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On the gear grind, its' causes and consequenses.
For the purposes of this thread I'll only be talking about vet dungeons, pledges and monster item sets, however the same underlying principals can apply to other gear progression content.
I'll start by saying that I find vet dungeons fun. Un-ironically fun. They're (in my opinion) some of the best individual content pieces in any game, ever (even if some people can face roll them with 25k dps builds). A lot of people also find these dungeons really quite enjoyable, however there's not much demand to do them unless you're grinding for the monster helm sets, and then doing so feels like a chore.
So Zenimax is in an awful position here. If they leave it as is, dungeons are just going to feel like chores, if they increase the accessibility of monster helm sets then people will abandon pledges and VR dungeons for more 'efficient' grinds taking progression over fun.
As such zenimax is left with a few choices - 1:leave things as is and have a lot of progression minded folks learning to hate otherwise great content. 2:Increase accessibility and have people no play great content. 3: Increase accessibility to the drops and otherwise incentivise players to do the content.
Obviously option 3 is the only real choice, but it needs to be discussed. For obvious reasons they can't just make dungeons give silly amounts of xp and gold, nor can they make them a source of items found in other exclusive areas so they don't obsolete other content.
I have a twofold solution to the issue - the first being with accessibility to the drops, though I don't really need to make a suggestion here as there are a myriad ways to increase accessibility to the -specific- helm or shoulder you want out of the 240 possible combinations, but I will anyway: The ability to reforge an item with the appropriate number of materials (130 for a v16 helm), the trait item and 10 laurels to your desired weight and trait (resetting the item to WHITE quality while doing so for the sake of comparable cost to the AVA accessible items coming next major patch)
The second part is the part that's a more sticky issue. Incentivising people to run veteran dungeons and other currently non-progressive content. The trick here being to drag people away from lolgrinds without dragging them away from other 'real-content'. I've been thinking on this matter for a few days now and what triggered me into writing this thread was this one simple idea. After one has run a pledge, for the rest of the day being able to pick up infinitely repeatable radiant quests as simple as 'do a dungeon' allowing you to either run with other pledge groups or form a group of your own for a specific helm run and get quest completion xp and gold.
I figure the rewards for the repeatable quest would have to be balanced according to which dungeon you choose to do and also such that the xp and gold AREN'T the main incentive, just a bonus that prevents you from feeling you're falling behind the CP grind or missing out on too much gold elsewhere. What I THINK should be the main incentive in this system that will draw people into dungeons is that while on the quest you have a % chance to get a rewards for the worthy mail (bearing in mind that they have announced in the last ESO live that they will be scaling certain RFTW sets to vr16 next major patch) on killing the final boss. Now, in my understanding a semi decent pvper gets a RFTW mail every 15-20 minutes (I get one around every 40 minutes and I suck at pvp) so I feel like a good drop rate for this would be 15% for a bronze key run, 35% for a silver key run and a 50% chance on a gold key run. This way a really quick (15 minute gold key) would still be slower than a good PVPER thus not drawing people from PVP but provide access to people who only do PVE to those sets. Another point is, people will still do other PVE content as it still gives unique rewards.
Discuss.
I'll start by saying that I find vet dungeons fun. Un-ironically fun. They're (in my opinion) some of the best individual content pieces in any game, ever (even if some people can face roll them with 25k dps builds). A lot of people also find these dungeons really quite enjoyable, however there's not much demand to do them unless you're grinding for the monster helm sets, and then doing so feels like a chore.
So Zenimax is in an awful position here. If they leave it as is, dungeons are just going to feel like chores, if they increase the accessibility of monster helm sets then people will abandon pledges and VR dungeons for more 'efficient' grinds taking progression over fun.
As such zenimax is left with a few choices - 1:leave things as is and have a lot of progression minded folks learning to hate otherwise great content. 2:Increase accessibility and have people no play great content. 3: Increase accessibility to the drops and otherwise incentivise players to do the content.
Obviously option 3 is the only real choice, but it needs to be discussed. For obvious reasons they can't just make dungeons give silly amounts of xp and gold, nor can they make them a source of items found in other exclusive areas so they don't obsolete other content.
I have a twofold solution to the issue - the first being with accessibility to the drops, though I don't really need to make a suggestion here as there are a myriad ways to increase accessibility to the -specific- helm or shoulder you want out of the 240 possible combinations, but I will anyway: The ability to reforge an item with the appropriate number of materials (130 for a v16 helm), the trait item and 10 laurels to your desired weight and trait (resetting the item to WHITE quality while doing so for the sake of comparable cost to the AVA accessible items coming next major patch)
The second part is the part that's a more sticky issue. Incentivising people to run veteran dungeons and other currently non-progressive content. The trick here being to drag people away from lolgrinds without dragging them away from other 'real-content'. I've been thinking on this matter for a few days now and what triggered me into writing this thread was this one simple idea. After one has run a pledge, for the rest of the day being able to pick up infinitely repeatable radiant quests as simple as 'do a dungeon' allowing you to either run with other pledge groups or form a group of your own for a specific helm run and get quest completion xp and gold.
I figure the rewards for the repeatable quest would have to be balanced according to which dungeon you choose to do and also such that the xp and gold AREN'T the main incentive, just a bonus that prevents you from feeling you're falling behind the CP grind or missing out on too much gold elsewhere. What I THINK should be the main incentive in this system that will draw people into dungeons is that while on the quest you have a % chance to get a rewards for the worthy mail (bearing in mind that they have announced in the last ESO live that they will be scaling certain RFTW sets to vr16 next major patch) on killing the final boss. Now, in my understanding a semi decent pvper gets a RFTW mail every 15-20 minutes (I get one around every 40 minutes and I suck at pvp) so I feel like a good drop rate for this would be 15% for a bronze key run, 35% for a silver key run and a 50% chance on a gold key run. This way a really quick (15 minute gold key) would still be slower than a good PVPER thus not drawing people from PVP but provide access to people who only do PVE to those sets. Another point is, people will still do other PVE content as it still gives unique rewards.
Discuss.
2
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Khaos_Bane✭✭✭✭✭
✭I agree with you that group dungeons are a huge issue right now. However, it's not only veteran dungeons. I have mentioned ideas similar to yours in several threads. It basically comes down to 4 man dungeon content needs to be made relevant for more than simply a couple of pledges a day and helm runs.
1. Doing four man dungeons should grant more XP.
2. 4 man dungeons should have repeatable quests, NOT JUST DAILY. Who came up with the daily idea and why?
3. There should be more configurable itemization similar to your re-forging idea. Look at Diablo 3 for some fantastic itemization ideas.
4. 4 man Dungeons should have quests with unique objectives similar to the pledges but more variety and NOT JUST DAILY.
Please ZoS, many of us like doing the 4 man content but there simply isn't enough incentive to make it worthwhile for others after pledges are done.
Make it easy for people to WANT to play the game.1 -
Sausage✭✭✭✭✭
✭mousekime111rwb17_ESO wrote: »So Zenimax is in an awful position here. If they leave it as is, dungeons are just going to feel like chores, if they increase the accessibility of monster helm sets then people will abandon pledges and VR dungeons for more 'efficient' grinds taking progression over fun.
Ive been thinking this too. I think they should introduce PVE version of Cyrodil's APs, lets call them Veteran Points, and are gained by doing vet-content and vet-points could be used to get Cyrodil Ranks and Skill Points attached to them. I'd imagine players would do vet-dungeons then, especially those who dont like Cyrodil.
Also for Trials, VDSA and VMA should give you Leaderboards Points what can be used to buy cool exlusive bragging right stuff, higher you're in Leaderboards more points you get, rewards are like Mounts, Crafting Styles, Titles, and Dyes. What are never going to be sold at Crown Store. That should quarantee people do those too.Edited by Sausage on December 18, 2015 1:37PM0 -
mousekime111rwb17_ESO wrote: »So Zenimax is in an awful position here. If they leave it as is, dungeons are just going to feel like chores, if they increase the accessibility of monster helm sets then people will abandon pledges and VR dungeons for more 'efficient' grinds taking progression over fun.
Ive been thinking this too. I think they should introduce PVE version of Cyrodil's APs, lets call them Veteran Points, and are gained by doing vet-content and vet-points could be used to get Cyrodil Ranks and Skill Points attached to them. I'd imagine players would do vet-dungeons then, especially those who dont like Cyrodil.
Also for Trials, VDSA and VMA should give you Leaderboards Points what can be used to buy cool exlusive bragging right stuff, higher you're in Leaderboards more points you get, rewards are like Mounts, Crafting Styles, Titles, and Dyes. What are never going to be sold at Crown Store. That should quarantee people do those too.
I feel like ZoS is probably wanting to steer clear of adding in more currencies as they already have AP, gold and TV and are probably aiming at more creative ways of incentivising players to do content. Perhaps they WILL do something along those lines but the main point is, they need to incentivise people to do real, enjoyable content because for whatever crazy reason, simple fun isn't enough for people these days.0 -
Sausage✭✭✭✭✭
✭mousekime111rwb17_ESO wrote: »mousekime111rwb17_ESO wrote: »So Zenimax is in an awful position here. If they leave it as is, dungeons are just going to feel like chores, if they increase the accessibility of monster helm sets then people will abandon pledges and VR dungeons for more 'efficient' grinds taking progression over fun.
Ive been thinking this too. I think they should introduce PVE version of Cyrodil's APs, lets call them Veteran Points, and are gained by doing vet-content and vet-points could be used to get Cyrodil Ranks and Skill Points attached to them. I'd imagine players would do vet-dungeons then, especially those who dont like Cyrodil.
Also for Trials, VDSA and VMA should give you Leaderboards Points what can be used to buy cool exlusive bragging right stuff, higher you're in Leaderboards more points you get, rewards are like Mounts, Crafting Styles, Titles, and Dyes. What are never going to be sold at Crown Store. That should quarantee people do those too.
I feel like ZoS is probably wanting to steer clear of adding in more currencies as they already have AP, gold and TV and are probably aiming at more creative ways of incentivising players to do content. Perhaps they WILL do something along those lines but the main point is, they need to incentivise people to do real, enjoyable content because for whatever crazy reason, simple fun isn't enough for people these days.
I'd go with my idea, we all know there isnt that many players left, I'd "streamline" this. So in the future, there'd APs, Gold, Vet-Points, Leaderboards Points, and TSs, that should be more than enough for the game forever.0 -
Khaos_Bane wrote: »I agree with you that group dungeons are a huge issue right now. However, it's not only veteran dungeons. I have mentioned ideas similar to yours in several threads. It basically comes down to 4 man dungeon content needs to be made relevant for more than simply a couple of pledges a day and helm runs.
1. Doing four man dungeons should grant more XP.
2. 4 man dungeons should have repeatable quests, NOT JUST DAILY. Who came up with the daily idea and why?
3. There should be more configurable itemization similar to your re-forging idea. Look at Diablo 3 for some fantastic itemization ideas.
4. 4 man Dungeons should have quests with unique objectives similar to the pledges but more variety and NOT JUST DAILY.
Please ZoS, many of us like doing the 4 man content but there simply isn't enough incentive to make it worthwhile for others after pledges are done.
Make it easy for people to WANT to play the game.
"For the purposes of this thread I'll only be talking about vet dungeons, pledges and monster item sets, however the same underlying principals can apply to other gear progression content."
For sure I agree with you, I would kill for there to be demand in running VDSA again, and if they had some way of bringing a little bit of challenge into normal dungeons I'd love to visit VoM again and have the same challenge level as I experienced when I was new to the game and in really, really, bad gear and get something to show for it.0 -
mousekime111rwb17_ESO wrote: »mousekime111rwb17_ESO wrote: »So Zenimax is in an awful position here. If they leave it as is, dungeons are just going to feel like chores, if they increase the accessibility of monster helm sets then people will abandon pledges and VR dungeons for more 'efficient' grinds taking progression over fun.
Ive been thinking this too. I think they should introduce PVE version of Cyrodil's APs, lets call them Veteran Points, and are gained by doing vet-content and vet-points could be used to get Cyrodil Ranks and Skill Points attached to them. I'd imagine players would do vet-dungeons then, especially those who dont like Cyrodil.
Also for Trials, VDSA and VMA should give you Leaderboards Points what can be used to buy cool exlusive bragging right stuff, higher you're in Leaderboards more points you get, rewards are like Mounts, Crafting Styles, Titles, and Dyes. What are never going to be sold at Crown Store. That should quarantee people do those too.
I feel like ZoS is probably wanting to steer clear of adding in more currencies as they already have AP, gold and TV and are probably aiming at more creative ways of incentivising players to do content. Perhaps they WILL do something along those lines but the main point is, they need to incentivise people to do real, enjoyable content because for whatever crazy reason, simple fun isn't enough for people these days.
I'd go with my idea, we all know there isnt that many players left, I'd "streamline" this. So in the future, there'd APs, Gold, Vet-Points, Leaderboards Points, and TSs, that should be more than enough for the game forever.
Perhaps, you're right, perhaps I'm right, perhaps zenimax has something entirely different in the works that trumps both of our ideas. Let's stick to being constructive and agreeing that there simply has to be A FORM OF incentive to run 4 man content and trials.0 -
Sausage✭✭✭✭✭
✭mousekime111rwb17_ESO wrote: »mousekime111rwb17_ESO wrote: »mousekime111rwb17_ESO wrote: »So Zenimax is in an awful position here. If they leave it as is, dungeons are just going to feel like chores, if they increase the accessibility of monster helm sets then people will abandon pledges and VR dungeons for more 'efficient' grinds taking progression over fun.
Ive been thinking this too. I think they should introduce PVE version of Cyrodil's APs, lets call them Veteran Points, and are gained by doing vet-content and vet-points could be used to get Cyrodil Ranks and Skill Points attached to them. I'd imagine players would do vet-dungeons then, especially those who dont like Cyrodil.
Also for Trials, VDSA and VMA should give you Leaderboards Points what can be used to buy cool exlusive bragging right stuff, higher you're in Leaderboards more points you get, rewards are like Mounts, Crafting Styles, Titles, and Dyes. What are never going to be sold at Crown Store. That should quarantee people do those too.
I feel like ZoS is probably wanting to steer clear of adding in more currencies as they already have AP, gold and TV and are probably aiming at more creative ways of incentivising players to do content. Perhaps they WILL do something along those lines but the main point is, they need to incentivise people to do real, enjoyable content because for whatever crazy reason, simple fun isn't enough for people these days.
I'd go with my idea, we all know there isnt that many players left, I'd "streamline" this. So in the future, there'd APs, Gold, Vet-Points, Leaderboards Points, and TSs, that should be more than enough for the game forever.
Perhaps, you're right, perhaps I'm right, perhaps zenimax has something entirely different in the works that trumps both of our ideas. Let's stick to being constructive and agreeing that there simply has to be A FORM OF incentive to run 4 man content and trials.
Maybe Housing brings some reason to run Vet Dungeons, who knows.0 -
mousekime111rwb17_ESO wrote: »mousekime111rwb17_ESO wrote: »mousekime111rwb17_ESO wrote: »So Zenimax is in an awful position here. If they leave it as is, dungeons are just going to feel like chores, if they increase the accessibility of monster helm sets then people will abandon pledges and VR dungeons for more 'efficient' grinds taking progression over fun.
Ive been thinking this too. I think they should introduce PVE version of Cyrodil's APs, lets call them Veteran Points, and are gained by doing vet-content and vet-points could be used to get Cyrodil Ranks and Skill Points attached to them. I'd imagine players would do vet-dungeons then, especially those who dont like Cyrodil.
Also for Trials, VDSA and VMA should give you Leaderboards Points what can be used to buy cool exlusive bragging right stuff, higher you're in Leaderboards more points you get, rewards are like Mounts, Crafting Styles, Titles, and Dyes. What are never going to be sold at Crown Store. That should quarantee people do those too.
I feel like ZoS is probably wanting to steer clear of adding in more currencies as they already have AP, gold and TV and are probably aiming at more creative ways of incentivising players to do content. Perhaps they WILL do something along those lines but the main point is, they need to incentivise people to do real, enjoyable content because for whatever crazy reason, simple fun isn't enough for people these days.
I'd go with my idea, we all know there isnt that many players left, I'd "streamline" this. So in the future, there'd APs, Gold, Vet-Points, Leaderboards Points, and TSs, that should be more than enough for the game forever.
Perhaps, you're right, perhaps I'm right, perhaps zenimax has something entirely different in the works that trumps both of our ideas. Let's stick to being constructive and agreeing that there simply has to be A FORM OF incentive to run 4 man content and trials.
Maybe Housing brings some reason to run Vet Dungeons, who knows.
That could be interesting - maybe something like a trophy system, mount the king-black-dragon's head on your wall - er, I mean the ash titan's head
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Rune_Relic✭✭✭✭✭
✭The whole idea of arenas was to have stages that were harder.
The better you were the further you went.
The challenge was to progress as far as you could.
Dungeons should be the same.
Multiple levels......each with better rewards that were not gated.
Sure some people lol at vet dungeons....but many struggle.
Not everyone is on the same skill level for various mental or physical reasons.
Its not right to exclude them or make them feel unworthy and unwanted.
So a few of us head banged for while and came up with the idea of using what was there.
White/green/blue/purple/yellow dungeons that drop various qualities of the same armour.
This meant that no gear was gated....but there was a reason to attempt harder content and revisit.
Each dungeon giving a unique style just like the crafting stations.
Edited by Rune_Relic on December 18, 2015 2:59PMAnything that can be exploited will be exploited0 -
Rune_Relic wrote: »The whole idea of arenas was to have stages that were harder.
The better you were the further you went.
The challenge was to progress as far as you could.
Dungeons should be the same.
Multiple levels......each with better rewards that were not gated.
Sure some people lol at vet dungeons....but many struggle.
Not everyone is on the same skill level for various mental or physical reasons.
Its not right to exclude them or make them feel unworthy and unwanted.
So a few of us head banged for while and came up with the idea of using what was there.
White/green/blue/purple/yellow dungeons that drop various qualities of the same armour.
This meant that no gear was gated....but there was a reason to attempt harder content and revisit.
Each dungeon giving a unique style just like the crafting stations.
As much as I agree with you on this, it's a bit off topic from what I was talking about
0 -
ostrapz✭✭✭Rewards for the worthy doesnt seem like a bad idea, coming from a mainly pvp player. Though i will say the 15-20 minute rewards are almost always green. The purple and gold only comes from the end of campaign rewards so to make it even it would have to be drop rate even lower than 15% . I get about 7 purple at the end of 7day campaign with a good run. So the main thing is finding a sweet spot for that since i hear people can speedrun some vet dungeons so fast they would have to only be able to get about 1 after a day of grinding. Seems like a good idea to add extra benefits, not sure if people would take if as another grind or not though on pve sideXbox 1 NA
Stamblade: Grand overlord
Stamsorc: Major
Magplar: Centurion
551k vma0 -
Rewards for the worthy doesnt seem like a bad idea, coming from a mainly pvp player. Though i will say the 15-20 minute rewards are almost always green. The purple and gold only comes from the end of campaign rewards so to make it even it would have to be drop rate even lower than 15% . I get about 7 purple at the end of 7day campaign with a good run. So the main thing is finding a sweet spot for that since i hear people can speedrun some vet dungeons so fast they would have to only be able to get about 1 after a day of grinding. Seems like a good idea to add extra benefits, not sure if people would take if as another grind or not though on pve side
Hmmm, you make a good point, perhaps if they were to do a system where the RFTW boxes from the repeatable quests are the same as the every 15-20 minute drops from pvp and at certain thresholds you can get a weekly bonus of purple boxes. Like 10 extra dungeon runs over pledges = low tier rewards, 20 = mid tier, 30 = high tier. Idk, I'm just tossing numbers out for the sake of suggestion.0 -
ostrapz✭✭✭Big thing is i dont think zos is going to do any re-working of the dungeons probabaly ever. So the dungeon difficulty wont b changing. I think it could possibly be alot simpler for them to come up with new challenges. I havent run every pledge, correct me if im wrong but the extra challenge for a gold key seems to be the same each time. Assuming that these pieces will be bop as most dunegeon things. They could add 1 more challenge to the pledges. Regular pledge , vet pledge, and then an extra pledge ( for diffrent dungeon id say)with debateabley more diffculty/a bit more of ahandicap. So fighting darkshade gold means not using lever which it seems people learned to run with this mechanic. Make this extra pledge a for no sheilds to be used, a certain boss only takes range damage, or complete it with 3 people. Anything off the wall that completely throws out the possibility of running the dungeon without having to rethink how u wanna do it. In this type of scenario i think it would be an extra added challenge for people who have run these same dungeons for awhile, then they get the guarenteed reward for the worthy piece.Xbox 1 NA
Stamblade: Grand overlord
Stamsorc: Major
Magplar: Centurion
551k vma0