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#RIPMagickaDK
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Sharee✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Why are you still saying that the removal of stam regen broke the DK?
It doesnt, i Play magicka DK wiht duo s/b with 17k Stamina, and can block Long enought.
Even with x5 LA i can block long enought to kill my target.
1v1, sure. But add another attacker and i simply cannot hold block long enough to kill one of them. I will either continue blocking, run out of stamina, get CC-ed and die, or I will stop blocking and start eating 5-6K surprise attacks every second that I have no way to heal through(5-6k because i am in heavy armor, add more if light).
NB can manage multiple attackers with cloak, sorc by bolting, templar by outhealing the damage. A DK has no escape and no OP heals. He needs to be able to tank the damage, and without blocking, he just can't.
thats a L2p issues,
Dk has so much CC, if you cant use it, then you die.
And other classes don't have much CC? Please.
Of course i can use CC. And my opponents can use a CC break. The we are back to square one.
i dont speak about hard CC,
When i play my stamina NB, i don't even notice anyone trying to root me. I always roll around simply to avoid damage. The only CC that does anything to me is fossilize.but on the other Hand, if a sorc or NB will face 2 good Player, they will not be able to use streak or Cloak,
Sorc will get *** by Gapcloser or the epic chains (i start to like them)
NB will end in aoes or one of the Player use a dpot, if he is faceing one Nb pircing marke will take care of them.
Gap closers only work against inexperienced sorcs that streak multiple times in a straight line - and even then, streaking separates the enemies, some will be able to follow, some won't, it turns the fight to your advantage. Streak around corner, heal up, go back in.
NB will only have an issue with mark, and then only if he doesn't have purge slotted. Otherwise he will simply speed away from the AOE and vanish. Potions don't last long enough.0 -
BuggeX✭✭✭✭✭
✭and wath would it Change if DK can block longer?
you will still die to broken WB trhought block or fear and instaonenuke.
and if they are good, they will go WW and *** you up. no matter how mutch you block or how Long.
but the real broken *** wath kill you as a mag dk is bleeding, 2,5-3k dot, if you dont have purge you will die to this, nothing else.Edited by BuggeX on December 28, 2015 10:24AM#makemagickadkgreataigan
#givemeaexecute
#ineedheal
#betterhotfixgrindspots0 -
Sharee✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭and wath would it Change if DK can block longer?
you will still die to broken WB trhought block or fear and instaonenuke.
and if they are good, they will go WW and *** you up. no matter how mutch you block or how Long.
but the real broken *** wath kill you as a mag dk is bleeding, 2,5-3k dot, if you dont have purge you will die to this, nothing else.
I don't neccessarily insist on blocking being the solution. But the DK needs a tool to help him fight multiple opponents that would be just as useful for the purpose as sorc bolt or NB cloak(or shade!) are. Being significantly better at blocking simply fits the DK theme well, in my opinion.
Right now, there's very little a magicka DK has going for him that would allow him to face multiple opponents better than the other classes can. He can 1v1 well enough, but so can the other classes. And in 1vX, the balance falls apart.0 -
Ishammael✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Joy_Division wrote: »
While I agree with the overall idea that perma-blocking was stupid and all classes potentially could abuse it, I think you are understating just how far magicka DK has dropped.
It goes beyond being less than ideal or below-average. It is *not* fun to play
You mention a magicka templar. They are far more playable and enjoyable. They have a gap-closer (even if it gets them killed sometimes), they don't have to derp a resto staff to heal themselves, and they have an execute which, now thanx to ZoS and its infinite (non) wisdom, only works half the time even leaving them defenseless, but these are all things magicka DKs simply can't get. Moreover, they can insta-cleanse themselves, heal themselves while doing DPs, actually have the option to use a ranged spell, and actually have functional utility spells like rune focus and repentance that do something. The only DK ability - including ultimates - I would consider slotting on my bar as a templar is Reflective scales. Maybe igneous shield if were tasked as a group healer.
None of this means templars are anywhere near where NBs and sorcs are ... it just shows have far DKs have sunk.
Agree with Joy here.Disagree, when I played a magicka templar I needed to go resto staff so I had healing ward to counter the million WBs flying around. I never found breath of life sufficient to handle WB when it hits a light armor templar for 12k every second. Dark Flare is a channel, easily telegraphed for a reflect/block/purge, vamp bane is derpy, puncturing sweep has all sorts of issues as you've pointed out in your templar thread, javelin is a joke ... so ... I honestly don't see how you find them so enjoyable. If we're talking pure enjoyment, there is no single greater skill for enjoyment than leap, none. I also found reflecting meteors waaaaay more fun than purging them on a templar. Could just be personal taste, but DK has always been a fun class, and the skills still are, even if the class is a bit sucky at the moment. For your other point, templars have the option to use ranged spells, yes, but each has significant problems - I don't need to tell you that. Jesus beam ain't what it used to be either. Overall I found playing magicka templar far from enjoyable because everything is a channel (which is a monumental fail in pvp) and they don't have the shields or stamina to handle the physical dpsers running around. So yes, they have healing, which is obvious and something DK is lacking and why everyone agrees on a GDB buff, but everything else? I don't think you can make a strong argument that templar is leagues above.
I actually agree about the fun part. DKs have more fun skills than magicka templar.
Agree also that magicka templar "channel" skills need to be re-worked.
However, the templar class has the more complete toolkit than magicka DK right now: it has range, gap-closer, and heals. Sure, you miss with Dark flare sometimes -- but if it were instant cast it would be WAY too strong.As for the gap closer, I simply stopped using it. Frankly, for pvp, it might as well not even exist imo given how often it will completely lock up your character because of the bug that ZOS just doesn't seem capable of fixing. If it just didn't work that'd be one thing, but the bug literally cripples you in every imaginable way, so don't try and sell it to me as a bonus. Russian roulette is not the way to pvp, and certainly not "playable and enjoyable" for a templar.
Yes, it needs fixing.DKs have literally the best round of ultimates of all classes, so I'm surprised to hear you wouldn't slot even one. Need I point out the templar ults?
Yeah templar ultimates are terrible. However, they do get to spec 100% into Thaumaturge and run Dawnbreaker -- which is hands-down the best damage ultimate for a magicka class right now.
I would argues that Nightblades have a better set of ultimates than DKs. Yes, VoB is a bit weak at the moment. But so is Banner and Magma armor. Soul Harvest and Soul Tether are outstanding.The argument was never that other classes don't have advantages, the argument is that when people say "it just shows have far DKs have sunk", it highlights that the place they've sunk to REALLY isn't that far off from some of the other poor performing builds, DKs just never had to pay attention/care because they were so far at the top that class balance meant little when they could both facetank and melt everything (little hyperbole here...). To use a poor anecdotal example, I see DKs as people that once had overpaid wallstreet salaries, they got laid off and now work minimum wage, and expect the poor shlubs that have been working just over minimum wage for the past 2 years to console them. The poor templar shlubs are doing slightly better, but not by much, and they've been in that category for faaaaaar longer. There are far more people in this boat than many magicka DKs ever cared to realize existed. Yes, there are significant issues and things that need to be fixed, but the same can be said for other classes, and have been said. Welcome to the party?
Totally hyperbole. DKs from the 1.5 era and earlier relied heavily on the ignorance of their opponents: standing in Banners or Bats, shooting projectiles at wings, etc. Sure, Battle Roar was a bit strong but only because of the meta it sat in: softcaps, dynamic ultimate.
Which is why i wrote earlier that I don't think that the blocking nerf was that big of a deal for the Magicka DK -- it was simply the last nail in the coffin. Consider the list of (direct and major) DK nerfs since 1.5:
1. Cinder storm loses 30% miss chances.
2. Wings projectiles reduced to 4.
3. Ardent flames passives and burning proc.
4. Whip heal changes to HoT.
5. Loss of unstable flame to Stamina.
6. Battle roar direct nerf (doesn't scale all resources return on magicka).
7. Standard heal debuff and cost increase.
8. Dragon Blood healing obliterated.
Gameplay changes that affected DK more than any other class:
1. Removal of Softcaps
2. Static ultimate
3. no stam regen while blocking.
4. 50% damage debuff in cyro
The reason these gameplay changes crippled magicka DK is because
1. DKs have never had mobility
2. DKs have never had escape
3. DKs were not given an execute
4. DKs don't have high instant DPS to take advantage of removed softcaps -- i.e. because of (1)-(3) they can't simply stack mana and be effective like a NB or Sorc or Templar. The need all stats.
5. DKs relied on Battle Roar to keep themselves alive. They blocked and tanked to build ultimate to Battle Roar to stay alive. Very much the "stand your ground" class which was unique against the mobility and escape of NBs and Sorc. It simply doesn't work anymore because of the afore-mentioned reasons.
Edited by Ishammael on December 28, 2015 1:46PM6 -
Desommettor✭✭
i actually agree because it allowed for less micro management of health. Everything else has been a nerf however, magick DK has been reduced to nothing more than a damage spounge that is ignored on the battle field anymore.0 -
BuggeX✭✭✭✭✭
✭Desommettor wrote: »
i actually agree because it allowed for less micro management of health. Everything else has been a nerf however, magick DK has been reduced to nothing more than a damage spounge that is ignored on the battle field anymore.
not only the hot, but at the same time the proc got a dmg buff from ~ 20%#makemagickadkgreataigan
#givemeaexecute
#ineedheal
#betterhotfixgrindspots0 -
Moglijuana✭✭✭✭✭Can't wait to hop on my Magicka DK tonight after that Christmas break. Get to use my newly acquired proxy det
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Joy_Division✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Joy_Division wrote: »Darnathian wrote: »
why was permablocking a problem? it was a tank class. that doesnt make sense. and when they put it in damage from sorcs and nbs was already crazy high. made it even easier.
I've already explained and given an example of why permablocking was a problem. You don't have to agree, but you keep talking about permablocking like it was something inherent to DKs - it was a problem across the board. You can't range a magicka DK for (what I hope are) obvious reasons, so you have to be in melee range to kill them. If you couldn't even drain their stam with jabs/puncturing sweep and instead have to eat whips to the face till you're dead, while I'm sure it was fun for the DK, it was stupid as **** for everyone else - not all classes can use fear. I equate permablocking to the same skill level as that required for steel tornado spamming. DKs weren't some special snowflake and the only ones that could do it; it ran counter to the purpose of a feature like block (reactionary) and gave SO many benefits for little sacrifice or skill.
Honestly though, I think part of the problem is that DKs used to have it so good that they just aren't ready to be average, even when the class was in decent shape (like 1.6). They're at the bottom of the barrel now, and while it seems like such a drastic change to go from god-mode to bottom of the barrel, other builds are only smidgens better and are still (relatively) on the same playing field as magicka DKs as far as needing buffs. I played a stamina sorc for the first 6 months of the game, back when everyone needed to run robe and stick or gtfo, so I find the 'woe is me' exaggerated, and just think that people aren't used to having to put up with poor class balance from wrobel like the rest of us have (cough cough, templars) since launch. My DK is rank 24, and used to be my pve main, so it's not like I'm a bystander. I have almost every class to rank 24 (nb is almost alliance skill rank 9) now and have seen the problems (and stupid OP mechanics) inherent to each, and so I find that many people on this magicka DK vein of threads seem to think DK is leagues below every other build in the game, when the reality is that other builds are pretty much in the same level of derpiness, and it only seems like magicka DK is so far below everything else because of how rapidly they changed from best in game to worst. Go play a magicka templar or stamina sorc if you don't believe me, they are in better shape than magicka DK, but not by a whole lot.
DKs need class active and passive skill buffs, not a return of a broken mechanic because it was easy to facetank groups of players. NBs do just fine without permablocking on both magicka and stam builds, so it IS possible to achieve this with a class, wrobel just needs to start putting in real changes. And yes, while all he's talked about is more dots for DKs, you're going to have to join the rest of us that are STILL waiting for wrobel to figure his stuff out. It usually takes multiple patches to fix things because ZOS reasons, so be ready for the long haul unfortunately.
While I agree with the overall idea that perma-blocking was stupid and all classes potentially could abuse it, I think you are understating just how far magicka DK has dropped.
It goes beyond being less than ideal or below-average. It is *not* fun to play
You mention a magicka templar. They are far more playable and enjoyable. They have a gap-closer (even if it gets them killed sometimes), they don't have to derp a resto staff to heal themselves, and they have an execute which, now thanx to ZoS and its infinite (non) wisdom, only works half the time even leaving them defenseless, but these are all things magicka DKs simply can't get. Moreover, they can insta-cleanse themselves, heal themselves while doing DPs, actually have the option to use a ranged spell, and actually have functional utility spells like rune focus and repentance that do something. The only DK ability - including ultimates - I would consider slotting on my bar as a templar is Reflective scales. Maybe igneous shield if were tasked as a group healer.
None of this means templars are anywhere near where NBs and sorcs are ... it just shows have far DKs have sunk.
Disagree, when I played a magicka templar I needed to go resto staff so I had healing ward to counter the million WBs flying around. I never found breath of life sufficient to handle WB when it hits a light armor templar for 12k every second. Dark Flare is a channel, easily telegraphed for a reflect/block/purge, vamp bane is derpy, puncturing sweep has all sorts of issues as you've pointed out in your templar thread, javelin is a joke ... so ... I honestly don't see how you find them so enjoyable. If we're talking pure enjoyment, there is no single greater skill for enjoyment than leap, none. I also found reflecting meteors waaaaay more fun than purging them on a templar. Could just be personal taste, but DK has always been a fun class, and the skills still are, even if the class is a bit sucky at the moment. For your other point, templars have the option to use ranged spells, yes, but each has significant problems - I don't need to tell you that. Jesus beam ain't what it used to be either. Overall I found playing magicka templar far from enjoyable because everything is a channel (which is a monumental fail in pvp) and they don't have the shields or stamina to handle the physical dpsers running around. So yes, they have healing, which is obvious and something DK is lacking and why everyone agrees on a GDB buff, but everything else? I don't think you can make a strong argument that templar is leagues above.
As for the gap closer, I simply stopped using it. Frankly, for pvp, it might as well not even exist imo given how often it will completely lock up your character because of the bug that ZOS just doesn't seem capable of fixing. If it just didn't work that'd be one thing, but the bug literally cripples you in every imaginable way, so don't try and sell it to me as a bonus. Russian roulette is not the way to pvp, and certainly not "playable and enjoyable" for a templar.
DKs have literally the best round of ultimates of all classes, so I'm surprised to hear you wouldn't slot even one. Need I point out the templar ults?
The argument was never that other classes don't have advantages, the argument is that when people say "it just shows have far DKs have sunk", it highlights that the place they've sunk to REALLY isn't that far off from some of the other poor performing builds, DKs just never had to pay attention/care because they were so far at the top that class balance meant little when they could both facetank and melt everything (little hyperbole here...). To use a poor anecdotal example, I see DKs as people that once had overpaid wallstreet salaries, they got laid off and now work minimum wage, and expect the poor shlubs that have been working just over minimum wage for the past 2 years to console them. The poor templar shlubs are doing slightly better, but not by much, and they've been in that category for faaaaaar longer. There are far more people in this boat than many magicka DKs ever cared to realize existed. Yes, there are significant issues and things that need to be fixed, but the same can be said for other classes, and have been said. Welcome to the party?
I often say on these forums that if some aspect of the game is poor or under-performing not to try and counter such claims as it is akin to arguing with your boss that you somehow not underpaid.
So I won't.
But I will point out your claim with certainty that DKs have the best ultimates is highly debatable. I walk out of the standard you drop. And simply ignore you for the 8 seconds your corrosive is up. The only one worth a damn is leap and that's only for a stam DK that doesn't have to compromise their hitting power. On my templar, it would be nothing more than a moderate damage CC that didn't even return resources so it would be kind of pointless to run it. Bats and Dawnbreaker are superior options and it isn't close. In truth all class ulimtates are kinda underwhelming for PvP (the NB ones are decent for solo builds I guess).
I will say that you may be correct that the difference in overall power between the two is not that great, but there is a line of demarcation when it comes to viability in PvP and (magicka) Templars are above it whereas (magicka) DKs are below it.
The reason I log and enjoy playing my templar and have relegated my DK to gloried crafter is because templars have enough tools in their kit that if you are aware of its strengths and weaknesses, it is possible to compete and have fun playing one. The DK does NOT. I know exactly what a templar can and cannot do, know when to use its skills and when not to, and I can make a templar work while slotting the type of armor and weapons I want to use. A DK has no native cleanse, range, heal, gap close, execute, mobility, or burst. What a train-wreck. Just put down the staff and pick up a two-hander so you can actually do something while having an excellent magicka dump with reflective scales.
Eric Wrobel and his team have *really* tested my patience the past 5 months with the stupidity that is new channel mechanic, the stupidity that is a single restriction eclipse cast, the stupidity of class shield that is incapable of mitigating even a basic attack, the stupidity of nerfing an underperforming skill like blazing spear twice. None of what I say should be remotely construed as the templar is fine, balanced, or is not in need of serious reform. I will not argue against anything you said about templars. If he and his team once again fails to present a PvP that is remotely balanced for people who wish to do something either than run mobile glass cannons or zerg, I am gone and won't even bother checking in until the next YEAR when they do another balance patch (seriously, wtf?).
Maybe my standards of playability and enjoyment are lower than yours. That's actually quite damning if even magicka DKs fail to reach that.
Make Rush of Agony "Monsters only." People should not be consecutively crowd controlled in a PvP setting. Period.3 -
Ghostbane✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭{★★★★★ · ★★★★★ · ★★ · ★★★★★}350m+ AP PC - EUAddons
AD :: Imported Waffles [37]EP :: Wee ee ee ee ee [16]DC :: Ghostbane's DK [16], Impending Loadscreen [12]PC - NA
AD :: Ghostbane [50], yer ma [43], Sir Humphrey Winterbottom 2.0 [18], robotic baby legs [18]EP :: Wee Mad Arthur [50], avast ye buttcrackz [49], Sir Horace Foghorn [27], Brother Ballbag [24], Scatman John [16]DC :: W T B Waffles [36], Morale Boost [30], W T F Waffles [17], Ghostbanë [15]RIPAD :: Sir Humphrey Winterbottom 1.0 [20]- AP Meter : All your AP needs
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Takllin✭✭✭✭✭
Every Magicka DK thread ever.Jadokis - AD Redguard DK v16 AR 18
Jàsènn - AD Orc Templar 47 AR 10
Jessèn - AD Dunmer DK v16 AR 9 - Former Empress of Blackwater Blade
Tekllin - AD Altmer Sorcerer v16 AR 18 (Ret.)
Tekklin - AD Bosmer Nightblade v16 AR 12 (Ret.)
Jasenn - DC Imperial Templar v16 AR 18 (Ret.)
Jasènn - DC Orc Sorcerer v16 AR 15 (Ret.)0 -
mchermie✭✭✭✭Permablock was never a problem. Fear=GGRetired
NA DC
K-Hole
McHermie NB - AR 42
McHermes DK - AR 18
Lord Typh Templar - AR 113 -
Takllin✭✭✭✭✭
It is the language of my people!Jadokis - AD Redguard DK v16 AR 18
Jàsènn - AD Orc Templar 47 AR 10
Jessèn - AD Dunmer DK v16 AR 9 - Former Empress of Blackwater Blade
Tekllin - AD Altmer Sorcerer v16 AR 18 (Ret.)
Tekklin - AD Bosmer Nightblade v16 AR 12 (Ret.)
Jasenn - DC Imperial Templar v16 AR 18 (Ret.)
Jasènn - DC Orc Sorcerer v16 AR 15 (Ret.)0 -
BuggeX✭✭✭✭✭
✭
reflected a Shooting star today, i got eclipsed
Edited by BuggeX on December 28, 2015 8:03PM#makemagickadkgreataigan
#givemeaexecute
#ineedheal
#betterhotfixgrindspots0 -
RoamingRiverElk✭✭✭✭✭Joy_Division wrote: »
While I agree with the overall idea that perma-blocking was stupid and all classes potentially could abuse it, I think you are understating just how far magicka DK has dropped.
It goes beyond being less than ideal or below-average. It is *not* fun to play
You mention a magicka templar. They are far more playable and enjoyable. They have a gap-closer (even if it gets them killed sometimes), they don't have to derp a resto staff to heal themselves, and they have an execute which, now thanx to ZoS and its infinite (non) wisdom, only works half the time even leaving them defenseless, but these are all things magicka DKs simply can't get. Moreover, they can insta-cleanse themselves, heal themselves while doing DPs, actually have the option to use a ranged spell, and actually have functional utility spells like rune focus and repentance that do something. The only DK ability - including ultimates - I would consider slotting on my bar as a templar is Reflective scales. Maybe igneous shield if were tasked as a group healer.
None of this means templars are anywhere near where NBs and sorcs are ... it just shows have far DKs have sunk.
Agree with Joy here.Disagree, when I played a magicka templar I needed to go resto staff so I had healing ward to counter the million WBs flying around. I never found breath of life sufficient to handle WB when it hits a light armor templar for 12k every second. Dark Flare is a channel, easily telegraphed for a reflect/block/purge, vamp bane is derpy, puncturing sweep has all sorts of issues as you've pointed out in your templar thread, javelin is a joke ... so ... I honestly don't see how you find them so enjoyable. If we're talking pure enjoyment, there is no single greater skill for enjoyment than leap, none. I also found reflecting meteors waaaaay more fun than purging them on a templar. Could just be personal taste, but DK has always been a fun class, and the skills still are, even if the class is a bit sucky at the moment. For your other point, templars have the option to use ranged spells, yes, but each has significant problems - I don't need to tell you that. Jesus beam ain't what it used to be either. Overall I found playing magicka templar far from enjoyable because everything is a channel (which is a monumental fail in pvp) and they don't have the shields or stamina to handle the physical dpsers running around. So yes, they have healing, which is obvious and something DK is lacking and why everyone agrees on a GDB buff, but everything else? I don't think you can make a strong argument that templar is leagues above.
I actually agree about the fun part. DKs have more fun skills than magicka templar.
Agree also that magicka templar "channel" skills need to be re-worked.
However, the templar class has the more complete toolkit than magicka DK right now: it has range, gap-closer, and heals. Sure, you miss with Dark flare sometimes -- but if it were instant cast it would be WAY too strong.As for the gap closer, I simply stopped using it. Frankly, for pvp, it might as well not even exist imo given how often it will completely lock up your character because of the bug that ZOS just doesn't seem capable of fixing. If it just didn't work that'd be one thing, but the bug literally cripples you in every imaginable way, so don't try and sell it to me as a bonus. Russian roulette is not the way to pvp, and certainly not "playable and enjoyable" for a templar.
Yes, it needs fixing.DKs have literally the best round of ultimates of all classes, so I'm surprised to hear you wouldn't slot even one. Need I point out the templar ults?
Yeah templar ultimates are terrible. However, they do get to spec 100% into Thaumaturge and run Dawnbreaker -- which is hands-down the best damage ultimate for a magicka class right now.
I would argues that Nightblades have a better set of ultimates than DKs. Yes, VoB is a bit weak at the moment. But so is Banner and Magma armor. Soul Harvest and Soul Tether are outstanding.The argument was never that other classes don't have advantages, the argument is that when people say "it just shows have far DKs have sunk", it highlights that the place they've sunk to REALLY isn't that far off from some of the other poor performing builds, DKs just never had to pay attention/care because they were so far at the top that class balance meant little when they could both facetank and melt everything (little hyperbole here...). To use a poor anecdotal example, I see DKs as people that once had overpaid wallstreet salaries, they got laid off and now work minimum wage, and expect the poor shlubs that have been working just over minimum wage for the past 2 years to console them. The poor templar shlubs are doing slightly better, but not by much, and they've been in that category for faaaaaar longer. There are far more people in this boat than many magicka DKs ever cared to realize existed. Yes, there are significant issues and things that need to be fixed, but the same can be said for other classes, and have been said. Welcome to the party?
Totally hyperbole. DKs from the 1.5 era and earlier relied heavily on the ignorance of their opponents: standing in Banners or Bats, shooting projectiles at wings, etc. Sure, Battle Roar was a bit strong but only because of the meta it sat in: softcaps, dynamic ultimate.
Which is why i wrote earlier that I don't think that the blocking nerf was that big of a deal for the Magicka DK -- it was simply the last nail in the coffin. Consider the list of (direct and major) DK nerfs since 1.5:
1. Cinder storm loses 30% miss chances.
2. Wings projectiles reduced to 4.
3. Ardent flames passives and burning proc.
4. Whip heal changes to HoT.
5. Loss of unstable flame to Stamina.
6. Battle roar direct nerf (doesn't scale all resources return on magicka).
7. Standard heal debuff and cost increase.
8. Dragon Blood healing obliterated.
Gameplay changes that affected DK more than any other class:
1. Removal of Softcaps
2. Static ultimate
3. no stam regen while blocking.
4. 50% damage debuff in cyro
The reason these gameplay changes crippled magicka DK is because
1. DKs have never had mobility
2. DKs have never had escape
3. DKs were not given an execute
4. DKs don't have high instant DPS to take advantage of removed softcaps -- i.e. because of (1)-(3) they can't simply stack mana and be effective like a NB or Sorc or Templar. The need all stats.
5. DKs relied on Battle Roar to keep themselves alive. They blocked and tanked to build ultimate to Battle Roar to stay alive. Very much the "stand your ground" class which was unique against the mobility and escape of NBs and Sorc. It simply doesn't work anymore because of the afore-mentioned reasons.
Great list, just wanted to add, the change to Max Health multiplier which affected the strength of Igneous Shield and Dragon Blood + the time DKs have time to react to burst damage.Dalris Aalr - Magicka (Stamina) DK | Dalfish - Magicka Sorc | Dal Aalr - Magicka Warden | Dalrish - Mag/Stam NB | Irana Aalr - PvE Templar0 -
RoamingRiverElk✭✭✭✭✭Joy_Division wrote: »Joy_Division wrote: »Darnathian wrote: »
why was permablocking a problem? it was a tank class. that doesnt make sense. and when they put it in damage from sorcs and nbs was already crazy high. made it even easier.
I've already explained and given an example of why permablocking was a problem. You don't have to agree, but you keep talking about permablocking like it was something inherent to DKs - it was a problem across the board. You can't range a magicka DK for (what I hope are) obvious reasons, so you have to be in melee range to kill them. If you couldn't even drain their stam with jabs/puncturing sweep and instead have to eat whips to the face till you're dead, while I'm sure it was fun for the DK, it was stupid as **** for everyone else - not all classes can use fear. I equate permablocking to the same skill level as that required for steel tornado spamming. DKs weren't some special snowflake and the only ones that could do it; it ran counter to the purpose of a feature like block (reactionary) and gave SO many benefits for little sacrifice or skill.
Honestly though, I think part of the problem is that DKs used to have it so good that they just aren't ready to be average, even when the class was in decent shape (like 1.6). They're at the bottom of the barrel now, and while it seems like such a drastic change to go from god-mode to bottom of the barrel, other builds are only smidgens better and are still (relatively) on the same playing field as magicka DKs as far as needing buffs. I played a stamina sorc for the first 6 months of the game, back when everyone needed to run robe and stick or gtfo, so I find the 'woe is me' exaggerated, and just think that people aren't used to having to put up with poor class balance from wrobel like the rest of us have (cough cough, templars) since launch. My DK is rank 24, and used to be my pve main, so it's not like I'm a bystander. I have almost every class to rank 24 (nb is almost alliance skill rank 9) now and have seen the problems (and stupid OP mechanics) inherent to each, and so I find that many people on this magicka DK vein of threads seem to think DK is leagues below every other build in the game, when the reality is that other builds are pretty much in the same level of derpiness, and it only seems like magicka DK is so far below everything else because of how rapidly they changed from best in game to worst. Go play a magicka templar or stamina sorc if you don't believe me, they are in better shape than magicka DK, but not by a whole lot.
DKs need class active and passive skill buffs, not a return of a broken mechanic because it was easy to facetank groups of players. NBs do just fine without permablocking on both magicka and stam builds, so it IS possible to achieve this with a class, wrobel just needs to start putting in real changes. And yes, while all he's talked about is more dots for DKs, you're going to have to join the rest of us that are STILL waiting for wrobel to figure his stuff out. It usually takes multiple patches to fix things because ZOS reasons, so be ready for the long haul unfortunately.
While I agree with the overall idea that perma-blocking was stupid and all classes potentially could abuse it, I think you are understating just how far magicka DK has dropped.
It goes beyond being less than ideal or below-average. It is *not* fun to play
You mention a magicka templar. They are far more playable and enjoyable. They have a gap-closer (even if it gets them killed sometimes), they don't have to derp a resto staff to heal themselves, and they have an execute which, now thanx to ZoS and its infinite (non) wisdom, only works half the time even leaving them defenseless, but these are all things magicka DKs simply can't get. Moreover, they can insta-cleanse themselves, heal themselves while doing DPs, actually have the option to use a ranged spell, and actually have functional utility spells like rune focus and repentance that do something. The only DK ability - including ultimates - I would consider slotting on my bar as a templar is Reflective scales. Maybe igneous shield if were tasked as a group healer.
None of this means templars are anywhere near where NBs and sorcs are ... it just shows have far DKs have sunk.
Disagree, when I played a magicka templar I needed to go resto staff so I had healing ward to counter the million WBs flying around. I never found breath of life sufficient to handle WB when it hits a light armor templar for 12k every second. Dark Flare is a channel, easily telegraphed for a reflect/block/purge, vamp bane is derpy, puncturing sweep has all sorts of issues as you've pointed out in your templar thread, javelin is a joke ... so ... I honestly don't see how you find them so enjoyable. If we're talking pure enjoyment, there is no single greater skill for enjoyment than leap, none. I also found reflecting meteors waaaaay more fun than purging them on a templar. Could just be personal taste, but DK has always been a fun class, and the skills still are, even if the class is a bit sucky at the moment. For your other point, templars have the option to use ranged spells, yes, but each has significant problems - I don't need to tell you that. Jesus beam ain't what it used to be either. Overall I found playing magicka templar far from enjoyable because everything is a channel (which is a monumental fail in pvp) and they don't have the shields or stamina to handle the physical dpsers running around. So yes, they have healing, which is obvious and something DK is lacking and why everyone agrees on a GDB buff, but everything else? I don't think you can make a strong argument that templar is leagues above.
As for the gap closer, I simply stopped using it. Frankly, for pvp, it might as well not even exist imo given how often it will completely lock up your character because of the bug that ZOS just doesn't seem capable of fixing. If it just didn't work that'd be one thing, but the bug literally cripples you in every imaginable way, so don't try and sell it to me as a bonus. Russian roulette is not the way to pvp, and certainly not "playable and enjoyable" for a templar.
DKs have literally the best round of ultimates of all classes, so I'm surprised to hear you wouldn't slot even one. Need I point out the templar ults?
The argument was never that other classes don't have advantages, the argument is that when people say "it just shows have far DKs have sunk", it highlights that the place they've sunk to REALLY isn't that far off from some of the other poor performing builds, DKs just never had to pay attention/care because they were so far at the top that class balance meant little when they could both facetank and melt everything (little hyperbole here...). To use a poor anecdotal example, I see DKs as people that once had overpaid wallstreet salaries, they got laid off and now work minimum wage, and expect the poor shlubs that have been working just over minimum wage for the past 2 years to console them. The poor templar shlubs are doing slightly better, but not by much, and they've been in that category for faaaaaar longer. There are far more people in this boat than many magicka DKs ever cared to realize existed. Yes, there are significant issues and things that need to be fixed, but the same can be said for other classes, and have been said. Welcome to the party?
I often say on these forums that if some aspect of the game is poor or under-performing not to try and counter such claims as it is akin to arguing with your boss that you somehow not underpaid.
So I won't.
But I will point out your claim with certainty that DKs have the best ultimates is highly debatable. I walk out of the standard you drop. And simply ignore you for the 8 seconds your corrosive is up. The only one worth a damn is leap and that's only for a stam DK that doesn't have to compromise their hitting power. On my templar, it would be nothing more than a moderate damage CC that didn't even return resources so it would be kind of pointless to run it. Bats and Dawnbreaker are superior options and it isn't close. In truth all class ulimtates are kinda underwhelming for PvP (the NB ones are decent for solo builds I guess).
I will say that you may be correct that the difference in overall power between the two is not that great, but there is a line of demarcation when it comes to viability in PvP and (magicka) Templars are above it whereas (magicka) DKs are below it.
The reason I log and enjoy playing my templar and have relegated my DK to gloried crafter is because templars have enough tools in their kit that if you are aware of its strengths and weaknesses, it is possible to compete and have fun playing one. The DK does NOT. I know exactly what a templar can and cannot do, know when to use its skills and when not to, and I can make a templar work while slotting the type of armor and weapons I want to use. A DK has no native cleanse, range, heal, gap close, execute, mobility, or burst. What a train-wreck. Just put down the staff and pick up a two-hander so you can actually do something while having an excellent magicka dump with reflective scales.
Eric Wrobel and his team have *really* tested my patience the past 5 months with the stupidity that is new channel mechanic, the stupidity that is a single restriction eclipse cast, the stupidity of class shield that is incapable of mitigating even a basic attack, the stupidity of nerfing an underperforming skill like blazing spear twice. None of what I say should be remotely construed as the templar is fine, balanced, or is not in need of serious reform. I will not argue against anything you said about templars. If he and his team once again fails to present a PvP that is remotely balanced for people who wish to do something either than run mobile glass cannons or zerg, I am gone and won't even bother checking in until the next YEAR when they do another balance patch (seriously, wtf?).
Maybe my standards of playability and enjoyment are lower than yours. That's actually quite damning if even magicka DKs fail to reach that.
Then there's the fact that the closer you are to enemies, the more likely it is that you will be rooted. And... ... *drum roll*... Dragon Leap cannot be activated while rooted! The only ultimate in the game with that "feature". What a great tanking ultimate that is (obviously one of the morphs is meant for that since it gives a shield)...Dalris Aalr - Magicka (Stamina) DK | Dalfish - Magicka Sorc | Dal Aalr - Magicka Warden | Dalrish - Mag/Stam NB | Irana Aalr - PvE Templar0 -
Takllin✭✭✭✭✭RoamingRiverElk wrote: »Joy_Division wrote: »Joy_Division wrote: »Darnathian wrote: »
why was permablocking a problem? it was a tank class. that doesnt make sense. and when they put it in damage from sorcs and nbs was already crazy high. made it even easier.
I've already explained and given an example of why permablocking was a problem. You don't have to agree, but you keep talking about permablocking like it was something inherent to DKs - it was a problem across the board. You can't range a magicka DK for (what I hope are) obvious reasons, so you have to be in melee range to kill them. If you couldn't even drain their stam with jabs/puncturing sweep and instead have to eat whips to the face till you're dead, while I'm sure it was fun for the DK, it was stupid as **** for everyone else - not all classes can use fear. I equate permablocking to the same skill level as that required for steel tornado spamming. DKs weren't some special snowflake and the only ones that could do it; it ran counter to the purpose of a feature like block (reactionary) and gave SO many benefits for little sacrifice or skill.
Honestly though, I think part of the problem is that DKs used to have it so good that they just aren't ready to be average, even when the class was in decent shape (like 1.6). They're at the bottom of the barrel now, and while it seems like such a drastic change to go from god-mode to bottom of the barrel, other builds are only smidgens better and are still (relatively) on the same playing field as magicka DKs as far as needing buffs. I played a stamina sorc for the first 6 months of the game, back when everyone needed to run robe and stick or gtfo, so I find the 'woe is me' exaggerated, and just think that people aren't used to having to put up with poor class balance from wrobel like the rest of us have (cough cough, templars) since launch. My DK is rank 24, and used to be my pve main, so it's not like I'm a bystander. I have almost every class to rank 24 (nb is almost alliance skill rank 9) now and have seen the problems (and stupid OP mechanics) inherent to each, and so I find that many people on this magicka DK vein of threads seem to think DK is leagues below every other build in the game, when the reality is that other builds are pretty much in the same level of derpiness, and it only seems like magicka DK is so far below everything else because of how rapidly they changed from best in game to worst. Go play a magicka templar or stamina sorc if you don't believe me, they are in better shape than magicka DK, but not by a whole lot.
DKs need class active and passive skill buffs, not a return of a broken mechanic because it was easy to facetank groups of players. NBs do just fine without permablocking on both magicka and stam builds, so it IS possible to achieve this with a class, wrobel just needs to start putting in real changes. And yes, while all he's talked about is more dots for DKs, you're going to have to join the rest of us that are STILL waiting for wrobel to figure his stuff out. It usually takes multiple patches to fix things because ZOS reasons, so be ready for the long haul unfortunately.
While I agree with the overall idea that perma-blocking was stupid and all classes potentially could abuse it, I think you are understating just how far magicka DK has dropped.
It goes beyond being less than ideal or below-average. It is *not* fun to play
You mention a magicka templar. They are far more playable and enjoyable. They have a gap-closer (even if it gets them killed sometimes), they don't have to derp a resto staff to heal themselves, and they have an execute which, now thanx to ZoS and its infinite (non) wisdom, only works half the time even leaving them defenseless, but these are all things magicka DKs simply can't get. Moreover, they can insta-cleanse themselves, heal themselves while doing DPs, actually have the option to use a ranged spell, and actually have functional utility spells like rune focus and repentance that do something. The only DK ability - including ultimates - I would consider slotting on my bar as a templar is Reflective scales. Maybe igneous shield if were tasked as a group healer.
None of this means templars are anywhere near where NBs and sorcs are ... it just shows have far DKs have sunk.
Disagree, when I played a magicka templar I needed to go resto staff so I had healing ward to counter the million WBs flying around. I never found breath of life sufficient to handle WB when it hits a light armor templar for 12k every second. Dark Flare is a channel, easily telegraphed for a reflect/block/purge, vamp bane is derpy, puncturing sweep has all sorts of issues as you've pointed out in your templar thread, javelin is a joke ... so ... I honestly don't see how you find them so enjoyable. If we're talking pure enjoyment, there is no single greater skill for enjoyment than leap, none. I also found reflecting meteors waaaaay more fun than purging them on a templar. Could just be personal taste, but DK has always been a fun class, and the skills still are, even if the class is a bit sucky at the moment. For your other point, templars have the option to use ranged spells, yes, but each has significant problems - I don't need to tell you that. Jesus beam ain't what it used to be either. Overall I found playing magicka templar far from enjoyable because everything is a channel (which is a monumental fail in pvp) and they don't have the shields or stamina to handle the physical dpsers running around. So yes, they have healing, which is obvious and something DK is lacking and why everyone agrees on a GDB buff, but everything else? I don't think you can make a strong argument that templar is leagues above.
As for the gap closer, I simply stopped using it. Frankly, for pvp, it might as well not even exist imo given how often it will completely lock up your character because of the bug that ZOS just doesn't seem capable of fixing. If it just didn't work that'd be one thing, but the bug literally cripples you in every imaginable way, so don't try and sell it to me as a bonus. Russian roulette is not the way to pvp, and certainly not "playable and enjoyable" for a templar.
DKs have literally the best round of ultimates of all classes, so I'm surprised to hear you wouldn't slot even one. Need I point out the templar ults?
The argument was never that other classes don't have advantages, the argument is that when people say "it just shows have far DKs have sunk", it highlights that the place they've sunk to REALLY isn't that far off from some of the other poor performing builds, DKs just never had to pay attention/care because they were so far at the top that class balance meant little when they could both facetank and melt everything (little hyperbole here...). To use a poor anecdotal example, I see DKs as people that once had overpaid wallstreet salaries, they got laid off and now work minimum wage, and expect the poor shlubs that have been working just over minimum wage for the past 2 years to console them. The poor templar shlubs are doing slightly better, but not by much, and they've been in that category for faaaaaar longer. There are far more people in this boat than many magicka DKs ever cared to realize existed. Yes, there are significant issues and things that need to be fixed, but the same can be said for other classes, and have been said. Welcome to the party?
I often say on these forums that if some aspect of the game is poor or under-performing not to try and counter such claims as it is akin to arguing with your boss that you somehow not underpaid.
So I won't.
But I will point out your claim with certainty that DKs have the best ultimates is highly debatable. I walk out of the standard you drop. And simply ignore you for the 8 seconds your corrosive is up. The only one worth a damn is leap and that's only for a stam DK that doesn't have to compromise their hitting power. On my templar, it would be nothing more than a moderate damage CC that didn't even return resources so it would be kind of pointless to run it. Bats and Dawnbreaker are superior options and it isn't close. In truth all class ulimtates are kinda underwhelming for PvP (the NB ones are decent for solo builds I guess).
I will say that you may be correct that the difference in overall power between the two is not that great, but there is a line of demarcation when it comes to viability in PvP and (magicka) Templars are above it whereas (magicka) DKs are below it.
The reason I log and enjoy playing my templar and have relegated my DK to gloried crafter is because templars have enough tools in their kit that if you are aware of its strengths and weaknesses, it is possible to compete and have fun playing one. The DK does NOT. I know exactly what a templar can and cannot do, know when to use its skills and when not to, and I can make a templar work while slotting the type of armor and weapons I want to use. A DK has no native cleanse, range, heal, gap close, execute, mobility, or burst. What a train-wreck. Just put down the staff and pick up a two-hander so you can actually do something while having an excellent magicka dump with reflective scales.
Eric Wrobel and his team have *really* tested my patience the past 5 months with the stupidity that is new channel mechanic, the stupidity that is a single restriction eclipse cast, the stupidity of class shield that is incapable of mitigating even a basic attack, the stupidity of nerfing an underperforming skill like blazing spear twice. None of what I say should be remotely construed as the templar is fine, balanced, or is not in need of serious reform. I will not argue against anything you said about templars. If he and his team once again fails to present a PvP that is remotely balanced for people who wish to do something either than run mobile glass cannons or zerg, I am gone and won't even bother checking in until the next YEAR when they do another balance patch (seriously, wtf?).
Maybe my standards of playability and enjoyment are lower than yours. That's actually quite damning if even magicka DKs fail to reach that.
Then there's the fact that the closer you are to enemies, the more likely it is that you will be rooted. And... ... *drum roll*... Dragon Leap cannot be activated while rooted! The only ultimate in the game with that "feature". What a great tanking ultimate that is (obviously one of the morphs is meant for that since it gives a shield)...
It is also the only gap closer which doesn't root your opponentJadokis - AD Redguard DK v16 AR 18
Jàsènn - AD Orc Templar 47 AR 10
Jessèn - AD Dunmer DK v16 AR 9 - Former Empress of Blackwater Blade
Tekllin - AD Altmer Sorcerer v16 AR 18 (Ret.)
Tekklin - AD Bosmer Nightblade v16 AR 12 (Ret.)
Jasenn - DC Imperial Templar v16 AR 18 (Ret.)
Jasènn - DC Orc Sorcerer v16 AR 15 (Ret.)0 -
Ghostbane✭✭✭✭✭
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Oh c'mon, there is at least some stuff we can checkout.{★★★★★ · ★★★★★ · ★★ · ★★★★★}350m+ AP PC - EUAddons
AD :: Imported Waffles [37]EP :: Wee ee ee ee ee [16]DC :: Ghostbane's DK [16], Impending Loadscreen [12]PC - NA
AD :: Ghostbane [50], yer ma [43], Sir Humphrey Winterbottom 2.0 [18], robotic baby legs [18]EP :: Wee Mad Arthur [50], avast ye buttcrackz [49], Sir Horace Foghorn [27], Brother Ballbag [24], Scatman John [16]DC :: W T B Waffles [36], Morale Boost [30], W T F Waffles [17], Ghostbanë [15]RIPAD :: Sir Humphrey Winterbottom 1.0 [20]- AP Meter : All your AP needs
- Greyskull : Customisable, colour-coded Damage Meter
- Auto Research Scrolls : Automatic management of crafting research scrolls
- ITTs Donation Bot : Donation tracker for Guilds
- ITTs Roster Bot : Roster management for Guilds
0 -
vokage89✭✭✭I hear you jules.. i played magika dk since beta.. left right when they put Cp out . i did not want to grind zombies..but they put cap. And coming back.. wow.. my 1.5 dk build hurts my soul..
We lost the only defence we had.. Block.. this new -50% healing.. yay 15% gdb lol.. i can heal for 1 hit .
and they nerfed my heavy armor. no more cc break cost
my dots are outhealed by health regen... and this god damn Fear..
so no tank.. no dmg.. sad time for magika dk.
i give up trying to make it work.. and am working on stam build 1 -
themdogesbite✭✭✭✭✭
✭I'm still trying to get some old 1.3 - 1.4 clips from Magica de Hex that i can upload, but damn bugger is to busy partying all the time. For anyone that dont know him, he was one of the "greats" on EU back in the days.:]1 -
MountainHound✭✭✭✭What was the name of the first song?
I switched my DK to magic and then straight back to stamina again. The lack of AOE on it and ultimate generation is shocking. I get why they made no stamina when blocking but DK should of had immunity to this crap from a skill passive or from the dragon blood ability whilst it is activate.0 -
_Chaos✭✭✭✭✭
✭MountainHound wrote: »What was the name of the first song?
I switched my DK to magic and then straight back to stamina again. The lack of AOE on it and ultimate generation is shocking.
Pretty sure you just highlighted the only two things that a Magicka DK isn't lacking...
Edited by _Chaos on January 4, 2016 3:59PM'Chaos0
