#RIPMagickaDK

Bashev · December 2015

The biggest nerf actually for magicka DKs was the block nerf. Magicka DKs relied a lot on blocking to mitigate damage as they are lacking mobility. Their healing sucks now but you always can slot resto staff and have good heals.

Kova · December 2015

Wait a minute...Your video was good. There's nothing bad about magicka DKs at all in it. No, none of this adds up at all!

Great video, Jules.

Jules · December 2015

Bashev wrote: »

The biggest nerf actually for magicka DKs was the block nerf. Magicka DKs relied a lot on blocking to mitigate damage as they are lacking mobility. Their healing sucks now but you always can slot resto staff and have good heals.

I agree I think that was the nail in the coffin.

Ishammael · December 2015

Bashev wrote: »

The biggest nerf actually for magicka DKs was the block nerf. Magicka DKs relied a lot on blocking to mitigate damage as they are lacking mobility. Their healing sucks now but you always can slot resto staff and have good heals.

Don't agree. Biggest single nerf was the 1.5 to 1.6 transition and the removal of dynamic ultimate.

You have to take everything else and add it up to be equivalent to that change.

Lucky28 · December 2015

Zheg wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

frozywozy wrote: »

@Zheg - Magicka DKs were not in a good place before IC.
They were terribad and would get wrecked by any stamina class easily.

Going to agree with this sentiment. Whip going through dodge and perma-blocking masked the problems with DKs that were exposed when both of these cheeze mechanics went the way of the dodo. Though DKs had good match-up Vs. stam users bc/ Whip at that time

Overpriced standard, pointless cinderstrom, useless DoTs, no mobility/escape, little burst, ultimate nerf, etc., was all there the day 1.6 was released.

I mean, stam sorc has/had it's issues, all forms of templar have/had theirs ... DK wasn't stupid OP in 1.6 like it used to be, but it wasn't garbage. It wasn't just that whip went through dodge, it was that the dmg from whip actually felt like damage when it hit. Just my opinion, obviously not everyone is going to agree.

Well, in fairness you could flick someone in 1.6 and they'd fall over dead.

Darnathian · December 2015

Bashev wrote: »

The biggest nerf actually for magicka DKs was the block nerf. Magicka DKs relied a lot on blocking to mitigate damage as they are lacking mobility. Their healing sucks now but you always can slot resto staff and have good heals.

THIS. SO MUCH THIS. I still dont understand why that was a problem. They created a tank class and then killed it. So frustrating. Its like remove shields from sorcs and cloak from nbs. doesnt make any sense at all.

Jules · December 2015

Just thought you all might find a little irony interesting:

On my stam dk, I recently grinded bow up so that I could get the "Hasty Retreat" passive. This is so I can dodge roll and jet away with speedy goodness. If I didn't have this in so many instances, I would just die immediately.

I find it amusing/terribly sad that the "stand your ground" class has been reduced to literally speccing so they can run away.

kevlarto_ESO · December 2015

I see a lot of talk about DK's being dead, but I run into some dk's that are not killable, they take no damage, take a group of more than 10 people to finally wear them down, is this a stamina DK ? or just some one loaded up with all the latest broken game mechanics, some skill of course, I know there is issue with DK's would love to see more out there takes forever these days to fill the kill 20 quest..

Manoekin · December 2015

kevlarto_ESO wrote: »

I see a lot of talk about DK's being dead, but I run into some dk's that are not killable, they take no damage, take a group of more than 10 people to finally wear them down, is this a stamina DK ? or just some one loaded up with all the latest broken game mechanics, some skill of course, I know there is issue with DK's would love to see more out there takes forever these days to fill the kill 20 quest..

DK's can still be very good, but the play style is completely different.

Zheg · December 2015

Darnathian wrote: »

Bashev wrote: »

The biggest nerf actually for magicka DKs was the block nerf. Magicka DKs relied a lot on blocking to mitigate damage as they are lacking mobility. Their healing sucks now but you always can slot resto staff and have good heals.

THIS. SO MUCH THIS. I still dont understand why that was a problem. They created a tank class and then killed it. So frustrating. Its like remove shields from sorcs and cloak from nbs. doesnt make any sense at all.

Permablocking was an awful problem in the game. Their fix for it ... not such a great fix, but the problem was worse imo - across the board for all classes. Blocking SHOULD be a reactionary thing, and you should be penalized for holding it the entire fight. As I said before, when a magicka templar wearing cyrodiil's light and hitting puncturing sweep nonstop against a permablocking DK dominatrix barely dents them, while it took just a few whips to knock the templar on their behind ... that's poor mechanics. Something that hits 4 times in a second, heals, with 25% dmg mit, and still allows someone to permablock the whole fight just doesn't make sense.

I know it was the bread and butter for DK, and understand why so many are nostalgic/upset about it, but DK should be getting class buffs and changes to allow for survivability without relying on a broken mechanic as a crutch. This could be said for any number of builds throughout the past two years (rollerblades, shield stacking sorcs that could streak 40 times in a row, etc.), so it's not an attempt to pick on DKs. Wings are already a unique and powerful survivability tool, something along the lines of the old version of ash cloud with blind and a buff to GDB would be an interesting start to see what still needs tweaking afterwards.

I feel the same issues with mobility when I play my templar, and both classes used to go vampire for mist form to serve as the escape - but that's been nerfed as well and is no longer as reliable. I'm always partially optimistic when a big balance patch comes, and usually underwhelmed after, but hopefully wrobel has some of these (real) fixes in the thief guild patch, and not something along the lines of "reduced the amount of damage blazing spear does, again,

" for templars and "buffed GDB to include the minor health regen buff as well" for DKs.

Takllin · December 2015

Zheg wrote: »

Darnathian wrote: »

Bashev wrote: »

The biggest nerf actually for magicka DKs was the block nerf. Magicka DKs relied a lot on blocking to mitigate damage as they are lacking mobility. Their healing sucks now but you always can slot resto staff and have good heals.

THIS. SO MUCH THIS. I still dont understand why that was a problem. They created a tank class and then killed it. So frustrating. Its like remove shields from sorcs and cloak from nbs. doesnt make any sense at all.

Permablocking was an awful problem in the game. Their fix for it ... not such a great fix, but the problem was worse imo - across the board for all classes. Blocking SHOULD be a reactionary thing, and you should be penalized for holding it the entire fight. As I said before, when a magicka templar wearing cyrodiil's light and hitting puncturing sweep nonstop against a permablocking DK dominatrix barely dents them, while it took just a few whips to knock the templar on their behind ... that's poor mechanics. Something that hits 4 times in a second, heals, with 25% dmg mit, and still allows someone to permablock the whole fight just doesn't make sense.

I know it was the bread and butter for DK, and understand why so many are nostalgic/upset about it, but DK should be getting class buffs and changes to allow for survivability without relying on a broken mechanic as a crutch. This could be said for any number of builds throughout the past two years (rollerblades, shield stacking sorcs that could streak 40 times in a row, etc.), so it's not an attempt to pick on DKs. Wings are already a unique and powerful survivability tool, something along the lines of the old version of ash cloud with blind and a buff to GDB would be an interesting start to see what still needs tweaking afterwards.

I feel the same issues with mobility when I play my templar, and both classes used to go vampire for mist form to serve as the escape - but that's been nerfed as well and is no longer as reliable. I'm always partially optimistic when a big balance patch comes, and usually underwhelmed after, but hopefully wrobel has some of these (real) fixes in the thief guild patch, and not something along the lines of "reduced the amount of damage blazing spear does, again, " for templars and "buffed GDB to include the minor health regen buff as well" for DKs.

Well said.

I think part of the problems that people attribute to DKs are actually CP/overall balance issues as well.

duuude9192b14_ESO · December 2015

kevlarto_ESO wrote: »

I see a lot of talk about DK's being dead, but I run into some dk's that are not killable, they take no damage, take a group of more than 10 people to finally wear them down, is this a stamina DK ? or just some one loaded up with all the latest broken game mechanics, some skill of course, I know there is issue with DK's would love to see more out there takes forever these days to fill the kill 20 quest..

Possibly the ever elusive and legendary health regen build.

CtrlAltDlt · December 2015

Zheg wrote: »

Darnathian wrote: »

Bashev wrote: »

The biggest nerf actually for magicka DKs was the block nerf. Magicka DKs relied a lot on blocking to mitigate damage as they are lacking mobility. Their healing sucks now but you always can slot resto staff and have good heals.

THIS. SO MUCH THIS. I still dont understand why that was a problem. They created a tank class and then killed it. So frustrating. Its like remove shields from sorcs and cloak from nbs. doesnt make any sense at all.

Permablocking was an awful problem in the game. Their fix for it ... not such a great fix, but the problem was worse imo - across the board for all classes. Blocking SHOULD be a reactionary thing, and you should be penalized for holding it the entire fight. As I said before, when a magicka templar wearing cyrodiil's light and hitting puncturing sweep nonstop against a permablocking DK dominatrix barely dents them, while it took just a few whips to knock the templar on their behind ... that's poor mechanics. Something that hits 4 times in a second, heals, with 25% dmg mit, and still allows someone to permablock the whole fight just doesn't make sense.

I know it was the bread and butter for DK, and understand why so many are nostalgic/upset about it, but DK should be getting class buffs and changes to allow for survivability without relying on a broken mechanic as a crutch. This could be said for any number of builds throughout the past two years (rollerblades, shield stacking sorcs that could streak 40 times in a row, etc.), so it's not an attempt to pick on DKs. Wings are already a unique and powerful survivability tool, something along the lines of the old version of ash cloud with blind and a buff to GDB would be an interesting start to see what still needs tweaking afterwards.

I feel the same issues with mobility when I play my templar, and both classes used to go vampire for mist form to serve as the escape - but that's been nerfed as well and is no longer as reliable. I'm always partially optimistic when a big balance patch comes, and usually underwhelmed after, but hopefully wrobel has some of these (real) fixes in the thief guild patch, and not something along the lines of "reduced the amount of damage blazing spear does, again, " for templars and "buffed GDB to include the minor health regen buff as well" for DKs.

Well said.

RoamingRiverElk · December 2015

Agree about the blocking change and dynamic ulti change being the biggest culprits for the current state of the DKs. Those, and the nerf on Dragon Blood. But really, there just are so many reasons why DKs have suffered. Max health nerf affected the healing on dragon blood and the strength of igneous shield. Magicka DKs need to invest in everything - max magicka, max health, max stamina, magicka and stamina regen, and their class shield is small. Removing soft caps made "all magicka" and "all stamina" builds become the norm, which then was attempted to fix by nerfing damage and healing. But magicka DKs can never be "all magicka" due to the nature of how their defense does not scale with "all magicka", nor can they escape. Thus even their damage suffered and they're left either being true glass cannons or no damage dealing tanks.

What really gets me is how there has been no talk of buffing DK's defense, only buffing the dots. Which is so far from the real problem, which is survivability. Dots are one problem, but fixing that certainly won't fix magicka DKs.

Magicka DKs need to be able to block more attacks, their class shield needs to be stronger, they need to gain ultimate faster (say, give 1 ultimate point for every enemy hit by Deep Breath / Draw Essence (max 8 ultimate per skill use)), Dragon Blood needs to not be affected by the Cyrodiil debuff.

Just look at the passives sorcs and nightblades get... And then they say they're going to buff nightblade passives... What about DKs then?

If their idea of fixing magicka DKs is only buffing dots, I don't even know what to say...

Darnathian · December 2015

Zheg wrote: »

Darnathian wrote: »

Bashev wrote: »

The biggest nerf actually for magicka DKs was the block nerf. Magicka DKs relied a lot on blocking to mitigate damage as they are lacking mobility. Their healing sucks now but you always can slot resto staff and have good heals.

THIS. SO MUCH THIS. I still dont understand why that was a problem. They created a tank class and then killed it. So frustrating. Its like remove shields from sorcs and cloak from nbs. doesnt make any sense at all.

Permablocking was an awful problem in the game. Their fix for it ... not such a great fix, but the problem was worse imo - across the board for all classes. Blocking SHOULD be a reactionary thing, and you should be penalized for holding it the entire fight. As I said before, when a magicka templar wearing cyrodiil's light and hitting puncturing sweep nonstop against a permablocking DK dominatrix barely dents them, while it took just a few whips to knock the templar on their behind ... that's poor mechanics. Something that hits 4 times in a second, heals, with 25% dmg mit, and still allows someone to permablock the whole fight just doesn't make sense.

I know it was the bread and butter for DK, and understand why so many are nostalgic/upset about it, but DK should be getting class buffs and changes to allow for survivability without relying on a broken mechanic as a crutch. This could be said for any number of builds throughout the past two years (rollerblades, shield stacking sorcs that could streak 40 times in a row, etc.), so it's not an attempt to pick on DKs. Wings are already a unique and powerful survivability tool, something along the lines of the old version of ash cloud with blind and a buff to GDB would be an interesting start to see what still needs tweaking afterwards.

I feel the same issues with mobility when I play my templar, and both classes used to go vampire for mist form to serve as the escape - but that's been nerfed as well and is no longer as reliable. I'm always partially optimistic when a big balance patch comes, and usually underwhelmed after, but hopefully wrobel has some of these (real) fixes in the thief guild patch, and not something along the lines of "reduced the amount of damage blazing spear does, again, " for templars and "buffed GDB to include the minor health regen buff as well" for DKs.

why was permablocking a problem? it was a tank class. that doesnt make sense. and when they put it in damage from sorcs and nbs was already crazy high. made it even easier.

Zheg · December 2015

Darnathian wrote: »

why was permablocking a problem? it was a tank class. that doesnt make sense. and when they put it in damage from sorcs and nbs was already crazy high. made it even easier.

I've already explained and given an example of why permablocking was a problem. You don't have to agree, but you keep talking about permablocking like it was something inherent to DKs - it was a problem across the board. You can't range a magicka DK for (what I hope are) obvious reasons, so you have to be in melee range to kill them. If you couldn't even drain their stam with jabs/puncturing sweep and instead have to eat whips to the face till you're dead, while I'm sure it was fun for the DK, it was stupid as **** for everyone else - not all classes can use fear. I equate permablocking to the same skill level as that required for steel tornado spamming. DKs weren't some special snowflake and the only ones that could do it; it ran counter to the purpose of a feature like block (reactionary) and gave SO many benefits for little sacrifice or skill.

Honestly though, I think part of the problem is that DKs used to have it so good that they just aren't ready to be average, even when the class was in decent shape (like 1.6). They're at the bottom of the barrel now, and while it seems like such a drastic change to go from god-mode to bottom of the barrel, other builds are only smidgens better and are still (relatively) on the same playing field as magicka DKs as far as needing buffs. I played a stamina sorc for the first 6 months of the game, back when everyone needed to run robe and stick or gtfo, so I find the 'woe is me' exaggerated, and just think that people aren't used to having to put up with poor class balance from wrobel like the rest of us have (cough cough, templars) since launch. My DK is rank 24, and used to be my pve main, so it's not like I'm a bystander. I have almost every class to rank 24 (nb is almost alliance skill rank 9) now and have seen the problems (and stupid OP mechanics) inherent to each, and so I find that many people on this magicka DK vein of threads seem to think DK is leagues below every other build in the game, when the reality is that other builds are pretty much in the same level of derpiness, and it only seems like magicka DK is so far below everything else because of how rapidly they changed from best in game to worst. Go play a magicka templar or stamina sorc if you don't believe me, they are in better shape than magicka DK, but not by a whole lot.

DKs need class active and passive skill buffs, not a return of a broken mechanic because it was easy to facetank groups of players. NBs do just fine without permablocking on both magicka and stam builds, so it IS possible to achieve this with a class, wrobel just needs to start putting in real changes. And yes, while all he's talked about is more dots for DKs, you're going to have to join the rest of us that are STILL waiting for wrobel to figure his stuff out. It usually takes multiple patches to fix things because ZOS reasons, so be ready for the long haul unfortunately.

Ghost-Shot · December 2015

Darnathian wrote: »

Zheg wrote: »

Darnathian wrote: »

Bashev wrote: »

The biggest nerf actually for magicka DKs was the block nerf. Magicka DKs relied a lot on blocking to mitigate damage as they are lacking mobility. Their healing sucks now but you always can slot resto staff and have good heals.

THIS. SO MUCH THIS. I still dont understand why that was a problem. They created a tank class and then killed it. So frustrating. Its like remove shields from sorcs and cloak from nbs. doesnt make any sense at all.

Permablocking was an awful problem in the game. Their fix for it ... not such a great fix, but the problem was worse imo - across the board for all classes. Blocking SHOULD be a reactionary thing, and you should be penalized for holding it the entire fight. As I said before, when a magicka templar wearing cyrodiil's light and hitting puncturing sweep nonstop against a permablocking DK dominatrix barely dents them, while it took just a few whips to knock the templar on their behind ... that's poor mechanics. Something that hits 4 times in a second, heals, with 25% dmg mit, and still allows someone to permablock the whole fight just doesn't make sense.

I know it was the bread and butter for DK, and understand why so many are nostalgic/upset about it, but DK should be getting class buffs and changes to allow for survivability without relying on a broken mechanic as a crutch. This could be said for any number of builds throughout the past two years (rollerblades, shield stacking sorcs that could streak 40 times in a row, etc.), so it's not an attempt to pick on DKs. Wings are already a unique and powerful survivability tool, something along the lines of the old version of ash cloud with blind and a buff to GDB would be an interesting start to see what still needs tweaking afterwards.

I feel the same issues with mobility when I play my templar, and both classes used to go vampire for mist form to serve as the escape - but that's been nerfed as well and is no longer as reliable. I'm always partially optimistic when a big balance patch comes, and usually underwhelmed after, but hopefully wrobel has some of these (real) fixes in the thief guild patch, and not something along the lines of "reduced the amount of damage blazing spear does, again, " for templars and "buffed GDB to include the minor health regen buff as well" for DKs.

Zheg wrote: »

Darnathian wrote: »

Bashev wrote: »

The biggest nerf actually for magicka DKs was the block nerf. Magicka DKs relied a lot on blocking to mitigate damage as they are lacking mobility. Their healing sucks now but you always can slot resto staff and have good heals.

THIS. SO MUCH THIS. I still dont understand why that was a problem. They created a tank class and then killed it. So frustrating. Its like remove shields from sorcs and cloak from nbs. doesnt make any sense at all.

Permablocking was an awful problem in the game. Their fix for it ... not such a great fix, but the problem was worse imo - across the board for all classes. Blocking SHOULD be a reactionary thing, and you should be penalized for holding it the entire fight. As I said before, when a magicka templar wearing cyrodiil's light and hitting puncturing sweep nonstop against a permablocking DK dominatrix barely dents them, while it took just a few whips to knock the templar on their behind ... that's poor mechanics. Something that hits 4 times in a second, heals, with 25% dmg mit, and still allows someone to permablock the whole fight just doesn't make sense.

I know it was the bread and butter for DK, and understand why so many are nostalgic/upset about it, but DK should be getting class buffs and changes to allow for survivability without relying on a broken mechanic as a crutch. This could be said for any number of builds throughout the past two years (rollerblades, shield stacking sorcs that could streak 40 times in a row, etc.), so it's not an attempt to pick on DKs. Wings are already a unique and powerful survivability tool, something along the lines of the old version of ash cloud with blind and a buff to GDB would be an interesting start to see what still needs tweaking afterwards.

I feel the same issues with mobility when I play my templar, and both classes used to go vampire for mist form to serve as the escape - but that's been nerfed as well and is no longer as reliable. I'm always partially optimistic when a big balance patch comes, and usually underwhelmed after, but hopefully wrobel has some of these (real) fixes in the thief guild patch, and not something along the lines of "reduced the amount of damage blazing spear does, again, " for templars and "buffed GDB to include the minor health regen buff as well" for DKs.

why was permablocking a problem? it was a tank class. that doesnt make sense. and when they put it in damage from sorcs and nbs was already crazy high. made it even easier.

i think the point is that you should have to spec specifically to permablock if thats how you want to play it, before we could just never let go of block and still deal really good damage, i want to see some DK buffs but as far as blocking goes you should have to choose tanky or damage. The problem right now is we have neither.

zyk · December 2015

Zheg wrote: »

Honestly though, I think part of the problem is that DKs used to have it so good that they just aren't ready to be average, even when the class was in decent shape (like 1.6). They're at the bottom of the barrel now, and while it seems like such a drastic change to go from god-mode to bottom of the barrel, other builds are only smidgens better and are still (relatively) on the same playing field as magicka DKs as far as needing buffs.

I agree completely. IMO, overall class and resource (mag/stam) balance is now better than ever. Magicka DKs certainly are not as uncompetitive as Stamina builds were last year. I think we'd see a lot more of them if Stamina DKs weren't so potent.

I tend to think class/resource balance is now so close, it is difficult to debate balance issues without a comprehensive and objective analysis of all class abilities and how well they synergize with general abilities in different contexts. Surely ZOS does this internally. I wish they'd share some of this information so we'd have a starting point for analysis and could better understand their decision-making process.

Glory · December 2015

I have recently returned to magicka DK to enjoy the challenge. I am not doing so hot at it, and although I am not great at this game I can confirm that there is are definitely some changes that could be made to make magicka DK's more accessible/fun.

Hopefully the incoming class changes bring up magicka DK, but not so much that it's good enough and I have to switch to whatever is the new TOTM (newly coined term for "trash of the month").

Then again, I am #1 pug NA so take my thoughts with a grain of salt.

Xsorus · December 2015

Zheg wrote: »

Darnathian wrote: »

why was permablocking a problem? it was a tank class. that doesnt make sense. and when they put it in damage from sorcs and nbs was already crazy high. made it even easier.

I've already explained and given an example of why permablocking was a problem. You don't have to agree, but you keep talking about permablocking like it was something inherent to DKs - it was a problem across the board. You can't range a magicka DK for (what I hope are) obvious reasons, so you have to be in melee range to kill them. If you couldn't even drain their stam with jabs/puncturing sweep and instead have to eat whips to the face till you're dead, while I'm sure it was fun for the DK, it was stupid as **** for everyone else - not all classes can use fear. I equate permablocking to the same skill level as that required for steel tornado spamming. DKs weren't some special snowflake and the only ones that could do it; it ran counter to the purpose of a feature like block (reactionary) and gave SO many benefits for little sacrifice or skill.

Honestly though, I think part of the problem is that DKs used to have it so good that they just aren't ready to be average, even when the class was in decent shape (like 1.6). They're at the bottom of the barrel now, and while it seems like such a drastic change to go from god-mode to bottom of the barrel, other builds are only smidgens better and are still (relatively) on the same playing field as magicka DKs as far as needing buffs. I played a stamina sorc for the first 6 months of the game, back when everyone needed to run robe and stick or gtfo, so I find the 'woe is me' exaggerated, and just think that people aren't used to having to put up with poor class balance from wrobel like the rest of us have (cough cough, templars) since launch. My DK is rank 24, and used to be my pve main, so it's not like I'm a bystander. I have almost every class to rank 24 (nb is almost alliance skill rank 9) now and have seen the problems (and stupid OP mechanics) inherent to each, and so I find that many people on this magicka DK vein of threads seem to think DK is leagues below every other build in the game, when the reality is that other builds are pretty much in the same level of derpiness, and it only seems like magicka DK is so far below everything else because of how rapidly they changed from best in game to worst. Go play a magicka templar or stamina sorc if you don't believe me, they are in better shape than magicka DK, but not by a whole lot.

DKs need class active and passive skill buffs, not a return of a broken mechanic because it was easy to facetank groups of players. NBs do just fine without permablocking on both magicka and stam builds, so it IS possible to achieve this with a class, wrobel just needs to start putting in real changes. And yes, while all he's talked about is more dots for DKs, you're going to have to join the rest of us that are STILL waiting for wrobel to figure his stuff out. It usually takes multiple patches to fix things because ZOS reasons, so be ready for the long haul unfortunately.

Let's look at the issue you are having with previous dks, they could stand there blocking while whipping you in the face and killing you. If the block nerf was removed right now could a dk stand in your face and whip you to death? No they could not because thanks to the 50% battle spirit debuff whip is not going to kill anyone half way competent. I also find it hilarious people have a problem with a dk standing there blocking all day but zero issue when a sorc can stand there all day doing the same thing with damage shields or nigjtblades cloaking over and over again.

This isn't a case of magical dks just being slightly worse from god mode anymore, they removed the classes only form of defense which was block, then gutted what self heals it had. Look at sorcs right now, would anyone play a sorc right now if they did half the damage had no mobility and damage shields? Hell no they wouldn't and that's what a magical dk is right now.

The block nerf also did another thing as well, it absolutely made heavy armor which was already *** even worse... It was a heavy handed nerf that made the game worse over all because it resulted in them applying some of that mitigation we previously had over to the battle spirit debuff.. Which resulted in pretty much every thing but damage stacking builds going bye bye.

There is a reason nightblades and sorcs are so rampant right now and this is one of the causes.. It was not a good change for the game.. At all..

Zheg · December 2015

Xsorus wrote: »

Zheg wrote: »

Darnathian wrote: »

why was permablocking a problem? it was a tank class. that doesnt make sense. and when they put it in damage from sorcs and nbs was already crazy high. made it even easier.

I've already explained and given an example of why permablocking was a problem. You don't have to agree, but you keep talking about permablocking like it was something inherent to DKs - it was a problem across the board. You can't range a magicka DK for (what I hope are) obvious reasons, so you have to be in melee range to kill them. If you couldn't even drain their stam with jabs/puncturing sweep and instead have to eat whips to the face till you're dead, while I'm sure it was fun for the DK, it was stupid as **** for everyone else - not all classes can use fear. I equate permablocking to the same skill level as that required for steel tornado spamming. DKs weren't some special snowflake and the only ones that could do it; it ran counter to the purpose of a feature like block (reactionary) and gave SO many benefits for little sacrifice or skill.

Honestly though, I think part of the problem is that DKs used to have it so good that they just aren't ready to be average, even when the class was in decent shape (like 1.6). They're at the bottom of the barrel now, and while it seems like such a drastic change to go from god-mode to bottom of the barrel, other builds are only smidgens better and are still (relatively) on the same playing field as magicka DKs as far as needing buffs. I played a stamina sorc for the first 6 months of the game, back when everyone needed to run robe and stick or gtfo, so I find the 'woe is me' exaggerated, and just think that people aren't used to having to put up with poor class balance from wrobel like the rest of us have (cough cough, templars) since launch. My DK is rank 24, and used to be my pve main, so it's not like I'm a bystander. I have almost every class to rank 24 (nb is almost alliance skill rank 9) now and have seen the problems (and stupid OP mechanics) inherent to each, and so I find that many people on this magicka DK vein of threads seem to think DK is leagues below every other build in the game, when the reality is that other builds are pretty much in the same level of derpiness, and it only seems like magicka DK is so far below everything else because of how rapidly they changed from best in game to worst. Go play a magicka templar or stamina sorc if you don't believe me, they are in better shape than magicka DK, but not by a whole lot.

DKs need class active and passive skill buffs, not a return of a broken mechanic because it was easy to facetank groups of players. NBs do just fine without permablocking on both magicka and stam builds, so it IS possible to achieve this with a class, wrobel just needs to start putting in real changes. And yes, while all he's talked about is more dots for DKs, you're going to have to join the rest of us that are STILL waiting for wrobel to figure his stuff out. It usually takes multiple patches to fix things because ZOS reasons, so be ready for the long haul unfortunately.

Let's look at the issue you are having with previous dks, they could stand there blocking while whipping you in the face and killing you. If the block nerf was removed right now could a dk stand in your face and whip you to death? No they could not because thanks to the 50% battle spirit debuff whip is not going to kill anyone half way competent. I also find it hilarious people have a problem with a dk standing there blocking all day but zero issue when a sorc can stand there all day doing the same thing with damage shields or nigjtblades cloaking over and over again.

This isn't a case of magical dks just being slightly worse from god mode anymore, they removed the classes only form of defense which was block, then gutted what self heals it had. Look at sorcs right now, would anyone play a sorc right now if they did half the damage had no mobility and damage shields? Hell no they wouldn't and that's what a magical dk is right now.

The block nerf also did another thing as well, it absolutely made heavy armor which was already *** even worse... It was a heavy handed nerf that made the game worse over all because it resulted in them applying some of that mitigation we previously had over to the battle spirit debuff.. Which resulted in pretty much every thing but damage stacking builds going bye bye.

There is a reason nightblades and sorcs are so rampant right now and this is one of the causes.. It was not a good change for the game.. At all..

I mentioned sorc shield stacking being a problem (so as to not just pick on DKs) in the previous post, you're reinforcing my point about DKs thinking permablock was a DK class thing (it's an everybody thing, DKs just made it their bread and butter for 2 years in place of legitimate built-in class mechanics outside of obsidian shield and wings), and the permablock example was an example at the time it was still in place and yes - broken. Even with the battle spirit being what it currently is, permablock would still be an issue. Battle spirit changes are a whole different set of problems, that again, are not just limited to DKs.

I'd also like to smirk when I hear you say permablocking was a DKs only form of defense - clearly wings are useful. Clearly the good players realized ash cloud used to be useful. While obsidian shield isn't anywhere near where it needs to be, it's as much a form of defense as a templar's derpy blazing shield - yet lasts a lot longer than the templars, gives back stam, and a heal bonus. Go ahead and compare the two, it's just further evidence that almost all of the issues that DKs are complaining about are shared by templars - the only exception being healing.

No one is saying DK doesn't have issues, what I'm saying is that other classes do as well, and it's disingenuous to try and phrase the situation as DKs being so far below everything else when the truth is that they're only a tiny bit below some of the other underachieving builds. Pretty much everyone seems to already agree that they need better healing and defensive capabilities if sorcs and NB are going to be the only inherently mobile classes, so it sounds like you're just trying to argue because you want to be able to hold block for the entire fight again and not have to think about when to use a defensive skill instead.

Xsorus · December 2015

Zheg wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

Zheg wrote: »

Darnathian wrote: »

why was permablocking a problem? it was a tank class. that doesnt make sense. and when they put it in damage from sorcs and nbs was already crazy high. made it even easier.

I've already explained and given an example of why permablocking was a problem. You don't have to agree, but you keep talking about permablocking like it was something inherent to DKs - it was a problem across the board. You can't range a magicka DK for (what I hope are) obvious reasons, so you have to be in melee range to kill them. If you couldn't even drain their stam with jabs/puncturing sweep and instead have to eat whips to the face till you're dead, while I'm sure it was fun for the DK, it was stupid as **** for everyone else - not all classes can use fear. I equate permablocking to the same skill level as that required for steel tornado spamming. DKs weren't some special snowflake and the only ones that could do it; it ran counter to the purpose of a feature like block (reactionary) and gave SO many benefits for little sacrifice or skill.

Honestly though, I think part of the problem is that DKs used to have it so good that they just aren't ready to be average, even when the class was in decent shape (like 1.6). They're at the bottom of the barrel now, and while it seems like such a drastic change to go from god-mode to bottom of the barrel, other builds are only smidgens better and are still (relatively) on the same playing field as magicka DKs as far as needing buffs. I played a stamina sorc for the first 6 months of the game, back when everyone needed to run robe and stick or gtfo, so I find the 'woe is me' exaggerated, and just think that people aren't used to having to put up with poor class balance from wrobel like the rest of us have (cough cough, templars) since launch. My DK is rank 24, and used to be my pve main, so it's not like I'm a bystander. I have almost every class to rank 24 (nb is almost alliance skill rank 9) now and have seen the problems (and stupid OP mechanics) inherent to each, and so I find that many people on this magicka DK vein of threads seem to think DK is leagues below every other build in the game, when the reality is that other builds are pretty much in the same level of derpiness, and it only seems like magicka DK is so far below everything else because of how rapidly they changed from best in game to worst. Go play a magicka templar or stamina sorc if you don't believe me, they are in better shape than magicka DK, but not by a whole lot.

DKs need class active and passive skill buffs, not a return of a broken mechanic because it was easy to facetank groups of players. NBs do just fine without permablocking on both magicka and stam builds, so it IS possible to achieve this with a class, wrobel just needs to start putting in real changes. And yes, while all he's talked about is more dots for DKs, you're going to have to join the rest of us that are STILL waiting for wrobel to figure his stuff out. It usually takes multiple patches to fix things because ZOS reasons, so be ready for the long haul unfortunately.

Let's look at the issue you are having with previous dks, they could stand there blocking while whipping you in the face and killing you. If the block nerf was removed right now could a dk stand in your face and whip you to death? No they could not because thanks to the 50% battle spirit debuff whip is not going to kill anyone half way competent. I also find it hilarious people have a problem with a dk standing there blocking all day but zero issue when a sorc can stand there all day doing the same thing with damage shields or nigjtblades cloaking over and over again.

This isn't a case of magical dks just being slightly worse from god mode anymore, they removed the classes only form of defense which was block, then gutted what self heals it had. Look at sorcs right now, would anyone play a sorc right now if they did half the damage had no mobility and damage shields? Hell no they wouldn't and that's what a magical dk is right now.

The block nerf also did another thing as well, it absolutely made heavy armor which was already *** even worse... It was a heavy handed nerf that made the game worse over all because it resulted in them applying some of that mitigation we previously had over to the battle spirit debuff.. Which resulted in pretty much every thing but damage stacking builds going bye bye.

There is a reason nightblades and sorcs are so rampant right now and this is one of the causes.. It was not a good change for the game.. At all..

I mentioned sorc shield stacking being a problem (so as to not just pick on DKs) in the previous post, you're reinforcing my point about DKs thinking permablock was a DK class thing (it's an everybody thing, DKs just made it their bread and butter for 2 years in place of legitimate built-in class mechanics outside of obsidian shield and wings), and the permablock example was an example at the time it was still in place and yes - broken. Even with the battle spirit being what it currently is, permablock would still be an issue. Battle spirit changes are a whole different set of problems, that again, are not just limited to DKs.

I'd also like to smirk when I hear you say permablocking was a DKs only form of defense - clearly wings are useful. Clearly the good players realized ash cloud used to be useful. While obsidian shield isn't anywhere near where it needs to be, it's as much a form of defense as a templar's derpy blazing shield - yet lasts a lot longer than the templars, gives back stam, and a heal bonus. Go ahead and compare the two, it's just further evidence that almost all of the issues that DKs are complaining about are shared by templars - the only exception being healing.

No one is saying DK doesn't have issues, what I'm saying is that other classes do as well, and it's disingenuous to try and phrase the situation as DKs being so far below everything else when the truth is that they're only a tiny bit below some of the other underachieving builds. Pretty much everyone seems to already agree that they need better healing and defensive capabilities if sorcs and NB are going to be the only inherently mobile classes, so it sounds like you're just trying to argue because you want to be able to hold block for the entire fight again and not have to think about when to use a defensive skill instead.

No it's pretty much a dk thing; sorcs never relied on block as much as dks because they had shields and you got no mitigation from it since you had shields up, yes you would use it for cc blocking purposes but most of the time sorcs weren't using blocking, same with nightblades.. You basically had one setup that used it decently enough and that was sap tank.. And sap tank is still viable why? Because you can get stamina back easily while blocking with siphoning attacks.
What about Templars? Most of them relied on shields just like sorcs since you couldn't use your primary attack while blocking. Yes you could have some blocking Templars but the vast majority weren't relying on it. Mean while dks before the nerf were vastly using it because it was our primary form of defense against anything that wasn't a projectile.
Ash cloud itself was another huge nerf but that came before the block nerf and while a big ole nerf didn't render the magic dk useless. Hell even the changing of wings to just 4 hits didn't make it useless... No the removal of blocking stamina regen is what gutted the dk.

Also no one uses obsidian shield for a damage shield.. It's worse then blazing shield for that.. It's primary use is the healing buff and the stamina gain.. That's it... You could remove the damage shield entirely and it would still be used just for that.

It's also funny your bring up Templars right now; because right now Templars are better then magical dks because of the issue you list.. Healing and this goes completely without saying they do more damage in pvp as well.

It also has nothing to do with holding down the button on block either, the change itself completely gimped a entire portion of a class and made the game worse over all like I said.. The reason things like battle spirit exists is not an unrelated issue.. It was added to the game because damage without block and dodge mitigation was insane in 1.6... They removed active defense and added passive defense into the game, so you talking about being able to hold block and not having to think about it is hilarious since they bloody just gave you the mitigation without having to think about it. This of course made the game worse over all as it makes 1vx and pushes everyone into extreme damage mode to counter act a 50% damage nerf, anything that doesn't do amazing damage like whip for example also sucks ass.

Basically it all was a chain reaction of bad ideas that can be traced back to things like the block nerf.

Joy_Division · December 2015

Zheg wrote: »

Darnathian wrote: »

why was permablocking a problem? it was a tank class. that doesnt make sense. and when they put it in damage from sorcs and nbs was already crazy high. made it even easier.

I've already explained and given an example of why permablocking was a problem. You don't have to agree, but you keep talking about permablocking like it was something inherent to DKs - it was a problem across the board. You can't range a magicka DK for (what I hope are) obvious reasons, so you have to be in melee range to kill them. If you couldn't even drain their stam with jabs/puncturing sweep and instead have to eat whips to the face till you're dead, while I'm sure it was fun for the DK, it was stupid as **** for everyone else - not all classes can use fear. I equate permablocking to the same skill level as that required for steel tornado spamming. DKs weren't some special snowflake and the only ones that could do it; it ran counter to the purpose of a feature like block (reactionary) and gave SO many benefits for little sacrifice or skill.

Honestly though, I think part of the problem is that DKs used to have it so good that they just aren't ready to be average, even when the class was in decent shape (like 1.6). They're at the bottom of the barrel now, and while it seems like such a drastic change to go from god-mode to bottom of the barrel, other builds are only smidgens better and are still (relatively) on the same playing field as magicka DKs as far as needing buffs. I played a stamina sorc for the first 6 months of the game, back when everyone needed to run robe and stick or gtfo, so I find the 'woe is me' exaggerated, and just think that people aren't used to having to put up with poor class balance from wrobel like the rest of us have (cough cough, templars) since launch. My DK is rank 24, and used to be my pve main, so it's not like I'm a bystander. I have almost every class to rank 24 (nb is almost alliance skill rank 9) now and have seen the problems (and stupid OP mechanics) inherent to each, and so I find that many people on this magicka DK vein of threads seem to think DK is leagues below every other build in the game, when the reality is that other builds are pretty much in the same level of derpiness, and it only seems like magicka DK is so far below everything else because of how rapidly they changed from best in game to worst. Go play a magicka templar or stamina sorc if you don't believe me, they are in better shape than magicka DK, but not by a whole lot.

DKs need class active and passive skill buffs, not a return of a broken mechanic because it was easy to facetank groups of players. NBs do just fine without permablocking on both magicka and stam builds, so it IS possible to achieve this with a class, wrobel just needs to start putting in real changes. And yes, while all he's talked about is more dots for DKs, you're going to have to join the rest of us that are STILL waiting for wrobel to figure his stuff out. It usually takes multiple patches to fix things because ZOS reasons, so be ready for the long haul unfortunately.

While I agree with the overall idea that perma-blocking was stupid and all classes potentially could abuse it, I think you are understating just how far magicka DK has dropped.

It goes beyond being less than ideal or below-average. It is *not* fun to play

You mention a magicka templar. They are far more playable and enjoyable. They have a gap-closer (even if it gets them killed sometimes), they don't have to derp a resto staff to heal themselves, and they have an execute which, now thanx to ZoS and its infinite (non) wisdom, only works half the time even leaving them defenseless, but these are all things magicka DKs simply can't get. Moreover, they can insta-cleanse themselves, heal themselves while doing DPs, actually have the option to use a ranged spell, and actually have functional utility spells like rune focus and repentance that do something. The only DK ability - including ultimates - I would consider slotting on my bar as a templar is Reflective scales. Maybe igneous shield if were tasked as a group healer.

None of this means templars are anywhere near where NBs and sorcs are ... it just shows have far DKs have sunk.

Zheg · December 2015

Joy_Division wrote: »

Zheg wrote: »

Darnathian wrote: »

why was permablocking a problem? it was a tank class. that doesnt make sense. and when they put it in damage from sorcs and nbs was already crazy high. made it even easier.

I've already explained and given an example of why permablocking was a problem. You don't have to agree, but you keep talking about permablocking like it was something inherent to DKs - it was a problem across the board. You can't range a magicka DK for (what I hope are) obvious reasons, so you have to be in melee range to kill them. If you couldn't even drain their stam with jabs/puncturing sweep and instead have to eat whips to the face till you're dead, while I'm sure it was fun for the DK, it was stupid as **** for everyone else - not all classes can use fear. I equate permablocking to the same skill level as that required for steel tornado spamming. DKs weren't some special snowflake and the only ones that could do it; it ran counter to the purpose of a feature like block (reactionary) and gave SO many benefits for little sacrifice or skill.

Honestly though, I think part of the problem is that DKs used to have it so good that they just aren't ready to be average, even when the class was in decent shape (like 1.6). They're at the bottom of the barrel now, and while it seems like such a drastic change to go from god-mode to bottom of the barrel, other builds are only smidgens better and are still (relatively) on the same playing field as magicka DKs as far as needing buffs. I played a stamina sorc for the first 6 months of the game, back when everyone needed to run robe and stick or gtfo, so I find the 'woe is me' exaggerated, and just think that people aren't used to having to put up with poor class balance from wrobel like the rest of us have (cough cough, templars) since launch. My DK is rank 24, and used to be my pve main, so it's not like I'm a bystander. I have almost every class to rank 24 (nb is almost alliance skill rank 9) now and have seen the problems (and stupid OP mechanics) inherent to each, and so I find that many people on this magicka DK vein of threads seem to think DK is leagues below every other build in the game, when the reality is that other builds are pretty much in the same level of derpiness, and it only seems like magicka DK is so far below everything else because of how rapidly they changed from best in game to worst. Go play a magicka templar or stamina sorc if you don't believe me, they are in better shape than magicka DK, but not by a whole lot.

DKs need class active and passive skill buffs, not a return of a broken mechanic because it was easy to facetank groups of players. NBs do just fine without permablocking on both magicka and stam builds, so it IS possible to achieve this with a class, wrobel just needs to start putting in real changes. And yes, while all he's talked about is more dots for DKs, you're going to have to join the rest of us that are STILL waiting for wrobel to figure his stuff out. It usually takes multiple patches to fix things because ZOS reasons, so be ready for the long haul unfortunately.

While I agree with the overall idea that perma-blocking was stupid and all classes potentially could abuse it, I think you are understating just how far magicka DK has dropped.

It goes beyond being less than ideal or below-average. It is *not* fun to play

You mention a magicka templar. They are far more playable and enjoyable. They have a gap-closer (even if it gets them killed sometimes), they don't have to derp a resto staff to heal themselves, and they have an execute which, now thanx to ZoS and its infinite (non) wisdom, only works half the time even leaving them defenseless, but these are all things magicka DKs simply can't get. Moreover, they can insta-cleanse themselves, heal themselves while doing DPs, actually have the option to use a ranged spell, and actually have functional utility spells like rune focus and repentance that do something. The only DK ability - including ultimates - I would consider slotting on my bar as a templar is Reflective scales. Maybe igneous shield if were tasked as a group healer.

None of this means templars are anywhere near where NBs and sorcs are ... it just shows have far DKs have sunk.

Disagree, when I played a magicka templar I needed to go resto staff so I had healing ward to counter the million WBs flying around. I never found breath of life sufficient to handle WB when it hits a light armor templar for 12k every second. Dark Flare is a channel, easily telegraphed for a reflect/block/purge, vamp bane is derpy, puncturing sweep has all sorts of issues as you've pointed out in your templar thread, javelin is a joke ... so ... I honestly don't see how you find them so enjoyable. If we're talking pure enjoyment, there is no single greater skill for enjoyment than leap, none. I also found reflecting meteors waaaaay more fun than purging them on a templar. Could just be personal taste, but DK has always been a fun class, and the skills still are, even if the class is a bit sucky at the moment. For your other point, templars have the option to use ranged spells, yes, but each has significant problems - I don't need to tell you that. Jesus beam ain't what it used to be either. Overall I found playing magicka templar far from enjoyable because everything is a channel (which is a monumental fail in pvp) and they don't have the shields or stamina to handle the physical dpsers running around. So yes, they have healing, which is obvious and something DK is lacking and why everyone agrees on a GDB buff, but everything else? I don't think you can make a strong argument that templar is leagues above.

As for the gap closer, I simply stopped using it. Frankly, for pvp, it might as well not even exist imo given how often it will completely lock up your character because of the bug that ZOS just doesn't seem capable of fixing. If it just didn't work that'd be one thing, but the bug literally cripples you in every imaginable way, so don't try and sell it to me as a bonus. Russian roulette is not the way to pvp, and certainly not "playable and enjoyable" for a templar.

DKs have literally the best round of ultimates of all classes, so I'm surprised to hear you wouldn't slot even one. Need I point out the templar ults?

The argument was never that other classes don't have advantages, the argument is that when people say "it just shows have far DKs have sunk", it highlights that the place they've sunk to REALLY isn't that far off from some of the other poor performing builds, DKs just never had to pay attention/care because they were so far at the top that class balance meant little when they could both facetank and melt everything (little hyperbole here...). To use a poor anecdotal example, I see DKs as people that once had overpaid wallstreet salaries, they got laid off and now work minimum wage, and expect the poor shlubs that have been working just over minimum wage for the past 2 years to console them. The poor templar shlubs are doing slightly better, but not by much, and they've been in that category for faaaaaar longer. There are far more people in this boat than many magicka DKs ever cared to realize existed. Yes, there are significant issues and things that need to be fixed, but the same can be said for other classes, and have been said. Welcome to the party?

BuggeX · December 2015

Why are you still saying that the removal of stam regen broke the DK?
It doesnt, i Play magicka DK wiht duo s/b with 17k Stamina, and can block Long enought.
Even with x5 LA i can block long enought to kill my target.

The Problem is the DMG we do, the battleshit buff and CPs broke us down.
You know anyone who has 300+ CPs, 50 for spellres, 50 for Fireres and your flamenodle hits with 3-4k crit.
now try to kill somthing with this nodles, Stamina users can outheal with vigor/Rally - temps insta fullheal them with 1 heal -
you cant even scratch sorcs shild - dk, yes only nice fight, one of us die cause the ressources go down.

If you are lucky you can nuke someone with Shooting star/DW and two nodles

Sharee · December 2015

BuggeX wrote: »

Why are you still saying that the removal of stam regen broke the DK?
It doesnt, i Play magicka DK wiht duo s/b with 17k Stamina, and can block Long enought.
Even with x5 LA i can block long enought to kill my target.

1v1, sure. But add another attacker and i simply cannot hold block long enough to kill one of them. I will either continue blocking, run out of stamina, get CC-ed and die, or I will stop blocking and start eating 5-6K surprise attacks every second that I have no way to heal through(5-6k because i am in heavy armor, add more if light).

NB can manage multiple attackers with cloak, sorc by bolting, templar by outhealing the damage. A DK has no escape and no OP heals. He needs to be able to tank the damage, and without blocking, he just can't.

Zheg · December 2015

Sharee wrote: »

BuggeX wrote: »

Why are you still saying that the removal of stam regen broke the DK?
It doesnt, i Play magicka DK wiht duo s/b with 17k Stamina, and can block Long enought.
Even with x5 LA i can block long enought to kill my target.

1v1, sure. But add another attacker and i simply cannot hold block long enough to kill one of them. I will either continue blocking, run out of stamina, get CC-ed and die, or I will stop blocking and start eating 5-6K surprise attacks every second that I have no way to heal through(5-6k because i am in heavy armor, add more if light).

NB can manage multiple attackers with cloak, sorc by bolting, templar by outhealing the damage. A DK has no escape and no OP heals. He needs to be able to tank the damage, and without blocking, he just can't.

Uhhh, sorry, but a templar is not outhealing two NBs spamming surprise attack either. You can stand in your circles and last a few seconds longer, but a magicka templar is not going to just stand there, cast BoL, and be ok. They'd have trouble in that scenario too.

BuggeX · December 2015

Sharee wrote: »

BuggeX wrote: »

Why are you still saying that the removal of stam regen broke the DK?
It doesnt, i Play magicka DK wiht duo s/b with 17k Stamina, and can block Long enought.
Even with x5 LA i can block long enought to kill my target.

1v1, sure. But add another attacker and i simply cannot hold block long enough to kill one of them. I will either continue blocking, run out of stamina, get CC-ed and die, or I will stop blocking and start eating 5-6K surprise attacks every second that I have no way to heal through(5-6k because i am in heavy armor, add more if light).

NB can manage multiple attackers with cloak, sorc by bolting, templar by outhealing the damage. A DK has no escape and no OP heals. He needs to be able to tank the damage, and without blocking, he just can't.

thats a L2p issues,
Dk has so much CC, if you cant use it, then you die.

if two good Sorcs/NB/Temps attack you, you will die, no matter wath class you Play and if you dont run away like a chick

Sharee · December 2015

BuggeX wrote: »

Sharee wrote: »

BuggeX wrote: »

Why are you still saying that the removal of stam regen broke the DK?
It doesnt, i Play magicka DK wiht duo s/b with 17k Stamina, and can block Long enought.
Even with x5 LA i can block long enought to kill my target.

1v1, sure. But add another attacker and i simply cannot hold block long enough to kill one of them. I will either continue blocking, run out of stamina, get CC-ed and die, or I will stop blocking and start eating 5-6K surprise attacks every second that I have no way to heal through(5-6k because i am in heavy armor, add more if light).

NB can manage multiple attackers with cloak, sorc by bolting, templar by outhealing the damage. A DK has no escape and no OP heals. He needs to be able to tank the damage, and without blocking, he just can't.

thats a L2p issues,
Dk has so much CC, if you cant use it, then you die.

And other classes don't have much CC? Please.
Of course i can use CC. And my opponents can use a CC break. The we are back to square one.

BuggeX wrote: »

if two good Sorcs/NB/Temps attack you, you will die, no matter wath class you Play and if you dont run away like a chick

With a NB, i have options when facing multiple attackers. Cloak allows for pressure relief, disengagement, and resuming the attack a few seconds later or whenever advantageous. Sorc bolt uses a different mechanic but basically allows you to do the same. Weave in and out of range/sight, not allowing the enemy to focus a steady stream of damage on you.

DK on the other hand has to stand there and take it on the face. Thus he needs the tools to be able to do just that. And currently, he does not have them.

BuggeX · December 2015

Sharee wrote: »

BuggeX wrote: »

Sharee wrote: »

BuggeX wrote: »

Why are you still saying that the removal of stam regen broke the DK?
It doesnt, i Play magicka DK wiht duo s/b with 17k Stamina, and can block Long enought.
Even with x5 LA i can block long enought to kill my target.

1v1, sure. But add another attacker and i simply cannot hold block long enough to kill one of them. I will either continue blocking, run out of stamina, get CC-ed and die, or I will stop blocking and start eating 5-6K surprise attacks every second that I have no way to heal through(5-6k because i am in heavy armor, add more if light).

NB can manage multiple attackers with cloak, sorc by bolting, templar by outhealing the damage. A DK has no escape and no OP heals. He needs to be able to tank the damage, and without blocking, he just can't.

thats a L2p issues,
Dk has so much CC, if you cant use it, then you die.

And other classes don't have much CC? Please.
Of course i can use CC. And my opponents can use a CC break. The we are back to square one.

i dont speak about hard CC,

but on the other Hand, if a sorc or NB will face 2 good Player, they will not be able to use streak or Cloak,
Sorc will get *** by Gapcloser or the epic chains (i start to like them)
NB will end in aoes or one of the Player use a dpot, if he is faceing one Nb pircing marke will take care of them.