cote-bmsb16_ESO wrote: »

Autolycus wrote: »

Xvorg wrote: »

Autolycus wrote: »

Xvorg wrote: »

Max magicka means more powerful spells, in the same way max stamina means more powerful WBs

Just try any healing without food and with food

Everyone knows that max magicka increases healing effectiveness. The point I make is that it doesn't matter what race you choose, because you can achieve very high max magicka on any race. I don't need a passive to make that true.

It does matter

I suggest you to try the same build with your argonian and with a Dunmer

10% extra magicka when you have 30k magicka is 3 K. 3 K magicka is aprox 100 spell power.

If I can already achieve those numbers, then why do I need more magicka? The increase in magicka can come from a variety of places, like glyphs, wearing all light armor, etc. I can already cast indefinitely. I can shield indefinitely. I have already acknowledged that the increase in magicka could increase healing potential (again, people aren't reading before posting). Still, my point is that I don't need the passive to be a strong healer.
Edit: 100 spell power really isn't that much. Yes, it is an improvement. But if it means playing a class I don't want to play, only for 100 SP? I can do better than that with a single glyph.

I would like for people to discuss Argonian passives, is that not why we are here? People have been claiming that DKs can't heal for a long time. Even my own guildmates criticized it, and I proved them wrong. Now they support me and will attest to these numbers, because they've seen it. But none of that really matters, because I play an Argonian because I like it, and I won't change because I can play competitively the way I am.

Yea, I know this argonian DK healer that heals like a monster. The healing springs tick higher than on my templar healer. I asked him what gear he was running, and we were running the same sets. 1 Kena, 2 Torugs, 5 Spell Powercure and 3 Willpower. We tested healing springs on a few different tanks and dps, and that major mending passive gives them a lovely boost over all.

He just proves you dont need to run a dunmer, or breton to be an OP AF healer. You just have to know your class, and how to play. A lot of people struggle because they don't fully understand their class or abilities in the game, then once they figure it out, they poop on other builds because they haven't tried it. Argonians are discriminated against because hardly any one runs them.

Props to this fellow, he puts a lot of other healers to shame. Don't discriminate because he's got a tail or isn't a templar.

I suppose you both had the same CPs, right?

Fernando Alonso was F1 Champion in 2005 with a Renault, a car that was several steps behind the Ferrari.

It is not the car you drive, it is the driver who makes the difference, but it doesn't mean a bad car should remain bad just because the driver is good.

Autolycus wrote: »

I like Argonians exactly the way they are. I've had an Argonian DragonKnight healer (yes, a fully dedicated DK healer) since beta. Granted, the passives alone don't make him a better healer than the next guy/gal. But he is a very strong healer (with healing springs crits for 7k+ per tick, healing ward crits for 30k+) and damn hard to take down (especially because of his own healing received, thanks to the passive).

He has just over 3k spell power buffed, 34k max magicka, using all divines and the ritual mundus. There is more damage potential with him, but I don't really use him for damage. On occasion I will add in some AOEs to speed trash along, or throw in a few single target skills during burn phases and such. Mostly he is built for massive healing potential and utility (chains, talons, etc.) and I don't have to do much damage, because most of the people I run with pull very high numbers already.

Edit: I should probably mention that I'm open to adjustments to their passives. I might just be one of those guys that really likes them as-is. That doesn't make it optimal, or mean that the rest of you don't have good suggestions for improvements.

The Argonian passives have nothing to do with any of those numbers except what healing you do to yourself. Please elaborate. Everyone else is right. Your healing would be better with a magicka race. It's a mathematical fact.

cote-bmsb16_ESO wrote: »

Autolycus wrote: »

Xvorg wrote: »

Autolycus wrote: »

Xvorg wrote: »

Max magicka means more powerful spells, in the same way max stamina means more powerful WBs

Just try any healing without food and with food

Everyone knows that max magicka increases healing effectiveness. The point I make is that it doesn't matter what race you choose, because you can achieve very high max magicka on any race. I don't need a passive to make that true.

It does matter

I suggest you to try the same build with your argonian and with a Dunmer

10% extra magicka when you have 30k magicka is 3 K. 3 K magicka is aprox 100 spell power.

If I can already achieve those numbers, then why do I need more magicka? The increase in magicka can come from a variety of places, like glyphs, wearing all light armor, etc. I can already cast indefinitely. I can shield indefinitely. I have already acknowledged that the increase in magicka could increase healing potential (again, people aren't reading before posting). Still, my point is that I don't need the passive to be a strong healer.
Edit: 100 spell power really isn't that much. Yes, it is an improvement. But if it means playing a class I don't want to play, only for 100 SP? I can do better than that with a single glyph.

I would like for people to discuss Argonian passives, is that not why we are here? People have been claiming that DKs can't heal for a long time. Even my own guildmates criticized it, and I proved them wrong. Now they support me and will attest to these numbers, because they've seen it. But none of that really matters, because I play an Argonian because I like it, and I won't change because I can play competitively the way I am.

Yea, I know this argonian DK healer that heals like a monster. The healing springs tick higher than on my templar healer. I asked him what gear he was running, and we were running the same sets. 1 Kena, 2 Torugs, 5 Spell Powercure and 3 Willpower. We tested healing springs on a few different tanks and dps, and that major mending passive gives them a lovely boost over all.

He just proves you dont need to run a dunmer, or breton to be an OP AF healer. You just have to know your class, and how to play. A lot of people struggle because they don't fully understand their class or abilities in the game, then once they figure it out, they poop on other builds because they haven't tried it. Argonians are discriminated against because hardly any one runs them.

Props to this fellow, he puts a lot of other healers to shame. Don't discriminate because he's got a tail or isn't a templar.

So take his same build and switch the race to Breton, Altmer, or Dunmer. He would be even better. He could be a Redguard and post those same numbers. Redguard passives improve that build as much as Argonian ones do. Again, you guys are making a poor argument for Argonian passives.

Autolycus wrote: »

Flameheart wrote: »

My guess is that some posters above still misunderstand the Argonian racial bonus...it's improved healing taken by the player only and not healing delivered to others (...and I know some people who chose an Argonian exactly due to such misreading).

Any other class with a + % magicka bonus as racial will cast higher heals concerning the same build, equip and CP distribution just because of the fact that skill power depends on the amount of your base ressource stat.

On another side it might not make any critical difference in endgame.

PS: Imho amassing up to 3k spell damage as a healer is wrong. It's not bad to have spell damage as a healer, but much more I want cost reduction / reg and if we talk about a secondary stat then it would be crit, but not spell damage. You can't expect to have always two absolute ultra dps in your group or raid, sometimes things last longer or someone dies and has to be rezzed. This is true for PvE and in addition even much more in PvP.

Nobody dies in this game because your BoL or HW heals for less. People die in this game because they get an unhealable onehit ("standing in stupid"), being out of range (might be the DD's mistake, might be the healer's mistake) or the healer was just to slow or he was out of magicka.

I have tested the spell power theory, as have many others I know, and stacking spell power as a healer is statistically proven to be more effective, so long as stacking spell power doesn't reduce max magicka, spell crit, etc. It's about optimizing everything, not just one or two stats. What else would you invest in, if you already have the magicka/regen/crit that is needed to effectively heal?

The last build I used on my healer only had about 1200 spell damage, all else remained relatively constant. After switching a few things around, again keeping everything else constant, I was able to increase that spell power to 3k. This was a huge improvement. Where my healing springs crits were ticking between 4.5-6k before, they now tick between 6.5-7.5k.

And yes, I am fully aware that the Argonian passives are for healing received, and not healing done. That was the whole reason I posted to begin with, so please read before commenting. The point I make is that I like Argonian passives the way they are, and I don't feel the need for them to change. That doesn't mean there's not a better passive for Argonians, or that we can't all have our own ideas on how to improve them.

I have a Breton Templar. I have 1874 spell power using Kagrenac's Hope. I still have 41k magicka (with buff food) without using the Mage mundus. I have ~ 1600 magicka reg (and in 100% of all cases 20% more, because of Tripots). In addition I have 63,3% crit. I just have 50 CPs in blessed and 20 in Elfblood, but 74 in Thaumaturge, because in good groups you spent your time with 1/4 healing, 1/4 support/buffs but 1/2 damage dealing. 10-15k single target support dps by just using a mediocre and even incomplete ranged DD skill set up isn't that bad I suppose.

Your spell damage build might be not that bad for PvP burst healing, but I wonder how long you might do that there. Reg is still king especially in PvP.

Btw, nobody won't argue that Argonians can't be great healers, at max lvl the advantage of racial passives is still there, but it's diminishing.

avid_mdb16_ESO wrote: »

All that argonians really need is more lakes in Tamriel. They have a very strong passive ...just one problem there is no damn water.

Yeah and why no abilities can be cast while swimming?

As I said before, I want my "eating slaughterfish" passive, so I can make my bungee jumping from alessia's bridge...

instead of that, ZOS give us

avid_mdb16_ESO wrote: »

All that argonians really need is more lakes in Tamriel. They have a very strong passive ...just one problem there is no damn water.

Yeah and why no abilities can be cast while swimming?

They DO have water a lot of it but it is ALL slaughterfish infested...

I gave up pleading with ZOS to buff Argonian passives. I remade all characters because I started with Argonian because I like their lore.

I'd love to make one again still but then I also run into the amazingly annoying leveling path again that makes alts a pain in the butt..

Junkogen wrote: »

Icky wrote: »

Argonian passives seem all over the place. They train in Resto Staff faster but get swim speed bonus. It just makes sense to have more heal type related passives.

I can look at any race's racial passives and easily decide what they would be suited for. Then I look at Argonian and just think "wtf". I challenge you to go look up all the racial passives and tell me I'm wrong.

So why not just a flat increase to magicka? Then everyone who's not a healer isn't pidgeonholed. Max magicka as a stat increase would increase healing done because spell strength is calculated off of spell power and max magicka. That's the thing a lot of people are missing. A max stat increase does so much more than all the other stuff. Max stats allow you to spend that resource on whatever plus it makes those expenditures more powerful. That's why all the recommended builds involve races that have the largest max stat increase.

Thing is, I'm not asking to be a top magicka race like Altmer, Breton, or Dunmer. That would be nice, but ZOS is dead set against it. So I'm just saying, make us like Orcs or something but with magicka. There are only 3 magicka races right now with 5 stamina races. It would add to build diversity and make our race competitive. Sure, they're not the top magicka choice, but at least they would be thrown in as a good choice. Right now, we're not even a good choice for anything. Argonians just aren't good at anything. In fact, because our passive requires the use of a consumable, it's actually more a hindrance to be an Argonian than any benefit. Those potion ingredients don't collect and mix themselves. That's why I get so frustrated with @ZOS about this issue. They've effectively handicapped our race and seriously inconvenienced the Argonian player base (if there will be any of us left after race change is allowed).

1. You state there are 3 Magic Races and 5 Stamina Races. I recognize the 3 magic races: Altmer, Dunmer, Breton. There are only 6 Stamina races though: Orc, Dunmer, Bosmer, Khajiit, Imperial, and Redguard. Note that Dunmer gets to double dip and that while Khajiit have no direct stat increases their weapon crit bonus effectively enhances stamina builds. Finally there are what I would consider 4 'Health' or 'Tank' Races: Imperial, Argonian, Orc, and Nord. Imperials and Orcs are fortunate in that they benefit both in health and stamina.

2. I agree with you about Argonians in general. I definitely feel the healing factor should be significantly better than it is. I'm fine with a lower base attributes if they can make up for it with much improved regeneration: Which suits their theme anyway.

3. Ultimately the problem is the removal of soft caps in the game, the changing of many base mechanics, and the fact the Argonian was never top dog even at its best. This doesn't mean I will re-race my character. I'm not going to pay ZoS for screwing up game systems. If they can't balance the game that is on them, and I suspect many other players feel like me in this regard. Some players will simply leave over the issue if it can not be resolved to their satisfaction. I can personally think of no good reason to pay the company for bad service, and that is what you're doing if you pay to have your race changed. Then again there are a lot of poor and ignorant people lining up for the billion dollar lotto right now, you know the one with the chance of winning equivalent to getting struck by lightning once a week on friday, every week for 7 weeks in a row.

For some reason all my comment didn't appear

Anyway, i have an idea I would like to put across, i was looking at racials and noticed that imperial and redguard have restore stat racials in red diamond and adrenaline rush, but there is no magicka variant. So i was thinking it could be good for argonians to get one, it could be called "hist absorption" or something along those lines. It could go something like this -

* Restores x amount of magicka on heavy attacks, this effect can only occur once every 5 seconds*

(I say heavy attacks instead of melee so that staves get the benefit alongside the magicka melee users)

This could fit better alongside the restoration staff skill, make them better healers and magicka tanks and also magicka nightblades to fit in with the shadowscales.

Alucardo wrote: »

The thing that puts me off Argonians is the reliance on drinking potions to benefit. I generally run high sustain builds and manage resources fairly well, so I rarely need to take pots.

Personally, these are the changes that would make me turn Argonian;

Quick to mend
- Increases healing received 6%
- Increases healing done 4%

Amphibious
- Increases swimming speed by 50% and reduce Slaughterfish damage by 20%
- When you heal at or below 60% of your max health, gain 40% magicka, stamina and health regeneration for 10 seconds. Also grants minor heroism increasing your ultimate gain slightly. This passive has a 30 second cooldown.

Basically this turns Amphibious into a powerful survivability passive, while maintaining a cooldown to ensure it's not too OP. I find regen helps me out a lot more than just getting a few numbers back.

I like your suggestions. At the very least they give us something to ponder, and might even be something I would like to see for my Argonian as well.

I hesitate to use the word "rely" when talking about potion passives for Argonians. I use potions only on an as-needed basis; I don't ever rely on them. But, I also didn't build my Argonian around his passives. I built everything around the simple fact that I wanted to play an Argonian.

Perhaps this is a distinction that doesn't need to be made, but I would like to clarify that there is a difference between being a min-maxer and someone who min-maxes their characters. I know, it might seem like the same thing to a lot of people. But where I draw the line is between someone who explicitly builds a character with the intention of min-maxing a specific role, and someone who attempts to min-max the class/roll which they have already chosen. Using myself as an example: I really, really wanted to play an Argonian DK healer, so I created one. Now I min-max him to his full potential, which has so far proven to be both viable and competitive relative to other healers.

Alucardo wrote: »

Quick to mend
- Increases healing received 6%
- Increases healing done 4%

Amphibious
- Increases swimming speed by 50% and reduce Slaughterfish damage by 20%
- When you heal at or below 60% of your max health, gain 40% magicka, stamina and health regeneration for 10 seconds. Also grants minor heroism increasing your ultimate gain slightly. This passive has a 30 second cooldown.

Are you assuming that personal healing done is at +4% then apply +6% bonus additively?

I realize it is just a "maybe it could be this" response to a possible Argonian passive change but we might as well iron it out

Jar_Ek wrote: »

40% regen bonus per attribute for 10s in every 40s (assuming you are wounded and being healed) is roughly equivalent to what 10% all the time? And hence roughly equivalent to a single 30% regen passive - but tied to being below 60% health and being healed. I would prefer the 10% rather than an on wounded and being healed mechanic I think, but still a lot better than the potion passive for most people most of the time I suspect.

Agreed. If we're going to get regen, I would like to follow the potion passive lead and go 10% increase regen across all stats. That's consistent with the 30% regen other races have, plus it's unique. Also, it would be nice to not have a passive tied to something. What @Alucardo proposed is another passive with a limitation. The single biggest problem with Argonian passives is that they all have stipulations and limitations. Other races don't have any restrictions like that.