Craglorn Group Delves should be Public, not Instanced

Enodoc · December 2015

Lots of threads around which include this idea when talking about Craglorn's group-friendliness in general, but I didn't see any specifically directed to this aspect of the zone by itself. This stems from a question in the ESO Live thread asked by @CirithValaria (which I then repeated a few weeks later; whoops

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Enodoc wrote: »

CirithValaria wrote: »

Enodoc wrote: »

Are there any plans for making Craglorn's Group Delves non-instanced, like all other Delves? This would make it possible to meet up with other players to group with while inside the delve, rather than being required to find a group before going in. There would be no need to change the difficulty, and this would likely increase the grouping opportunities in the zone.

CirithValaria - What are your thoughts on making Craglorn dungeons public instead of instanced, but keeping the difficulty as it is. This would make the zone more "solo" friendly and still keep it group based.
We’re focused right now on getting new DLC zones and content ready, so there are no plans right now to go back and make those types of adjustments to Craglorn. Ideally, we would love to revisit Craglorn and make it a bit more solo friendly, where solo players can go. But no promises on if or when that might happen.
I asked this few months ago and it actually got answered.

Heh... whoops Usually I check back on these things before posting to make sure I'm not repeating a previous question

The issue, then, is that Craglorn's instanced group delves are not really fit-for-purpose, as they are not group-friendly and not solo-friendly. To get anywhere with one of these delves, you need to form a group before entering the dungeon, as you are cut off from the rest of the world once you are inside. This means you're wasting time spamming "LFG" in Zone Chat instead of actually doing the content you want to so (since you can't use the Grouping Tool for this any more either).

If the delves were public (like all other delves in the game), you would be able to meet up and group up with other players while inside the dungeon, as and when the opportunity arises while doing the content. I believe players would be more inclined to bother going into the delves at all if they knew there was the potential to group up with others while in there; that way, those who want to solo it would know that there could be assistance around if required, and those who want to group would know that there was a possibility of finding others who want to group, or who are in a group, who are already inside.

ZOS have said there are no plans right now to go back and adjust Craglorn, so we need to help them see that this specific adjustment would be an important quality-of-life update for the player base as a whole, which would help people engage more in the Craglorn content. I'm also naïvely hoping that this would just be a matter of flicking some variable for Group Delves from "instanced=1" to "instanced=0".

Note that nowhere have I said that the content should be made any easier -- it's still a Group Delve first and foremost, so should remain at a difficulty geared for groups. But let's make it easier to actually find those groups!

NewBlacksmurf · December 2015

The whole entire zone is a waist as designed. It only had value when the cap was in line with the content.
Honestly they should make silver n gold zones all level 50 and Craglorn levels 52-54 when VR is removed and keep us at 50 with CP's to offset levels but loot changes would be needed. Then the zone begins to make sense as endgame again

Merry · December 2015

As a newly capped v16 on my very first char I headed to crag hoping to have a good time. Instead I wanted to stab myself with a spoon. I spent a good week there trying to get things done and got nothing done. It needs addressed...

M

redspecter23 · December 2015

A short list "simple" changes that would make Craglorn popular and enjoyable.

1. Increase xp of mobs to be in line with Orsinium (450ish per standard mob)

2. Either make it a level cap area (v16) with appropriate level loot or make it a scalable zone like Orsinium (though that's probably too much work)

3. Give level appropriate rewards which would be v16 or scaled to player if the zone becomes scaled.

4. Upscale trials to v16 or if that's impossible as the devs have implied then just scale the loot up to v16 and keep the difficulty as is. Same challenge as it is currently but the loot would matter.

5. Allow NPC's to fill in for all areas that have pressure plates or some other mechanism that locks players out if the group size is too small.

DaveMoeDee · December 2015

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

The whole entire zone is a waist as designed. It only had value when the cap was in line with the content.
Honestly they should make silver n gold zones all level 50 and Craglorn levels 52-54 when VR is removed and keep us at 50 with CP's to offset levels but loot changes would be needed. Then the zone begins to make sense as endgame again

Levels past 50 should not exist. They should probably add some other method of indicating difficulty past level 50. The ideal would be a minimum CP recommendation so there is no converting involved.

For leveled zones like Wrothgar, I guess they would do that based off of CP instead of vet level. Perhaps the same for Cyrodiil. It is possible that everything past the main story would have battle leveling.

Sausage · December 2015

Not bad idea but you would still need to give reason to do those. Random CP-booster reward should do, green 50%, blue 100%, purple 150% and legendary 200%. I still hope they add my suggested Request System to the game to solve all groupping problems, rewards comes from the Request System.

Enodoc · December 2015

Sausage wrote: »

Not bad idea but you would still need to give reason to do those. Random CP-booster reward should do, green 50%, blue 100%, purple 150% and legendary 200%. I still hope they add my suggested Request System to the game to solve all groupping problems, rewards comes from the Request System.

Yeah, there's not a lot of reason to do them again once you've ticked them off on the map and finished the quests inside them. Some sort of reward or incentive for repeating them would be a great idea, whether that's a CP boost or a daily quest set like they added for the Wrothgar delves. (I'd still like to see some daily Mages Guild quests which revisit the old delves.)

But there are people that aren't bothering to do them at all, even for the map completion or the quests, because finding a group is too difficult. The reason there to do them would be to just get the map ticked off and the quests completed.

Are the group quest locations like Shada's Tear, Spellscar, and Skyreach also instanced to the group? Would it be a good idea to include those in this QoL change as well?

WalkingLegacy · December 2015

I hope they don't waste more dev time on solo content.

Spend dev time making a dynamic system such as content that evolves depending on how many people are in a group 1-4. Don't mind the instanced delves so much as the locked to this size only content.

RAGUNAnoOne · December 2015

Sausage wrote: »

Not bad idea but you would still need to give reason to do those. Random CP-booster reward should do, green 50%, blue 100%, purple 150% and legendary 200%. I still hope they add my suggested Request System to the game to solve all groupping problems, rewards comes from the Request System.

Or wait for it... horse training manuals! Bosses have a 7.5% to drop one of 3 horse training manuals the random rift bosses 20% chance the in game equivalent to the crown scrolls

.

NewBlacksmurf · December 2015

DaveMoeDee wrote: »

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

The whole entire zone is a waist as designed. It only had value when the cap was in line with the content.
Honestly they should make silver n gold zones all level 50 and Craglorn levels 52-54 when VR is removed and keep us at 50 with CP's to offset levels but loot changes would be needed. Then the zone begins to make sense as endgame again

Levels past 50 should not exist. They should probably add some other method of indicating difficulty past level 50. The ideal would be a minimum CP recommendation so there is no converting involved.

For leveled zones like Wrothgar, I guess they would do that based off of CP instead of vet level. Perhaps the same for Cyrodiil. It is possible that everything past the main story would have battle leveling.

I agree that going past 50 for players would be bad.
I don't agree that a NPC level for "endgame" content is bad as all those zones would use 50-55

Using Champion levels is no different than the catastrophe of VR levels. I hope ZOS lets this VR thing die with removal and keep CP's as something that allows ppl to increase or reduce difficulty in any encounter

Enodoc · December 2015

WalkingLegacy wrote: »

I hope they don't waste more dev time on solo content.

Spend dev time making a dynamic system such as content that evolves depending on how many people are in a group 1-4. Don't mind the instanced delves so much as the locked to this size only content.

That would be nice, but in the short term I think making the delves public would go a good distance towards alleviating the group formation issues.

Baconfat79 · December 2015

I just posted this in another thread, but I think Craglorn is the best content in the game. The delves are beautiful, and the quests are designed really well. If you are lucky enough to find 3 other people to run through the lower and upper main quest-lines, you will love it. It's such a shame that they let it go dead. There is literally NO incentive to do Craglorn now, and it's the most enjoyable content the game has to offer.

Vildebill · December 2015

I really like the concept of Craglorn with the grouping and all that, the zone is beautiful and the quests are well written imo. The main problem is in my opinion to find a group/mates who are at the same quest stage as you are. The only time Craglorn runs smooth is when you do everything with the same persons from start to goal. It's almost impossible to find mates that are at the same stage on the main story. It's better with the other ones like Shada's Tear and Skyreach Catacombs though.

Or just do as i do, solo the whole shebang and get some guild mates only when you need to stand on platforms. But that takes away the whole point of it, doesn't it?

Hiero_Glyph · December 2015

You should try running Craglorn on consoles, it's pretty much impossible unless you have a dedicated group due to a lack of text chat. It is a shame because it really is a fantastic area. I really wish ZOS would take the time to undo their previous mistakes and make Craglorn more like Orsinium, even if the mobs are more difficult.

MishMash · December 2015

I've been here a year in this game and still have not completed all in Craglorn simply because we can almost never get enough people together at the times I want to run it. Sure I can spam my guilds for help, but I am the type of person that would rather just not bother anyone. Some people have no problem asking for help, but I am a bit shy around people I do not know so yeah I tend to just say forget it maybe another time.

Preyfar · December 2015

Craglorn could have been interesting if there was anything worth getting in the Nedic chests. But there's not. ZOS loot system is one of the most uninspiring I've ever seen, and questing over and over and over again for generic vendor loot to sell is just... well, it's mind numbing. Why would I want to run around Craglorn knowing I'll never have a chance for anything good to drop? Except for doing the story just to get them done ZOS never put an incentive to go (even XP wise).

ZOS could/should offer the chests a chance to drop unique loot, and make it worthwhile. Scale up Craglorn to get more bodies there (since it's STILL not working now) and give people a reason to go there, similar to Wrothgar.

If they made quest rewards have a chance to drop X set item at their level people would go back. And spend just a bit of time making those world bosses interesting, and Craglorn will be at least somewhat worth going to.

DHale · December 2015

Agree I have never done more than a few delve in Craglorn never any groups doing it or could be added to group finder. Some delves are harder than vet bosses those three lamia and shada forget about it.

nimander99 · December 2015

Yep.

AngryNord · December 2015

Vildebill wrote: »

The main problem is in my opinion to find a group/mates who are at the same quest stage as you are. The only time Craglorn runs smooth is when you do everything with the same persons from start to goal. It's almost impossible to find mates that are at the same stage on the main story. It's better with the other ones like Shada's Tear and Skyreach Catacombs though.

It's a good thing they removed the need to be on the same quest stage ages ago then.

Divinius · December 2015

Unless they could find a way to justify selling a re-vamped Craglorn as DLC in the crown store, don't expect to see them do anything with Craglorn ever.

Basically, like everything else in this game, if it's not monetize-able in the crown store, it's not going to get any developer time ever again.

Enodoc · December 2015

Divinius wrote: »

Unless they could find a way to justify selling a re-vamped Craglorn as DLC in the crown store, don't expect to see them do anything with Craglorn ever.

Basically, like everything else in this game, if it's not monetize-able in the crown store, it's not going to get any developer time ever again.

I don't see how nameplates, scrolling combat text, buff trackers, cross-faction grouping or new objectives in Cyrodiil can be monetised, but they're spending dev time on all of those things. That's the point of QoL updates.

ADarklore · December 2015

WalkingLegacy wrote: »

I hope they don't waste more dev time on solo content.

Now why wouldn't they spend time on solo content, considering the overwhelming majority of ESO players are SOLO players. I think the huge success of Orsinium was an indicator of what ESO players really enjoy, so I certainly would expect more content along the lines of Orsinium.

In regards to the original topic... I agree that Craglorn needs to be fixed... and a quick fix that wouldn't take any effort would be for them to remove the multiple-switch requirements and just make it a SINGLE switch so that people could at least solo it until they have time to make a full adjustment to the zone.

Magdalina · December 2015

Honestly the problem with Crag delves isn't they're instanced, it's there's NO REASON to do them at all besides the original storyline(which again only has as much value as you enjoy questing for questing). As it is now it absolutely doesn't matter if they're public or not because no one ever goes there anymore anyway.

To be honest I feel really sad for Craglorn. It's a great zone really, I had amazing fun with a couple friends when Upper Craglorn came out - for like 3 days until we finished the questline, and now it's just sitting there all forgotten. It's a whole zone of group dungeons(mind you outside of Craglorn there're only...10?...vet dungeons. Pretty sure Craglorn as a whole has more) with amazing locations and interesting mechanics(in some places at least. Or well they were before they all got nerfed), if it was just buffed to actually make the mechanics noticeable and given worthy rewards(and xp) it'd be AMAZING, like a whole new DLC without a new DLC, people'd flow in there, yet it's just being forgotten.
I don't think it should be made a solo zone(except yes, remove the damn "need 4 people to press levers" sh...stuff, it's just dumb), I think it should be buffed to appropriate(as in, not easily soloable) group level and given rewards that'd make it worth it. And then ta da! - we have like what...12?..."new" group dungeons to do/farm, wouldn't that be great?

AlnilamE · December 2015

Enodoc wrote: »

Are the group quest locations like Shada's Tear, Spellscar, and Skyreach also instanced to the group? Would it be a good idea to include those in this QoL change as well?

They are instanced. They are essentially a group dungeon like the Undaunted dungeons, with a storyline, so it would make even less sense to make them public than it does making the delves public.

The delves are fine. As others have pointed out, people need a reason to do them. I agree that XP should be in line with other zones, but the fact that the mobs are v11 and v13 makes that a bit tricky with v16 characters.

And instead of NPCs, they should just give you a timer in which one player can step on all 4 plates to go through the door.

Not sure how that would work with Spellscar with the three elements, though.

Gidorick · December 2015

Anything that makes Craglorn accessible I'd be all for.

Enodoc · December 2015

AlnilamE wrote: »

Enodoc wrote: »

Are the group quest locations like Shada's Tear, Spellscar, and Skyreach also instanced to the group? Would it be a good idea to include those in this QoL change as well?

They are instanced. They are essentially a group dungeon like the Undaunted dungeons, with a storyline, so it would make even less sense to make them public than it does making the delves public.

Ah right, thanks. In which case, it wouldn't make much sense to make them public. There's no storylines attached to the delves though, so is there a good reason to not make those public? I agree that there needs to be more incentive to go to them, but surely making it easier to get a group once inside could only help that.

Magdalina wrote: »

I don't think it should be made a solo zone(except yes, remove the damn "need 4 people to press levers" sh...stuff, it's just dumb), I think it should be buffed to appropriate(as in, not easily soloable) group level and given rewards that'd make it worth it. And then ta da! - we have like what...12?..."new" group dungeons to do/farm, wouldn't that be great?

It's actually a load more than that. Craglorn has 18 Group Delves, and 7 other places with those repeatable dailies that take place in a Group instance (Rahni'Za, Seeker's Archive, Shada's Tear, Skyreach Catacombs, Skyreach Hold, Skyreach Pinnacle, and Spellscar). That gives 25 locations designed for group play which are mostly being ignored.

Darkonflare15 · December 2015

Enodoc wrote: »

AlnilamE wrote: »

Enodoc wrote: »

Are the group quest locations like Shada's Tear, Spellscar, and Skyreach also instanced to the group? Would it be a good idea to include those in this QoL change as well?

They are instanced. They are essentially a group dungeon like the Undaunted dungeons, with a storyline, so it would make even less sense to make them public than it does making the delves public.

Ah right, thanks. In which case, it wouldn't make much sense to make them public. There's no storylines attached to the delves though, so is there a good reason to not make those public? I agree that there needs to be more incentive to go to them, but surely making it easier to get a group once inside could only help that.

Magdalina wrote: »

I don't think it should be made a solo zone(except yes, remove the damn "need 4 people to press levers" sh...stuff, it's just dumb), I think it should be buffed to appropriate(as in, not easily soloable) group level and given rewards that'd make it worth it. And then ta da! - we have like what...12?..."new" group dungeons to do/farm, wouldn't that be great?

It's actually a load more than that. Craglorn has 18 Group Delves, and 7 other places with those repeatable dailies that take place in a Group instance (Rahni'Za, Seeker's Archive, Shada's Tear, Skyreach Catacombs, Skyreach Hold, Skyreach Pinnacle, and Spellscar). That gives 25 locations designed for group play which are mostly being ignored.

I think ZOS needs to improve their grouping tool with more features, more rewards, and more options. With a good group finder for zones and making in game events to excite players to go to different zones. The game is getting to a point where it is getting bigger. Why not instill some excitement to adventurers by having different events in different zones. This can work in all zones.