@Cathexis If I am going to be turned into boots it better be 100% chance!

At this point I'd even take the existing passives and add a poison/disease damage bonus passive.

Seems appropriate racially and matches up to fire bonus for Dunmer for example. Thaumaturge in CP to complement.

taken from wiki: (shrug)

The Bow skill's Poison Arrow skill and its morphs.
The Acid Spray morph of the Bow's Arrow Spray skill.
The Lethal Arrow morph of the Bow's Snipe skill.
All weapons enchanted with a Glyph of Poison (using a Kuoko runestone).
Vampires' Mist Form morph, Poison Mist.
The spiders created by the synergy of the Undaunted's skill Trapping Webs, if using its Shadow Silk morph.
All weapons enchanted with a Glyph of Foulness (using a Haoko runestone).

So, yeah. They need to add some Disease and Poison morphs while they are at it

davey1107 wrote: »

Unless...can they swim across slaughterfish River in Cyrodiil?

No, trust me I've tried. If this actually worked it would be a useful passive, instead it makes us the slaughterfish version of fast food.

Flameheart wrote: »

House Dres likes Argonian passives as they are and wishes no change.

Some still wonder why we debated joining the pact. Besides this dryskins Dres angle of perspective, I too like our passives. Few angles to consider.
-swimming helps as an environmental tool. Anyone that has ever maneuvered around a post to evade a projectile, water allows distance from physical assault. The speed allows us to return quick to strike/attack. Agile shadowscale types.
-being of the kota-vimleel tribe, am well aware of how much we are a plant people, so experiencing advanced benefits from our mixtures makes sense. If anything increase the benefit factor. Potions are an additional ability on our tool bar. When applied wisely it is very effective.
- we are very resistant, durable, stable, energy balanced in such a way as that it's hard to harm us, poison + disease, wise yet easy to heal us. This helps co-operative tanks.
- Our easy restorative staff skill building helps our Tree-minders sorcerers excel early.
- Tamriel Online will continue to alter, and likely allow for our aspects to have more influence. Imagine throwing our poisonous alchemy mixtures like explosives and tainting our weapons. Imagine others seeking to harm us when our snakeblood immunity negates the effects. Imagine certain trials involving water mobility.

This is our first multiplayer tamriel experience. Much potential, we shall see.
Stay Moist

I like Argonians exactly the way they are. I've had an Argonian DragonKnight healer (yes, a fully dedicated DK healer) since beta. Granted, the passives alone don't make him a better healer than the next guy/gal. But he is a very strong healer (with healing springs crits for 7k+ per tick, healing ward crits for 30k+) and damn hard to take down (especially because of his own healing received, thanks to the passive).

He has just over 3k spell power buffed, 34k max magicka, using all divines and the ritual mundus. There is more damage potential with him, but I don't really use him for damage. On occasion I will add in some AOEs to speed trash along, or throw in a few single target skills during burn phases and such. Mostly he is built for massive healing potential and utility (chains, talons, etc.) and I don't have to do much damage, because most of the people I run with pull very high numbers already.

Edit: I should probably mention that I'm open to adjustments to their passives. I might just be one of those guys that really likes them as-is. That doesn't make it optimal, or mean that the rest of you don't have good suggestions for improvements.

Stranglehands wrote: »

argonians are cool

one of my favourite builds from morrowind, a male argonian acrobat using spear as the main weapon. basically like the oberyn martell guy from game of thrones but with less of the, erm, head trouble. i went around freeing all the slaves

Argonians aren't really Argonians without spears.

And they usually had a strong focus on illusion magic and guerilla warfare, which is not represented in ESO's passives at all. Their affinity for Alchemy is there, but the passive sucks (did it use to be good? I can't remember what it was before the change).

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO wrote: »

Autolycus wrote: »

I like Argonians exactly the way they are. I've had an Argonian DragonKnight healer (yes, a fully dedicated DK healer) since beta. Granted, the passives alone don't make him a better healer than the next guy/gal. But he is a very strong healer (with healing springs crits for 7k+ per tick, healing ward crits for 30k+) and damn hard to take down (especially because of his own healing received, thanks to the passive).

Yea that's great now run that build on a magic race and see how OP you healer gets it's a joke a complete joke and the reason I haven't even logged into the game is 3 weeks.

My healing springs outpace those of many Altmer and Breton Templars and my healing wards crit for more than many BoLs. I have a breton healer too, and my Argonian outheals him by far. The only thing I can't do is burst heal 3 targets to full in one cast, but I have learned to accommodate that as well. I can solo heal a lot of groups on him, including being the only healer on Mantikora for 100% burn method. My point is that I don't need to be a different race, or have my passives changed to make me better.

Autolycus wrote: »

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO wrote: »

Autolycus wrote: »

I like Argonians exactly the way they are. I've had an Argonian DragonKnight healer (yes, a fully dedicated DK healer) since beta. Granted, the passives alone don't make him a better healer than the next guy/gal. But he is a very strong healer (with healing springs crits for 7k+ per tick, healing ward crits for 30k+) and damn hard to take down (especially because of his own healing received, thanks to the passive).

Yea that's great now run that build on a magic race and see how OP you healer gets it's a joke a complete joke and the reason I haven't even logged into the game is 3 weeks.

My healing springs outpace those of many Altmer and Breton Templars and my healing wards crit for more than many BoLs. I have a breton healer too, and my Argonian outheals him by far. The only thing I can't do is burst heal 3 targets to full in one cast, but I have learned to accommodate that as well. I can solo heal a lot of groups on him, including being the only healer on Mantikora for 100% burn method. My point is that I don't need to be a different race, or have my passives changed to make me better.

You sure?

One thing is healing received, another completely different is healing done. Sure, you heal yourself for 7k crit with healing springs, but have you ever calculated how much you heal the guy next to you?

There's no way an Argonian will ever heal another guy better that any breton, altmer or dunmer

http://prntscr.com/9najjb

Autolycus wrote: »

Xvorg wrote: »

You sure?

One thing is healing received, another completely different is healing done. Sure, you heal yourself for 7k crit with healing springs, but have you ever calculated how much you heal the guy next to you?

There's no way an Argonian will ever heal another guy better that any breton, altmer or dunmer

http://prntscr.com/9najjb

I am absolutely positive. Nothing in my former post was relative to healing received, nor were any of the numbers I quoted on myself. I've tested my numbers on a variety of tanks in a variety of situations, using different addons. I've also tested the numbers on a variety of dps. I've literally stood right next to one of my top templar healers (another who can solo heal Mantikora) and watched her numbers hit me in my tank build (a different toon). She is a great healer, and I would say in terms of skill we are equal. But in terms of raw healing power, my numbers get higher.

The question here is this: Would I be a stronger healer as a different race?

The answer is likely yes, and I haven't actually disagreed with anyone who has stated that. My point has been, and still is, that I don't need to change Argonians to be good. I like them the way they are

Also, of Breton, Altmer, and Dunmer, which of those actually improves spell power or healing effectiveness? My healing effectiveness is derived from having a lot of spell power, high max magicka, and running divines with the ritual boon. All of these things can be achieved by any class.

Breton gives spell resist and magicka cost reduction. Altmer gives regen and max magicka. Dunmer gives max magicka. Still, all achievable with any race.

Autolycus wrote: »

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO wrote: »

Autolycus wrote: »

I like Argonians exactly the way they are. I've had an Argonian DragonKnight healer (yes, a fully dedicated DK healer) since beta. Granted, the passives alone don't make him a better healer than the next guy/gal. But he is a very strong healer (with healing springs crits for 7k+ per tick, healing ward crits for 30k+) and damn hard to take down (especially because of his own healing received, thanks to the passive).

Yea that's great now run that build on a magic race and see how OP you healer gets it's a joke a complete joke and the reason I haven't even logged into the game is 3 weeks.

My healing springs outpace those of many Altmer and Breton Templars and my healing wards crit for more than many BoLs. I have a breton healer too, and my Argonian outheals him by far. The only thing I can't do is burst heal 3 targets to full in one cast, but I have learned to accommodate that as well. I can solo heal a lot of groups on him, including being the only healer on Mantikora for 100% burn method. My point is that I don't need to be a different race, or have my passives changed to make me better.

Yea I'm going to go ahead and call Troll on that no way that's even close to true with Clone builds.

Bretons have 3% cheaper magic not much with CP now plus 10% more magic they can cast longer then your Argonian plus 10% magic means stronger heals

Altmer same as the Breton plus their regen bonus.

Dummer can block and roll more then other magic races.

Hell even Imperials can go all in magic and have good Health and Stamina for a Mage their is no way in hell with 10% more magic, more recovery, and cheaper spell cost that your Argonian was out healing them you can't have 10% more magic and get out healed by someone without it running the same build.

Not calling you a Troll but you trolling hard.

Edit: my normal Typos

Flameheart wrote: »

My guess is that some posters above still misunderstand the Argonian racial bonus...it's improved healing taken by the player only and not healing delivered to others (...and I know some people who chose an Argonian exactly due to such misreading).

Any other class with a + % magicka bonus as racial will cast higher heals concerning the same build, equip and CP distribution just because of the fact that skill power depends on the amount of your base ressource stat.

On another side it might not make any critical difference in endgame.

PS: Imho amassing up to 3k spell damage as a healer is wrong. It's not bad to have spell damage as a healer, but much more I want cost reduction / reg and if we talk about a secondary stat then it would be crit, but not spell damage. You can't expect to have always two absolute ultra dps in your group or raid, sometimes things last longer or someone dies and has to be rezzed. This is true for PvE and in addition even much more in PvP.

Nobody dies in this game because your BoL or HW heals for less. People die in this game because they get an unhealable onehit ("standing in stupid"), being out of range (might be the DD's mistake, might be the healer's mistake) or the healer was just to slow or he was out of magicka.

Autolycus wrote: »

Autolycus wrote: »

Xvorg wrote: »

You sure?

One thing is healing received, another completely different is healing done. Sure, you heal yourself for 7k crit with healing springs, but have you ever calculated how much you heal the guy next to you?

There's no way an Argonian will ever heal another guy better that any breton, altmer or dunmer

http://prntscr.com/9najjb

I am absolutely positive. Nothing in my former post was relative to healing received, nor were any of the numbers I quoted on myself. I've tested my numbers on a variety of tanks in a variety of situations, using different addons. I've also tested the numbers on a variety of dps. I've literally stood right next to one of my top templar healers (another who can solo heal Mantikora) and watched her numbers hit me in my tank build (a different toon). She is a great healer, and I would say in terms of skill we are equal. But in terms of raw healing power, my numbers get higher.

The question here is this: Would I be a stronger healer as a different race?

The answer is likely yes, and I haven't actually disagreed with anyone who has stated that. My point has been, and still is, that I don't need to change Argonians to be good. I like them the way they are

Also, of Breton, Altmer, and Dunmer, which of those actually improves spell power or healing effectiveness? My healing effectiveness is derived from having a lot of spell power, high max magicka, and running divines with the ritual boon. All of these things can be achieved by any class.

Breton gives spell resist and magicka cost reduction. Altmer gives regen and max magicka. Dunmer gives max magicka. Still, all achievable with any race.

Max magicka means more powerful spells, in the same way max stamina means more powerful WBs

Just try any healing without food and with food

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO wrote: »

Yea I'm going to go ahead and call Troll on that no way that's even close to true with Clone builds.

Bretons have 3% cheaper magic not much with CP now plus 10% more magic they can cast longer then your Argonian plus 10% magic means stronger heals

Altmer same as the Breton plus their regen bonus.

Dummer can block and roll more then other magic races.

Hell even Imperials can go all in magic and have good Health and Stamina for a Mage their is no way in hell with 10% more magic, more recovery, and cheaper spell cost that your Argonian was out healing them you can't have 10% more magic and get out healed by someone without it running the same build.

Not calling you a Troll but you trolling hard.

Edit: my normal Typos

Call me what you want, it's tested and proven and I have many people who have seen me do it firsthand. Just because you don't know how to accomplish it, doesn't make it false.

The fact of the matter is that no matter what race you choose, it's easy to get between 32-38k max magicka, period. Just because your racial passive hands it to you doesn't mean that you are inherently better than any other classes.

The reason my DK pulls off these heals is because he is DK. It has nothing to do with his race. Casting Igneous Shield grants Major Mending, which is a 30% increase to ALL healing effectiveness for 7 seconds. With a pure magicka build, this can be maintained indefinitely. Stack all divines with ritual mundus, 3k spell power, and 34k max magicka, and yeah, your heals are gonna hit for that much.

Flameheart wrote: »

My guess is that some posters above still misunderstand the Argonian racial bonus...it's improved healing taken by the player only and not healing delivered to others (...and I know some people who chose an Argonian exactly due to such misreading).

Any other class with a + % magicka bonus as racial will cast higher heals concerning the same build, equip and CP distribution just because of the fact that skill power depends on the amount of your base ressource stat.

On another side it might not make any critical difference in endgame.

PS: Imho amassing up to 3k spell damage as a healer is wrong. It's not bad to have spell damage as a healer, but much more I want cost reduction / reg and if we talk about a secondary stat then it would be crit, but not spell damage. You can't expect to have always two absolute ultra dps in your group or raid, sometimes things last longer or someone dies and has to be rezzed. This is true for PvE and in addition even much more in PvP.

Nobody dies in this game because your BoL or HW heals for less. People die in this game because they get an unhealable onehit ("standing in stupid"), being out of range (might be the DD's mistake, might be the healer's mistake) or the healer was just to slow or he was out of magicka.

I have tested the spell power theory, as have many others I know, and stacking spell power as a healer is statistically proven to be more effective, so long as stacking spell power doesn't reduce max magicka, spell crit, etc. It's about optimizing everything, not just one or two stats. What else would you invest in, if you already have the magicka/regen/crit that is needed to effectively heal?

The last build I used on my healer only had about 1200 spell damage, all else remained relatively constant. After switching a few things around, again keeping everything else constant, I was able to increase that spell power to 3k. This was a huge improvement. Where my healing springs crits were ticking between 4.5-6k before, they now tick between 6.5-7.5k.

And yes, I am fully aware that the Argonian passives are for healing received, and not healing done. That was the whole reason I posted to begin with, so please read before commenting. The point I make is that I like Argonian passives the way they are, and I don't feel the need for them to change. That doesn't mean there's not a better passive for Argonians, or that we can't all have our own ideas on how to improve them.

Xvorg wrote: »

Autolycus wrote: »

Xvorg wrote: »

Max magicka means more powerful spells, in the same way max stamina means more powerful WBs

Just try any healing without food and with food

Everyone knows that max magicka increases healing effectiveness. The point I make is that it doesn't matter what race you choose, because you can achieve very high max magicka on any race. I don't need a passive to make that true.

It does matter

I suggest you to try the same build with your argonian and with a Dunmer

10% extra magicka when you have 30k magicka is 3 K. 3 K magicka is aprox 100 spell power.

If I can already achieve those numbers, then why do I need more magicka? The increase in magicka can come from a variety of places, like glyphs, wearing all light armor, etc. I can already cast indefinitely. I can shield indefinitely. I have already acknowledged that the increase in magicka could increase healing potential (again, people aren't reading before posting). Still, my point is that I don't need the passive to be a strong healer.
Edit: 100 spell power really isn't that much. Yes, it is an improvement. But if it means playing a class I don't want to play, only for 100 SP? I can do better than that with a single glyph.

I would like for people to discuss Argonian passives, is that not why we are here? People have been claiming that DKs can't heal for a long time. Even my own guildmates criticized it, and I proved them wrong. Now they support me and will attest to these numbers, because they've seen it. But none of that really matters, because I play an Argonian because I like it, and I won't change because I can play competitively the way I am.

@Autolycus I think the reason there is a backlash is not that you cannot heal well but that your ability to do so is in no way linked to the Argonians passives and hence a number of other races would be more optimal from a minute/max perspective. You play an Argonian for the same reason as everyone else... you like Argonians. Not for the passives.