A proposal to Argonian Passives

Glarin · December 2015

Now we all know Argonian passives are kinda....bad. I propose a small change that will make the race better and playable. On the last passive (I forgot the name) where healing received is increased, I suggest changing it to healing done that way Argonians become an amazing healing race , like they should be. It still sticks with the lore of Argonians being adept healers and becomes a more desirable race.

Let me know what you think @Wrobel and @ZOS_GinaBruno.

pretzl · December 2015

Argonians have, since the dawn of Elder Scrolls, been a sub-par race. It would seem ZOS wishes to stick to tradition... I'd love to see argonians be a viable choice for atleast something (I 100% agree on the healing-part), but it seems pretty far-fetched as far as lore goes.
Argonian Templar healer would really be something, hahaha.

RAGUNAnoOne · December 2015

they need more than that but this shold be included my ideas:

change quick to mend to blessings of the hist: add 1 2 3.5% healing received 3, 4.5, 7% healing cast

amphibious: nuke the potion bonus and add 3 6 9% increased stam and magicka Possible New Effect: stamina and magicka is increased by a further 2, 4, 6% while swimming or in rain and continues for 5 min after that condition disappears.

Resistance:Nuke the disease resistance as only 3 sources use it player werewolves, siege, and zombies plus the zombies and siege have a stupid circle. Add 3, 5, 7% stamina and magicka recovery.

jhharvest · December 2015

pretzl wrote: »

Argonians have, since the dawn of Elder Scrolls, been a sub-par race. It would seem ZOS wishes to stick to tradition... I'd love to see argonians be a viable choice for atleast something (I 100% agree on the healing-part), but it seems pretty far-fetched as far as lore goes.

elderscrolls.wikia.com/wiki/An-Xileel_Daedric_resistance
"The Argonian forces apparently managed to flood into Oblivion itself, fighting and winning against the Daedra on their own turf. The Dremora lieutenants were forced to close their own Gates to prevent being overrun, something unheard of anywhere else."

Yeah, a weak bunch of lizards, right.

pretzl · December 2015

jhharvest wrote: »

pretzl wrote: »

Argonians have, since the dawn of Elder Scrolls, been a sub-par race. It would seem ZOS wishes to stick to tradition... I'd love to see argonians be a viable choice for atleast something (I 100% agree on the healing-part), but it seems pretty far-fetched as far as lore goes.

elderscrolls.wikia.com/wiki/An-Xileel_Daedric_resistance
"The Argonian forces apparently managed to flood into Oblivion itself, fighting and winning against the Daedra on their own turf. The Dremora lieutenants were forced to close their own Gates to prevent being overrun, something unheard of anywhere else."

Yeah, a weak bunch of lizards, right.

hahaha, every race has their major triumphs. Argonians have this, I guess. A nice feat, but they've always been the "lesser race" in ES. It would be nice to see them being useful though.

Flameheart · December 2015

House Dres likes Argonian passives as they are and wishes no change.

Glarin · December 2015

RAGUNAnoOne wrote: »

they need more than that but this shold be included my ideas:

change quick to mend to blessings of the hist: add 1 2 3.5% healing received 3, 4.5, 7% healing cast

amphibious: nuke the potion bonus and add 3 6 9% increased stam and magicka Possible New Effect: stamina and magicka is increased by a further 2, 4, 6% while swimming or in rain and continues for 5 min after that condition disappears.

Resistance:Nuke the disease resistance as only 3 sources use it player werewolves, siege, and zombies plus the zombies and siege have a stupid circle. Add 3, 5, 7% stamina and magicka recovery.

The only problem here is the increased stats during rain. I can imagine the coding nightmare it would be to increase stats to x race while y is happening and do that for each zone. The performance is bad enough we don't need the servers to take on anymore processes.

But, these changes do seem to be a little drastic. I only ask for the healing received to be changed to healing done because that seems like a small and reasonable change but yet big enough to make the race desirable.

Dr_Ganknstein · December 2015

I'll vote for Quick to Mend to be changed to Quick to Heal. Hell yeah that would be an actual useful passive.

Jar_Ek · December 2015

Part of the issue with major passive changes is that it screwsup the existing character builds - a classic example being the Argonians Night blade thirsty build. If the Quick to Mend changes to quick to heal it would mess up a lot of tank builds. So I can't really get behind this - much better to tack that ability onto the existing passive tbh.

But I think it would be better off Argonians if the potion passive was changed so that it added a % Max attribute for the duration of the potion usage - this could be maybe 6% for all attributes. And would do the following:

1. Provide a direct benefit to a precast potion (Max attributes and attribute pools buffed)
2. Provide a durational benefit to the potion passive that is seriously lacking (a resource regen every 45s if you chain suck potions is poor)
3. Provide an effective buff to all skills.
4. Provide a benefit for all playstyles and build types from potion use.
However if would come with built in limitations:
1. An inherent cost in monetary terms
2. An inherent duration
3. Push a specific sets of enchants and skills to gain maximum benefit (potion CD reduction, medicinal)

That is a passive I could get behind.

Skiserony · December 2015

RAGUNAnoOne wrote: »

they need more than that but this shold be included my ideas:

change quick to mend to blessings of the hist: add 1 2 3.5% healing received 3, 4.5, 7% healing cast

amphibious: nuke the potion bonus and add 3 6 9% increased stam and magicka Possible New Effect: stamina and magicka is increased by a further 2, 4, 6% while swimming or in rain and continues for 5 min after that condition disappears.

Resistance:Nuke the disease resistance as only 3 sources use it player werewolves, siege, and zombies plus the zombies and siege have a stupid circle. Add 3, 5, 7% stamina and magicka recovery.

Wow, that would be so bad if they did that. It would be the most powerful race of all. I'd think you'll only see Argonians in PvP then

Junkogen · December 2015

I disagree with this proposal. One of the big problems with Argonian passives is that they're way too specialized. They should give Argonians max stats or regen other than potion-based regen. I've been pushing for a max stat increase to magicka. It would make Argonians another, more tanky, magicka class, similar to Orcs for stamina. 6% max magicka added to what they already have would actually balance them out. Will ZOS do that? Probably not. They've resisted any change to their passives so far. It seems like they have their hearts set on making these passives work, but they just don't. They're just so bad in the current game meta. It's like they're going to use Argonians as a means to profit immensely off race changes.

Also, it seems like the developers refuse to use anything suggested by players. I don't know why that is. Does it insult their own sense of creativity? I don't know, by it's safe to assume that they will not use anything we suggest.

We also suffer from a lack of people with influence supporting our cause. Streamers and influential guilds don't run Argonians so developers don't care. It should be the opposite, though. The fact that few people want to use them should get them to buff/change their passives.

oibam · December 2015

Give them 8% spellcrit.

Jar_Ek · December 2015

@Junkogen Out of curiosity what do you think of the idea of Max attribute on potion use (and with it a commensurate heal/recovery). It sticks with @zos wish to keep us tied to potions but makes it at least useful?

Wreuntzylla · December 2015

Just allow for race changes and be done with it.

The devs openly laughed at sad Argonian players in one of their podcasts. I don't think you can get past that level of unprofessional spite when its coming from the decision makers.

SmalltalkJava · December 2015

Jar_Ek wrote: »

Part of the issue with major passive changes is that it screwsup the existing character builds - a classic example being the Argonians Night blade thirsty build. If the Quick to Mend changes to quick to heal it would mess up a lot of tank builds. So I can't really get behind this - much better to tack that ability onto the existing passive tbh.

But I think it would be better off Argonians if the potion passive was changed so that it added a % Max attribute for the duration of the potion usage - this could be maybe 6% for all attributes. And would do the following:

1. Provide a direct benefit to a precast potion (Max attributes and attribute pools buffed)
2. Provide a durational benefit to the potion passive that is seriously lacking (a resource regen every 45s if you chain suck potions is poor)
3. Provide an effective buff to all skills.
4. Provide a benefit for all playstyles and build types from potion use.
However if would come with built in limitations:
1. An inherent cost in monetary terms
2. An inherent duration
3. Push a specific sets of enchants and skills to gain maximum benefit (potion CD reduction, medicinal)

That is a passive I could get behind.

Can you tell me more about this "thirsty" build?

Dr_Ganknstein · December 2015

Jar_Ek wrote: »

Part of the issue with major passive changes is that it screwsup the existing character builds - a classic example being the Argonians Night blade thirsty build. If the Quick to Mend changes to quick to heal it would mess up a lot of tank builds. So I can't really get behind this - much better to tack that ability onto the existing passive tbh.

But I think it would be better off Argonians if the potion passive was changed so that it added a % Max attribute for the duration of the potion usage - this could be maybe 6% for all attributes. And would do the following:

1. Provide a direct benefit to a precast potion (Max attributes and attribute pools buffed)
2. Provide a durational benefit to the potion passive that is seriously lacking (a resource regen every 45s if you chain suck potions is poor)
3. Provide an effective buff to all skills.
4. Provide a benefit for all playstyles and build types from potion use.
However if would come with built in limitations:
1. An inherent cost in monetary terms
2. An inherent duration
3. Push a specific sets of enchants and skills to gain maximum benefit (potion CD reduction, medicinal)

That is a passive I could get behind.

Just make it Quick to both. I mean how can they have a bonus to healing staves and not be more proficient in healing? lol. Bretons have increased learning in the light armor skill and have all sorts of magica related passives for example.

Dr_Ganknstein · December 2015

Argonian passives seem all over the place. They train in Resto Staff faster but get swim speed bonus. It just makes sense to have more heal type related passives.

I can look at any race's racial passives and easily decide what they would be suited for. Then I look at Argonian and just think "wtf". I challenge you to go look up all the racial passives and tell me I'm wrong.

Junkogen · December 2015

Jar_Ek wrote: »

@Junkogen Out of curiosity what do you think of the idea of Max attribute on potion use (and with it a commensurate heal/recovery). It sticks with @zos wish to keep us tied to potions but makes it at least useful?

If we must keep the potion passive, the max stat increase is better, for sure. I would definitely take that over what we have now. At least we would get the temporary benefits of having more max stats.

RAGUNAnoOne · December 2015

Junkogen wrote: »

Jar_Ek wrote: »

@Junkogen Out of curiosity what do you think of the idea of Max attribute on potion use (and with it a commensurate heal/recovery). It sticks with @zos wish to keep us tied to potions but makes it at least useful?

If we must keep the potion passive, the max stat increase is better, for sure. I would definitely take that over what we have now. At least we would get the temporary benefits of having more max stats.

Plus it wouldn't get nerfed by battle spirit. I think argonians are the only race to get directly nerfed in cyrodiil and to make it worse they get 2 passives that get nerfed one directly one indirectly!

Junkogen · December 2015

Icky wrote: »

Argonian passives seem all over the place. They train in Resto Staff faster but get swim speed bonus. It just makes sense to have more heal type related passives.

I can look at any race's racial passives and easily decide what they would be suited for. Then I look at Argonian and just think "wtf". I challenge you to go look up all the racial passives and tell me I'm wrong.

So why not just a flat increase to magicka? Then everyone who's not a healer isn't pidgeonholed. Max magicka as a stat increase would increase healing done because spell strength is calculated off of spell power and max magicka. That's the thing a lot of people are missing. A max stat increase does so much more than all the other stuff. Max stats allow you to spend that resource on whatever plus it makes those expenditures more powerful. That's why all the recommended builds involve races that have the largest max stat increase.

Thing is, I'm not asking to be a top magicka race like Altmer, Breton, or Dunmer. That would be nice, but ZOS is dead set against it. So I'm just saying, make us like Orcs or something but with magicka. There are only 3 magicka races right now with 5 stamina races. It would add to build diversity and make our race competitive. Sure, they're not the top magicka choice, but at least they would be thrown in as a good choice. Right now, we're not even a good choice for anything. Argonians just aren't good at anything. In fact, because our passive requires the use of a consumable, it's actually more a hindrance to be an Argonian than any benefit. Those potion ingredients don't collect and mix themselves. That's why I get so frustrated with @ZOS about this issue. They've effectively handicapped our race and seriously inconvenienced the Argonian player base (if there will be any of us left after race change is allowed).

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO · December 2015

Glarin wrote: »

Now we all know Argonian passives are kinda....bad. I propose a small change that will make the race better and playable. On the last passive (I forgot the name) where healing received is increased, I suggest changing it to healing done that way Argonians become an amazing healing race , like they should be. It still sticks with the lore of Argonians being adept healers and becomes a more desirable race.

Let me know what you think @Wrobel.

It don't matter what you think they stated that Argonians need to stay a "recovery" race. @Wrobel their are just not enough of us to matter. Plain and simple.

Nevermind that we have no regeneration bonuses unless you waste time or gold getting stacks of potions to use a passive. Argonian is a useless race you play cause you like the lore or look every Argonian build is better with another race.

Junkogen · December 2015

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO wrote: »

Glarin wrote: »

Now we all know Argonian passives are kinda....bad. I propose a small change that will make the race better and playable. On the last passive (I forgot the name) where healing received is increased, I suggest changing it to healing done that way Argonians become an amazing healing race , like they should be. It still sticks with the lore of Argonians being adept healers and becomes a more desirable race.

Let me know what you think @Wrobel.

It don't matter what you think they stated that Argonians need to stay a "recovery" race. @Wrobel their are just not enough of us to matter. Plain and simple.

Nevermind that we have no regeneration bonuses unless you waste time or gold getting stacks of potions to use a passive. Argonian is a useless race you play cause you like the lore or look every Argonian build is better with another race.

Sad, but true. Enslaved in the lore and in chains in the game.

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO · December 2015

Junkogen wrote: »

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO wrote: »

Glarin wrote: »

Now we all know Argonian passives are kinda....bad. I propose a small change that will make the race better and playable. On the last passive (I forgot the name) where healing received is increased, I suggest changing it to healing done that way Argonians become an amazing healing race , like they should be. It still sticks with the lore of Argonians being adept healers and becomes a more desirable race.

Let me know what you think @Wrobel.

It don't matter what you think they stated that Argonians need to stay a "recovery" race. @Wrobel their are just not enough of us to matter. Plain and simple.

Nevermind that we have no regeneration bonuses unless you waste time or gold getting stacks of potions to use a passive. Argonian is a useless race you play cause you like the lore or look every Argonian build is better with another race.

Sad, but true. Enslaved in the lore and in chains in the game.

I have lose all trust in ZoS for better Argonian passives it's just not happening getting new players hopes up is cruel, we vets know better.

Jar_Ek · December 2015

If Argonians are supposed to be a "recovery" race, then make them a have recovery worth a damn! If @zos need to tie Argonians racials to potions for some reason known only to themselves then make them worth it. So if zos won't add Max attributes, then maybe add recovery to the potion duration as well as on drinking - something like 20% across the board whilst a potion is active.

Junkogen · December 2015

Jar_Ek wrote: »

If Argonians are supposed to be a "recovery" race, then make them a have recovery worth a damn! If @zos need to tie Argonians racials to potions for some reason known only to themselves then make them worth it. So if zos won't add Max attributes, then maybe add recovery to the potion duration as well as on drinking - something like 20% across the board whilst a potion is active.

Another big thing that affected Argonians more than other races was the change to the major/minor buff system. Now potion effect can never be greater than the major/minor buff. Therefore our potion passive is constrained by those limits. Any enhancement of potion effects is worthless now unless it's just more stat return.

I think you're saying that perhaps we could get more stat regen added to the major/minor bonuses? It would be nice to get something that lasted longer than once every 45 seconds.

It sucks because there's such a disadvantage built in to having a passive linked to a consumable that it deserves a proportionate advantage that's not there right now.

We discuss and discuss, but, like Chaos said, it feels like we're talking to a wall at this point.

Jar_Ek · December 2015

Unfortunately it does seem like that, but if we all give up then nothing will happen for sure.

Dr_Ganknstein · December 2015

I definitely think it shouldn't be based around some "thirsty" Argonian build.

Junkogen · December 2015

Jar_Ek wrote: »

Unfortunately it does seem like that, but if we all give up then nothing will happen for sure.

I never said give up. I'm like a psych patient at this point. Talking to walls ain't no thing. I've been in this a long time. I only hope one day that Argonians will be able to draw blood for the Pact as equals. It's very frustrating, though. The fix doesn't seem all that hard to implement. ZOS just refuses to do it for some reason. No matter what they say their vision is for Argonians, there are a bunch of ways to maintain that vision and make the passives competitive within the new game meta.

Jar_Ek · December 2015

@Icky I wasn't advocating a thirsty build really just trying to make the frankly dreadful potion passive less bad as we seem to be stuck with a potion passive.

@Junkogen Yeah we have both been at this for a long time now. I have tried to get decent passives for Argonians since beta to no avail, and changes since the game changes that major/minor buffs created.

Dr_Ganknstein · December 2015

At least we look the coolest.

Cathexis · January 2016

20% chance to turn into snazzy boots when killed!