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Let's talk damage modifiers and game balance (Snipe, Cfrags, Surprise Attack, oh my)

Kutsuu
Kutsuu
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These forums have been alight, even after the 50% damage reduction, with posts about huge damage and 1-shots (or 2-3 shots that give little time to react). Everyone's posts ask to nerf this ability, or nerf that ability. In the last week I've read multiple posts asking for nerfs to Snipe, Surprise Attack, and Crystal Frags. You guys seemingly don't mind the 20k+ DK heavy attacks/15k+ leaps, but let's just pretend that we don't want to be 1-shotted even by DKs for the sake of this discussion.

My suggestion is not to nerf the base damage of the above mentioned abilities, but to adjust the mechanics of damage modifiers in a way that does not "break" when min/maxing. There are many damage modifiers in this game - just to name a few: Mighty/Thaumaturge/Elemental Expert (CP passive, up to 25%), Empower (ambush, WB, might of the guild, etc), Death Stroke debuff (20% inc damage), Grim Focus (8%), Molten Weapons/Armaments (40%, up to as much as 150%). All of these modifiers share one very important mechanic - they modify your final damage value, after calculating all damage adjustments from resource pools and weapon/spell damage. This wasn't necessarily a problem early in the game when we couldn't very easily stack extremely high resource and spell/weapon damage values, and CPs were not further amplifying the effect.

These days, damage can be stacked to very high values, then modified by large %age values. Some of you might remember another game called Age of Conan, which crashed and burned early in its life largely due to a very similar mechanic. You could stack weapon damage gems in crafted armor, then stack % damage modifiers and 1-shot people. Funcom let the game crash and burn before adjusting things, but they did eventually create some restrictions to how much damage you could stack, and much more importantly they changed the way that damage modifiers function.

Here is what I am proposing: Make % damage modifiers modify your base weapon/spell damage that is granted by your weapons ONLY. As an example, let's take a 2her that gives you 1400 weapon damage and a 20% damage modifier. Instead of letting the 20% damage modifier directly increase your final damage by 20% (making a 10k hit into a 12k hit, for example), apply it only to the base weapon damage of 1400, making that 1400 into 1680, to be used in the calculation of your final damage. This would account for more like a 3-4% overall damage increase, and would not "stack" on top of already stacked values from min/maxing damage stats. Multiple %age modifiers should stack additively based on that base damage, rather than multiplicatively (in the example above, another 20% modifier would still only apply to the 1400, not the 1680).

Now I understand that this makes damage modifiers less valuable and it will change many builds, but I believe it is very important for the combat system in this game to be balanced. With the current system of modifiers, no matter how much you nerf individual abilities, there will always be cases where players can cause incredible amounts of damage, and other players who don't realize how the stacking works will be hitting like limp noodles and underperforming. Once this change is made, abilities that grant modifiers can be revisited, and class balance can be revisited. Anyway that's my 2 cents on the matter.
Edited by Kutsuu on December 13, 2015 3:54PM
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Envy Me - Sorc
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  • Spearshard
    Spearshard
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    The easiest way to combat the power creep is to bring back soft caps and cap the bonus you get from any CP star at 5%. This would end the endless stacking of weapon/spell dmg and bring back more diversity to builds and armor sets. With this you can't stack dmg and penetration.
    Edited by Spearshard on December 13, 2015 3:58PM
  • Kutsuu
    Kutsuu
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    Spearshard wrote: »
    The easiest way to combat the power creep is to bring back soft caps and cap the bonus you get from any CP star at 5%. This would end the endless stacking of weapon/spell dmg and bring back more diversity to builds and armor sets. With this you can't stack dmg and penetration.

    I believe soft caps is largely a topic for another discussion, but it is not a bad idea to have some caps in place. They should be higher than the old soft caps for sure, as we were able to soft cap pretty much all stats and it made hybrid builds more of a requirement than an option for those who wished to be as effective as possible. Changing the modifier mechanics in the way I proposed would be instrumental in preventing 1-shot damage even without having to bring the caps back IMO.
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  • Vangy
    Vangy
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    Hmm I never get 1 shot on my dk or sorc. The problem comes in when people stack one main resource, with maximum spell/weapon power and don't give a hoot about health. Then they get 1 shot and forums are flooded with omg that snipe/Wb/frag spammer killed me omg omg zos fail balance balance nerf nerf!

    My dk has NEVER gotten 1 shot since he got to v16. Neither has my sorc. Yes I do get burst down sometimes but never 1 shot. If u keep getting 1 shot try giving up some magicka/stam for some health. Or throw on a piece of heavy. Or maybe run major/minor defensive buffs. If ur running a full damage build with 18k health unbuffed u should get 1 shot by another full damage build. That's fair to me. Don't see why people think 1 shots shouldn't ever be allowed. If ur running with 2 pieces heavy and 20+k health unbuffed and u still get 1 shot, then we have a problem. But if ur strutting around with 18k in all light/medium and u get 1 shot then it's normal and you should expect it lol.

    The recent damage reduction is MORE than enough to stop most people from getting one shot provided they are running a pvp worthy build that has some measure of defense. One shots used to be a problem yes, but now if anything I think the damage reduction compounded with Aoe caps in pvp is a tad too much.
    Edited by Vangy on December 13, 2015 4:21PM
    (2)V16 Dk- stam dps/stam tank/mag dps
    (2)V16 Sorc- mag dps/stam dps
    (2)V16 nb- stam dps/mag dps
    (1)v16 temp- mag tank/mag dps
    CP: 610 and counting

    PAWS (Positively Against Wrip-off Stuff) - Say No to Crown Crates! Viva la revolutionz
  • Kutsuu
    Kutsuu
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    I don't think 1-2 shots are conducive to enjoyable pvp gameplay in a MMORPG. It makes sense in a FPS but not here. Keep in mind that the changes I'm proposing will still allow you to do very big damage in a min/maxed dps build. 7-10k hits with the big DPS abilities are possible without adding another 50-100% from modifiers.
    PC/NA

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  • Vangy
    Vangy
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    Hmm

    I don't know about this though. I can't imagine having to regear both my v16s. That would cost me around 1 mil + and frankly I don't think 1 hits are common enough to be a problem. The only people I see getting 1 hits are full dps builds with 0 heavy pieces and under 20+ k health and rightfully so.
    (2)V16 Dk- stam dps/stam tank/mag dps
    (2)V16 Sorc- mag dps/stam dps
    (2)V16 nb- stam dps/mag dps
    (1)v16 temp- mag tank/mag dps
    CP: 610 and counting

    PAWS (Positively Against Wrip-off Stuff) - Say No to Crown Crates! Viva la revolutionz
  • Kutsuu
    Kutsuu
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    Why would you have to regear because damage modifiers are less powerful? Did you read the original post? I am not asking for a reduction to weapon damage or soft caps/hard caps.
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  • OGLezard
    OGLezard
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    Bring back 1.5 with today's cp and skill adjustments. That is all. Imo, since 1.5, the game has gone away from the idea of balance
  • Alcast
    Alcast
    Class Representative
    With softcaps we had no such problems. Now it is Min/max or gtfo :(
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  • Forestd16b14_ESO
    Forestd16b14_ESO
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    More proof at the gap between damage and defense.

    *drinks mead*

    ~ Hope dies last just like tanks.
  • AlnilamE
    AlnilamE
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    I have just recently started PvPing more, both with my NB and my sorc.

    I don't usually get one-shot. I look at the death recap, and I'm usually being hit by at least 2 players when I die fast enough that I can't react/escape.

    I also noticed that after a few days of PvP, my reaction time has improved and I'm more likely to escape and ambush or get out of the way of damage before I get killed.

    Neither my NB or my sorc have any special PvP gear right now, as I'm still trying to sort out what that's going to be, but I always make sure that my characters have 20k health out of Cyrodiil with food buffs, and that goes up in Cyro.
    The Moot Councillor
  • Kutsuu
    Kutsuu
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    There is more than sufficient proof posted all over these forums that stacking the right bonuses can result in damage from a single attack in excess of 15k damage, some over 20k. Combine this in a combo including a little animation canceling or follow it up with a high damage attack and it's possible to kill your average 18-22k hp player in a second or less.

    Not all pvpers are doing it, but it's prevalent and I'm quite surprised to see people disputing this. Just go watch the Xeloki DK one-shot videos as an example. He's not just doing this from in-stealth heavy attacks, but is also able to do it empowering leap. When someone drops from 100-0 before they can react, it's not a L2P issue.

    Please don't get me wrong, I main a stamina NB with a ganky high weapon damage build and the majority of my fights start with my opponent at 30% hp or less (usually dead). This would effect me as much as anyone.

    Soft caps could be an alternative solution... But my experience tells me that multiplicative bonuses to damage are a slippery slope that makes balance hard to achieve.
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  • Malmai
    Malmai
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    Kutsuu wrote: »
    There is more than sufficient proof posted all over these forums that stacking the right bonuses can result in damage from a single attack in excess of 15k damage, some over 20k. Combine this in a combo including a little animation canceling or follow it up with a high damage attack and it's possible to kill your average 18-22k hp player in a second or less.

    Not all pvpers are doing it, but it's prevalent and I'm quite surprised to see people disputing this. Just go watch the Xeloki DK one-shot videos as an example. He's not just doing this from in-stealth heavy attacks, but is also able to do it empowering leap. When someone drops from 100-0 before they can react, it's not a L2P issue.

    Please don't get me wrong, I main a stamina NB with a ganky high weapon damage build and the majority of my fights start with my opponent at 30% hp or less (usually dead). This would effect me as much as anyone.

    Soft caps could be an alternative solution... But my experience tells me that multiplicative bonuses to damage are a slippery slope that makes balance hard to achieve.

    So you are saying that you gnna afk on a horse and somebody is gnna pillow fight you till you come back ? Its like in Counter Strike you get headshot with AK47 you are dead... And believe me ESO can have really long fights, im talking about players who can play and have best gear,cp cap builds... It just depends how flexible are you and knowing how to counter different classes, builds etc...
  • Catblade
    Catblade
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    Here's what I propose, get used to it and stop the QQ already.
  • Kutsuu
    Kutsuu
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    Malmai wrote: »
    Kutsuu wrote: »
    There is more than sufficient proof posted all over these forums that stacking the right bonuses can result in damage from a single attack in excess of 15k damage, some over 20k. Combine this in a combo including a little animation canceling or follow it up with a high damage attack and it's possible to kill your average 18-22k hp player in a second or less.

    Not all pvpers are doing it, but it's prevalent and I'm quite surprised to see people disputing this. Just go watch the Xeloki DK one-shot videos as an example. He's not just doing this from in-stealth heavy attacks, but is also able to do it empowering leap. When someone drops from 100-0 before they can react, it's not a L2P issue.

    Please don't get me wrong, I main a stamina NB with a ganky high weapon damage build and the majority of my fights start with my opponent at 30% hp or less (usually dead). This would effect me as much as anyone.

    Soft caps could be an alternative solution... But my experience tells me that multiplicative bonuses to damage are a slippery slope that makes balance hard to achieve.

    So you are saying that you gnna afk on a horse and somebody is gnna pillow fight you till you come back ? Its like in Counter Strike you get headshot with AK47 you are dead... And believe me ESO can have really long fights, im talking about players who can play and have best gear,cp cap builds... It just depends how flexible are you and knowing how to counter different classes, builds etc...

    Please indicate where I said that I want to be able to afk on my horse in pvp. Even without the damage bonuses I can kill someone in 2-3 seconds if they do not react (and they deserve it if they let it go that long). It's just less enjoyable when it's a down right 1 shot that can't be countered. I'm perfectly ok with the 7-10k big hits that DPS types can achieve (and end fights very fast with) without stacking all the % modifiers that can jack them up in the 15-20k range.

    Since my last post somehow wasn't clear enough, I play a ganky nightblade build - I'm the one ganking people off their horses, not the other way around. No need for a horse with retreating maneuvers and dark stalker. And even then, I am not talking about horse ganks. I am talking about taking a player who is alert and prepared being taken from 100-0 in a split second before a twitch counter can be performed. You can see dozens of cases of this in Xeloki vids where a heavy attack cancelled by silver shards instantly kills.

    I'm just looking for ways to make the pvp more consistently enjoyable to keep people playing.
    Edited by Kutsuu on December 13, 2015 8:11PM
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  • Kammakazi
    Kammakazi
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    Catblade wrote: »
    Here's what I propose, get used to it and stop the QQ already.

  • Refuse2GrowUp
    Refuse2GrowUp
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    Are CP caps and a 50% damage reduction in PvP not enough? Must we continuously nerf and cap everything?

    Wayyyyyy too many people left the game ofter the IC patch because of the increased TTK and battle spirit nerfs. PvP almost feels like a Disney game where almost anyone can be successful...with very little to no skill involved. Spammable skills and one-button controllers; lower levels that have better stats than V16s due to battle leveling; and the current PvP meta with zergs and AOE caps...is this really the direction we want the game to go? Do we really want 1m+ TTKs?
    Edited by Refuse2GrowUp on December 13, 2015 10:11PM
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  • Kutsuu
    Kutsuu
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    Are CP caps and a 50% damage reduction in PvP not enough? Must we continuously nerf and cap everything?

    Wayyyyyy too many people left the game ofter the IC patch because of the decreased TTK and battle spirit nerfs. PvP almost feels like a Disney game where almost anyone can be successful...with very little to no skill involved. Spammable skills and one-button controllers; lower levels that have better stats than V16s due to battle leveling; and the current PvP meta with zergs and AOE caps...is this really the direction we want the game to go? Do we really want 1m+ TTKs?

    Again, you can still easily achieve 7-10k hits on the big dps abilities without the large damage modifiers that can allow them to get up to double that. That is still 30-50% of a players life in one attack. How is that going to translate to multi minute TTKs?
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  • Refuse2GrowUp
    Refuse2GrowUp
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    7-10k hits equals 3.5-5k hits in PvP (non-crit). This could be easily healed thru with the most mediocre of healing skills. You will see many 1v1 battles that last long enough for someone to casually call in reinforcements.

    I am not trying to be obnoxious or abrasive, and don't mean this trolling, but simply it seems more like a pillow fight to me.

    * The game needs a little class balance
    * They need to fix the myriad of glitches and bugs; with broken CC immunity being one of the critical issues in PvP
    * They need to fix lag
    * Exploits and game breaking glitches/bugs need to be addressed much more timely
    * AOE caps need to go away and they need to implement some of the siege weapon buffs they are considering
    * Purge, barrier, and retreating maneuvers may need to be addressed depending upon how they address AOE caps and Siege Wpns

    *** I would even go as far as to say they should implement different PvP and PvE profiles as balancing skills for both PvP and PvE seems to be a big hurdle for the dev team. Skills can be buffed/nerfed in PvP and have no effect on PvE and this would allow players to set up skills, morphs, and equipment sets independent of each.

    Personally, I think the constant cry for nerfs needs to stop there until the critical issues are adressed and we can get a baseline assessment of nature and meta of PvP once the aforementioned happens. This of course does not conform to your opinion, and fellow players may or may not agree...but you asked for opinions and this is mine.
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  • Kutsuu
    Kutsuu
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    I'm obviously talking about 7-10k in pvp. Not 3-5k. I have not said a single thing about PVE in this thread and that is still true. I hope that also makes it obvious that I'm talking the 15-20k in pvp also.

    Edit: that said I agree with all of your points for things that need work. My main concern and reason for this post is that ZOS is going to look at theae screenshots and videos of insta gib damage and they are going to cave in to all the whining to nerf our main DPS abilities and force us all to carry structured entropy and such to get any damage done.
    Edited by Kutsuu on December 13, 2015 9:18PM
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  • Refuse2GrowUp
    Refuse2GrowUp
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    Kutsuu wrote: »
    I have not said a single thing about PVE in this thread and that is still true.

    No, you didn't mention PvE, but the suggested changes will effect PvE none-the-less.

    And also keep in mind that your suggested changes are to limit top end power caps, but they will also limit lower level players or those that cant or wont stack for min/max. And this will effect the power output of those players both in PvP and PvE. There are enough people that whine about how difficult dungeons are now. This would make it that much more difficult for them (especially considering your suggested changes effect not just damage output but presumably damage mitigation and healing as well).

    Again, you don't have to agree with me. Just offering counter views to your idea~

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  • Kutsuu
    Kutsuu
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    Agreed that this would have an effect on PVE dps and rotations. Surely there are ways to compensate for that, and I would hope that ZOS takes that into consideration before making a major change.

    I assume you replied before reading my edit since I did affirm that I agree with many of your points.

    As far as how this would effect low level or under geared players - since the damage increase would affect base weapon/spell damage rather than a modifier on total damage, players without lots of stacked weapon/spell damage would see a bigger overall benefit to their damage than their stacked counterparts as far as percentages are concerned. It would still be less damage overall than it is now of course, but there is always the opportunity to make additional adjustments after making the mechanic switch. Changes to scaling and base damage could make for easy incremental adjustments to get it right.

    Edited by Kutsuu on December 13, 2015 9:33PM
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  • Wizzo91
    Wizzo91
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    I can't remember getting onehitted (by a single skill) ever in PVP by a single person without stealth and camo hunter. There are some situations with camo hunter vs. vamps where the damage is definitely too high and you can't react. But if you catch these players out of stealth they often have no chance vs. a decent player because their sustain sucks. Very situational builds at best.

    Snipe is a *** skill and only works good out of stealth. If you know it's coming it is no problem. Frags and WB seem fine IMO. WB has a cast time and frags is easily avoidable (block, dodgeroll, reflect). Actually very hard to hit decent players with a frag because it's so freakin obvious and if you are fighting a sorc you shouled be ready for it..

    There are some burst combos (not talking out of stealth here) like frags + curse + prox det that can do tons of damage in a short period of time. Like mentioned above it takes some skill to pull something off like that.



    The only problem I see at the moment are some combos out of stealth. Normal damage without stealth seems fine tbh. Maybe some balancing tweaks between the classes.
    Kutsuu wrote: »
    Are CP caps and a 50% damage reduction in PvP not enough? Must we continuously nerf and cap everything?

    Wayyyyyy too many people left the game ofter the IC patch because of the decreased TTK and battle spirit nerfs. PvP almost feels like a Disney game where almost anyone can be successful...with very little to no skill involved. Spammable skills and one-button controllers; lower levels that have better stats than V16s due to battle leveling; and the current PvP meta with zergs and AOE caps...is this really the direction we want the game to go? Do we really want 1m+ TTKs?

    Again, you can still easily achieve 7-10k hits on the big dps abilities without the large damage modifiers that can allow them to get up to double that. That is still 30-50% of a players life in one attack. How is that going to translate to multi minute TTKs?

    TTKs can be very long in 1v1s if the players are of the same skill. Even with surp attacks at 6k-8k damage (I have never seen more than 8k on my SORC with LA and no shields up). Every class and build has access to heals and/or shields. Of course you have to look at 1v1 output to see if the damage is ok or not. You should not complain if 3+ players jump you and you die in 1-2 secs. I think that's how it should be.
    Edited by Wizzo91 on December 13, 2015 9:56PM
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  • CyrusArya
    CyrusArya
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    No. Stop trying to dumb the game down and make it more forgiving for the types that QQ in these forums. Those people are not representative of the community, just a very vocal and annoying minority. No matter what happens, as long as this game is playable, someone will be getting rekt and will come cry about it on here. No matter what changes happen. Nerfing everything to oblivion is not the solution. TTK right now is just perfect in my opinion. The higher you push it, the more you hurt solo/small scale PvP. And the last thing this game needs is more zerging.
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  • Vangy
    Vangy
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    ^ this right here. Ttk is more than enough in legit fights where both players are skilled and have pvp worthy builds. Hell most times I duel the fights last like 5 minutes and one of us only wins because of a crucial misplay. Stealth ganking and the occasional camo hunter proc gimmicks and getting killed while riding on a horse should not be the baseline to completely redesign the game. Cos that's what ur asking for. Changing weapon damage this way will take my pve setup weapon damage down by close to 1000. That means I'll have to completely regear my characters. Not necessary imo. 50% damage reduction with Aoe caps already make my life hard enough as it is agaisnt Zerg balls. Not to mention siege damage reduction. No please no more.
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    (2)V16 Sorc- mag dps/stam dps
    (2)V16 nb- stam dps/mag dps
    (1)v16 temp- mag tank/mag dps
    CP: 610 and counting

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  • Vangy
    Vangy
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    Kutsuu wrote: »
    Why would you have to regear because damage modifiers are less powerful? Did you read the original post? I am not asking for a reduction to weapon damage or soft caps/hard caps.

    Also here let me give u some perspective. I have unbuffed 3.5k weapon damage. 20% of this is a huge number. With briar procs on top of this I'll be sitting at close to 5k. My guild group bursts down bosses in under a minute so my build dosent focus on sustain cos it's not needed in pve. You change weapon damage your gona gimp not just my build but a lot of the other pve builds out there. It costs a kidney to get yellow tempers please so there is no reason to change something that's completely fine at the moment. One shots hardly ever happen to people that don't deserve them.
    (2)V16 Dk- stam dps/stam tank/mag dps
    (2)V16 Sorc- mag dps/stam dps
    (2)V16 nb- stam dps/mag dps
    (1)v16 temp- mag tank/mag dps
    CP: 610 and counting

    PAWS (Positively Against Wrip-off Stuff) - Say No to Crown Crates! Viva la revolutionz
  • Catblade
    Catblade
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    This is the same blah blah complaint that happened before the 50% dmg reduction. Now you have your reduction and one shots are back. Get used to them because they will come back even after another nerf.
  • silky_soft
    silky_soft
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    If you get soft caps, I want spell pen and crit to affect shields.

    If you are vamp or less then 20k HP with no heavy you deserve to insta die.
    This recent update has made me sad. Sad for the game. Sad for the community. Sad to pay whatever it is now. I want the previous eso back.
  • MrDerrikk
    MrDerrikk
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    silky_soft wrote: »
    If you get soft caps, I want spell pen and crit to affect shields.

    If you are vamp or less then 20k HP with no heavy you deserve to insta die.

    Oh course, if you're a Vamp with 30k health and full heavy then you can get 2-hit, but that's okay because it's not 1-hit.
    I have departed into the great unknown that is outside the game and the forums, and wish you well in your Tamriel adventures!

    DC - PC - EU - Australian
    VR11 Mrderrikk: Breton Stam Sorc (Vamp) | VR16 Derrikkinblack: Dunmer Mage DK | VR3 Cuts-Until-It-Dies: Argonian Magicka NB

    Oh look, Anook.
  • GreenSoup2HoT
    GreenSoup2HoT
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    ✭✭
    I totally agree. It really suck's being a vampire when every single stamina build these day's use's flawless dawn-breaker for the 8% damage increase.

    If is was only base damage, more ultimate's would be chosen giving vampire's like me a break.



    What i don't get. Zos decreased everyone's ability damage/healing/shield's. This does not fix the imbalance of specific skill's at all.

    Sorc shield's are still op
    Wrecking Blow is still op
    Snipe is still op
    Surprise Attack is still op
    Breath of life is still op
    Leap is still op
    Etc

    Instead of just tweaking certain ability's specifically there would of been no point in adjusting battle level at all. More skill's would of been used instead because the one's above would of been just as average.

    We need a dedicated pvp team tweaking the percentage's of all skill's.

    Will Flurry ever make a comeback in pvp?

    One example of a great skill that is in need of some huge adjustment's but has been ignored over and over. The maelstrom one hand weapon's show this. Instead of doing something to make the specific skill better, it is ignored and now increases follow up DoT skill's. Why can't Flurry become useful? Was Flurry once op? I play console so im not sure how it was pre 1.6.

    Edited by GreenSoup2HoT on December 14, 2015 2:33AM
    PS4 NA DC
  • Vangy
    Vangy
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    Has no one her ever seen a small group of 4 vamps streak/ambush in and batswarm 20+ people to insta death? Vamps are good when used correctly. They are the one of the only builds which have the capability to wipe zergs in small numbers.... Of course the trade off is getting stealth ganked.. So for those whining about vamps being squishy go pvp in azura every night. I guarantee you will sooner or later see a bunch of coordinated ep vamp toons balling and batswarming things to oblivion.

    Also vamps are absurdly strong in the right builds for pve.
    (2)V16 Dk- stam dps/stam tank/mag dps
    (2)V16 Sorc- mag dps/stam dps
    (2)V16 nb- stam dps/mag dps
    (1)v16 temp- mag tank/mag dps
    CP: 610 and counting

    PAWS (Positively Against Wrip-off Stuff) - Say No to Crown Crates! Viva la revolutionz
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