Why is PVP mostly just a damage contest?

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO · December 2015

Lucky28 wrote: »

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO wrote: »

People soft caps is not answer adding 100 points and getting 50 is not okay ever.

The fix is easy to me all attacks that cost stamina does Physical, Poison or disease. All magic attack deal Magic, or some elemental damage. All heals and shield should go off of Health.

How to build this for healers? Simple when they low max health allies the heal is weaker. Healers should have high recovery and the heal it self should be based on the person being healed.

It's War and health is pointless that statement should not make sense.

yeah no. they just need to re-work the battle spirit buff and make tanks viable in PvP

what you say is forcing people to put points in health for using abilities that should/did scale of magicka. that's not fixing anything just pissing people off. no, adding separate benefits to health would be the better option (like for example, investing in health also increases total armor rating by X amount and/or inceases poison resistance. things of that nature) but not fundamentally changing the way people play the game and have played for quite a while.

What's the point of more armor I have 59% armor pen plus can debuff 7k armor on top of that a little more armor wouldn't make a difference.

Heavy Armor deals less damage taking away that much armor with a CC every five seconds and no Tank can keep break free alone would kill your stamina. You wouldn't have enough spell or weapon damage to out heal my DPS or burst me to death. So tank dies.

CatchMeTrolling · December 2015

SneaK wrote: »

There are still tanks and healers out there, you just don't notice them cause they aren't killing you.

I actually notice every tank and healer before anyone. Plus healers are usually everyone's first target if they're good.

SneaK · December 2015

CatchMeTrolling wrote: »

SneaK wrote: »

There are still tanks and healers out there, you just don't notice them cause they aren't killing you.

I actually notice every tank and healer before anyone. Plus healers are usually everyone's first target if they're good.

I know, just having fun with you. But, you brought up a good point, and tis another reason people go DPS route instead of healing support, you get targeted.

CatchMeTrolling · December 2015

SneaK wrote: »

CatchMeTrolling wrote: »

SneaK wrote: »

There are still tanks and healers out there, you just don't notice them cause they aren't killing you.

I actually notice every tank and healer before anyone. Plus healers are usually everyone's first target if they're good.

I know, just having fun with you. But, you brought up a good point, and tis another reason people go DPS route instead of healing support, you get targeted.

I currently play support , this is a big reason why I have 100 points into quick recovery because people will try to focus you down lol it's also up to your alliance to protect the healers. In my opinion Templars are the leaders on the battle field, they can very well change a battle because they can give you the chance to survive odds you're not suppose to. Especially during sieges

SneaK · December 2015

CatchMeTrolling wrote: »

SneaK wrote: »

CatchMeTrolling wrote: »

SneaK wrote: »

There are still tanks and healers out there, you just don't notice them cause they aren't killing you.

I actually notice every tank and healer before anyone. Plus healers are usually everyone's first target if they're good.

I know, just having fun with you. But, you brought up a good point, and tis another reason people go DPS route instead of healing support, you get targeted.

I currently play support , this is a big reason why I have 100 points into quick recovery because people will try to focus you down lol it's also up to your alliance to protect the healers. In my opinion Templars are the leaders on the battle field, they can very well change a battle because they can give you the chance to survive odds you're not suppose to. Especially during sieges

I agree, I have a 16 Temp too. I haven't been playing in that big enough of a group lately though to really play the support role. I was dreaming up something today though, bit of a hybrid support/caster temp.. might have to log back in with him.

One thing I would say, I feel like Defensive Rune should have been a Templar ability.

CatchMeTrolling · December 2015

SneaK wrote: »

CatchMeTrolling wrote: »

SneaK wrote: »

CatchMeTrolling wrote: »

SneaK wrote: »

There are still tanks and healers out there, you just don't notice them cause they aren't killing you.

I actually notice every tank and healer before anyone. Plus healers are usually everyone's first target if they're good.

I know, just having fun with you. But, you brought up a good point, and tis another reason people go DPS route instead of healing support, you get targeted.

I currently play support , this is a big reason why I have 100 points into quick recovery because people will try to focus you down lol it's also up to your alliance to protect the healers. In my opinion Templars are the leaders on the battle field, they can very well change a battle because they can give you the chance to survive odds you're not suppose to. Especially during sieges

I agree, I have a 16 Temp too. I haven't been playing in that big enough of a group lately though to really play the support role. I was dreaming up something today though, bit of a hybrid support/caster temp.. might have to log back in with him.

One thing I would say, I feel like Defensive Rune should have been a Templar ability.

As far as group play, I'm usually by myself most of the time. Just go where the action is so it'll be beneficial to my play-style and yeah or they should just give Templars back blinding flashes too

Lucky28 · December 2015

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO wrote: »

Lucky28 wrote: »

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO wrote: »

People soft caps is not answer adding 100 points and getting 50 is not okay ever.

The fix is easy to me all attacks that cost stamina does Physical, Poison or disease. All magic attack deal Magic, or some elemental damage. All heals and shield should go off of Health.

How to build this for healers? Simple when they low max health allies the heal is weaker. Healers should have high recovery and the heal it self should be based on the person being healed.

It's War and health is pointless that statement should not make sense.

yeah no. they just need to re-work the battle spirit buff and make tanks viable in PvP

what you say is forcing people to put points in health for using abilities that should/did scale of magicka. that's not fixing anything just pissing people off. no, adding separate benefits to health would be the better option (like for example, investing in health also increases total armor rating by X amount and/or inceases poison resistance. things of that nature) but not fundamentally changing the way people play the game and have played for quite a while.

What's the point of more armor I have 59% armor pen plus can debuff 7k armor on top of that a little more armor wouldn't make a difference.

Heavy Armor deals less damage taking away that much armor with a CC every five seconds and no Tank can keep break free alone would kill your stamina. You wouldn't have enough spell or weapon damage to out heal my DPS or burst me to death. So tank dies.

i said it should have it's own benefits those where just examples off the top of my head. I personally don't really give a *** if people use health or not.

Xsorus · December 2015

Because ZoS removed softcaps causing damage to be extremely high and stupid, then instead of fixing it... Slapped a 50% reduction bandaid on everything.

If before you were built for sustain or hybrid or say a dot build...... Your damage is no longer able to kill anyone... However those that were built for insane damage can still kill people.....

It took build variety and completely kicked it in the nuts... Frankly I'm with @Alcast ... I don't think the people in charge of balancing have a damn clue what they are doing... They try and fix a simple problem half the time by completely screwing everything up... Realize they screwed it up and screw it up some more.

If I could compare it to anything I'd compare it to warhammer online and bright wizards mechanic.

Bright wizards had a mechanic in that game that increased their crit chance by 35% and their crit damage by 100%
This meant bright wizards could aoe a spot and decimate it easily.... Instead of doing the logical thing... Like maybe nerfing that mechanic mythic went out of their way to not just do that... First they added a 10 person aoe cap, when that didn't work they proceeded to nerf every aoe in the game... Which left bright wizards being the only class with actual viable aoe damage.

This game is filled with examples like this... And the current meta is one of them.

Toc de Malsvi · December 2015

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO wrote: »

Lucky28 wrote: »

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO wrote: »

People soft caps is not answer adding 100 points and getting 50 is not okay ever.

The fix is easy to me all attacks that cost stamina does Physical, Poison or disease. All magic attack deal Magic, or some elemental damage. All heals and shield should go off of Health.

How to build this for healers? Simple when they low max health allies the heal is weaker. Healers should have high recovery and the heal it self should be based on the person being healed.

It's War and health is pointless that statement should not make sense.

yeah no. they just need to re-work the battle spirit buff and make tanks viable in PvP

what you say is forcing people to put points in health for using abilities that should/did scale of magicka. that's not fixing anything just pissing people off. no, adding separate benefits to health would be the better option (like for example, investing in health also increases total armor rating by X amount and/or inceases poison resistance. things of that nature) but not fundamentally changing the way people play the game and have played for quite a while.

What's the point of more armor I have 59% armor pen plus can debuff 7k armor on top of that a little more armor wouldn't make a difference.

Heavy Armor deals less damage taking away that much armor with a CC every five seconds and no Tank can keep break free alone would kill your stamina. You wouldn't have enough spell or weapon damage to out heal my DPS or burst me to death. So tank dies.

Yes....if they do not give it bonus' that out scale your dps then its pointless, I think it kind of a given that the idea was the unique bonus' would compete to negate your dps.

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO · December 2015

@lucky28 @toc de Malsvi but that "bonus" whatever it is will only make Heavy Armor better not make health more useful.

The meta would change to Heavy Armored Mages and Stamina builds using CP to make up the sustain loss. Once again not fixing the problem and having people calling for the change they wanted to be undone.

We need to have more then two player roles with the chance of a tank

Toc de Malsvi · December 2015

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO wrote: »

@lucky28 @toc de Malsvi but that "bonus" whatever it is will only make Heavy Armor better not make health more useful.

The meta would change to Heavy Armored Mages and Stamina builds using CP to make up the sustain loss. Once again not fixing the problem and having people calling for the change they wanted to be undone.

We need to have more then two player roles with the chance of a tank

This is why I said compete to negate, not completely negate. Balance is hard to attain especially with so many variables. I do agree that a change will likely bring about a huge change that will swing in the favor of heavy armor builds. But I also think that Tank's are not dead, simply it is not possible to Tank and put out solid dps meaning a Tank can give up trying to roll on people in this world of burst or bust. I've seen a few tanks in pvp that I just could not kill, now they couldn't kill me so it resulted in a stalemate until either I got help or they did.

Xvorg · December 2015

CatchMeTrolling wrote: »

SneaK wrote: »

There are still tanks and healers out there, you just don't notice them cause they aren't killing you.

I actually notice every tank and healer before anyone. Plus healers are usually everyone's first target if they're good.

My sap blade always has tons of zergs after him....

user_2388_14480d1370632709_nor_cal_darts_club_meet_june_23rd_why_meme.png

Jade1986 · December 2015

Lucky28 wrote: »

laced wrote: »

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

Draxys wrote: »

How is being able to one shot someone balanced? No build should ever be able to one shot anything, unless your target is a naked lowbie with battle leveling off.

Same way that using a sniper rifle works in other games, you sacrifice utility and overrall survivability to be able to burst down targets who are low health or not using defensive's or armor. There are easy mechanics to nullify being burst down and mostly it has to do with paying attention to your surroundings as well as your build. If you put all your points into being bursty you should be able to be bursted down rather easy.

This is not a first person shooter, if you want to one shot people like that, then go play that kind of game, this is an mmo, with many more mechanics and one shotting should not even be possible. It is bad game design at its finest.

No it's not. you can one shot people in multiple games. Demon's souls and Dark souls to name a few and PvP is really damn good in those games. oh, and they're not first person shoots.

At any rate. i had ran a sustain build at the start of this patch carried over from 1.6 and i couldn't kill anything, so i had to switch to pure damage if i wanted to be competitive. it's the changes ZoS made on 2.1 that gave rise to this meta. as people have said, can't blame the players for it.

Did you miss the part where I said mmo?

Jade1986 · December 2015

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

laced wrote: »

This is not a first person shooter, if you want to one shot people like that, then go play that kind of game, this is an mmo, with many more mechanics and one shotting should not even be possible. It is bad game design at its finest.

Just saying something is bad doesn't make it so. Being able to burst some one down quickly has been a part of many games and not just first person shooters. World of Warcraft for one had many builds with rogues/druids that were one shots or virtually one shots during certain periods of the game and it didn't ruin pvp. It only heightened the intensity of combat for fear that there was a rogue/druid sneaking about. Running around free of concern from gankers or snipers or the like is not what pvp is about, if you want to do so play a tank. You cannot one shot a tank build, people that are getting one shot are builds that do not set themselves up for defense.

Bursting someone down quickly =/= one shotting. There is a big difference. One shotting should NOT exist in a game like this, it is bad design at its finest, no matter how you want to rationalize. It should not be possible to one shot someone with them having 0 chance to defend themselves.

QuebraRegra · December 2015

great thread with a lot of truth in terms of softcaps, CPs and the rest.

I'd like to thank this tread for reminding me that the most fun I had in PVP was running around with my NB healer with restostaff, and providing support, scouting etc. Never a top killer, but the character offered GREAT utility.

Hmm, maybe it's time to bring him out of retirement....

OdinForge · December 2015

They nerfed damage in half, this isn't a damage patch anymore. Defense is too high since 1.7, especially for groups.

Damage however is what kills your target, and people will always focus on it in some way shape or form.

ToRelax · December 2015

OdinForge wrote: »

They nerfed damage in half, this isn't a damage patch anymore. Defense is too high since 1.7, especially for groups.

Damage however is what kills your target, and people will always focus on it in some way shape or form.

People had to focus on creating burst damage since 1.6 because of basically endless resources, and the 2.1 battle spirit damage reduction makes more players focus on actual damage stats. This is not a "damage patch" in damage numbers so much as in meta, the inverse of 1.6 basically and farther from the 1.5 sustain meta than ever.

Lucky28 · December 2015

laced wrote: »

Lucky28 wrote: »

laced wrote: »

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

Draxys wrote: »

How is being able to one shot someone balanced? No build should ever be able to one shot anything, unless your target is a naked lowbie with battle leveling off.

Same way that using a sniper rifle works in other games, you sacrifice utility and overrall survivability to be able to burst down targets who are low health or not using defensive's or armor. There are easy mechanics to nullify being burst down and mostly it has to do with paying attention to your surroundings as well as your build. If you put all your points into being bursty you should be able to be bursted down rather easy.

This is not a first person shooter, if you want to one shot people like that, then go play that kind of game, this is an mmo, with many more mechanics and one shotting should not even be possible. It is bad game design at its finest.

No it's not. you can one shot people in multiple games. Demon's souls and Dark souls to name a few and PvP is really damn good in those games. oh, and they're not first person shoots.

At any rate. i had ran a sustain build at the start of this patch carried over from 1.6 and i couldn't kill anything, so i had to switch to pure damage if i wanted to be competitive. it's the changes ZoS made on 2.1 that gave rise to this meta. as people have said, can't blame the players for it.

Did you miss the part where I said mmo?

that distinction doesn't matter here.

americansteel · December 2015

eliisra wrote: »

CatchMeTrolling wrote: »

ToRelax wrote: »

I've always focused more on sustain than most players, and yet my current build looks like a crazy damage stacking thing compared to earlier versions of the game.

Also pretty sure most players calling the current burst meta balanced haven't been playing in 1.5...

Lol it's not balanced at all or close to being balanced. If it was you might actually see more unique builds rather than the usual ones the average player is running.

Remember back in the days when people used to put points into health lol?

Actually, you had to put points into all different attributes in PvP. Now it's like 62 magicka/stamina + every single enchant magicka/stamina for max dmg, max heals and max shields. The end.

i remember that

Wreuntzylla · December 2015

The damage level in the current meta is right back to where it was, 50% damage reduction or not. Top primary stats of 30k have become over 40k. Top weapon damage has moved from 3500 to 5k. They may have nerfed overall damage but they made up for it with gear and CP. I land 14k crits on a regular basis.

The only difference is that defense mechanics have changed. I can no longer 1vX like before. Ttk is as low now as it has ever been. However, I used to have dodge roll fest fights for 20-45 minutes with good players, that is gone gone gone.

ToRelax · December 2015

Wreuntzylla wrote: »

The damage level in the current meta is right back to where it was, 50% damage reduction or not. Top primary stats of 30k have become over 40k. Top weapon damage has moved from 3500 to 5k. They may have nerfed overall damage but they made up for it with gear and CP. I land 14k crits on a regular basis.

The only difference is that defense mechanics have changed. I can no longer 1vX like before. Ttk is as low now as it has ever been. However, I used to have dodge roll fest fights for 20-45 minutes with good players, that is gone gone gone.

Damage in 1.6 was way higher than it is now, with a sustain build even, wich arguably had the relatively largest increase in damage stats.

Lucky28 · December 2015

Wreuntzylla wrote: »

The damage level in the current meta is right back to where it was, 50% damage reduction or not. Top primary stats of 30k have become over 40k. Top weapon damage has moved from 3500 to 5k. They may have nerfed overall damage but they made up for it with gear and CP. I land 14k crits on a regular basis.

The only difference is that defense mechanics have changed. I can no longer 1vX like before. Ttk is as low now as it has ever been. However, I used to have dodge roll fest fights for 20-45 minutes with good players, that is gone gone gone.

No it's not. The problem with this patch is it's made certain abilities worthless that's why everyone runs the same build spamming the same skills over and over and over again. there is no variety in this patch.

KillKapps · December 2015

Waffennacht wrote: »

As I play I've noted several different kinds of builds.

Now as for effectiveness usually its one kind of build per class, but not necessarily all dps.

DKs for example, are far different from my sorc, the more effective builds are inherently tankier than others.

Now if you are asking for diversity within each class, well that does seem to be lacking

DK's cant do anything another class can right now. Useless class at the moment. Zenni needs to learn to balance this game instead of burying things in the ground and making skyscrapers with something else.

Wreuntzylla · December 2015

ToRelax wrote: »

Wreuntzylla wrote: »

The damage level in the current meta is right back to where it was, 50% damage reduction or not. Top primary stats of 30k have become over 40k. Top weapon damage has moved from 3500 to 5k. They may have nerfed overall damage but they made up for it with gear and CP. I land 14k crits on a regular basis.

The only difference is that defense mechanics have changed. I can no longer 1vX like before. Ttk is as low now as it has ever been. However, I used to have dodge roll fest fights for 20-45 minutes with good players, that is gone gone gone.

Damage in 1.6 was way higher than it is now, with a sustain build even, wich arguably had the relatively largest increase in damage stats.

So what was hitting for way higher than 14k damage in 1.6?

leepalmer95 · December 2015

Wreuntzylla wrote: »

ToRelax wrote: »

Wreuntzylla wrote: »

The damage level in the current meta is right back to where it was, 50% damage reduction or not. Top primary stats of 30k have become over 40k. Top weapon damage has moved from 3500 to 5k. They may have nerfed overall damage but they made up for it with gear and CP. I land 14k crits on a regular basis.

The only difference is that defense mechanics have changed. I can no longer 1vX like before. Ttk is as low now as it has ever been. However, I used to have dodge roll fest fights for 20-45 minutes with good players, that is gone gone gone.

Damage in 1.6 was way higher than it is now, with a sustain build even, wich arguably had the relatively largest increase in damage stats.

So what was hitting for way higher than 14k damage in 1.6?

Even been 20k sniped for stealth?

Wollust · December 2015

Wreuntzylla wrote: »

ToRelax wrote: »

Wreuntzylla wrote: »

The damage level in the current meta is right back to where it was, 50% damage reduction or not. Top primary stats of 30k have become over 40k. Top weapon damage has moved from 3500 to 5k. They may have nerfed overall damage but they made up for it with gear and CP. I land 14k crits on a regular basis.

The only difference is that defense mechanics have changed. I can no longer 1vX like before. Ttk is as low now as it has ever been. However, I used to have dodge roll fest fights for 20-45 minutes with good players, that is gone gone gone.

Damage in 1.6 was way higher than it is now, with a sustain build even, wich arguably had the relatively largest increase in damage stats.

So what was hitting for way higher than 14k damage in 1.6?

My crystal frag on my sustain sorc build. Highest I ever saw was 19k.
My surprise attack on my sustain stamina nightblade. 14k surprise attack wasn't something special, requiring to stack everything into weapondamage and stamina.
Proxy on more or less any magicka build.
Hell, I even saw flame leash crit occasionally for 12k in 1.6.

Damage was for sure way higher in 1.6. The massive battle reduction from the battle spirit was kinda compensated with the increased stacking of mainpool and weapon/spelldamage, but it's nowhere near 1.6.

SupremeTravie · December 2015

Because we are trying to kill each other ?

melodeath · December 2015

because theres no reason to go for sustain builds anymore.

once you reached a certain number of weapon/spell damage than all it requires is stealth>heavy attack and most of the time your target is olready dead.. and when you take things like siphoning strikes, overload and the dk passive battle roar(?) into account than all you have to do is just slice through everything and still get your resources back.. so unless you like a challenge by doing 1vX (wich is not realistic against good players) than theres just no point in going for that extra regen.

kaithuzar · December 2015

I miss the damage & sustain of last patch. Maybe they will do some much needed fixes if they don't plan to bring it back.
(Not in any particular order):
1) sorc shields need to be crit on
2) camo hunter et al.. double hitting instantly
3) axe bleed
4) reverb bash
5) magic dk's need a little love not sure how though
6) fix whatever is going on with recovery b/c in pts I had almost 4k magic recovery, using the same build I now have 2.4k
7) health is obtained other ways, healthy willpower, 3 stat prismatic enchants, increasing heavy armor passives so you are less affected by "reduce armor" or something b/c someone stacking armor pen can go through it even though it's heavy!
9) roll dodging wasn't that bad & even if it was only being able to do 1 roll dodge instead of 2 or 3 sucks

SneaK · January 2016

Another reason...

Cost to craft V16 gear. This has killed theory crafting in this game. Hardly anyone has the money to make multiple sets so obviously they choose to make the set that will give them the most damage. Too expensive to "try" out sustain builds.