Animation cancelling - a skill to learn - confirmed it is not an exploit and can be used

altemriel · December 2015

Hallo guys,

I just found this out lately and wanted to share. I know many people complain about it. But as one of the devs confirmed it is not an exploit, but rather an unintended mechanics, it would be good to learn to maximize our dps.

Here Jessica Folsom confirmed it is not forbidden - no ban after using it:
http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/1824689/#Comment_1824689

To be 100 % sure it is legit, could you please @ZOS_JessicaFolsom confirm that?

Here is a guide from @Alcast about how to do it:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ZYoEztDilE

@ZOS_GinaBruno ?

altemriel · December 2015

http://deltiasgaming.com/2014/12/23/interview-zenimax-patch-1-6/

40:45 Question from Deltia: Is it [animation canceling or weaving] intended or are you looking at removing it?

Answer: Animination canceling is a consequence of trying to get our abilities to feel incredible reactive like you can use them whenever you want. We never want you to feel like I’m trying to press this ability but I can’t. So that allows some highly skilled players to be able press abilities faster than other players and know exactly the millisecond they can press the next ability and they are playing at a really highly efficient rate. We don’t necessarily want to change the game that players are use to and players enjoy. So players can feel like I’m really good at this system and I can really min max it. But we do want to add some opportunities for players that maybe don’t enjoy that or aren’t as great at hitting the ability at the right time or have high latency [lag] so they can be successful. So we’ve been looking at builds that you can build where if you’re in a high latency environment, animation canceling isn’t that important to you. Or you’re getting your primary DPS not from just weaving in those light attacks but from your abilities and sort of how you’re using your ability or the order you’re using your abilities not necessarily how fast you’re using them.

Alcast · December 2015

Animation canceling cannot be removed, they would have to change the whole system (develope new code) and that is not going to happen. And banning all those souls would result in a 99% player loss, you are basically doing it even if you do not know it, just less good than others.

It is annoying, but if you want to be top you HAVE TO learn it. There is no way around it

dodgehopper_ESO · December 2015

The way animation cancelling works also disadvantages many builds of Templar specifically, although it does cause flaws with other certain class abilities as well. Templar is just filled to the brim with abilities that are channeled, long cast and with built in pauses.

Instant · December 2015

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

The way animation cancelling works also disadvantages many builds of Templar specifically, although it does cause flaws with other certain class abilities as well. Templar is just filled to the brim with abilities that are channeled, long cast and with built in pauses.

Imo that's not true. ZOS just has to balance skills with animation cancelling in mind.

Minno · December 2015

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

The way animation cancelling works also disadvantages many builds of Templar specifically, although it does cause flaws with other certain class abilities as well. Templar is just filled to the brim with abilities that are channeled, long cast and with built in pauses.

Correct. ZOS needs to gauge if removing animation cancel would take more work or reworking all classes to make it work fairly.

With that said, best video I know comes from Lefty Lucy via his YouTube channel. He also has a series of videos on pvp basics.

http://youtu.be/BLZzGoPp9Ug

Jura23 · December 2015

Good thing which Alcast pointed out in his video is the necessity to change keybinds to make animation cancelling more comfortable. The default keybinds are pretty useless for animation cancelling, especially bash and swap.

raasdal · December 2015

Old news. But yes. IMO Animation Cancelling is what makes this game skill based. Yes yes, you can macro. But without AC this game's combat would be subpar. So i am happy to live with a few cheaters, in order to play a game that has a dynamic, skillbased, combo-like combatsystem - as opposed to "click that button and wait 2 seconds, then click that button".

Forestd16b14_ESO · December 2015

So many people trying to convince players that it isn't bad. No it is a broken mechanic a exploit what ever you wanna call it it is broken and needs to be removed from the game period. A company shouldn't let broken things like this exist other wise it leads to players abusing and gaining unfair advantages over other players and causing more problems from balancing issues to players just quieting cause the company it taking no actions against the players abusing the glitch or exploit or what ever it's called.

Animation cancellation needs to be fixed and removed from the game there is literally no arguing about it any for it are the exploiters who want to keep there unfair advantage over the players who are trying to play the game right.

Instant · December 2015

Forestd16b14_ESO wrote: »

So many people trying to convince players that it isn't bad. No it is a broken mechanic a exploit what ever you wanna call it it is broken and needs to be removed from the game period. A company shouldn't let broken things like this exist other wise it leads to players abusing and gaining unfair advantages over other players and causing more problems from balancing issues to players just quieting cause the company it taking no actions against the players abusing the glitch or exploit or what ever it's called.

Animation cancellation needs to be fixed and removed from the game there is literally no arguing about it any for it are the exploiters who want to keep there unfair advantage over the players who are trying to play the game right.

TLDR: I don't like animation cancelling therefore it needs to go. Obviously i need no other reason.

Jura23 · December 2015

They should definitely put ingame a proper tutorial though.

havok561 · December 2015

Didn't people leave DCUO because of that? I never played DCUO but was told by a friend it died because of it.

Waffennacht · December 2015

AC has been around since beginning, at this point I really doubt it'll "kill" eso.

Its really rather simple, though I do agree its kinda sad not seeing the animations as they are very well done.

Once I learned the dif between weaving and AC it was easy to learn

Shunravi · December 2015

havok561 wrote: »

Didn't people leave DCUO because of that? I never played DCUO but was told by a friend it died because of it.

It died when they made moves to get rid of it.

Shunravi · December 2015

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ThZtwhYkKSs

JMadFour · December 2015

there needs to be a tutorial in the game somewhere to teach people how to cast 4 spells at the exact same time through animation canceling.

it also needs to explain and stress the importance of the fact that most players do it, that it is a perfectly legal and valid thing to do, and that is the reason that you die instantly in Cyrodiil from attacks that you cannot see.

SemiD4rkness · December 2015

I don't like it, id love combat to be a little more strategic rathet than the fast finger wars. But it's part of the game as it seem so I better master it.

dday3six · December 2015

Forestd16b14_ESO wrote: »

So many people trying to convince players that it isn't bad. No it is a broken mechanic a exploit what ever you wanna call it it is broken and needs to be removed from the game period. A company shouldn't let broken things like this exist other wise it leads to players abusing and gaining unfair advantages over other players and causing more problems from balancing issues to players just quieting cause the company it taking no actions against the players abusing the glitch or exploit or what ever it's called.

Animation cancellation needs to be fixed and removed from the game there is literally no arguing about it any for it are the exploiters who want to keep there unfair advantage over the players who are trying to play the game right.

Do you know why players are able to animation cancel?

It's so players can block, dodge, and weapon swap interactively. The secondary effect is animation cancels for skills and basic attacks. However one cannot be removed without the other. I'm sure you'd love the game without blocking, dodging, and weapon swapping. Am I right?

Steel_Brightblade · December 2015

Personally, I don't like AC as it means you can't see what's coming and and so can't choose the right action to overcome it, if I get blasted to death by a spell fine but I want to see the blast not just randomly die then read how it happened after the fact.

altemriel · December 2015

Forestd16b14_ESO wrote: »

So many people trying to convince players that it isn't bad. No it is a broken mechanic a exploit what ever you wanna call it it is broken and needs to be removed from the game period. A company shouldn't let broken things like this exist other wise it leads to players abusing and gaining unfair advantages over other players and causing more problems from balancing issues to players just quieting cause the company it taking no actions against the players abusing the glitch or exploit or what ever it's called.

Animation cancellation needs to be fixed and removed from the game there is literally no arguing about it any for it are the exploiters who want to keep there unfair advantage over the players who are trying to play the game right.

sorry, but you did not get the point, animation cancelling is skill, where you are able to use your skills and attacks more rapidly. anyone can do it, any character with any class and any skill, so if you learn it, you get a good advantage in the fights. so why do you call it exploit and why do you insist on removing it. I do not understand.

altemriel · December 2015

SemiD4rkness wrote: »

I don't like it, id love combat to be a little more strategic rathet than the fast finger wars. But it's part of the game as it seem so I better master it.

well, but it was like that in real life melee combats too, the faster and preciser warrior always won, you know

similar to this guy, do you think you would see his sword swing with that speed that he is doing it? And that is a nowadays samurai, I guess that the medieval ones and the ones in Tamriel were even better than that.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_h9jrRTzlIY

altemriel · December 2015

Steel_Brightblade wrote: »

Personally, I don't like AC as it means you can't see what's coming and and so can't choose the right action to overcome it, if I get blasted to death by a spell fine but I want to see the blast not just randomly die then read how it happened after the fact.

yes but what would it help you if you would know that for example a wrecking blow from a dragon knight is comming at you? you would have to roll dodge or cast a shield or similar thing. the animation is not totally cancelled - for example for wrecking blow, maybe only a half of the animation cancels, you still see the DK to lift his sword up above his head and then it cancells. so you still are able to react, but you have to be faster than the attacker.
and if you are going into fight without buffs or/and shield already up, then it is your disadvantage. other thing is surprise attack. but there, as always, as in real life melee fights - the faster and preciser always won.

RinaldoGandolphi · December 2015

As i said in your other thread.

AC gives players with a lower ping a far too big of an advantage against players with a higher ping.

Using my 60 ping vs 120 ping example, a 60 ping user with AC against a 120 ping user, that 120 ping user might as well have a 180 ping that's how much of a disadvantage he is put against with AC in its current form. There is no way to shake this as fair, this is as far as Ball groups getting a 50% damage reduction because they are protected by an AOE cap.

Look, I don't want Animation canceling gone altogether, I would however like to see AC slowed down a bit so maybe it takes 1 whole sec to rip off 3 attacks instead of 0.4 secs...I think that's a fair middle ground as over half this games population don't have a ping below 100, they shouldn't be ridiculously disadvantaged because of it, if you have a ping below 100 that's a huge advantage it itself, I think having the ability to rip off 3 attacks in 0.4 Secs is a bit much when you have a 50% lower ping advantage already, I think slowing AC down a bit is a fair middle road, no one wants its gone completely, atleast I know I don't.

Shunravi · December 2015

RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »

As i said in your other thread.

AC gives players with a lower ping a far too big of an advantage against players with a higher ping.

Using my 60 ping vs 120 ping example, a 60 ping user with AC against a 120 ping user, that 120 ping user might as well have a 180 ping that's how much of a disadvantage he is put against with AC in its current form. There is no way to shake this as fair, this is as far as Ball groups getting a 50% damage reduction because they are protected by an AOE cap.

Look, I don't want Animation canceling gone altogether, I would however like to see AC slowed down a bit so maybe it takes 1 whole sec to rip off 3 attacks instead of 0.4 secs...I think that's a fair middle ground as over half this games population don't have a ping below 100, they shouldn't be ridiculously disadvantaged because of it, if you have a ping below 100 that's a huge advantage it itself, I think having the ability to rip off 3 attacks in 0.4 Secs is a bit much when you have a 50% lower ping advantage already, I think slowing AC down a bit is a fair middle road, no one wants its gone completely, atleast I know I don't.

I often play with 200+ ping. I can still cancel.

Ezareth · December 2015

JMadFour wrote: »

there needs to be a tutorial in the game somewhere to teach people how to cast 4 spells at the exact same time through animation canceling.

it also needs to explain and stress the importance of the fact that most players do it, that it is a perfectly legal and valid thing to do, and that is the reason that you die instantly in Cyrodiil from attacks that you cannot see.

SemiD4rkness wrote: »

I don't like it, id love combat to be a little more strategic rathet than the fast finger wars. But it's part of the game as it seem so I better master it.

It's really not something that requires "fast" fingers at all as you coordinate a mouse action with a keyboard action. It's just a matter of memorizing certain timing patterns. I used to be absolutely terrible at animation cancelling and have only just recently perfected it while running vMSA to increase my DPS.

Steel_Brightblade wrote: »

Personally, I don't like AC as it means you can't see what's coming and and so can't choose the right action to overcome it, if I get blasted to death by a spell fine but I want to see the blast not just randomly die then read how it happened after the fact.

There are no spells that you animation cancel that hide the actual animations so you're unaware of them. Crushing shock example is the most heavily cancelled ability. The weave you use on crushing shock is light attack animation cancel Crushing Shock so you see the entire crushing shock animation.

I 90% of players that talking about animation cancelling think it is some kind of crazy thing that people do which gives them some sort of unfair advantage. It isn't that at all.

CavalierPrime · December 2015

Im a mag dk. Kind of sad that Im finding my destro staff bar with Force Pulse to be better than sword and shield with Invasion and Flame Lash only because I can animation cancel better with my staff. So people in pvp are seeing me using staff and then getting surprise blown out by my Dragon Fire Scales. Unintended benefit.

RinaldoGandolphi · December 2015

Shunravi wrote: »

RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »

As i said in your other thread.

AC gives players with a lower ping a far too big of an advantage against players with a higher ping.

Using my 60 ping vs 120 ping example, a 60 ping user with AC against a 120 ping user, that 120 ping user might as well have a 180 ping that's how much of a disadvantage he is put against with AC in its current form. There is no way to shake this as fair, this is as far as Ball groups getting a 50% damage reduction because they are protected by an AOE cap.

Look, I don't want Animation canceling gone altogether, I would however like to see AC slowed down a bit so maybe it takes 1 whole sec to rip off 3 attacks instead of 0.4 secs...I think that's a fair middle ground as over half this games population don't have a ping below 100, they shouldn't be ridiculously disadvantaged because of it, if you have a ping below 100 that's a huge advantage it itself, I think having the ability to rip off 3 attacks in 0.4 Secs is a bit much when you have a 50% lower ping advantage already, I think slowing AC down a bit is a fair middle road, no one wants its gone completely, atleast I know I don't.

I often play with 200+ ping. I can still cancel.

You missed the point entirely, it has nothing to do with canceling. What it has to do with is having 50% less latency + The ability to cancel your animations this gives you an absurd advantage over someone with a higher ping then you because your "ahead" of the action, you see things on your screen sooner then he does already, being able to cancel in such a matter just adds insult to injury, it has nothing do with the canceling itself especially in PVE. The AC is just an indirect advantage that hurts players with higher pings disproportionaly in comparison to to players with lower ping.

if two players of equal skill with a 60 ping fight each other, AC is a non issue because neither one of them are behind the action, however when someone has literally 50% less latency you do and is AC you will never win that fight, you will lose 100% of the time every single time to an equally skilled player...if AC wasn't as it is right now, you would have "a chance" maybe only a 25% chance but you would still have a chance...between 2 equally skilled players, AC + higher ping = zero chance of you winning period.

I just want to state, I don't want AC removed from the game, i just want it slightly tweaked, you should still be able to do it to some degree.

We all AC here to some degree because the game currently requires us to do so. At this point though, it really don't matter to me if they change anything or not as it won't relaly matter with the current latency spikes going on in th game the last few months...AC is the least of our issues right now

Shunravi · December 2015

RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »

Shunravi wrote: »

RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »

As i said in your other thread.

AC gives players with a lower ping a far too big of an advantage against players with a higher ping.

Using my 60 ping vs 120 ping example, a 60 ping user with AC against a 120 ping user, that 120 ping user might as well have a 180 ping that's how much of a disadvantage he is put against with AC in its current form. There is no way to shake this as fair, this is as far as Ball groups getting a 50% damage reduction because they are protected by an AOE cap.

Look, I don't want Animation canceling gone altogether, I would however like to see AC slowed down a bit so maybe it takes 1 whole sec to rip off 3 attacks instead of 0.4 secs...I think that's a fair middle ground as over half this games population don't have a ping below 100, they shouldn't be ridiculously disadvantaged because of it, if you have a ping below 100 that's a huge advantage it itself, I think having the ability to rip off 3 attacks in 0.4 Secs is a bit much when you have a 50% lower ping advantage already, I think slowing AC down a bit is a fair middle road, no one wants its gone completely, atleast I know I don't.

I often play with 200+ ping. I can still cancel.

You missed the point entirely, it has nothing to do with canceling. What it has to do with is having 50% less latency + The ability to cancel your animations this gives you an absurd advantage over someone with a higher ping then you because your "ahead" of the action, you see things on your screen sooner then he does already, being able to cancel in such a matter just adds insult to injury, it has nothing do with the canceling itself especially in PVE. The AC is just an indirect advantage that hurts players with higher pings disproportionaly in comparison to to players with lower ping.

if two players of equal skill with a 60 ping fight each other, AC is a non issue because neither one of them are behind the action, however when someone has literally 50% less latency you do and is AC you will never win that fight, you will lose 100% of the time every single time to an equally skilled player...if AC wasn't as it is right now, you would have "a chance" maybe only a 25% chance but you would still have a chance...between 2 equally skilled players, AC + higher ping = zero chance of you winning period.

I just want to state, I don't want AC removed from the game, i just want it slightly tweaked, you should still be able to do it to some degree.

We all AC here to some degree because the game currently requires us to do so. At this point though, it really don't matter to me if they change anything or not as it won't relaly matter with the current latency spikes going on in th game the last few months...AC is the least of our issues right now

It gives me far more of a chance than if we both didnt have it.

(Im a bit amused you responded)

DHale · December 2015

It's not going away and it's not going to change. Quit qq ing there is tons of other thing to grief about. L2AC.

FENGRUSH · December 2015

Ezareth wrote: »

JMadFour

there needs to be a tutorial in the game somewhere to teach people how to cast 4 spells at the exact same time through animation canceling.

it also needs to explain and stress the importance of the fact that most players do it, that it is a perfectly legal and valid thing to do, and that is the reason that you die instantly in Cyrodiil from attacks that you cannot see.

lol

Digital_Bandit · December 2015

At first I was against it. But, I've adapted and realized it does indeed take some timing and (practice) to become effective with it. It makes for a bit more dynamic game play offensively, and provokes a bit more preemptive thought defensively.