Discussion: How to properly balance this game for both PvP and PvE

Refuse2GrowUp · December 2015

This idea has come up in discussions in other threads.

It would seem properly balancing this game is singularly the biggest hurdle this dev team faces. How can you adjust one skill to balance it for PvP without effecting PvE? How can you properly set limitations for PvP without weakening PvE? How can you scale end-game PvE without effecting damage and TTK in PvP?

We all love this game (some more than others), but we often find ourselves in one of two camps: Those fighting for balance and fair competition in PvP and those fighting for competitive, difficult end-game PvE content. The dev team's seeming ineptness to properly balance the game causes and flames this division.

Personally, I am PvX ~ I enjoy both PvE and PvP. Furthermore, I play all the classes (tho am admittedly a master of none). So, it is a bit easier to step back and view arguments from all sides when discussing class balance and PvP vs. PvE issues. I have come to believe the ONLY way for the dev team to properly balance the game is to have separate profiles for both PvP and PvP. By this, I mean all of your skills and morphs, and even CP investments, are different for PvP than they are for PvE. When you are not in Cyrodiil (or IC or any future PvP area) you are automatically in your PvE profile. When you load into Cyrodiil or a PvP enabled area, your will automatically be put into your PvP profile. By having separate profiles, the devs can more carefully review and change classes, skills, and mechanics. I.e. say a certain skill is over powered or causing an imbalance in PvP but the PvE community relies upon it heavily and changing it might effect everyone's ability to clear end-game content, the devs can adjust ot change the skill for PvP profiles but it will have zero effect on PvE profiles (or vice versa).

Some examples include:
* The heavily criticized decision to remove stamina regeneration while blocking due to the abuse of perma blocking in PvP (and to some extent PvE also). This mechanic can effect PvP but not PvE.
* Same in regards to the increased cost for consecutive dodge rolls...(arguably) necessary for PvP but hurts PvE.
* Evil/Camo Hunter is a skill many call OP and want nerfed/changed in PvP. However, it is undeniably effective in PvE.
* The impending nerf of Steel Tornado and past nerfs of Impulse and Wall of Elements...(arguably) necessary for PvP but will/has hurt PvE builds and group compositions.
* Changes/nerfs for Purge and Retrieving Maneuvers are being discussed for PvP; these skills can remain untouched for PvE
* Shield stacking an issue...the devs have the ability to decide a changes that will effect PvP and PvE differently.
* Staff damage nerfed to compensate for the 'safety of range' in PvP...damage could remain unchanged for pvE
***This list is neither all-inclusive nor representative of popular opinion or proper balance. It is merely food for thought

Simply, having two different profiles allows the dev team to independently balance the game to ensure the best interests of both PvP and PvE.

In addition to classes, skills, and mechanics, this could extend to CP limitations as well. There have been numerous threads calling for the reinstatement of soft caps or lowering the percentages of CP buffs. Should the community and the dev team feel this necessary, CP percentages and/or soft caps can be implemented for PvP but be programmed to not effect PvE and thus end-game dungeon/trial scaling. Especially considering a rework of the CP system might be in the works (see thread: http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/237255/champion-system-ability-review/p1)

Lastly, tho far less a consideration than a proper balance feature, this also serves as a quality of life feature for the player base. Because we would have separate profiles, we could invest our skill points in different skills/morphs for PvP than we would PvP (i.e.say I want Luminous Shards for PvE and Blazing Shards for PvP or for PvP I would rather invest skill points in FG skills but for PvE I want more healing and utility skills) or even invest CPs differently for PvP than PvE (i.e. in PvP I want 100 Thaumaturge for my Templar but want Blessed and more Elfborn for PvE, or simply I want to invest in Resistant {reduced crit damage} for PvP but want these points invested elsewhere for PvE).

Anyway, sorry for the wall of text. I would love to hear everyone's thoughts and opinions on the subject. Two heads are better than one~

Dev team - I know such an idea would mean a substantial recode, but personally I feel this is something that will help fix a myriad of the current issues and help protect the shelf life of the game so that we, your loyal player base, are still here to strategize and complain on these very forums for years to come. Hope it is worth considering. Respectfully~

Note: I am writing this after pulling an all-nighter. I'm not taking the time to proof read. Please forgive any incoherent thoughts, grammatical errors, or misspellings.

MercyKilling · December 2015

Have a set of "PvP stats" for armors, weapons, etc that are only effective when flagged for PvP as you would be for Cyrodiil and the other PvP content, and a separate, unaffected by PvP "balance" changes every month, PvE stats that only change when you level or improve upon your gear/abilities/etc.

That is the only way to "balance" PvP and PvE as far as a character is concerned. Total and complete separation of the stats.

Congratulations, you got it right.

Jura23 · December 2015

MercyKilling wrote: »

Have a set of "PvP stats" for armors, weapons, etc that are only effective when flagged for PvP as you would be for Cyrodiil and the other PvP content, and a separate, unaffected by PvP "balance" changes every month, PvE stats that only change when you level or improve upon your gear/abilities/etc.

That is the only way to "balance" PvP and PvE as far as a character is concerned. Total and complete separation of the stats.

Congratulations, you got it right.

And how exactly would you implement such thing so ppl don't have to respec each time.

Refuse2GrowUp · December 2015

Jura23 wrote: »

MercyKilling wrote: »

Have a set of "PvP stats" for armors, weapons, etc that are only effective when flagged for PvP as you would be for Cyrodiil and the other PvP content, and a separate, unaffected by PvP "balance" changes every month, PvE stats that only change when you level or improve upon your gear/abilities/etc.

That is the only way to "balance" PvP and PvE as far as a character is concerned. Total and complete separation of the stats.

Congratulations, you got it right.

And how exactly would you implement such thing so ppl don't have to respec each time.

I laid out how I think it would best work in the massive wall of text. Sorry for the lengthy read...tried to be thorough with such an important topic.

Obviously, it would require quite a bit of work on the dev side to code. But once implemented, it would be seemless for us players, and it would likely make for a much easier to balance and expand game as we get further into the game's shelf life

Lysette · December 2015

I find the whole idea that it would have to be balanced at all weird - where in the real world you find and have balanced wars. The whole point of going to war is that you feel as if you have won it upfront already - just like Sun Tzu said in his "the art of war". When US attacked Iraq then Iraq is not scaled up to the standards of the US - that is how war is like, it is not balanced at all. Actually the differences makes it interesting, where every faction would have to find their tactics - and not all are using the same. This can be successful as well, look at Afghanistan.

But as this is an MMO content, you are referring to, I would agree to most you said, @Refuse2GrowUp

Frawr · December 2015

I fundamentally disagree with your main premise..

The way to balance both is to look at the original design: managing resources.

Currently, we don't have to manage resources. We have a number of classes with unlimited resources and massive burst damage because it is too easy to stack both.

Until we are actually limited by our resources, no changes are going to make any difference. Dodge roll nerf, streak nerf, block nerf - all window dressing. Simply not facing the bigger issue. Can't face the bigger issue because - would ruin CP system.

Sadly, I have no answer for that.

Perhaps instead - since we have massive damage bursting nightblades and shield spamming sorcs, I see no reason why we can't have perma-blocking tank DKs.

Add block cost reduction passives to the DK tree.

NBrookus · January 2016

While I like the idea of profiles, I suspect it wouldn't be an efficient use of dev time. Lag kills me a lot more than having Inner Light instead of Radiant Magelight. I'd rather be able to switch morphs - in Cyrodil or elsewhere, just like I can armor and weapons - without going to a respec shrine. Switching up CP and every skill is overkill, IMO.

jhharvest · January 2016

It doesn't sound like a big deal to me from a coding perspective.

I've also thought that one option would be to just have completely separate characters for PVP and PVE, so you can't even take your PVE char to Cyrodiil and vice versa.

Refuse2GrowUp · January 2016

@NBrookus the QoL aspect (i.e. the ability to have different skills and morphs for PvP vs PvE) is merely a fringe benefit. The bigger issue being addressed is the ability for the devs to balance the game. Aside from server lag, the most critical issue in the game is the devs seeming inability to balance classes, skills, mechanics, CP limitations, and possibly even caps to have a positive effect on either PvP or PvE without ruining the other. Ever action taken to balance PvP often has a negative effect on PvE and vice versa.

@Frawr I agree, to an extent, that resource management should be a bigger focus, and even that there should be more CP limitations. However, I think these issues are more critical for PvP than PvE. For the most part, I think PvE is fine as is (less maybe the stam regen while blocking issue). I think imposing resource management changes and soft capping CP benefits would ruin PvE. Tho, this may be fixeable by having the separate profiles...thus the devs could address resource management in PvP and consider reducing CP buff percentages without these changes having any effect on PvE. Thoughts?

@jhharvest Do you mean that you create and level one character for PvP and and completely level a second for PvE? Although the idea works on the same premise as mine, provided that skills and class balances were independent of each other and the devs could change skills for one without effecting the other, I think there might be some resistance from the community to the idea as many don't want to level additional toons and have to go thru the grind for each (tho personally I enjoy it)...especially if the two toons counted toward the 8 toon max cap. The other question or idea brings up, is how would PvP toons get undaunted XP or skills and how would the PvE toons get PvP skills?

eliisra · January 2016

I would love dual spec's or different profiles. My arm is exhausted from constantly having to click click change 501 CP and morphs when switching between PvE, PvP and vMA. It's so user unfriendly I feel like crying.

But there's still a problem with having different mechanics and skill strengths in different zones. There's PvE going on in PvP zones.

What if I want to go level my stamina sorc on NPC's in IC or in Crack Wood Cave? But Tornado has less range and execute dmg in these maps because zergs abused the skill. But me, I'm just killing mobs. Would have to go grind Greenshade perhaps, just to get Steel Tornado working normally. Had I used another build, like magicka and Impulse, I wouldn't be penalized for grinding in a PvP zone. Isn't that a bit unfair?

As long as there's all these PvE objectives and content in PvP zones, it's hard to separate I think. Both Cyrodiil and IC has PvE quest lines, daily quests, events and of course grinding spots. So should some builds really have more trouble completing these things, because taking place in a zone where there's also PvP?

Asherons_Call · January 2016

You want to know how to balance it? Create a PVP server

Sausage · January 2016

Rift was balanced and is dead now? You really think that has something to do with the success of this game or no. Just keep it zerg/mass-PVP game and minor balance issue slips through, no a big deal.

Refuse2GrowUp · January 2016

@eliisra Fact of the matter is, these grind spots, or even simply playing Imperial City IS PvP. Like it or not. And whether we like it or not, the devs have highlighted Steel Tornado as a skill that will be nerfed. So, there is little we can do while in a PvP zone other than play it as PvP...separate profiles or not. On the other hand, since Steel Tornado is being nerfed, how do you feel about doing Trials or trying to grind zombies with a much narrower AOE that was nerfed only because of PvP?

PvE in a PvP zone is indeed a gray area; and a contentious subject. But, it is now and should always be, treated as a PvP zone.

Sadetius · January 2016

I would vote for a split in PVP and PVE as well. Or perhaps the way GW2 handled it. Keep Cyrodill as is. Add an arena for the more pvp focused people where they can earn items trough pure PVP. And balance skills separately between PVE and PVP.
I think it's furstrating for both sides when changes affect areas undesirably, both for PVP and PVE.

IC is open for discussion though, I personally have not yet entered IC yet. So I would leave that for people who are knowledgeable about IC.

Korah_Eaglecry · January 2016

Sadetius wrote: »

I would vote for a split in PVP and PVE as well. Or perhaps the way GW2 handled it. Keep Cyrodill as is. Add an arena for the more pvp focused people where they can earn items trough pure PVP. And balance skills separately between PVE and PVP.
I think it's furstrating for both sides when changes affect areas undesirably, both for PVP and PVE.

IC is open for discussion though, I personally have not yet entered IC yet. So I would leave that for people who are knowledgeable about IC.

Im pretty sure if they could do this they would have.

Sadetius · January 2016

Korah_Eaglecry wrote: »

Im pretty sure if they could do this they would have.

You mean that you think that there are certain limitations that prevents from implementing it? Like engine limitations and general stuff like that?

Agobi · January 2016

After 20 years and many,many ,many mmo's I have concluded that pvp and pve can never ever coexist successfully in a game....it's simply not possible..

.

That said,I would pay a huuuuge montly sub for an mmo with no pvp what so ever

Gidorick · January 2016

There's a third group! Those of us who care nothing for competitive play and are only concerned about experiencing the narrative of ESO. Oh! And the fourth group... roleplayers.

But really, if you really want a separation of stats, why not just roll a PVE character and a PVP character. This will be easier to do once Vet Ranks are removed! You have 8 slots... use em!

and I see someone else suggested this and you responded:

Refuse2GrowUp wrote: »

@jhharvest Do you mean that you create and level one character for PvP and and completely level a second for PvE? Although the idea works on the same premise as mine, provided that skills and class balances were independent of each other and the devs could change skills for one without effecting the other, I think there might be some resistance from the community to the idea as many don't want to level additional toons and have to go thru the grind for each (tho personally I enjoy it)...especially if the two toons counted toward the 8 toon max cap. The other question or idea brings up, is how would PvP toons get undaunted XP or skills and how would the PvE toons get PvP skills?

I guess I would say... PVP Characters (I hate the word toons. Make me think of Roger Rabbit. Great movie BTW!) wouldn't get Undaunted XP or skills and PVE characters wouldn't get PVP skills.

This idea that every character must have everything should stop. If you WANT your character to be great at PVP... then you must have one build. If you WANT your character to be great at PVE... you must have a different build. If you want a character balanced between the two... then you must build it for that. Making sacrifices and decisions that have negative consequences is brilliant IMO... Not everyone should be the build-o-the-week.

Of course.. this is coming from a narrative focused player so I know little of what I speak of. hehe.

Korah_Eaglecry · January 2016

Sadetius wrote: »

Korah_Eaglecry wrote: »

Im pretty sure if they could do this they would have.

You mean that you think that there are certain limitations that prevents from implementing it? Like engine limitations and general stuff like that?

I think theres probably an issue with separating the skills that are tied to your character that would be passing between the two barriers if it existed.

Refuse2GrowUp · January 2016

Korah_Eaglecry wrote: »

Sadetius wrote: »

Korah_Eaglecry wrote: »

Im pretty sure if they could do this they would have.

You mean that you think that there are certain limitations that prevents from implementing it? Like engine limitations and general stuff like that?

I think theres probably an issue with separating the skills that are tied to your character that would be passing between the two barriers if it existed.

They can already differentiate how skills respond in PvP vs PvE. Take Negate Magic for example, PvE stuns enemies; PvP silences instead. I am sure they can do it. Whether or not they would is an entirely different issue

RatedChaotic · January 2016

Agobi wrote: »

After 20 years and many,many ,many mmo's I have concluded that pvp and pve can never ever coexist successfully in a game....it's simply not possible.. .

That said,I would pay a huuuuge montly sub for an mmo with no pvp what so ever

Wrong. Warhammer Online did it quite well. But clearly your not a pvper is why I cant agree with your statement.

Dexter411 · January 2016

The whole "idea" is nice. But in reality it will not work.
It is like saying: You are unable to balance both PvP and PvE at the same time, lets make it easy for you. And we all know they are unable to do that. This will only work if you make separate servers for it, before logging in you will get little pop up asking if you are going to PvP or PvE.

They should work more on actually balancing classes and some of the abilites not on new mounts, pets and costumes.