Let's talk about gap close spamming.

Sykotical · January 2016

I don't agree with the minimum distance requirement on ambush (because Steven Gould), but I understand it may be necessary to combat the desperate (yet effective) tactics used against the OP.

The true issue is the fact that there exists abilities that are so convenient that some people can't help themselves from spamming one move because it's the only way they can get by. Cheap/op/spammable abilities shouldn't be "fixed" in the manner of bolt escape or dodge roll. That's just a step away from giving cooldowns to every ability and, last I checked, no one here wants that.

Waffennacht · January 2016

Fyi gap closer aren't there to stop streak (or bolt escape) they are there to close the gab during battle, not necessarily catch a fleeing opponent. A fleeing opponent is suppose to die to an execute.

I dunno where the whole "bolt escape shouldn't allow sorcs to escape"mentality came from.

Ahk1lleez · January 2016

As a stam weapon damage DK I will admit to stampeding on a spam-level basis...but only against dodge roll spamming targets that make it impossible for any of my other DPS attacks to land. Nerfing gap closing abilities would thus give dodge roll spammers an immediate and large advantage. If the intention is to nerf gap closing abilities...dodge roll spam needs to also be dealt with in a way that is comparable. Perhaps increasing the cost of subsequent dodge rolls set off within a certain amount of time would be the counterweight.

Waffennacht · January 2016

Ahk1lleez wrote: »

As a stam weapon damage DK I will admit to stampeding on a spam-level basis...but only against dodge roll spamming targets that make it impossible for any of my other DPS attacks to land. Nerfing gap closing abilities would thus give dodge roll spammers an immediate and large advantage. If the intention is to nerf gap closing abilities...dodge roll spam needs to also be dealt with in a way that is comparable. Perhaps increasing the cost of subsequent dodge rolls set off within a certain amount of time would be the counterweight.

That's how it works with roll dodge...

italia366 · January 2016

Morozov wrote: »

nord said it....minimum distance. No need to change abilities or CP or percentages of whatever. Make a gap closer a GAP closer. Once the gap is closed, use other abilities.

This. In WoW, warriors can only charge if they are 8-25 yards from their enemy. This is the only thing that really needs to be changed.

Honestly i think gap closer immunity is stupid. If 1 guy gap closes on you and his buddy wants to help, he should be able to gap close as well. Youre fighting two people, they should both be able to use their abilities.

the issue is the SPAM, which empowers each ambush as well, which leaves no room for counterplay

A minimum distance is what needs to be added.

Wing · January 2016

gap close spam was a result of the streak / roll dodge spam.

arcantonias · January 2016

Everyone fails to understand that every gap closer DOES have a minimum distance with the exception of ambush. Its already been pointed out in multiple posts. If you are fighting someone with crit rush it is your choice to kite and once you reach that mimimum distance they could crit rush again. That is your choice and not having something like javelin or bash or fear to combat something like idiot nightblades spambushing you is your problem. I see no problem with any other gap closer and if a nightblade thinks he is gonna kill me by spamming ambush he will learn quickly that its not gonna happen.

Brrrofski · January 2016

Make ambush have a minimum distance (it's a morph of teleport strike - what's the need of teleporting when on top of someone?) and stop gap closers locking you out of skills (which they all do for a very brief time, but enough to screw over a heal or weapon swap). Problem solved.

Although OP, as a Stam sorc, crit rush can be a real life saver due to the guaranteed crit.

Huggalump · January 2016

tplink3r1 wrote: »

LOL, people want melee to be nerfed even more?

Real quick: I love the discussion going on here, so i'm not going to reply to every thread. Most of you guys know a whole lot more than me, and there seem to be people on both sides of the fence. So now that the discussion is going, I'm gonna try to let you guys carry it cause you can do it better than me.

However, this is one reply I wanted to comment on real quick. I do NOT want melee nerfed. I've been stamina the entire life of my character, even though I'm a Sorc. I went magicka a few times, but it only lasted a week or two. Again, I am NOT asking for melee to be nerfed.

What I am asking for is for abilities to be reworked, because at the moment I believe gap closers--or some gap closers-- are poorly designed. "Poorly designed" meaning they make the game unfun.

What I'm asking for is for gap closers to be reworked to do less damage and have more utility. This is not a nerf. This is a side-grade.

However, this is just my opinion. A lot of other people are introducing a lot of other insightful ideas that are probably better than mine, which is great because that's why I made the thread. Gap closers are a problem as they stand now, and I want solutions that are healthier for the game.

Brrrofski · January 2016

arcantonias wrote: »

Everyone fails to understand that every gap closer DOES have a minimum distance with the exception of ambush. Its already been pointed out in multiple posts. If you are fighting someone with crit rush it is your choice to kite and once you reach that mimimum distance they could crit rush again. That is your choice and not having something like javelin or bash or fear to combat something like idiot nightblades spambushing you is your problem. I see no problem with any other gap closer and if a nightblade thinks he is gonna kill me by spamming ambush he will learn quickly that its not gonna happen.

The problem lies with multiple stamblades doing it. There's a lot of then as well.

Gap closers briefly root you. Maybe so you have a fixed point so it can calculate where the caster end up.. I don't know. Anyway, they do. This locks you up. Can't do skills or anything for a tiny amount of time.

Normal gap closers have a minimum distance so can't keep locking you out of skills. When you have two NBs spamming it (on purpose may I add, because people know what they're doing) you're locked up for quite a while on and off. Can't fight back, can't heal, can't anything.

With a minimum range, you have a chance. You stand your ground or stay on top of someone. When NBs are right on top of you spamming it, you are utterly defenceless. There lies the problem. It need a minimum range. Same as above applies to lotus fan too.

Sykotical · January 2016

Brrrofski wrote: »

Make ambush have a minimum distance (it's a morph of teleport strike - what's the need of teleporting when on top of someone?) and stop gap closers locking you out of skills (which they all do for a very brief time, but enough to screw over a heal or weapon swap). Problem solved.

Although OP, as a Stam sorc, crit rush can be a real life saver due to the guaranteed crit.

It's not that it's needed so much as it is simply possible. The other gap closers require momentum so it makes sense for a teleport strike to succeed close range when a shield charge would not.

But, again, I would concede to the minimum distance requirement for the sake of deterring spambushers. Although, again, the real problem is the fact that certain abilities remain effective when spammed to the point that one ability can invalidate OP's entire arsenal and the zergs weapon of choice is to spam whatever AOE endlessly. The solution ZOS chose for BE and dodge roll sucks because it's a gateway to cooldowns. Cooldowns can't happen because that will lead to scripted rotations which would make combat in this game lifeless.

Brrrofski wrote: »

arcantonias wrote: »

Everyone fails to understand that every gap closer DOES have a minimum distance with the exception of ambush. Its already been pointed out in multiple posts. If you are fighting someone with crit rush it is your choice to kite and once you reach that mimimum distance they could crit rush again. That is your choice and not having something like javelin or bash or fear to combat something like idiot nightblades spambushing you is your problem. I see no problem with any other gap closer and if a nightblade thinks he is gonna kill me by spamming ambush he will learn quickly that its not gonna happen.

The problem lies with multiple stamblades doing it. There's a lot of then as well.

Gap closers briefly root you. Maybe so you have a fixed point so it can calculate where the caster end up.. I don't know. Anyway, they do. This locks you up. Can't do skills or anything for a tiny amount of time.

Normal gap closers have a minimum distance so can't keep locking you out of skills. When you have two NBs spamming it (on purpose may I add, because people know what they're doing) you're locked up for quite a while on and off. Can't fight back, can't heal, can't anything.

With a minimum range, you have a chance. You stand your ground or stay on top of someone. When NBs are right on top of you spamming it, you are utterly defenceless. There lies the problem. It need a minimum range. Same as above applies to lotus fan too.

Also, OP's recollection was over Critical Rush being spammed against a bow user that would rather be at range. It's not Ambush. It's the Spam.

Emma_Overload · January 2016

Gap closers are just one of several reasons the Bow feels so weak in PvP. Here are my experiences using a Bow build in the IC sewers:

1) Ineffective against Nightblades.

2) Ineffective against Sorcerers.

3) Ineffective against Templars.

4) SUICIDAL against Dragonknights. Enjoying Sniping yourself to death!

The source of all this weaksauce is ZOS devs' ridiculous refusal to admit that there is no such thing as "ranged" combat in PvP. Every single adversary is up in your face 24/7, and there are NO escape or gap-opening mechanics that haven't been nerfed into uselessness.

kadar · January 2016

Yeah this thread is a bunch of different things all wrapped into one discussion post. Makes it really hard to focus on anything.

1) Invisible short duration root(snare!?) that is applied upon using a gap closer-- I believe is being addressed by ZoS.
^This is btw the whole reason people started spamming Ambush. There are much better ways to kill people in Pvp, as Ambush damage is low (and has higher stam cost) compared to other abilities on the bar.

2) Continuously trying to run away from 2 Nbs spamming Ambush is not counter-play. Killing/CCing 1 of them is.
In a practical sense for this situation, Line of sight helps a lot. Although Ambush is technically instant, it really isn't. It has a short "wind-up" period before the spell actually goes off. Seriously tho, they are so wrapped up pressing "1" they won't see the Meteor coming.

3) I have also found Bow to be an extremely ineffective main source of damage except when used from stealth, or against inexperienced opponents. Most people who are successful w/ bow (and I consider myself among them) use it more for stealth bombs, utility, and buffs than a main source of damage.

Schurge · January 2016

In a game with no defensive cool downs and spammable ranged attacks sometimes I have no choice but to spam Ambush or Critical Rush and neither of those are going to do me any good against a competent Magicka Sorc / Magicka Nightblade. L2P issue? Oh most definitely, but so is complaining about Ambush or Critical Rush.

Toxie50 · January 2016

I might be reading you wrong but doesnt you get CC immunity for a period of time when you break free ?

pogopwns_ESO · January 2016

A stam sorc has no right to complain about ambush. This means you, and certain streamers I won't name that people actually think are good, but they cry all the time when they get killed, because the game is broken if they can't 1vZerg, obviously. I shouldn't have to explain just how much more viable crit rush with crit surge is than ambush. It heals the *** out of you! I know what you're thinking."Wait, what? You can streak to create a gap AND cc at the same time, then crit rush to close the gap, healing yourself by doing it?!" Yes. Yes you can. "Can you also parse the animation on WB to make it hit faster with a light attack bump in between, and still hit someone with it from 15 meters away because they're running from you, even though the range is supposed to be 7 meters?" Again, yes. Yes you certainly can. "Does that heal you as well? While you have crit surge up, healing from DOING the damage, Not having as much need to stop damage and heal?" You guessed it. Yes. Unequivocally yes. "Does WB give an empower?" You catch on fast. Yes.
Go cry somewhere else please. If you as a stam sorc can't fight 2 nightblades, it's not because ambush is broken. It's because you need to change your tactics as a stam sorc. I have a level 30 stam dk with a 2h sword, and I can take out 2 v16 nightblades with almost nothing but crit rush and WB. And I dont even have the wonderous ability called crit surge! It really is amazing. A level 30! I really don't want to be condescending or mean, but I'm so tired of hearing the same QQ over ambush or "gap closing" when its really not that big of a deal, nor an imbalance. By the way, go out on your nb and ambush spam. It's not really instant. the animation makes it take about .5 - .75 second to impact and it does pretty low damage itself.
I have a v16 gank build stam nb, a v16 frag build magicka sorc, a v16 magicka sword/board templar healer, and a 30 stam dk burger flipper. I PvP on all of them pretty much equally. No nightblade(s) give me too many problems on any toon, but out of all of them, my nb is the most fragile and easiest to kill. And ambush spam is one of the easiest ways to get yourself killed as a nb. It's literally impractical to use unles your target runs away and you need to close the gap.
All that being said, I wouldn't be opposed to a min range, because it affects a GOOD nb not one bit. If you are at face range and you ambush you are BAD! Surprise attack is 100% better at face range than ambush, hands down.

TheBonesXXX · January 2016

r.jan_emailb16_ESO wrote: »

TheBonesXXX wrote: »

r.jan_emailb16_ESO wrote: »

Agreed, gap closer shouldn't be a reliable source of dealing damage. Especially not when they come with additional utility (empower, knockdown, root, you name it).

As for the counter, someone from ZOS said that they'll remove the root and put a snare on you instead... not sure how that will turn out, but sounds better than not being able to move at all.

That means everything gets nerfed.

How so? A minimum range requirement for Ambush would be sufficient, as has already been suggested.

So first they'll start with the utility that Gap Closers provide, but what about Triple Snipe animation canceling? Far more lethal than Ambush spam and you still don't get close to the Bow user whos executed the maneuver (provided they're intelligent), because you just drop dead.

Or what about Triple Dark Flare canceling, you just drop dead from afar.

You don't even get to use a gap closer because a player who executes these makes the other player drop dead. (which is fine imo)

I do not like the idea of a minimum range requirement built into the skills because those spaces should be created by the players through use of skills and mechanics in the game, especially when the ranged abilities no longer require a minimum ranged requirement.

I proposed a list of mechanical changes here.

http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/239574/a-proposed-list-of-mechanical-changes-as-cont-in-thread#latest

As it was inspired by this post to generate even more discussion on a wider ray of mechanics in the game that could use change.

Digiman · January 2016

This game has always been melee > ranged.

I don't see Wrobel or any of the combat team up and deciding to change their launch long scheme for "balance" especially with the hard nerfs he has given to ranged damage.

You want to go Bow? Rerolling NB seems to be the only solution. I don't see that changing any time soon either.

Eitherway get ready to be pounded like a piece of meat from endless gap closers from melee.

Brrrofski · January 2016

Sykotical wrote: »

Brrrofski wrote: »

Make ambush have a minimum distance (it's a morph of teleport strike - what's the need of teleporting when on top of someone?) and stop gap closers locking you out of skills (which they all do for a very brief time, but enough to screw over a heal or weapon swap). Problem solved.

Although OP, as a Stam sorc, crit rush can be a real life saver due to the guaranteed crit.

It's not that it's needed so much as it is simply possible. The other gap closers require momentum so it makes sense for a teleport strike to succeed close range when a shield charge would not.

But, again, I would concede to the minimum distance requirement for the sake of deterring spambushers. Although, again, the real problem is the fact that certain abilities remain effective when spammed to the point that one ability can invalidate OP's entire arsenal and the zergs weapon of choice is to spam whatever AOE endlessly. The solution ZOS chose for BE and dodge roll sucks because it's a gateway to cooldowns. Cooldowns can't happen because that will lead to scripted rotations which would make combat in this game lifeless.

Brrrofski wrote: »

arcantonias wrote: »

Everyone fails to understand that every gap closer DOES have a minimum distance with the exception of ambush. Its already been pointed out in multiple posts. If you are fighting someone with crit rush it is your choice to kite and once you reach that mimimum distance they could crit rush again. That is your choice and not having something like javelin or bash or fear to combat something like idiot nightblades spambushing you is your problem. I see no problem with any other gap closer and if a nightblade thinks he is gonna kill me by spamming ambush he will learn quickly that its not gonna happen.

The problem lies with multiple stamblades doing it. There's a lot of then as well.

Gap closers briefly root you. Maybe so you have a fixed point so it can calculate where the caster end up.. I don't know. Anyway, they do. This locks you up. Can't do skills or anything for a tiny amount of time.

Normal gap closers have a minimum distance so can't keep locking you out of skills. When you have two NBs spamming it (on purpose may I add, because people know what they're doing) you're locked up for quite a while on and off. Can't fight back, can't heal, can't anything.

With a minimum range, you have a chance. You stand your ground or stay on top of someone. When NBs are right on top of you spamming it, you are utterly defenceless. There lies the problem. It need a minimum range. Same as above applies to lotus fan too.

Also, OP's recollection was over Critical Rush being spammed against a bow user that would rather be at range. It's not Ambush. It's the Spam.

I know he was, but the thread has moved on.

Plus you can't really spam the others as like I said, you can just stay in their face.

No minimum range means it is spammable

Vangy · January 2016

Ranged damage eats a nerf due to pve. 90% of fights in pve just punish meelee builds beyond reason. That being said my dk runs a 2h/bow in pvp. And I love my bow. People don't realise the utility it brings.

2h bar: standard stam dk ( crit Rush, Wb, exec, fossilize/scales, rally)

Bow: poison injection, bombard, shuffle, igneous, vigor

When someone is spamming a gap closer I hit them bombard, dodge roll followed by light Attack+ injection. Now bow light attacks do sick amounts of damage and poison injection is a pretty solid dot. So many times Low hp people getting away get taken by surprise and killed by this dot . Now this person is going to most definitely gap close on me so I start charging a heavy Attack on my 2h bar. When he reaches me follow up with fossilze>leap/Wb. Boom mindless gap close spammer dead.

On my sorc its hellava even easier to deal with gap close spammer. Curse>streak>mines. Watch spammer run into mines. Crystal frag in the face. Boom dead.

Of course 5 people spamming GAP close is gona get me killed but 5 people spamming anything is also going to get you killed so...

Waffennacht · January 2016

Well almost any move is avoidable if you can see it coming. Yeah streak is a good move if your opponent is winding up in the middle of a field.

But most battles that are in small scale start off from stealth/cloak.

It's when you get gap closer stunned outta nowhere followed up by an unstoppable AC WB (due to unbreakable stun) followed by said stun or someone whom can time the WB spam. Or just two NBs spamming ambush for the gg.

The single most important thing in PvP Now due to the insanely high dmg is CC break. Just 2 seconds under a hard CC is death.

Resource management was key, but in the world of 22k heavy attacks and WBs, there is no time to use all that magicka.

Range is a joke, unless you're backed by a group, there is no range PvP.

acw37162 · January 2016

I'm less these days about any nerfs to nightblades or sorcs so much as I am a buff to Dragon Nights and Templars.

There is almost nothing to fear from a stamina Templar these days and outside of Dragon leap very little to fear from a stamina Dragon Night.

The lack of mobility for both Templars and Dragon Nights has really been exposed this patch at least it feels that way to me.

Although the I'm not all opposed to cost increase or ability fatigue on almost every instacast damage ability in the game not only increasing the cost of the ability the more you spam it but increasing the fatigue exponentially as well.

I also think fatigue should be completely canceled by a heavy or medium attack (by medium I mean any non-fully charged heavy attack)

Also not opposed to them not stacking cost but I find players running though the middle of every fight spamming steel tornado every bit as annoying as spam bush night blade and shield stacking streaking sorc.

Leandor · January 2016

You realize that the main issue (no chance of retaliation) with spambush will not be fixed with a min range, since the nightblade is uniquely capable of creating distance without chance of retaliation due to cloak?

The main issue for me with gap closers is ability lockout. Get gapclosed, no dodge, no block, no shields, no heals. Get spammed with gapclosers, you're dead if they come with half a second gap (and there are enough teams that are able to pull it off).

Remove ability lockout and allow dodge, the problem is solved.

Cathexis · January 2016

I'm putting down this game until gap closer root is fixed.

Its just rediculous.

TheBull · January 2016

You know what's funny? I never noticed anything different until people started crying. I still can't really tell.

You know what I really think? The same people crying about champ points are crying about this.

L2p nothing to see here.

Undoctrinated · January 2016

my own issues w/ gap closers...

1. they shouldn't stop me from moving unless its actually a cc. its like i just stand there waiting for the animation to finish. i shouldn't have to dodge roll to keep moving forward..that gets expensive real quick. i don't mind taking the damage, but why am i just standing there waiting for it to connect?
2. i believe ambush/lotus fan needs a minimum range requirement..ur already in my face, what gap are you closing?

Angarato · January 2016

i would not mind at all if it had min distance and less damage if it gave me the same snare as stampede gives. i dont spambush so that would be a very sweet change for my playstyle.

Waffennacht · January 2016

I think people whom say L2P assume that we are speaking 1v1, in 1v1 yes a roll dodge timed correctly can prevent the perma stun.

However, when facing multiple enemies, the root means death as you cannot block that 20k Wb/Frag etc.. you cannot prevent the second NB from perma stunning you in conjunction.

Quite literally its a NB usin it to prevent you from reacting and a second player using this time to AC 3 moves to insta gib you.

If you think we be talkin 1v1 you need to L2P

josh.lackey_ESO · January 2016

We need a melee reflect.

Cathexis · January 2016

TheBull wrote: »

You know what's funny? I never noticed anything different until people started crying. I still can't really tell.

You know what I really think? The same people crying about champ points are crying about this.

L2p nothing to see here.

>< @TheBull I started using reteating maneuvers - oh wait that doesnt break or provide immunity to the 100% 1s root.
I started using CC break - oh wait that doesnt break or provide immunity to the 100% 1s root.

Please explain to me how one learns to play against the unbreakable 1s gap closer root.

You probably didnt notice it because you are probably not playing a mobility dependent class.

Looks like you are a magicka nightblade? Yeah you have the most powerful class for using the unbreakable 1s gap closer root.

Soooooo your opinion here is somewhat biased.