zornyan wrote: »

It's really all we have for pvp, sweeps is bugged, misses most of the time and doesn't work on shields, javelin is a Damm expensive skill and does lackluster damage, blazing people just walk out of...

I mostly gave up PVPing with my Templar. I rush into battle, and no matter what spear skill I use, my spear gets stuck out and I can't attack. It happens like... 1 out of 5 times, and has for months. =/

Solariken wrote: »

I agree with the premise that Templars are the weakest class overall. ZOS made a lot of design decisions that I strongly disagree with and the Templar meta has suffered considerably. ZOS opted for a pretty rigid class system to launch with that conforms too much to traditional MMO gameplay; it feels very weak and cookie-cutter to me.

The skill line system is really nice and they should have just stuck with this system for creating classes in general terms. This would have allowed them to use skill lines like Alteration, Illusion, Restoration, etc. This way anyone who wants to fill a particular role can build for it at the expense of other things.

The class system is really lame and outdated. ZOS did a lot of things right, but this is one area where I feel they fell flat on their faces.

Would be cool if you could just pick 3 class skill lines at char creation out of 12 available.

SemiD4rkness wrote: »

Nifty2g wrote: »

Vatter wrote: »

UrQuan wrote: »

Vatter wrote: »

Wanted to stop by and see the state of the game. Funny how nothing has changed.

Well last time you were here you called the guy who used a templar to get the world best score on VetDSA "a true troll who has never played a templar". And now that guy seems to be doing pretty damn well on the VetMSA leaderboards with his templar. Which is weird for "a true troll who has never played a templar". I mean, I would have thought that maybe you'd have to play a templar to get on the templar leaderboards, but what do I know? So perhaps it's your attitude that should have changed rather than the state of the game?

ah yes I remember. He tried to post some screen shots on the pts thread of this topic. I really don't have the energy to lay into you right now. Heres the thread where he is shown how "good" he is.
http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/209652/why-templar-is-the-worst-designed-class-in-eso-long#latest

All I see in that thread is me explaining why Puncturing Sweeps is a good skill cause of the knock back and DPS boost you get from it procing exploiter.

No changes have been made to Templar because there is nothing wrong with it. Maybe Blazing Shield could do with a buff and a damage reduction. Templars are the most versatile class in ESO, you can do whatever you like to with the class, Tank, Heal, Stamina DPS, Magicka DPS it's your choice.

As for VMA I haven't spent much time in there not as much as I should be if I want to go for #1 but because you said Templars have the lowest DPS here is a gift.

Vatter wrote: »

Wanted to stop by and see the state of the game. Funny how nothing has changed.

A lot does change in actually, players progress, but some dont

madcuzbad

Still worse dps than the other 3 classes.

Is that a joke?

[Moderator Note: Edited quote to match moderated version]

After long term PvP with Sorcerer and a little bit of NB, i have now turned to my templar. A bit of PvE but primarily PvP.
I must ask this... How and why do people find templars underpowered? My personal experience first-hand leads me to believe the opposite. Only class giving me a hard time is a magicka Nightblade, but only due to the constant cloaking, but if i am close enough i don't let him cloak as my Sweep interrupts any attempt at cloaking as i am upclose in his face not giving any quarter.
Sorcerers? Having a sorc myself i know all their weaknesses and memorized almost any setups, rotations and know the best counters. By speccing all out magicka damage, my Jesus beam hits so hard it goes through repeatedly stacked shields and even healing ward. Makes them panic, spam shields, and jesus beam eats them away and he can't receive any heals from the ward. The trick is to burn their stamina out first and foremost with toppling charge and total dark, after the 3 CC's it's easy meat.
I can honestly say, i am enjoying my Magicka Templar much more than i did with my sorcerer.. Haven't touched the poor guy for weeks now.
I can see why people would assume templars are weak, when i meet other magicka templars with even decent pvp rank, well.. I haven't met one who hasn't died by my hand, so does that mean templars are weak? "Oh that guy just beat me so fast, but of course he is playing a EZMODE class called templ.... Oh wait..." More like a l2p issue to me.

I do however have some concerns about skill bugs, such as toppling charge often not working, heals being unresponsive at times, but that is not a inherent issue with the class itself, bugs are just bugs.

When you successfully do your first 1 vs 5 encounter on a templar, i don't think you will be calling them weak anymore...
Seen some templars singlehandedly wreck small raids, apart from a sorcerer or a emperor, no other classes can do that. NB lacks sustain and utility, DK lacks DPS.

I feel way stronger on my templar than on my DK in magicka or stamina. Just never been into the clerics/paladins as much as warriors or else i'd keep up with my templar. Dk is closest to a warrior in this game so i'm stuck.

IMO the biggest problem with Templars is all down to Champion Points. Before them, you could switch out gear for healing, damage and tanking and be effective with them. Now you have to specialize in 1 specific area or you pretty much suck. You can't be a main healer with all your points into damage and vice versa.

I'm sorry to say but I don't think we'll ever really have any class balance between any characters while there's Champion Points. They should have made CP for game bonuses like refining, gathering or things related to that. Not anything related to damage or character strength. It creates too big of a gap between players, even with the CP maxes.

Robbmrp wrote: »

IMO the biggest problem with Templars is all down to Champion Points. Before them, you could switch out gear for healing, damage and tanking and be effective with them. Now you have to specialize in 1 specific area or you pretty much suck. You can't be a main healer with all your points into damage and vice versa.

I'm sorry to say but I don't think we'll ever really have any class balance between any characters while there's Champion Points. They should have made CP for game bonuses like refining, gathering or things related to that. Not anything related to damage or character strength. It creates too big of a gap between players, even with the CP maxes.

As someone who uses gear & ability bar swapping to switch his Templar between a healer setup, a DPS setup, and a tank setup depending on what is needed, I disagree to an extent. For a stamina Templar, I would agree with you. It isn't going to work.

For a magicka Templar, though, it works. Even while tanking I rely more on magicka than stamina, so I put my CPs into areas that are universally useful for magicka. Most of the places you can put CPs in the Warrior constellations are fairly universally useful at keeping you alive, regardless of which role you're doing, so it almost doesn't matter which ones you pick there. In the Mage, everything under the Apprentice is good, but especially increase spell crit. Under the Thief you want to focus on Magician under the Tower, and Arcanist under the Lover.

Of course, part of what makes it work is the fact that as a magicka Templar you can always provide support by having some heals handy you can throw out there when needed. No matter what role I'm doing, I've always got Breath of Life on one bar just in case. If I'm healing then it's my "oh crap" heal to go with my other heals/wards. If I'm DPSing I'm mostly healing myself as I go thanks to Puncturing Sweep, so it's just in case someone I'm with needs heals and the healer is occupied (or dead, or whatever). If I'm tanking I almost never end up needing it, but again it's mostly in case the healer is occupied or dead.

Is my setup the best possible for any of those 3 roles? No, probably not. I could definitely optimize it more for one role if I wanted to, while the other 2 roles would suffer. It is totally viable for all 3 roles, though, and I'd say it's actually pretty damn strong for all of them. Having that degree of flexibility is fantastic for group dungeons in particular though. Being able to tank for the entire dungeon and then switch to ranged DPS for the final fight (I'm looking at you Engine Guardian) is awesome.

Robbmrp wrote: »

UrQuan wrote: »

Robbmrp wrote: »

IMO the biggest problem with Templars is all down to Champion Points. Before them, you could switch out gear for healing, damage and tanking and be effective with them. Now you have to specialize in 1 specific area or you pretty much suck. You can't be a main healer with all your points into damage and vice versa.

I'm sorry to say but I don't think we'll ever really have any class balance between any characters while there's Champion Points. They should have made CP for game bonuses like refining, gathering or things related to that. Not anything related to damage or character strength. It creates too big of a gap between players, even with the CP maxes.

As someone who uses gear & ability bar swapping to switch his Templar between a healer setup, a DPS setup, and a tank setup depending on what is needed, I disagree to an extent. For a stamina Templar, I would agree with you. It isn't going to work.

For a magicka Templar, though, it works. Even while tanking I rely more on magicka than stamina, so I put my CPs into areas that are universally useful for magicka. Most of the places you can put CPs in the Warrior constellations are fairly universally useful at keeping you alive, regardless of which role you're doing, so it almost doesn't matter which ones you pick there. In the Mage, everything under the Apprentice is good, but especially increase spell crit. Under the Thief you want to focus on Magician under the Tower, and Arcanist under the Lover.

Of course, part of what makes it work is the fact that as a magicka Templar you can always provide support by having some heals handy you can throw out there when needed. No matter what role I'm doing, I've always got Breath of Life on one bar just in case. If I'm healing then it's my "oh crap" heal to go with my other heals/wards. If I'm DPSing I'm mostly healing myself as I go thanks to Puncturing Sweep, so it's just in case someone I'm with needs heals and the healer is occupied (or dead, or whatever). If I'm tanking I almost never end up needing it, but again it's mostly in case the healer is occupied or dead.

Is my setup the best possible for any of those 3 roles? No, probably not. I could definitely optimize it more for one role if I wanted to, while the other 2 roles would suffer. It is totally viable for all 3 roles, though, and I'd say it's actually pretty damn strong for all of them. Having that degree of flexibility is fantastic for group dungeons in particular though. Being able to tank for the entire dungeon and then switch to ranged DPS for the final fight (I'm looking at you Engine Guardian) is awesome.

Well said. How much CP do you have to spend? I'm around 270 right now. One of the things that sucks is with the 50% healing reduction in Cyrodil, I have Mage points split between Thermaturge and Blessed. Are you split like that also or all in one or the other? Do you PVP with that build also, or just PVE? I'm trying to gauge how your setup as I could always use some pointers

I'm at a little over 300 CP. I primarily PVE, but I've been dabbling in a little PVP recently (partly due to Imperial City - where I've had to step up my DPS game due to the difficulty of soloing groups of the mobs while trying to avoid gankers, and partly thanks to a PVP guild I've joined that I've done a few runs with where they've been kind enough to help me learn the ins and outs of capturing/defending keeps/resources). In PVP all I really do is DPS while using off-heals to support anyone I'm running with (and doing some siege - I've been really enjoying setting up a ballista or two, or a trebuchet, and going to town). So far it has worked out for me reasonably well, but I'm far from a PVP expert.

I can't check my exact CP setup at the moment (I'm at work), but I know that I've definitely got some points in Thaumaturge (partly because it's pretty universally useful for a magicka templar, and partly because I wanted to unlock Opportunist for when I'm tanking - because I interrupt a ton when I'm tanking, so it's useful), and I've definitely got some points in Blessed (again, universally useful for a magicka templar, because even if you're not the healer it's great to have some decent off-heals), but I'm not sure exactly how many I've got in each.

Edit: it's probably worth noting that, with the exception of a Molag Kena shoulder, I'm still using VR14 gear for my DPS and healer setups, while my tanking gear is now upgraded to be entirely VR16 (although the exact gear setup may still change, as I'm currently running a separate monster shoulder and helm to get a health boost from each, but I may switch that out for a 2-piece Engine Guardian - I haven't decided).

timidobserver wrote: »

I am pretty happy with Templar. We have some really strong skills like puncturing sweep/biting jabs or breath or life, but many of our other skills/morphs have very limited usefulness. I'd like to see some of our less appealing skills and morphs cleaned up and made more competitive.

Examples of unappealing skills: radial sweep, piercing javelin, solar flare, backlash, eclipse, healing ritual,

Examples of unappealing morphs: radiant aura, restoring focus, honor the dead, explosive charge, extended ritual.

The Empowering Sweep morph of Radial Sweep is great for tanking - particularly when there are a lot of adds on you. The low ultimate cost and damage reduction make it very useful. I'll usually build up my ultimate prior to a boss fight and drop a Solar Prison on the boss and any adds nearby at the start of the fight, and then use Empowering Sweep as often as I can built the ultimate for it throughout the rest of the fight. The base skill and the Crescent Sweep morph are pretty useless for just about all situations IMO.

The Solar Barrage morph of Solar Flare is essential to my DPS setup, as my typical rotation is to throw out Reflective Light on the way in (doing damage, applying a small DoT, snaring, and increasing my spell crit), pop a Solar Barrage just as I close into range (doing some damage with a decent radius, and giving me Empower to increase damage of my next attack by 20%), use Elemental Ring (smaller radius than Solar Barrage, but the damage from it is increased by the Barrage and it applies a DoT), and then start using Puncturing Sweep - either continuing with spamming Puncturing Sweep, or repeating the rotation as needed. I also like to pop it immediately prior to dropping a Shooting Star.

The Dark Flare morph of it is great for healers as a support skill thanks to the debuff, but as I use the Solar Barrage morph, I can't use it for that. If your healer has it for fights like Bogdan, though, it's fantastic.

The other ones that you mention are ones that I rarely use, so I won't really talk about them, as I'm on the fence about them myself.

UrQuan wrote: »

timidobserver wrote: »

I am pretty happy with Templar. We have some really strong skills like puncturing sweep/biting jabs or breath or life, but many of our other skills/morphs have very limited usefulness. I'd like to see some of our less appealing skills and morphs cleaned up and made more competitive.

Examples of unappealing skills: radial sweep, piercing javelin, solar flare, backlash, eclipse, healing ritual,

Examples of unappealing morphs: radiant aura, restoring focus, honor the dead, explosive charge, extended ritual.

The Empowering Sweep morph of Radial Sweep is great for tanking - particularly when there are a lot of adds on you. The low ultimate cost and damage reduction make it very useful. I'll usually build up my ultimate prior to a boss fight and drop a Solar Prison on the boss and any adds nearby at the start of the fight, and then use Empowering Sweep as often as I can built the ultimate for it throughout the rest of the fight. The base skill and the Crescent Sweep morph are pretty useless for just about all situations IMO.

The Solar Barrage morph of Solar Flare is essential to my DPS setup, as my typical rotation is to throw out Reflective Light on the way in (doing damage, applying a small DoT, snaring, and increasing my spell crit), pop a Solar Barrage just as I close into range (doing some damage with a decent radius, and giving me Empower to increase damage of my next attack by 20%), use Elemental Ring (smaller radius than Solar Barrage, but the damage from it is increased by the Barrage and it applies a DoT), and then start using Puncturing Sweep - either continuing with spamming Puncturing Sweep, or repeating the rotation as needed. I also like to pop it immediately prior to dropping a Shooting Star.

The Dark Flare morph of it is great for healers as a support skill thanks to the debuff, but as I use the Solar Barrage morph, I can't use it for that. If your healer has it for fights like Bogdan, though, it's fantastic.

The other ones that you mention are ones that I rarely use, so I won't really talk about them, as I'm on the fence about them myself.

Yup, empowering sweep is useful for some tank builds. I'd like to see Crescent sweep be made more useful for DPS and empowering sweep made a bit more useful for tanks.

Interesting dps rotation, though I still think the skill(both morphs) could use some improvement. Dark Flare, in particular, is pretty weak in most situations.

Vatter wrote: »

Nifty2g wrote: »

lol why did you remake this topic from pts?
all i'm reading is l2p issues

spoken like a true troll who has never played a templar and does nothing but go thread to thread trying to flame for insightfuls, agrees and awesomes. kinda pathetic actually.

I moved this thread due to the update. it is no longer on pts. not sure if your as sharp as cotton or simply don't have the capacity for logical thinking.

ARE YOU KIDDING?????? Did you just say Nifty doesn't play a templar?

Oh okay then.

*Ignores rest of posts from this account ever*

Gelassenheit wrote: »

As far as magicka templar DPS, I think it's at an okay spot. I fully admit, I'm not the greatest at weaving light attacks, or keeping up on all of the timers. That being said, I can pull ~19k DPS on my more sustained build / support oriented type build, and 25k+ DPS on my more damaging build, perhaps even higher due to some new gear. I can get dark flare up to ~40k crits, perhaps even higher with TBS, or molag kena, and certainly higher with aggressive warhorn.

I certainly cannot speak to the effectiveness of stamina templar DPS.

I mainly heal on mine - tell me all your secrets!

I get avg 11-13k (no ulti no warhorn just regular single target in average group) but I could do more if I rearrange things a bit, but I have my stuff (gear, CP, mana vs regen etc) set for healing/supporting resources for others etc.

AfkNinja wrote: »

BRogueNZ wrote: »

We're ok?

Stamplar's do well dps wise, our support/heal menu is extensive (This is flat out wrong. Stamplar has no additional healing and relies on Rally/Vigor except none of our passives work on it. Stamplar has the worst self healing.)

from a pvp point of view

just some quick thoughts though

I'd rather Jabs be a single high(er) damage poke rather than what it is and there be a chance to proc something significant from sun fire. (Absolutely not, reducing the number of hits would be a huge nerf because we rely on volume of hits to proc burning light. Without burning light Jabs is worse than Wrecking Blow.)

Dark flare, I think the buff/debuff pays for the cast time, its not a dps skill imo even though it can hit for an ok amount.
Remove the empower from solar barrage but increase its AOE damage. (The issue with this skill isn't the dmg, it's the fact that in PVP unless you use it from stealth as an opener it will almost always be dodged or reflected.)

Backlash/ Eclipse.. ok for building damage against anyone who doesn't know what they have on them
i.e no one.

I'm not sure, all I know is we are strong on a lot of situations and we'd perhaps be too strong with the wrong changes.

Magicka templar doesn't need much, some minor bug fixes and passive tweaks. Stamina Templar needs a big review.

stamplars have their entire magicka resource bar with which to slot some heals. Rally and vigor are not the only heals stamplars have.