vMSA is an insult. Why should I ever buy DLC again?

CavalierPrime · January 2016

So a 0.0001% clear rate on consoles for templar and dk is appropriate to ZoS? Putting BY FAR the best weapons in the game behind a wall that only a portion of sorcs and NB can clear?

How do I know the same thing wont happen in future DLCs? Why does PC get nerfs to the damage and consoles dont? How can this not be considered business malpractice when youre enraging so many customers?

Just make the v16 MSA weapons available through the normal arena at blue quality like you did for silver keys + monster helms. People who gave up on vMSA would suddenly start grinding it again, and these rage threads can stop. To all the PC sorcs and NB who are trying to protect their illegitimate accomplishment, GFY.

Decayed_Inside · January 2016

Plus the content is so buggy and unfinished it's insane. Then PC gets two patches of bug fixes while console gets left in the dark. I honestly don't think I ever want another DLC from this company.

Sallington · January 2016

CavalierPrime wrote: »

So a 0.0001% clear rate on consoles for templar and dk is appropriate to ZoS? Putting BY FAR the best weapons in the game behind a wall that only a portion of sorcs and NB can clear?

How do I know the same thing wont happen in future DLCs? Why does PC get nerfs to the damage and consoles dont? How can this not be considered business malpractice when youre enraging so many customers?

Just make the v16 MSA weapons available through the normal arena at blue quality like you did for silver keys + monster helms. People who gave up on vMSA would suddenly start grinding it again, and these rage threads can stop. To all the PC sorcs and NB who are trying to protect their illegitimate accomplishment, GFY.

Bolded the great idea. Even just the chance for a v16 blue master weapon drop would be enough. I might actually deal with the RNG balogna if I could do a run in 35-40 minutes on normal.

cyx54tc · January 2016

I think your best bet is v15 blue master weapon in normal.

Wollust · January 2016

The weapons are only relevant for high end min/max builds. If you can't handle the content to get it, you won't profit from it most likely anyway.

In other words, l2p.

Paulington · January 2016

CavalierPrime wrote: »

So a 0.0001% clear rate on consoles for templar and dk is appropriate to ZoS? Putting BY FAR the best weapons in the game behind a wall that only a portion of sorcs and NB can clear?

How do I know the same thing wont happen in future DLCs? Why does PC get nerfs to the damage and consoles dont? How can this not be considered business malpractice when youre enraging so many customers?

Just make the v16 MSA weapons available through the normal arena at blue quality like you did for silver keys + monster helms. People who gave up on vMSA would suddenly start grinding it again, and these rage threads can stop. To all the PC sorcs and NB who are trying to protect their illegitimate accomplishment, GFY.

I'd have no issue with Zenimax adding VR15 Epic Maelstrom Weapons to the final chest in normal Maelstrom Arena. The problem with them adding VR16 Maelstrom Weapons to normal MA chest is it makes running veteran pointless, everyone would just farm normal in 30 minutes per run to get their weapons.

As I demonstrated via video, it is very easily doable with practice with a gamepad and without addons as a Sorcerer, harder on other classes no doubt but definitely not impossible, with practice and time spent you can clear it and get better each time.

Console will get all the fixes PC get however due to third-party patch certification requirements ZOS have to submit their patches weeks in advance and if one thing isn't to Sony/Microsoft's liking they have to do it all over again, so they consolidate patches that we get every week into a big "monthly" style patch for consoles instead. This is how most games do it, such as Warframe for example.

Thing is, even if ZOS did add VR15 Maelstrom weapons to the normal loot table they wouldn't be used anyway due to the huge damage difference between VR15 and VR16 weapons which kind of makes the point of adding them moot.

CavalierPrime · January 2016

Wollust wrote: »

The weapons are only relevant for high end min/max builds. If you can't handle the content to get it, you won't profit from it most likely anyway.

In other words, l2p.

Dont tell me what an extra 129 damage is relevant for. Im sure youre great at parties. Learn2social

Decayed_Inside · January 2016

CavalierPrime wrote: »

Wollust wrote: »

The weapons are only relevant for high end min/max builds. If you can't handle the content to get it, you won't profit from it most likely anyway.

In other words, l2p.

Dont tell me what an extra 129 damage is relevant for. Im sure youre great at parties. Learn2social

Yeah really. How rude can people on here be?

CavalierPrime · January 2016

cyx54tc wrote: »

I think your best bet is v15 blue master weapon in normal.

Silver keys give v16 blue shoulders because people complained and didnt want to waste their time. But that isn't even good enough so theyre coming out with the vendor. The only reason to give v16 blue weapons is to get the customers to play the content they paid their employees to create. Do you think the guy who programmed Maelstrom is happy that everyone hates his work? All the months of blood and sweat he poured into that programming was WORTHLESS at this point.

Also the veteran will still be useful for v16 Winterborn type sets and most importantly, the leaderboard. Because if the crybaby narcissist customers cant inflate their ego, they'll bring their own QQ onto the forums.

NewBlacksmurf · January 2016

Suggestion:

Buy ESO Plus....try it out and move on but keep the crowns.
This way you don't end up, mad and you can use crowns for something else.

*To make sure you get the crowns, maybe but from the console store. and then cancel the sub.
wait until it expires and then re-up

other than this...its my only suggestion, cause we all will like or dislike content based on our own opinions and play-styles

Sallington · January 2016

CavalierPrime wrote: »

cyx54tc wrote: »

I think your best bet is v15 blue master weapon in normal.

Silver keys give v16 blue shoulders because people complained and didnt want to waste their time. But that isn't even good enough so theyre coming out with the vendor. The only reason to give v16 blue weapons is to get the customers to play the content they paid their employees to create. Do you think the guy who programmed Maelstrom is happy that everyone hates his work? All the months of blood and sweat he poured into that programming was WORTHLESS at this point.

Vet mode seems extremely rushed, which I'm sure was no fault of the devs. They had some good ideas with normal, and then to make it harder, literally just increased the HP and mob damage (by a crap ton).

Decayed_Inside · January 2016

CavalierPrime wrote: »

cyx54tc wrote: »

I think your best bet is v15 blue master weapon in normal.

Silver keys give v16 blue shoulders because people complained and didnt want to waste their time. But that isn't even good enough so theyre coming out with the vendor. The only reason to give v16 blue weapons is to get the customers to play the content they paid their employees to create. Do you think the guy who programmed Maelstrom is happy that everyone hates his work? All the months of blood and sweat he poured into that programming was WORTHLESS at this point.

The people who did completely the content mainly say they will never return once they get what they wanted. So how good is the content really? It's good to get the weapon then it's disposable according to many of the players completing it. Most hate the experience

Autolycus · January 2016

CavalierPrime wrote: »

Just make the v16 MSA weapons available through the normal arena at blue quality like you did for silver keys + monster helms. People who gave up on vMSA would suddenly start grinding it again, and these rage threads can stop. To all the PC sorcs and NB who are trying to protect their illegitimate accomplishment, GFY.

My initial thoughts are to include blue-quality maelstrom weapons for clearing normal, except I don't think they should include the highest quality traits (precise, sharpened).

Anyone who has at least attempted vMA understands your rage. But seriously, "illegitimate accomplishment"? vMA is far from easy, even for sorcs and nbs. Your issue is clearly regarding class balance, so there really is no need for you to start disrespecting other people, when you should be directing your feedback at ZOS. It wouldn't hurt to have a little tact.

Arkraptor · January 2016

Honestly, it's not as if the DLC contains just vMA. There is a full zone of pretty, nice quests, some interesting world bosses, and normal Maelstrom Arena.

I agree with others that maelstrom staffs aren't really required. It's nice to have. I think it's completely reasonable to gate these kind of nice to have items on very difficult contents sometime, as long as there are other reasonable alternatives (and there are a lot). Otherwise, the top 1% players will have nothing to strive for. (And no, I'm not one of the top 1% players, not even close.)

Oreyn_Bearclaw · January 2016

Decayed_Inside wrote: »

Plus the content is so buggy and unfinished it's insane. Then PC gets two patches of bug fixes while console gets left in the dark. I honestly don't think I ever want another DLC from this company.

It's no picnic on PC. I still get insane lag spikes at times, especially in stage 9 to the point of being unplayable. I have also DC'd on very last boss twice now, both times I have lost progress. Usually my weave will simply freeze with my staff halfway back, i start to slow down, then 3 seconds later i am dead. Usually there will only be 1 or 2 things on a death recap that arent enough to kill me. I get lag in this game in two places, Cyrodiil and VMA.

CavalierPrime · January 2016

Autolycus wrote: »

CavalierPrime wrote: »

Just make the v16 MSA weapons available through the normal arena at blue quality like you did for silver keys + monster helms. People who gave up on vMSA would suddenly start grinding it again, and these rage threads can stop. To all the PC sorcs and NB who are trying to protect their illegitimate accomplishment, GFY.

My initial thoughts are to include blue-quality maelstrom weapons for clearing normal, except I don't think they should include the highest quality traits (precise, sharpened).

Anyone who has at least attempted vMA understands your rage. But seriously, "illegitimate accomplishment"? vMA is far from easy, even for sorcs and nbs. Your issue is clearly regarding class balance, so there really is no need for you to start disrespecting other people, when you should be directing your feedback at ZOS. It wouldn't hurt to have a little tact.

I say illegitimate only because their barrier to clear is lower. The people who clear on PC with a sorc and 501 cp have the gall to tell a ps4 DK with 270 cp "l2p". Its like a beautiful woman bragging about winning a beauty pageant. Well if you were fat you wouldn't have won. Those of us on consoles playing DK are the fat girls.

Wollust · January 2016

CavalierPrime wrote: »

Wollust wrote: »

The weapons are only relevant for high end min/max builds. If you can't handle the content to get it, you won't profit from it most likely anyway.

In other words, l2p.

Dont tell me what an extra 129 damage is relevant for. Im sure youre great at parties. Learn2social

I am actually great at parties. Not that it matters for this discussion though.

1. Get your numbers straight.
2. If you only look at the spelldamage/weapondamage bonus and think the weapons are superior just because of that, you already confirmed that you won't profit from those weapons.

I'll stick therefore to my previous statement.

Ezareth · January 2016

CavalierPrime wrote: »

So a 0.0001% clear rate on consoles for templar and dk is appropriate to ZoS? Putting BY FAR the best weapons in the game behind a wall that only a portion of sorcs and NB can clear?

How do I know the same thing wont happen in future DLCs? Why does PC get nerfs to the damage and consoles dont? How can this not be considered business malpractice when youre enraging so many customers?

Just make the v16 MSA weapons available through the normal arena at blue quality like you did for silver keys + monster helms. People who gave up on vMSA would suddenly start grinding it again, and these rage threads can stop. To all the PC sorcs and NB who are trying to protect their illegitimate accomplishment, GFY.

vMSA isn't Osrinium, only a *tiny* piece of it.

If the weapons were "BY FAR" the best weapons, why do I still use crafted weapons in both PvE and PvP on my Sorc despite having a perfectly traited Maelstrom weapon of every type?

PC Didn't get nerfs to damage.

Flaminir · January 2016

As others have said, most of the suggestions on the rewards are not going to work....

+ Make it a lower quality EG blue - Pointless... anybody can just upgrade it.
+ Make it V15 - weapon is then useless as it'll put out less damage than a dropped/crafted V16 weapon.
+ Make normal drop V16 weapons - Will totally negate having a vet version.

At this stage the only thing I can think / suggest is around them getting the buggy / stupid RNG mechanics fixed. We don't want it nerfed to hell... neither should it be as luck based as some of it is now.

This helps with allowing people to complete it with practice / time invested if they want to, without a nerf.. after all its MEANT to be the hardest thing in the game.

The only suggestion I can't remember seeing is having V16 weapons drop but at a VERY low drop rate! So you have a 100% chance on the vet version at getting a maelstrom weapon... and maybe a 5% chance on the normal one or something like that.

Ezareth · January 2016

CavalierPrime wrote: »

Wollust wrote: »

The weapons are only relevant for high end min/max builds. If you can't handle the content to get it, you won't profit from it most likely anyway.

In other words, l2p.

Dont tell me what an extra 129 damage is relevant for. Im sure youre great at parties. Learn2social

It's 189 damage and it also costs you the weapon damage enchant itself which negates the bonus. You can still get the same spellpower numbers using different builds without a maelstrom weapon.

CavalierPrime · January 2016

Wollust wrote: »

CavalierPrime wrote: »

Wollust wrote: »

The weapons are only relevant for high end min/max builds. If you can't handle the content to get it, you won't profit from it most likely anyway.

In other words, l2p.

Dont tell me what an extra 129 damage is relevant for. Im sure youre great at parties. Learn2social

I am actually great at parties. Not that it matters for this discussion though.

1. Get your numbers straight.
2. If you only look at the spelldamage/weapondamage bonus and think the weapons are superior just because of that, you already confirmed that you won't profit from those weapons.

I'll stick therefore to my previous statement.

So having 5x Julianos, 3x Willpower, 2x Monster, 1x Set-less staff is better than 5x Julianos, 3x Willpower, 2x Monster, 1x Maelstrom Staff? Wow you learn something new everyday.

My personal reasons for wanting a Maelstrom staff have no bearing on my argument against vMSA's balance or support for blue weapons in normal. The maul and the daggers are absolutely unreal in addition to the weapon damage buff, and you know the weapons are superior.

As for you being great at parties, if this thread was a party I would make you leave, because youre a son of a Betty Netch.

Flaminir · January 2016

CavalierPrime wrote: »

Wollust wrote: »

CavalierPrime wrote: »

Wollust wrote: »

The weapons are only relevant for high end min/max builds. If you can't handle the content to get it, you won't profit from it most likely anyway.

In other words, l2p.

Dont tell me what an extra 129 damage is relevant for. Im sure youre great at parties. Learn2social

I am actually great at parties. Not that it matters for this discussion though.

1. Get your numbers straight.
2. If you only look at the spelldamage/weapondamage bonus and think the weapons are superior just because of that, you already confirmed that you won't profit from those weapons.

I'll stick therefore to my previous statement.

So having 5x Julianos, 3x Willpower, 2x Monster, 1x Set-less staff is better than 5x Julianos, 3x Willpower, 2x Monster, 1x Maelstrom Staff? Wow you learn something new everyday.

Yes... because as Ezareth mentioned... you get the damage enchant on the crafted staff AND you can make it Nirnhoned.... MA staves don't drop in Nirn

Ezareth · January 2016

CavalierPrime wrote: »

Wollust wrote: »

CavalierPrime wrote: »

Wollust wrote: »

The weapons are only relevant for high end min/max builds. If you can't handle the content to get it, you won't profit from it most likely anyway.

In other words, l2p.

Dont tell me what an extra 129 damage is relevant for. Im sure youre great at parties. Learn2social

I am actually great at parties. Not that it matters for this discussion though.

1. Get your numbers straight.
2. If you only look at the spelldamage/weapondamage bonus and think the weapons are superior just because of that, you already confirmed that you won't profit from those weapons.

I'll stick therefore to my previous statement.

So having 5x Julianos, 3x Willpower, 2x Monster, 1x Set-less staff is better than 5x Julianos, 3x Willpower, 2x Monster, 1x Maelstrom Staff? Wow you learn something new everyday.

My personal reasons for wanting a Maelstrom staff have no bearing on my argument against vMSA's balance or support for blue weapons in normal. The maul and the daggers are absolutely unreal in addition to the weapon damage buff, and you know the weapons are superior.

As for you being great at parties, if this thread was a party I would make you leave, because youre a son of a Betty Netch.

The vast majority of people rocking perfectly itemized monster sets have already had vMSA on farm.

Autolycus · January 2016

CavalierPrime wrote: »

I say illegitimate only because their barrier to clear is lower. The people who clear on PC with a sorc and 501 cp have the gall to tell a ps4 DK with 270 cp "l2p". Its like a beautiful woman bragging about winning a beauty pageant. Well if you were fat you wouldn't have won. Those of us on consoles playing DK are the fat girls.

Look, one of my closest friends and guild members is a magicka dk and he beat it after hours and hours of struggle. Another of my friends/guildies is a magicka templar and the same is true. One of my members is a stamina nb, and he was the first person to beat it on DC (on PC, and this is with all the "stam nbs can't do maelstrom" business circulating as of late). And guess what? One of my magicka sorcs spent hours upon hours of failing and restarting before he got it.

The point is, the struggle is real for everyone. What you have chosen to do here is take out your rage on a select group of people who, we can probably both admit, are jerks. I'd like to ask: as one of those fat girls in school, is the appropriate response to condemn everyone of a single category, much like has been done to you by that select group of jerks? Or is the appropriate response to recognize the actual issue, which is class balance, and take an adult, mature approach, such as making a constructive thread directed to ZOS?

Your comments are evidence that you think the entire arena is just designed to be easier for magicka NBs and sorcs, rather than addressing the specific limitations that dks and temps face. Literally every person I've spoken to about their experience in vMA was the same:

"It's really difficult. It took me hours and dozens of deaths (at least) and multiple sittings to complete it. Some arenas are easier for specific classes, and others are more challenging."

Nobody I spoke to said it was easy for any class. For me, it was much easier to clear the 6th arena than it was for anybody else I spoke to, but then arenas that were less challenging for others (like arena 7) were substantially more difficult for me.

Anhedonie · January 2016

CavalierPrime wrote: »

So a 0.0001% clear rate on consoles for templar and dk is appropriate to ZoS? Putting BY FAR the best weapons in the game behind a wall that only a portion of sorcs and NB can clear?

How do I know the same thing wont happen in future DLCs? Why does PC get nerfs to the damage and consoles dont? How can this not be considered business malpractice when youre enraging so many customers?

Just make the v16 MSA weapons available through the normal arena at blue quality like you did for silver keys + monster helms. People who gave up on vMSA would suddenly start grinding it again, and these rage threads can stop. To all the PC sorcs and NB who are trying to protect their illegitimate accomplishment, GFY.

I liked that last sentence a lot.

Wollust · January 2016

CavalierPrime wrote: »

Wollust wrote: »

CavalierPrime wrote: »

Wollust wrote: »

The weapons are only relevant for high end min/max builds. If you can't handle the content to get it, you won't profit from it most likely anyway.

In other words, l2p.

Dont tell me what an extra 129 damage is relevant for. Im sure youre great at parties. Learn2social

I am actually great at parties. Not that it matters for this discussion though.

1. Get your numbers straight.
2. If you only look at the spelldamage/weapondamage bonus and think the weapons are superior just because of that, you already confirmed that you won't profit from those weapons.

I'll stick therefore to my previous statement.

So having 5x Julianos, 3x Willpower, 2x Monster, 1x Set-less staff is better than 5x Julianos, 3x Willpower, 2x Monster, 1x Maelstrom Staff? Wow you learn something new everyday.

My personal reasons for wanting a Maelstrom staff have no bearing on my argument against vMSA's balance or support for blue weapons in normal. The maul and the daggers are absolutely unreal in addition to the weapon damage buff, and you know the weapons are superior.

As for you being great at parties, if this thread was a party I would make you leave, because youre a son of a Betty Netch.

Alright.

The maelstrom staff is (probably, have yet to see actually comparable numbers) better IF you use elemental blockade with it. Otherwise, the setless staff wins. Reason: Nirnhoned + weapon enchant > 189 spell damage. Same goes for the other weapons, just that in case of stamina weapons you can use the weapon damage enchant to have an equal number there (plus a set bonus and a second enchant in case of dualwield).

Edit: If this thread was a party it would be a very lame, whiny and sad one.
Edit2: Yes, you just learned something new today. You are welcome!

Jura23 · January 2016

Don't forget that numbers are flawed also by the fact that many peeps who complete it on DKs and Templars go get MA weapons first on their sorcs, which helps them to get the job done on underwhelming classes.

Ezareth · January 2016

Autolycus wrote: »

CavalierPrime wrote: »

I say illegitimate only because their barrier to clear is lower. The people who clear on PC with a sorc and 501 cp have the gall to tell a ps4 DK with 270 cp "l2p". Its like a beautiful woman bragging about winning a beauty pageant. Well if you were fat you wouldn't have won. Those of us on consoles playing DK are the fat girls.

Look, one of my closest friends and guild members is a magicka dk and he beat it after hours and hours of struggle. Another of my friends/guildies is a magicka templar and the same is true. One of my members is a stamina nb, and he was the first person to beat it on DC (on PC, and this is with all the "stam nbs can't do maelstrom" business circulating as of late). And guess what? One of my magicka sorcs spent hours upon hours of failing and restarting before he got it.

The point is, the struggle is real for everyone. What you have chosen to do here is take out your rage on a select group of people who, we can probably both admit, are jerks. I'd like to ask: as one of those fat girls in school, is the appropriate response to condemn everyone of a single category, much like has been done to you by that select group of jerks? Or is the appropriate response to recognize the actual issue, which is class balance, and take an adult, mature approach, such as making a constructive thread directed to ZOS?

Your comments are evidence that you think the entire arena is just designed to be easier for magicka NBs and sorcs, rather than addressing the specific limitations that dks and temps face. Literally every person I've spoken to about their experience in vMA was the same:

"It's really difficult. It took me hours and dozens of deaths (at least) and multiple sittings to complete it. Some arenas are easier for specific classes, and others are more challenging. Every class has an easier time with some arenas than other classes do."

Nobody I spoke to said it was easy for any class. For me, it was much easier for me to clear the 6th arena than it was for anybody else I spoke to, but then arenas that were less challenging for others (like arena 7) were substantially more difficult for me.

Yeah it took me 12 hours of overall learning before I was able to complete vMSA my first time. I died 128 times on it but hey I guess I'm just an elitist EZ-mode sorc.

Spacemonkey · January 2016

CavalierPrime wrote: »

Do you think the guy who programmed Maelstrom is happy that everyone hates his work? All the months of blood and sweat he poured into that programming was WORTHLESS at this point.

I think the Level-Designer, is pissed off at the Programmer that can't seem to get the base mechanics to work (I'm looking at focused charge now....) and the Game Designer that can't seem to figure out how to balance everything. And that it's causing everyone to hate the crazy nice levels he made for the Maelstrom Arena.

From my experience - there is also added grief because the programmer couldn't care less. (I know I don't). And the Game Designer is on his cloud, above fault, and to him, if you have grief with the game (as a player or Dev), the fault lies with YOU.

Poor level designers.....

I feels you. (and now I gets arrested for public indecency)

CavalierPrime · January 2016

Autolycus wrote: »

CavalierPrime wrote: »

I say illegitimate only because their barrier to clear is lower. The people who clear on PC with a sorc and 501 cp have the gall to tell a ps4 DK with 270 cp "l2p". Its like a beautiful woman bragging about winning a beauty pageant. Well if you were fat you wouldn't have won. Those of us on consoles playing DK are the fat girls.

Look, one of my closest friends and guild members is a magicka dk and he beat it after hours and hours of struggle. Another of my friends/guildies is a magicka templar and the same is true. One of my members is a stamina nb, and he was the first person to beat it on DC (on PC, and this is with all the "stam nbs can't do maelstrom" business circulating as of late). And guess what? One of my magicka sorcs spent hours upon hours of failing and restarting before he got it.

The point is, the struggle is real for everyone. What you have chosen to do here is take out your rage on a select group of people who, we can probably both admit, are jerks. I'd like to ask: as one of those fat girls in school, is the appropriate response to condemn everyone of a single category, much like has been done to you by that select group of jerks? Or is the appropriate response to recognize the actual issue, which is class balance, and take an adult, mature approach, such as making a constructive thread directed to ZOS?

ZoS only listens when the outcry is loud. Consider this one more decibel toward that loudness.

I have gold v16 everything, monster sets in every weight/trait, I copy mag dk builds that have beaten it on Youtube. I have beaten every piece of pve in the game.

It doesn't matter what I cast, or in what order. If anything I am regressing, as I made it to stage 3 the other night but only stage 2 last night. If I cant clear stage 3 with fully maxed gear, with over 1,000 hours on this character, and with dozens of hours of video watched, there isn't a single casual out there who can clear. Its not healthy, it's not good business practices.

With v16 weapons given out on normal, the vet arena will still have v16 Winterborn jewelry to chase, and leaderboards.
Oh and "Stormproof" would still be legitimate as a "look at me daddy!" accomplishment.

Autolycus · January 2016

Ezareth wrote: »

Yeah it took me 12 hours of overall learning before I was able to complete vMSA my first time. I died 128 times on it but hey I guess I'm just an elitist EZ-mode sorc.

Similar situation for me. I refrained from posting my actual success rate because I didn't think it was relevant, but I can see now it may carry some weight.

My main is a magicka NB, and before I get anybody worked up, understand that this is not the only character I've tried Maelstrom on. Due to not having an infinite amount of time yet, I am still working towards completes on my my alts, which are stam sorc and magicka dk.

That being said, the first time I went into vMA I got to the 3rd arena. This was prior to the change to stranglers. After the change, I was able to get further. I went into vMA on 4 separate occasions after that without progressing further than arena 5, save for 1 time, which I got partway through 6 (but not to the boss).

My first clear took me 5 1/2 hours in a single sitting, and somewhere between 120-130 lives. Also keep in mind that I'm surrounded by people who have completed it, and had valuable advice and strategies to offer.

I guess what I'm getting at here is that I didn't consider it even remotely easy, and that philosophy doesn't change when I move to one of my alts, or move to main to do it. It's really challenging, and that's just the truth of it.

I have some dk friends are really good players. They have great stats, good gear, and they know how to get out of stupid. They understand that practice makes perfect and are willing to spend the hours upon hours that are necessary to complete it. But they don't go around talking smack to every nb and sorc they see just because they have struggles. Those nbs and sorcs have their own struggles, and that's a fact.