Re-balance Healing AP gain

MaxwellC · December 2015

I made this post particular because the current "emperor" on haderus Xbox One NA wanted to gloat and act all mighty because he was crowned emperor.

Story: He told me I should listen to him because he was emperor and as I had prior knowledge of what his score was on the leader board, 1.57m (note this campaign started late Tuesday or Wednesday) I asked him how he obtained it. The response was "killing players and gaining AP buff" mine was "you sure that resto staff and mutagen weren't the case?" He then went on to switch away from his resto staff and pretended to act like I didn't know what I was talking about.
Little side note: He is truly awful as he couldn't take on 3 players as an emperor and ended up cloaking away.

The actual point of this thread. The issue is you receive an overly "Generous" amount of AP from healing players and with the smart healing system it just gets easier to reach rank 1 in-comparison to those who fight huge battles while surviving each one and the solo players that practically appear at every conflict to compete for rank 1. I'm not sure if @ZOS_BrianWheeler has made a revision for this but it's something I truly want, I'm tired of seeing mutagen/healing emperors who gained it just by sitting in a group spamming heals because they gain a massive amount in-comparison to one who just kills in a group.

The reduction should just be 50% less AP or somewhere that's deemed more "fair"; I came up with 50% due to me using vigor to heal myself and players in the surrounding area getting healed off of it generate me 200+AP per player. You get around at the most 1k for killing one foe (if you did the most and only damage) while others can sit back and block cast heals for twice if not 3 times the amount you could generate in the time you killed that player.

Now don't get me wrong healing is important here but the AP you receive for just healing a player shouldn't be 400AP+.

Feel free to tell me why this doesn't make sense or any particular reason you would agree or disagree with me but I'm tired of players who gloat about their score while you see them running around going resto staff crazy only to get 4 shotted when fighting a 1 on 1.

zyk · December 2015

It takes more than spamming heals to get emp. It also takes takes wall repair kits!

From my POV on the PC side of things, this doesn't seem to be a huge issue in regards to emp. The two main factors on competitive servers are usually playtime and running with a strong group.

I'm okay with healing being highly rewarding. It's essential for solo/small group healers who help everyone in big fights such as keep defenses. Dedicated healers deserve a good AP income too.

MaxwellC · December 2015

That's true healers do need a decent AP income but as I've stated that AP Income is clearly overly generous in-comparison to killing an opponent. If you're in a group and heal players along side using rapid regen or mutagen the moment they take damage and those heal ticks come in that's AP you get immediately; factor in solo players/other grouped players and you get even more as they're not apart of your group.

You can watch a video to see how generous the AP gain for just initiating heals are, frankly it's absurd in my opinion. Also repairing walls generate 29 AP and around 37 or so with the AP buff; speaking of AP buff you do 20% on top of all the heals you keep using and that's where it gets you.

I'm a solo player and when I compete for emperor you will definitely know because I'll be ranked top 10 for sure (not trying to sound arrogant here but it's just the way I strive to obtain it). When I'm solo I breath and live in the conflict thus getting me a lot of AP (If I can stay alive long enough).

IxSTALKERxI · December 2015

It only gives good AP gain when there aren't many other players healing on your faction. You also need your faction to consistently be winning large scale fights. Otherwise contributing to killing players generates more AP. In the past when I've pushed the leaderboard I've done both though. I'll have a magicka 1vX build with rapid regen on my off bar and switch between killing and healing depending on what is yielding the highest at that moment to get the most AP. Group PvP can get more AP though atm, like 80k/hr on a really good day which is double what you'd typically see solo. In the next update groups of 5 and less will be getting double the AP though so solo players will be getting 80k AP/hr. Gonna see good solo players well above most group players on the leaderboard. Only the best guilds on the faction will be able to keep ahead.

Edit: I went a bit off topic. Basically the way I see your situation is, adapt your playstyle to suit the mechanics. If you are a better player then him, then put more rapid regens on more people then he does, and do 1vX in between. Earning AP at a competitive rate is like a whole new game in itself.

MaxwellC · December 2015

Being higher up on the leaderboard doesn't mean a thing as play time and method comes into play. If everything were streamlined where you were forced to do the same method as player A then player B would be bored and annoyed.

I prefer solo play (even though it's bad due to how PvP requires you to Zerg or run). Healing needs to be a little above the AP you receive from kills not a wide margin as it currently stands.

CatchMeTrolling · December 2015

It's the fact mutagen is cheap not healing, sometimes you actually get no ap at all for healing probably to stop boosting. Kills will always get you more ap but a combination of both will give you the best ap.

Kelces · December 2015

You won't get anywhere, just by spamming heals alone. Sure, there are people (as always), who take the quick path and obsess over the goal. For you to gain AP as a pure healer, there have to be enemies killed by those you heal. So a healer depends on his allies staying alive. Allies dead - no AP, because also dead / Allies alive - job done, AP fairly earned.

Now don't get me wrong healing is important here but the AP you receive for just healing a player shouldn't be 400AP+

I wish, that were the case, much less in reality...

An emperor is just the one on top of the list, that's all and doesn't mean much, few really care about that part. If it happens to be a pure healer, don't expect a great fight like you see of a good DD or tank. Just try it out yourself, make a healer and throw him/her into a 1 vs. 2+, perhaps then you'll reconsider your view about the way they are supposed to be able to fight.

I agree however to your stance when it comes to arrogant players, but that can be found everywhere. This is something we can manage community-wise.

BTW: How often is it, that a healer even gets to be emperor? Not that often as everyone else, as I recall. Probably because of the benefits, that "vigor" provides...

Xjcon · December 2015

Lol, you want to take away the AP heals gives? Why? Cause its more effective then your style of play? GTFO. I play magicka DK and yes get killing blows but I'm not afraid to throw some Rapid Regen out to collect a smidgen of AP. If the current Wrecking Blow build isn't giving enough AP then try something else.

Pfft trying to ruin AP grind for countless people....GG sir....

BRogueNZ · December 2015

edit. re-read thread and came to the conclusion that I don't really have an intelligent opinion to offer other than that the spam spam spam spam is real, I want to ring rapid regenerations neck.

MaxwellC · December 2015

@Xjcon I see you simply just skimmed through the thread and made a clueless remark stating that wrecking blow gives more AP as that's a skill used to kill players and often you may or may not land said skill. I didn't say anything about getting rid of the AP healers get merely a reduction to dissuade the current PvP meta of healing for top score rather than doing both (healing/killing). I grind my AP by slaughtering people if you wanna see me grind you're welcome to come to haderus XB1 NA server, I'll get the elder scroll and sit in a resource tower with a bunch of random groups (as a solo player) and generate a lot of AP quick thanks to my AP buff and kills.

@CatchMeTrolling you're right it may or may not give AP depending on the situation but healing in general even if a little health is gone generates AP (which isn't bad). Fight a huge battle spamming nothing but heals and you'd definitely be on top. I truly do wish players did both but as we both play on the same campaign trolling I'm sure you know the AD character named "ghosttraingirl" or something like that. She runs in a group and does nothing (I mean nothing I've fought her before) but spam heals and she was consistently ranked top 10 without a doubt.

@Kelces I actually did throw up a resto staff to see if it was all amazing and behold it truly was. I got into one massive battle and usually since killing a few players would generate me 200-600 AP due to me not doing the most damage instead I was receiving consistently 100-400AP every time I spammed healing springs. I should note I was in my stam DK gear not even wearing magicka and was able to just sit there getting all that AP.

Kelces · December 2015

@Kelces I actually did throw up a resto staff to see if it was all amazing and behold it truly was. I got into one massive battle and usually since killing a few players would generate me 200-600 AP due to me not doing the most damage instead I was receiving consistently 100-400AP every time I spammed healing springs. I should note I was in my stam DK gear not even wearing magicka and was able to just sit there getting all that AP.

No offense, but that isn't actually being a healer. That's just he same as a DD/tank using vigor. What I meant was actually having few (if any) real ability to defend/attack, other than healing abilities. Just to see, how hard they do by themselves in proving their worthiness for being emperor. This can't be compared to a tank, who happens to walk around with a healing staff.

Concerning AP-gain: Maybe I should look at it again (wasn't online with my healer for some time)...

MaxwellC · December 2015

@Kelces As I stated before the emperor was doing just that as a magicka NB, one bar dual wield while the other bar resto staff with a few healing abilities on it. Being a "Healer" is just as it's worded you heal your allies preventing death using various abilities to aid yourself in doing so. The resto staff is apart of healing and you are defending/attacking as one bar is for damage while the other for healing so I can't follow what you're saying about attacking/defending.

If you're talking about a templar DPS/healer they're plenty out there that do just that, heck a prime example would be golden who wasn't in the campaign and started 3 days late then amassed over 2million AP before the campaign ended. I did ask him what he did and instead of telling me he showed me (breath of life for days lol). AP gain as a DPS is only good if you're doing the most DPS in-comparison to the large majority you compete against for rank 1 while healing isn't the same thanks to smart healing.

Xjcon · December 2015

Are you just salty cause healing people is an effective method of gaining AP? You see ranged players casting it a lot and assume they get loads of AP, but they don't gain if people don't die. Throwing caltrops will net you AP from every person that dies just as fast as healing people that get killing blows.

Forestd16b14_ESO · December 2015

Well hopefully all this will change in the Thieves guild update with the new AP gain system. Or maybe it will get worst cause a healer doesn't have to be in group and they'll get more AP who knows.

Kelces · December 2015

As I stated before the emperor was doing just that as a magicka NB, one bar dual wield while the other bar resto staff with a few healing abilities on it.

So, where is your problem then? It's a healer, fine. Still better than any stamina class spamming vigor. They get the same AP, even if they heal for only 1 point.

Being a "Healer" is just as it's worded you heal your allies preventing death using various abilities to aid yourself in doing so. The resto staff is apart of healing and you are defending/attacking as one bar is for damage while the other for healing so I can't follow what you're saying about attacking/defending.

Well, imagine using ALL of your magicka for healing - NONE for attacks. That is what I am saying - a pure healer. Do you want to deny people, who like to play that way, to earn their reward? Try exactly that, not just picking up a restoration staff with stamina spec. To put it bluntly: That's even worse, than the NB you described.

BTW: I tested something today and the 3 digit numbers you were describing could only come from being in a group, so that's a completely different situation. All by yourself, the points may vary between 1 and 100 on average, everything beyond that is the exception (high ranking PvP characters or something like that). I get the feeling, you exaggerate this, just to make your argument valid. Dishonesty doesn't lead anywhere.

If you're talking about a templar DPS/healer they're plenty out there that do just that, heck a prime example would be golden who wasn't in the campaign and started 3 days late then amassed over 2million AP before the campaign ended. I did ask him what he did and instead of telling me he showed me (breath of life for days lol).

Yes, yes, I could do that certainly. If I always want to, is another question and has to be thought trough.

AP gain as a DPS is only good if you're doing the most DPS in-comparison to the large majority you compete against for rank 1 while healing isn't the same thanks to smart healing.

Sure, tested that aswell, I agree. That's just not a healer's business.

I guess, the best decision would be to remove any healing abilities (that heal others) for stamina classes, thus making it more possible for healers to be appreciated. What about that?

eliisra · December 2015

This issue isn't(or shouldn't be) about healing. It's about players leeching AP by tagging kills with HoT's or DoT's, without doing the work or taking risks themselves.

But everyone wants a big Breath of Life or Healing Ward, when they're a sliver away from being dread. Amount of "thank you" i've gotten from random players, after saving them with heals, is endless. So dont trash talk healers or in any way insinuate they're not deserving their AP lol.

This is about all the guys "overhealing" standing in the back by placing HoT's on full health targets. Of course combined with placing ranged AoE on all enemy players, that also makes 0 difference, to make sure every dead player grants them AP.

But this behaviour wont go away by nerfing heal AP. All you do is screw over real healers in PvP. Leechers still stand in the back and leech, still tag and ks all your kills without taking a single hit themselves.

I think upcoming AP changes might reduce this behaviour though. At least if implemented they way I think or hope. AP leechers needs a zerg for their playstyle to work. But than what happens when zerg AP becomes pitiful? Than leechers will be forced to l2p. I mean you cant really stand in the back and place random DoT's and HoT's like some idiot in small/mid scale PvP, than you're fried, it's fight or die.

MaxwellC · December 2015

@Kelces if you're on console I'm willing to prove to you my AP gain if not I'll make a few videos when I get something off work.
Vigor for sure nets me big AP gain (Solo) so does healing springs so accusations should die there when I bring my proof along.

MaxwellC · December 2015

@eliisra Hmm I'd say that's exactly what my point was. I talked about an MNB being emperor due to tagging his HoTs but the main issues for me is when a person like that is crowned emperor and isn't "good" in my standards which sounds completely arrogant but not trying for that.

I've plaid with other players who did the same and I did not I mean Did not have an issues with him as he was extremely fantastic as emperor.

I fought massive battles along side him as a solo player n he would heal me as a magicka Templar mitigating all the damage I'm receiving. I fought major battles with him commanding and I for once thought to lend someone my ear and believe it or not we fought off 3 zergs (over 30 players) trying to dethrone him.

Let's just say it was the best time ever experienced in Cyrodiil!