LoL is about as much as I will say. Farming Helmets and shoulders is about as excitng as banging your head against awall. Meanwhile PVP needs some decent sets. The current rewards are totally useless and the AP is essentially pointless.
Personally have no problem with using AP to purchase sets as opposed to dungeon grinding. Both are esentially the same method.

Then here is the solution:

Take every PVP skill in the Alliance War skill lines and doable the in PVE World and Instances.

Take every PVE skill you can only earn including passive a (namely undaunted) and disable them in Cyrodil.

To be perfectly honest this fixes a lot issues ranging from Camo-hunter to stamina builds using vigor in Malesteom.

It also exposes balance issues that are band aided by using these skills.

But more to the point; if someone has a specific point, reason, or explanation I'm always open to new ideas but when the discussion degenerates to I had to do 100 pledges or I had to do PVP for 2000 hours to earn caltrops so everyone else should have to I'm out.

The I had to suffer you have to suffer mythos is flawed thinking on several levels namely this and you touched on it.

If the RNG grind sucked for you it is currently sucking for someone else, if you know it sucked and people in it knows it sucks and the developers know it sucks well then it should be changed.

For the very simple reason, for every player like you who suffered through the suck "X" number of players move on. That number of players is revenue lost, revenue lost me as less content less fixes less staff less budget.

Does that mean things should be given away, no but it does mean it needs to change.

Alliance War skill lines need to change IMO, undaunted skill lines need to change IMO, RNG needs to change IMO.

Sorry you don't like the change its not like the average filthy casual is going to have either gold or AP to buy anything from the vendor especially on console

So to the people like you who have dedicated hours of your life to pursuit of digital monster helmets your holy grail will most likely be very safe

I just imagine how much smoother Cyrodiil would run with all the PVE elements removed. Then I think about how much easier the game would be to balance if PVE and PVP were completely separate, and I wonder why ZOS forces the two to cohabitate.

dday3six wrote: »

I just imagine how much smoother Cyrodiil would run with all the PVE elements removed. Then I think about how much easier the game would be to balance if PVE and PVP were completely separate, and I wonder why ZOS forces the two to cohabitate.

Why would Cyrodiil run smoother without any PvE? If a campaign is pop locked, it's pop locked regardless of what players are doing. I honestly don't follow your argument.

As for balancing, there is already a "battle spirit" which adapts certain aspects of the game for PvP. Why not work on it rather than make The Elder Scrolls Online: PvE and PvP Divided?

This is a RICH game with multiple objectives, attainable through different paths. Shortcuts such as the monster set vendors won't solve the real underlying issue (RNG on top of RNG), but they WILL increase the gap between PvE and PvP. The game as a while will be worse for it.

daemonios wrote: »

dday3six wrote: »

I just imagine how much smoother Cyrodiil would run with all the PVE elements removed. Then I think about how much easier the game would be to balance if PVE and PVP were completely separate, and I wonder why ZOS forces the two to cohabitate.

Why would Cyrodiil run smoother without any PvE? If a campaign is pop locked, it's pop locked regardless of what players are doing. I honestly don't follow your argument.

As for balancing, there is already a "battle spirit" which adapts certain aspects of the game for PvP. Why not work on it rather than make The Elder Scrolls Online: PvE and PvP Divided?

Even in pop locked campaigns do you think players run quests, anchors, and dungeons often?

Most of the PVE elements exist in a space where the majority of players are there for a different purpose. The game has to process those PVE areas whether they're used or not however. So if they were removed and Cryodiil were to be downsized a bit, the game would have less to process, thus run more smoothly.

Battle Spirit is very limited because it alters everything. If a single skill is too powerful for PVP, but fine in PVE or vica versa, there is no way to address that with Battle Spirit. Nerfing acceptable player/class potential on that sort of mirco-level for one game mode to balance another just breeds resentment. ZOS could more finely tune either game mode if skills could function independantly in PVE and PVP. That way any changes to a skill didn't have worry about the ripple effects spanning both game modes.

I don't see this as bypassing anything, AP was meant to be a PvP currency used to gear up, much like honor points in WoW. You still have to do dungeons to level your undaunted skills but will allow players to gear up by playing the content they enjoy, just like PvE players do.

daemonios wrote: »

acw37162 wrote: »

Then here is the solution:

Take every PVP skill in the Alliance War skill lines and doable the in PVE World and Instances.

Take every PVE skill you can only earn including passive a (namely undaunted) and disable them in Cyrodil.

To be perfectly honest this fixes a lot issues ranging from Camo-hunter to stamina builds using vigor in Malesteom.

It also exposes balance issues that are band aided by using these skills.

But more to the point; if someone has a specific point, reason, or explanation I'm always open to new ideas but when the discussion degenerates to I had to do 100 pledges or I had to do PVP for 2000 hours to earn caltrops so everyone else should have to I'm out.

The I had to suffer you have to suffer mythos is flawed thinking on several levels namely this and you touched on it.

If the RNG grind sucked for you it is currently sucking for someone else, if you know it sucked and people in it knows it sucks and the developers know it sucks well then it should be changed.

For the very simple reason, for every player like you who suffered through the suck "X" number of players move on. That number of players is revenue lost, revenue lost me as less content less fixes less staff less budget.

Does that mean things should be given away, no but it does mean it needs to change.

Alliance War skill lines need to change IMO, undaunted skill lines need to change IMO, RNG needs to change IMO.

Sorry you don't like the change its not like the average filthy casual is going to have either gold or AP to buy anything from the vendor especially on console

So to the people like you who have dedicated hours of your life to pursuit of digital monster helmets your holy grail will most likely be very safe

You misunderstand me. My position doesn't come from a "I had to suffer so you should too" mentality. It comes from seeing the game torn apart and patchworked back together for the sake of a few vocal players. I have no doubt that casuals have trouble getting through some of the (ever increasing) grinds in the game. But maybe the answer is to address the grind, not make a completely unrelated way to bypass it. In any case, saying "I don't like PvE/PvP so I need a way to get their stuff" isn't a valid argument IMHO.

Like I said originally, this game has PvP elements and PvE elements. It loses some of its appeal when it's all tossed into one giant cauldron. For *me* at least, the game is more appealing when there are things for which you need to do something that may not be your favourite thing, but that's the way to get those things. My fear is that the trend will continue, and there will be two completely separate games, one for PvPers and one for PvEers, instead of one big, complex, multifaceted game. It becomes poorer.

I think I understand you quite clearly.

On at least one point we both agree and that is some aspects of the "grindy" part of this game need to change.

I don't have any input on what if any changes are going to come, I have a psersonal opinion I also don't think other people are wrong for having a different opinion.

I don't understand the level of animosity and venom people throw around over monster helms vendors of alliance or undaunted skill lines.

If a PVP player wants a monster helms or undaunted skills they should have a way to get them outside of PVE provided those items work Ina PvP envorment.

If a PVE player wants alliance was skills they should have a way to earn them outside of PVP.

For me it's just that simple now that's a personal opinion, that several disagree with but the most compeling argument I get around her is "No, I had to earn it this way you should to" from both sides and that is just flawed thinking.

If a PVP player gets a monster helm from a vendor it affects not one PVE player.

If a PVE player gets vigor from something other then PVP if affects not one PVP player positively or negatively.

As a side note, and something I can guarantee ZOS is looking at is player retention particularly on consoles. Console gamers are generally different hen PC gamers.

Not to say console players aren't or don't but PC players are generally more likely to suffer though long grinds or beat your head against the wall difficulty.

I have general feeling ZOS is not excited about console player retention, and even though everyone hates to hear it the more players there are the better the game can be just from a financial standpoint.

Ex: you show a console player caltrops or vigor and explain it to them and how to get it.

Two weeks later after spending all their time in game in Cyrodil they still don't have the skill or are not as far along as they like they will just walk away.

Not all but some and the harder it is to get to and harder it is to get help or information the less likely they are to stay.

As a personal experience I can't stand how effin rare the new tri-stat essence runes and V15-16 potency runes are its just aggravating. As is the grind to get the eight and ninth traits for researching gear.

When it gets frustrating enough I'll just leave and while I as one person don't make a huge difference to the bottom line but I do support the game I sub, I buy vanity items, and I spend money in the crown store and I genuinely like the game. However, there are genuine frustrations I have with how things are currently allocated and how people act if you have a different opinion.

JamilaRaj wrote: »

daemonios wrote: »

What's next - purchase the achievements you don't have the time or patience to do?

Indeed, the achievements/dyes system is remarkably un-monetized. I wonder what is The Monetization Department doing if it leaves this source of revenue untapped. It must be busy designing either housing system or barber shop.

OMG.. that "barber shop"!!!! How is that not their priority 1?

Well Ok I can see what you mean, but as a PVPer, I'll just say this... PVP has a time limit on each of the campaigns that forces us to finish in an allotted time, at a high enough ranking to get anything halfway good. Just like how you PVE guys don't like having to kill people in PVP we dont like to kill NPC bosses for the chance at good gear all the while every day were in there fighting that boss, our campaigns are growing closer to ending. I've been in some PVP guilds that will kick you out for not being active enough in the home campaign. it's brutal out there. Theres always a need for the best gear, and if this merchant opens the doors up for us to get better gear without having to PVE for hours/days missing out on PVP rewards, perhaps it will also mean PVP specific skills and such will become unlockable via PVE means.

Yolokin_Swagonborn wrote: »

Here is the real difference between PvE players and PvP'ers (These are some of the best comments from the other thread on this topic before it was closed by the feels police.)

PvE'ers:

Why do you all act like grinding is something new this game invented? It gives you a REASON to run these dungeons and play the content.

Islyn wrote: »

The issue is, once you have everything in game, there is no reason to play any more until new stuff comes out.

It is not that re-running the same dungeon over and over (and over) is a blast, because it isn't. It's funny when we make it funny, joking around on TS etc - but it's not fun.

PvP'ers

@Typhoios Wrote:
This is the difference between us PvPers and you PvEers, we play to play. You play for rewards. We want our gear so that we can compete, you want your gear so that you can wait for the next gear grind.

Typhoios nailed it right there with the difference between PvP and PvE. I hope he doesn't mind me spam quoting him.


PvE'ers are all about the rewards and chasing carrots. To them PvP'ers are getting something unfair. A carrot with less chase. PvPers dont care about carrots. We care about being in lag free battle dismembering our enemies. Our enemies rage tells are our carrots. Gear is just necessary to be competitive. If PvP had standardized or exclusive gear, we would never set foot in carebear land.

We have no pride in our gear. "Ooh look at me, I DPS'ed a stupid glowing ghost for 20 minutes for the last 100 days to get this helmet. I must rock at this game"

We have only pride in our accomplishments in battle "Hey look at these 5 EP t-bagging my body after it took all 5 to kill me, that's hilarious!"

@Yolokin_Swagonborn @Typhoios

That's not exactly true, Yolo. A lot of PVEers play for the story line immersion. They also play for the achievements of "I kicked the hell out of Maelstrom Arena... I'm #5 on the leaderboads". Just like PVPers take pride in being on leaderboards. Also, you can rerun the storylines and choose different paths. You may have chosen to kill someone for betraying the Covenant with one of your toons... your other toon might let the person live. Some people like to RP with their guildies (I still don't quite grasp that concept).

But yes, you do get PVEers who burn through the storyline as fast as possible, only grind for the gear, and complain about how there's no content (because they didn't take the time to enjoy it). Then again- you have PVPers who sit up on a keep just to earn AP, guys who run around for hours repairing walls for the AP, and the infamous unskilled "shadow gankers" who hide while you fight mobs and then pop in to hit you at low health. It's usually followed by a teabag.

I consider those PVP low-health shadow gankers to be about on par with the PVE chest thieves who run up and take a chest while you're fighting NPCs on top of it.

That being said- I think the "accomplishment" that people get from PVP and PVE is being able to brag that they have Caltrops or Undaunted Level 9. That's something that you've earned. Weapons and armor are RNG-related. You could have a crappy tank, dps, or healer BARELY make it through Veteran City of Ash and walk away with a helm. (just damn lucky) You can also have a VERY SKILLED tank, dps, or healer run through VCoA dozens of times... and not get a damn thing. It's grueling enough as a dedicated PVEer to have to run a dungeon hundreds of times to HOPE to get a decent helm. I can only imagine how a dedicated PVPer feels to just want the damn helm for PVP purposes.

Zenimax should sell all armor and weapons for gold. All PVP and PVE items should cost gold and all rewards should be in the form of gold. Not AP. Not Tel Var stones (ironically, this currency forces PVEers to PVP in order to get certain gear... I still can't figure out why that hasn't been brought up). Or- they could make helms/armor/weapons an automatic drop from a dungeon. That way, you'll get the good loot and you can brag that you completed the dungeon. If you complete the dungeon- you should get the helm. Period. But.. that's not how MMOs go. It sucks. I have no solution other than the grind.

I run both PVP and PVE... and, as I always point out, the best way to enjoy the game is to do both. Hell, we paid for the content of PVE and PVP- we might as well get our money's worth!

A game I hate to bring up but one I think that had it right a long time ago was WoW. The PvP gear was best for PvP. While the PVE gear was best for PVE. If ZoS would separate the two it would cure several problems.