It does NOT make leveling easier. Please never use that justification. It will not make it any quicker to use the best in-game armor on your first character.

The gain will be on alts. Alts will be using current v16 armor while completing Colharbour.

I'm curious how XP will work in that case. Will Cadwell's Silver (CS) still have zone levels? Would this mean that an alt who starts CS with 300 CP will get reduced XP in that first zone due to being over-leveled based on CP? Or will CP only matter for gear tiers and would my brand new level 50 character just destroy those zones in her v16 gear?

How will Orsinium scale? How would leveling scale in Cyrodiil?

Lenikus wrote: »

Removing VR because :
- Player base demanded it.
- It makes leveling easier and the whole game coding simpler long term (ie not having 2 level counts anymore, just Levels and one simple "veteran status" once you hit 50
- Did i mention that player base demanded it real hard back then ? Rly, search the forums

None of that explains why it wouldn't make more sense to call VR1-16 levels 51-66 instead, from either the players' or developers' point of view.

I understand the antagonism towards Cadwells, I share it, it makes no sense whatsoever and I don't have any wish to do it, but removing a seperate high-end leveling system entirely makes no more sense than having it in the first place, while replacing it with an extension of the standard leveling system makes far more sense - and provides proper scope for further extensions of the levels with future DLCs.

Lenikus wrote: »

Removing VR because :
- Player base demanded it.
- It makes leveling easier and the whole game coding simpler long term (ie not having 2 level counts anymore, just Levels and one simple "veteran status" once you hit 50
- Did i mention that player base demanded it real hard back then ? Rly, search the forums

The 'player base' did not demand it. Just some very loud people on this forum who do not make up (or speak for) the majority of the players.

KewaG wrote: »

Tandor wrote: »

Lenikus wrote: »

Removing VR because :
- Player base demanded it.
- It makes leveling easier and the whole game coding simpler long term (ie not having 2 level counts anymore, just Levels and one simple "veteran status" once you hit 50
- Did i mention that player base demanded it real hard back then ? Rly, search the forums

None of that explains why it wouldn't make more sense to call VR1-16 levels 51-66 instead, from either the players' or developers' point of view.

I understand the antagonism towards Cadwells, I share it, it makes no sense whatsoever and I don't have any wish to do it, but removing a seperate high-end leveling system entirely makes no more sense than having it in the first place, while replacing it with an extension of the standard leveling system makes far more sense - and provides proper scope for further extensions of the levels with future DLCs.

While I agree that I would like to see levels up to 66 or 100 for that matter, that means you still have to grind every character to max level. Personally I don't care! I'd rather level a character to max as opposed to get max automatically at Level 50. It gives me more of a sense of accomplishment in the end. Others, who reroll regularly, will not like this idea because they hate the repetitive nature of the grind. I can understand both sides but in the end ZOS will do what ZOS will do, like it or not.

It's largely only the pure PvPers who complain about grinding out levels, most PvE players don't consider questing and exploration etc to be grinding, the whole process of leveling through such things is why they play a game. The solution to the PvPers' short attention span in PvE and their urge to get the maximum level skills as quickly as possible is really best provided by the original GW model of creating finished characters just for PvP.

Sharkano wrote: »

The VR system just let them have a cheap way to get people from lvl 50 to 66 without having to create new areas (they just used the same ones they already had). If they want to get rid of that concept, no problem. But to radically change levels to being based on cp has got to be a huge revamp, and serves no real purpose as far as I can tell (other than to make the assertion "VR is gone").

Well, it depends on how you're defining things. The "VR system" and "Cadwells" are two very separate concepts, the latter was simply introduced late in beta as a response to those single character testers who complained that they couldn't see the whole world unless they rolled alts. The former was simply the leveling system adopted for that process, but could just as easily have been a continuation of the main leveling system, i.e. 51 to 66 or whatever was deemed appropriate for the amount of content. I personally don't like the whole concept of Cadwells and also don't see why the leveling system had to be changed to accommodate it.

By the same token I therefore don't see why the VR system now has to be absorbed into the CP system. Just change "VR1-16" to "51-66", and provide both Cadwells and DLC like Imperial City and Orsinium as the alternative options for progression at that stage of the game. Job done.

Sharkano wrote: »

Ok, one of my biggest problems with this game (been here since beta) is the developers' schizophrenia in their constant remaking of the game, throwing everything into chaos (again, and again, and again). Just when it settles, they flip the boat over. (Examples: forward camps/no forward camps; craglorn is a leveling spot/hose craglorn; skill and set nerfs by the dozens; huge changes to siege weapons/revoke same; push cp/cap cp, etc. You all can probably add 50 similar things.) It's like the headless horseman running willy-nilly across the landscape, with no sense or thought as to whither it goest.

Now, they are working to convert the VR system to a cp system. This will eat up ungodly amounts of developer time that could have been used to fix bugs, and I simply do not understand why this would ever be done. The VR system (which is just a level 50 to 66 ramp-up, and why they called it "VR" as opposed to letting levels just go to 66 is beyond me) is just a "spend the time, increase in level" system. Wiping the whole thing out to turn it into a "level up to 501" (or whatever they cap cp at) is no different. You will have to put in the time to level up. You will end up in precisely the same spot you always have with every MMO: spend the time, you get better; don't spend the time and you won't. This is worth yet another massive "remake" to this game? Really? I think someone at the top needs some Haldol for the delusions . . . .

Search function can give you the answers you seek.

DaveMoeDee wrote: »

It does NOT make leveling easier. Please never use that justification. It will not make it any quicker to use the best in-game armor on your first character.

The gain will be on alts. Alts will be using current v16 armor while completing Colharbour.

I'm curious how XP will work in that case. Will Cadwell's Silver (CS) still have zone levels? Would this mean that an alt who starts CS with 300 CP will get reduced XP in that first zone due to being over-leveled based on CP? Or will CP only matter for gear tiers and would my brand new level 50 character just destroy those zones in her v16 gear?

How will Orsinium scale? How would leveling scale in Cyrodiil?

How will it not be easier? Just curious. I don't play much because of work and kids but I do get some binge sessions in and I'm over 220 cp now. I think that's a lot

Magdalina wrote: »

It's not lvl 50-66, it's more like 50-210 or something. Though experience required has been nerfed but it's still nowhere near 50-66.
Also, because a lot of players(especially those of us who have been here a while, including me) want it. Can't happen too soon.

Biggest reason for why we want is is alt leveling. This WILL be a lot faster.
Part of the argument is also that a lot of people don't like feeling pigeon holed into Cadwell's Silver and Gold to essentially do same quests over and over again for the alliances they didn't choose, but technically people will still have to for champion points I guess. At least we won't have to do it for 10th time on alts though

I agree with most of what you said. But the fact you won't be doing Silver/Gold on your alts is a problem if nothing is done to incentivize players to do them. I'm doing Silver now and a lot of the time it feels like I'm playing a single player game. I'd hate to see what it will be like after they dump VR. Sure, I (and a lot of us) won't have to deal with this directly, but I see it being very discouraging to new players to continue playing after Cold Harbour.

Danksta wrote: »

Magdalina wrote: »

It's not lvl 50-66, it's more like 50-210 or something. Though experience required has been nerfed but it's still nowhere near 50-66.
Also, because a lot of players(especially those of us who have been here a while, including me) want it. Can't happen too soon.

Biggest reason for why we want is is alt leveling. This WILL be a lot faster.
Part of the argument is also that a lot of people don't like feeling pigeon holed into Cadwell's Silver and Gold to essentially do same quests over and over again for the alliances they didn't choose, but technically people will still have to for champion points I guess. At least we won't have to do it for 10th time on alts though

I agree with most of what you said. But the fact you won't be doing Silver/Gold on your alts is a problem if nothing is done to incentivize players to do them. I'm doing Silver now and a lot of the time it feels like I'm playing a single player game. I'd hate to see what it will be like after they dump VR. Sure, I (and a lot of us) won't have to deal with this directly, but I see it being very discouraging to new players to continue playing after Cold Harbour.

Can't be much worse than now to be honest. I haven't done Gold on either of my alts, I have done Silver on one of them purely because I wanted to have Pact Hero title on my AD character but I HATED it. There is no incentive to do them again, rewards are meaningless, xp is laughable, achievements are useless for alts(I guess some people like hoarding achievements on ALL characters but I imagine most like me just go for the main), mobs die from a sneeze and by alt #3 you remember the storylines by heart and it almost physically hurts to do same quest YET AGAIN.
I'm not sure there is any way to make those zones more populated/popular at all. As it is now, I'd rather not have any more alts (because I absolutely refuse to do Cadwell's again) and try to slowly level the existing ones in dungeons/Wrothgar/Sewers. As it will be with no VR(hopefully) I might make a few more alts and enjoy them, but nothing will move me into Cadwell's again.

Well, almost nothing. Maybe they can pay me enough for it or something

I just do the quests in Cadwells journal to get skill points. I revisit the zones when I feel I need more sky shards. Rest of my xp is mob grinding. Personally capping at 50 for alts and going by CP from there on is ideal since I wish to experiment with both stamina an magicka builds with every class. The time saved would allow me to do this.

VR removal is not something they are just starting on, it's basically been in the works since shortly after launch when it became clear that lots of players hated it. Many people left the game when they hit the wall that is veteran ranks and it's likely that new players will continue to do so should VR remain, not good for a game that depends on people staying around and spending more money.

Some reasons CP is superior to VR:

• Alts, alts, alts. Making it fun to create alts means that people play longer and hopefully spend more money. VR makes leveling alts really painful, but CP is account wide.
• ZOS has more control with CP via the cap and catch-up mechanic, they can use those to keep the player base closer together and thus encounter much less difficulty when balancing content.
• Champion points are earned much faster than veteran ranks, giving a more immediate sense of progression. Even after nerfing the XP requirements for veteran ranks they still take forever to earn. Sure, hardcore players can grind them out in Cracked Wood Cave pretty quickly, but for casual players the 13 million XP mountain is quite intimidating.
• Caldwell's sucks hard after your second or third time through it. After VR removal it will go from being an almost mandatory grind to a place you just jump into when you need a few more skill points.

Tandor wrote: »

Lenikus wrote: »

Removing VR because :
- Player base demanded it.
- It makes leveling easier and the whole game coding simpler long term (ie not having 2 level counts anymore, just Levels and one simple "veteran status" once you hit 50
- Did i mention that player base demanded it real hard back then ? Rly, search the forums

None of that explains why it wouldn't make more sense to call VR1-16 levels 51-66 instead, from either the players' or developers' point of view.

I understand the antagonism towards Cadwells, I share it, it makes no sense whatsoever and I don't have any wish to do it, but removing a seperate high-end leveling system entirely makes no more sense than having it in the first place, while replacing it with an extension of the standard leveling system makes far more sense - and provides proper scope for further extensions of the levels with future DLCs.

The reason they were called different things is that there is a fundamental shift in the VR levels to how much XP you need to level. As far as I'm concerned, that was the whole point of VR. In regular levels, you will level up multiple times per zone. At vet, once per zone, more or less.

This is a major benefit as gear does not age as quickly. It also means the gap between the beginning and end of Cadwell's Silver is 5 levels. The gap between the beginning and end of your alliance's zone is approximately 47 levels.

So vet levels were far superior to regular levels if the idea is to have high level players more tightly clustered in power.

DaveMoeDee wrote: »

wayfarerx wrote: »

[*] Caldwell's sucks hard after your second or third time through it. After VR removal it will go from being an almost mandatory grind to a place you just jump into when you need a few more skill

I agree with the reasons you gave but have reservations on this one because it singles out Cadwell's. Levels 1-50 suck too that third time.

I don't know if I agree that 1-50 sucks each time through. It's the same quests and all, but for me 1-50 is playing a new character with a new build that I have not tried before. There are main quest / fighters guild / mages guild quests to mix in and spice things up a little. Levels go by fast, you're always trying out new gear or a new skill you just unlocked. And honestly I've loved Coldharbour every time I've gone through it (five times now).

Then you hit vet. You have your build mostly figured out and most of your main skills unlocked. You've saved the world and triumphed over impossible odds... now off to Stonefalls to chase guar.

I would gladly pay crowns for another option when talking to Caldwell, something along the lines of "**** you Caldwell, you go grind out two more factions if it's so important to you."

Sharkano wrote: »

The VR system (which is just a level 50 to 66 ramp-up, and why they called it "VR" as opposed to letting levels just go to 66 is beyond me) is just a "spend the time, increase in level" system.

Its really not though. In Coldharbor you can level from 43ish-v1 ... in Caldwell's Silver/Gold you might get 1 VR per zone. SO each VR is like at least 5 levels when you factor in time per zone. So levels 50-66 is really like 50-130. Hence the reason they've suggested 130 as the CP as the max level gear cap (to start).

The biggest issue with VR system is that people just don't care to quest through Gold and Silver after completing their own factions quests and before getting to max level and joining their Trials and PVP, etc. ... and should never have been required to.

The VR we're a crappy concept the Devs put because some people wanted to do all content on 1 character. They add to VR ranks to make this possible rather then just having all Zones in Caldwell's be the same level as endgame, and it's cost them a ton of subscriptions. It's just more un-needed level gap and delay to End game.

It's 3x the questing ... or you can skip the quest and grind levels . Then find you don't have any content your level and cry that there's not enough content in the game. For some this is true. They've done every quest and side quests, every dungeon, every Trial and are Alliance rank 50. There are also many however who skipped a ton of content they have no incentive to go back to..

Also there's no real reason to revisit plays you may have LOVED to play, like Craglorn.

I'd like all lvl 50 (or Champion) to have access to all 3 factions lands at max level so that quests missed can be completed without losing out on progression. Extending content. Great way to keep your customers from legit running out of things to do. Then they can have Dailies for each zone like they did in Cyro, Ors, IC, and Craglorn.

If ZOS was smart they'd have removed VR, and Caldwell's Silver and Gold from the base game and sold it in the crown store for anyone who wanted those options. Of course anyone who had access at the time of F2P launch would still have access with out spending crown after. Same for Craglorn.