You specifically called out Werewolves and made comparisons, I just merely mirrored you.

sirrmattus · January 2016

old_mufasa wrote: »

Why do vampires have a double negative vs werewolf's?

I tend to see 10x more werewolf's now then vampires as all the negative effects that vampires get saddled with just makes using it almost seem more like a liability in both pvp and pve...

25% more fire damage all the time (vamps) vs 25% disease damage when only in werewolf form... this is of course a big one as fire damage seems more common and you don't have the option to opt out of your vampirism when facing fire damage. Where as a werewolf player you just don't shape shift when fighting diseased damage type mobs.

I think this is the biggest disparity between the two as vamps are stuck all the time with taking more damage type that's a unavoidable vulnerability... now you would say well vampires get access to there 2 skills all the time and passives... and you would be right but...

Then vampires are saddled with a scaling hit on there health regen..... Why do they have this seconded negative?

This is what I don't understand.. fire is already much more of a issue then disease then stuck with a negative health regen. Why the double negative? Now I could understand maybe as your stages of vampirism you gained damage or even damage resistance but all you gain is cheaper vampire skills all 2 of them... but get smacked with a 75% reduction in health regen... this just doesn't seem balanced at all.

Now I get that werewolf's don't get anything while in non-werewolf form but they also have no negative effects while not in werewolf form.. so this is balanced out. While in werewolf form they get self heals, great regens, crowd control, debuff's and dps and damage resistance and ways to keep it extended to last longer and some great passives while in werewolf form... all the while not having to worry about having vulnerability's while not in werewolf form... so many positives compared to negatives.

When looking at vampire passives the only one that seems to be working.. maybe is the 10% stamina / magic regen and the movement speed buff while in stealth

The damage reduction by 30%/50% when under 30% life doesn't seem to work.. looking at the damage tickers on deaths I never ever ever seen the last tick of damage being reduced by 50% even from smaller damage attacks.. so my only guess is this passive is out right broken.. or just worthless.

Then take in to account vampire stages and feeding.. this one I find just more annoying then anything... Why cant we drain animals? why cant we stealth feed on non-enemy NPC's in towns... <--- this is a huge gripe to me. As long as you are not spotted by another npc you should be able to stealth feed on NPC's. Also stage one vampirism is way to short.. its should be backwards to the way it is.. hour for 1, 2 and 3 and 30 mins to get to 4.

Some changes taking into account the 24 hour vulnerability vampires are stuck with I would like to see.

1: Scaling fire vulnerability based off vampire stages and a reduction over all to it based on the 100% uptime of the debuff. I think a 15% stage 1 and 2, 20% stage 3, 25% stage 4 would be better and reward people for feeding.

2: A reduction of health regen negative or a look at the reduction passive as it doesn't seem to be working.

3: A physical damage reduction as you go up in vampire stages. such as no buff for stage 1 and 2, 5% for stage 3, 10% stage 4 symbolizing your desperation to get blood and shrugging off physical hits to get that blood.

4: Being able to feed on animals and stealth feed on non-enemy NPC's.. mainly a QOL and roleplaying change.

5: Fixing or adjusting the Undeath passive as it doesn't seem to be working at all.

It would also nice to have some more active skills... As for pvp.. Vamps are already getting slammed hard by fighter guild skills. so I think the above changes are not really that drastic on that end and will make vampirism a little less cumbersome on the PVE front.

What do you guys think? Are you happy with the current incarnation for vampires? or would like some changes to it as well?

If you look at the history of vamps & ww in all lore (even when talking about outside of eso) your moot is pointless.

PBpsy · January 2016

It is a result of ZOS's policy of haphazardly nerfing crap to appease whiners.

Asherons_Call · January 2016

Didn't you get the memo? A double negative is a positive! Go vamps go

Molag_Crow · January 2016

Which is why I cured.

Draxys · January 2016

It's really only worth it if you're a NB in a medium/big group for big aoe deepz with clouding. That way even if you get cheesed by a one shot wonder d-bag, you can get rezzed more easily.

Callous2208 · January 2016

And yet everyone I face in Cyro is still a vamp. On the other hand, no one ever seems to wolf out in pvp. Must not be that bad off.

Draxys · January 2016

Callous2208 wrote: »

And yet everyone I face in Cyro is still a vamp. On the other hand, no one ever seems to wolf out in pvp. Must not be that bad off.

How can I play on that server? Because you obviously are playing 1.5 or something if everyone's a vamp

TheShadowScout · January 2016

old_mufasa wrote: »

I have both werewolf and vampire and they are not balanced...

So do I, and I have to agree.
My vampy alt does way better with her bloodsucking then my wolfy alt does with her part-time furryness.

The point is, vamps get both the good and the bad all the time.
Wolves only when they transform. (unless the extra staimian regen is still up in human form... I thought they changed that, have I misremembered that?)

old_mufasa wrote: »

Mist form is a out right joke.. when you could heal while in mist form it was .. well in pvp almost op but that was before 1 shot wonder bolts of the fighter guild skills.. So mist from is near pointless...

It has its point, but... yeah, not the greatest thing. If it was at least a toggle and could take you a bit farther that way...

old_mufasa wrote: »

Wolf ultimate vs Vampire.. both have them so they cancel out... even though Wolf form last a hell of a lot longer.. and it should imo.

WRONG.
Since the "wolf untimate" is a -prerequesite- for them to do ANY wolfy stuff. They can either have their wolfy stuff, or a proper ultimate, never both. While vampis can mix and match their vampy abilities as they please... that is a huge advantage.

old_mufasa wrote: »

Ya there undead so why Vamps not given a physical damage reduction passive that has 100% uptime.. I mean after all your undead cuts and bruises should not really effect you unless you get your limb or head chopped off :-)

Or some tendons severed. Or a muscle. Bones broken. Eye split. Nerves cut. Joints damaged.
Heck, even mere "flesh wounds" could plausibly affect vampires since it'd make all their "stolen blood" seep out...

Of course, it could be argued that in many backgrounds, vampires are practically immune to mere mortal weapons. But then, it could also be argued that in pretty much all those backgrounds they burn to ash within instants under the sun... still want to continue that line of argument?

Yeah, thought so.

old_mufasa wrote: »

Also WW should be getting obliterated by silver and effected by the moon or vampires vulnerability to the sun is also not in game... so the whole undead and health regen argument is kinda moot...

Vampires has sunlight vulvnerability in other TES games, but they removed that because MMO. Not a choice I think was a good idea, but...
The fighters guild line is also a bit non-traditional.
Traditionally silver should automatically affect werewolves, but not vampires, because "moon metal". And traditionally -blessed- weapons should affect vampires but not werewolves because "holy". And traditionally vampire abilities should not be useable during the day. And traditionally werewolves should be affected by the moon(s), and have to hunt and devour pray during the full moon, possibly becoming bestial and even attacking their own allies/family/loved ones. And traditionally starved vampires should also be prone to uncontrolled attacks whenever they get overwhelmed by all the bloodbags running around.
I can see that fighters guild might be into anti-daedra/undead blessings because of their big "fight Molag Bal" contract. I can see how they might expand that with using anti-werewolf magic, maybe.
Ther est... hey, -I- for one would like to see it in ESO, make vamps or werewolves feel more like borderline monsters then just people with an extra skill line. But that is a different discussion...

old_mufasa wrote: »

Also you bring up health stealing.. but that's only a counter to massive health regen reduction.. its not a boon... its just a counter to our negative...

That's -just- what I was saying.

Whatever gave you the idea vampires ought to have some advantage without corresponding disadvantage???
This is a MMO, people playing it are supposed to be -equal- in general power. Which means, unlike in a solo-game where it matters not, any "special" like vampire most have an drawback for every boon they get to maintain the balance.

Thus the extra lifestealing abilities are balanced by lack of normel "living" healing.
Which isn't much to depend on anyways in our ESO fights.

And yeah, nightblades get to lifesteal through magic without helath regen debuff. (they get no other heals though)
And dragonknights still get to use DGB when vamped.
And Sorcerors still get health through blood magic or dark deals when vampy.
And templars don't self-incinerate when they use heals as vampires.

So? I see no imbalance there.

The extra lifesteals a vamp gets are balanced by the pretty much nonexistent nominal health regen. In any battle, I am pretty sure you'll lifesteal way more HP through your vampy bloodsucking then you don't regenerate through normal healing. So... its only a disadvantage when the battle is over??? I can live (well, in the case of my vampy alt, be undead?) with that.

Xiana wrote: »

For me, there is even a third downside to be a vamp. Without having a vamp ability slotted, you gain no advantages from passives like faster stealth movement or magica/stamina reg. But you still suffer from the disadvantages like fire weakness or life reg.

Now THAT is a how a valid point looks like!

And one I agree with. If you suffer the drawbacks all the time, which vampires ought to, you also should have the passive benefits all the time, skill slotted or not.

Xjcon · January 2016

Because they Suck!

tennant94 · January 2016

You should get the magicka and stamina recovery regardless of having a vamp skill slotted, you're always in vampire form technically. It would balance out the negatives .

Callous2208 · January 2016

Draxys wrote: »

Callous2208 wrote: »

And yet everyone I face in Cyro is still a vamp. On the other hand, no one ever seems to wolf out in pvp. Must not be that bad off.

How can I play on that server? Because you obviously are playing 1.5 or something if everyone's a vamp

Pc/NA, pick a campaign. Doesn't matter which one.

Brrrofski · January 2016

Main reason I went breton on my temp vamp and nb vamp, then dumner on my Dk vamp.

With CP you pretty much eliminate the fire issue.

So only FG abilities bother me.

Glaiceana · January 2016

tennant94 wrote: »

You should get the magicka and stamina recovery regardless of having a vamp skill slotted, you're always in vampire form technically. It would balance out the negatives .

That does seem quite fair.

MornaBaine · January 2016

old_mufasa wrote: »

Then take in to account vampire stages and feeding.. this one I find just more annoying then anything... Why cant we drain animals? why cant we stealth feed on non-enemy NPC's in towns... <--- this is a huge gripe to me. As long as you are not spotted by another npc you should be able to stealth feed on NPC's. Also stage one vampirism is way to short.. its should be backwards to the way it is.. hour for 1, 2 and 3 and 30 mins to get to 4.

Been begging them for this forever. They refuse to answer. It's incredibly frustrating. Pretty much any time vampires are mentioned, the post is ignored by the Devs and this has been true since day one.

TheShadowScout · January 2016

MornaBaine wrote: »

old_mufasa wrote: »

Then take in to account vampire stages and feeding.. this one I find just more annoying then anything... Why cant we drain animals? why cant we stealth feed on non-enemy NPC's in towns... <--- this is a huge gripe to me. As long as you are not spotted by another npc you should be able to stealth feed on NPC's. Also stage one vampirism is way to short.. its should be backwards to the way it is.. hour for 1, 2 and 3 and 30 mins to get to 4.

Been begging them for this forever. They refuse to answer. It's incredibly frustrating. Pretty much any time vampires are mentioned, the post is ignored by the Devs and this has been true since day one.

Yeah, and that is a discussion worth having.
Oh, and also... why no feeding on willing PC friends?
Why no "gourging" to extend stage 1 per another 30 minutes per additional feed??
Or why no magical ways to preserve blood somehow to have bottles woth of feedings for better stage control???

All things I'd love to see...

LegacyDM · January 2016

Give up dude. This community is toxic towards vamps. I've already had this fight and was beat down by the community. Doesn't matter what you say or how glaringly obvious that vamps are underpowered and unbalanced compared to ww, the community will always say they are op or balanced. Just because they hate vamps. ZOS thinks that balance = batswarm, speed, lackluster decreased damage passive, and magicka/stamina regen vs increased fire damage, fighters guild skills, usable slot, slow health regen, and 2 useless skills. Mist doesn't work right due to stacking cc and drain is pointless in pvp. It's a losing battle.