Why I don't join on the "fix the bugs" bandwagon.
For the most part, the Elder Scrolls fan base seems to be a fairly understanding group of people. But something I've noticed since the launch (or rather the beta) of TESO is a constant "fix the bugs first!" rant. Now I'm assuming all of you (or at least the large majority) who get on this ranting session have never programmed, modeled, designed, etc... a program. So something I want you all to remember before you get mad at Zenni or do the "If I ran Zenimax..." speel; fixing bugs is one of the hardest parts of making a program. I've spent hours debugging a tiny project before finding my mistake. It's really not like you have a button that finds all the runtime or logic errors. On a project the size of TESO, you and the other programmers would spend countless hours reading through every line of code, hoping that you understand exactly the way the section of code was written. Now imagine getting handed a dictionary of every work in the English language. You're told to that somewhere in there, there is a misspelled word and it's your job to find it. That in itself is rather discouraging. Now imagine that every day that you haven't found it, people starting saying that they'd do a better job at or "you just need to find the misspelled word, it's not that hard."
I'm telling you all this because I know how depressing it is to be a programmer, especially when no one appreciates the work you do. So please, please, give Zenni some grace.
~Kulaan
I'm telling you all this because I know how depressing it is to be a programmer, especially when no one appreciates the work you do. So please, please, give Zenni some grace.
~Kulaan
Though war may tear us apart, love for each other will bring us back together as an overwhelming force. ~Kulaan Doskad-Hadroz, Loredas , the 12th of Evening Star, 2E 582
7
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Jura23✭✭✭✭✭
✭I'd be happy if there were only regular bugs. But here are some issues where bug word doesn't do it justice. Basic funcionality of the game is rightfully being questioned in some areas.Georgion - Bosmer/Templar - PC/EU2 -
I'd be happy if there were only regular bugs. But here are some issues where bug word doesn't do it justice. Basic funcionality of the game is rightfully being questioned in some areas.
While I agree upon the annoyance of game breaking 'bugs', it's really not something that's avoidable. Have you ever written a story with other people? So let's say you got a group of four people writing a story. You got one to write the the first chapter, another to write the second, another to write the third, and another to write the last. That in itself isn't so bad, but imagine you all knew what the final piece was probably going to look like, and you all had to write the chapters at the same time. There are bound to be mistakes or confusion in the story. Likewise, when you have even a small amount of programmers writing a program, there are bound to logic errors or things that don't match up. You know spend a couple weeks fix the bugs... But that becomes nearly impossible once you have a few hundred programmers writing different pieces of a game. Over the past almost two years, I've seen TESO go from nearly unplayable to a place where game breaking bugs are rare.Though war may tear us apart, love for each other will bring us back together as an overwhelming force. ~Kulaan Doskad-Hadroz, Loredas , the 12th of Evening Star, 2E 5821 -
Lynnessa✭✭✭✭Would it be Elder Scrolls without bugs, though?
I have nostalgia for even the most frustrating bugs in other ES games.Edited by Lynnessa on November 14, 2015 6:37PM2 -
Would it be Elder Scrolls without bugs, though?
I have nostalgia for even the most frustrating bugs in other ES games.
Like when horses fly :PThough war may tear us apart, love for each other will bring us back together as an overwhelming force. ~Kulaan Doskad-Hadroz, Loredas , the 12th of Evening Star, 2E 5820 -
Lynnessa✭✭✭✭Kulaan_Doskad_Hadroz wrote: »I'm telling you all this because I know how depressing it is to be a programmerKulaan_Doskad_Hadroz wrote: »
Yes!
On topic for this thread... I don't feel any pity for programmers. I am biased because I work at a nursing home that has been shortstaffed for months... wish I was a programmer instead!2 -
I_killed_Vivec✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭And?
We know that people don't make mistakes on purpose, but if we don't tell them about the errors then how will they be corrected? Bugs might be inevitable, but inadequate testing isn't.
So what you are saying is "There might be problems but they are only human and didn't intend it "- unfortunately that doesn't solve any problems.
"I know how depressing it is to be a programmer, especially when no one appreciates the work you do"
Do you want to be appreciated for bugs in your code?
Do your job, get it right. Your salary is the "appreciation" - just like any other worker.
4 -
Kulaan_Doskad_Hadroz wrote: »I'm telling you all this because I know how depressing it is to be a programmerKulaan_Doskad_Hadroz wrote: »
Yes!
On topic for this thread... I don't feel any pity for programmers. I am biased because I work at a nursing home that has been shortstaffed for months... wish I was a programmer instead!
Don't get me wrong, I would rather be a programmer than a nursing assistant (Or whatever you do) any day. Being a programmer, I'm sure, is a much easier job. But back on topic, I'm simply stating a distaste for the constant "fix all the bugs now" rant that many fans seem to be having; and I'm trying to put into perspective what it would really mean to 'complete' the game.Though war may tear us apart, love for each other will bring us back together as an overwhelming force. ~Kulaan Doskad-Hadroz, Loredas , the 12th of Evening Star, 2E 5821 -
sadownik✭✭✭✭✭
✭Kulaan_Doskad_Hadroz wrote: »Kulaan_Doskad_Hadroz wrote: »I'm telling you all this because I know how depressing it is to be a programmerKulaan_Doskad_Hadroz wrote: »
Yes!
On topic for this thread... I don't feel any pity for programmers. I am biased because I work at a nursing home that has been shortstaffed for months... wish I was a programmer instead!
Don't get me wrong, I would rather be a programmer than a nursing assistant (Or whatever you do) any day. Being a programmer, I'm sure, is a much easier job. But back on topic, I'm simply stating a distaste for the constant "fix all the bugs now" rant that many fans seem to be having; and I'm trying to put into perspective what it would really mean to 'complete' the game.
"Fix this bug now" ? Mate i dont know how long you are around but there are still bugs from beta. Is 1.6 year not enough? Furthermore making MMO game, while certainly not an easy task, its surely not terra incognita. Gaming industry is highly competitive and it doesnt take a lot of effort to be able to compare other MMOs with ESO. While certainly there are worse on the market, but believe me those wont be around for long.2 -
Lynnessa✭✭✭✭@Kulaan_Doskad_Hadroz , I do agree that the tone of many forum posts is too petulant. Such is the bane of working with the public.1
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I_killed_Vivec wrote: »And?
We know that people don't make mistakes on purpose, but if we don't tell them about the errors then how will they be corrected? Bugs might be inevitable, but inadequate testing isn't.
So what you are saying is "There might be problems but they are only human and didn't intend it "- unfortunately that doesn't solve any problems.
"I know how depressing it is to be a programmer, especially when no one appreciates the work you do"
Do you want to be appreciated for bugs in your code?
Do your job, get it right. Your salary is the "appreciation" - just like any other worker.
I think you're missing the point.
I never said to not point out the bugs, that's what the bug tracker is for. What I'm saying is don't get angry at the developers because they can't find and fix every bug as soon as it's identified as a bug.
I'm currently working in retail which is very exhausting, but I love my job simply because my coworkers appreciate me. If you made something amazing and no one ever commented on it or praised you for it, you wouldn't be likely to continue making new things. Appreciation is what inspires hard work.Though war may tear us apart, love for each other will bring us back together as an overwhelming force. ~Kulaan Doskad-Hadroz, Loredas , the 12th of Evening Star, 2E 5821 -
I_killed_Vivec✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Kulaan_Doskad_Hadroz wrote: »I_killed_Vivec wrote: »And?
We know that people don't make mistakes on purpose, but if we don't tell them about the errors then how will they be corrected? Bugs might be inevitable, but inadequate testing isn't.
So what you are saying is "There might be problems but they are only human and didn't intend it "- unfortunately that doesn't solve any problems.
"I know how depressing it is to be a programmer, especially when no one appreciates the work you do"
Do you want to be appreciated for bugs in your code?
Do your job, get it right. Your salary is the "appreciation" - just like any other worker.
I think you're missing the point.
I never said to not point out the bugs, that's what the bug tracker is for. What I'm saying is don't get angry at the developers because they can't find and fix every bug as soon as it's identified as a bug.
I'm currently working in retail which is very exhausting, but I love my job simply because my coworkers appreciate me. If you made something amazing and no one ever commented on it or praised you for it, you wouldn't be likely to continue making new things. Appreciation is what inspires hard work.
No, you're missing the point. We pay money for this. That means we have every right to complain when it doesn't work properly, instead of "showing some appreciation". The appreciation we show is in hard cash - buying the game, subbing for a year while the game was debugged, continuing to sub now and paying for DLC. People aren't moaning about bugs not being fixed as soon as they are identified, people are complaining about issues that have been present for weeks if not months (such as the load screen delay). But most of all people are moaning because there is little-to-no communication.
Programmers should be professionals, not children... "Oh, well done! It doesn't work, but don't worry, you tried"
3 -
Kulaan_Doskad_Hadroz wrote: »Kulaan_Doskad_Hadroz wrote: »I'm telling you all this because I know how depressing it is to be a programmerKulaan_Doskad_Hadroz wrote: »
Yes!
On topic for this thread... I don't feel any pity for programmers. I am biased because I work at a nursing home that has been shortstaffed for months... wish I was a programmer instead!
Don't get me wrong, I would rather be a programmer than a nursing assistant (Or whatever you do) any day. Being a programmer, I'm sure, is a much easier job. But back on topic, I'm simply stating a distaste for the constant "fix all the bugs now" rant that many fans seem to be having; and I'm trying to put into perspective what it would really mean to 'complete' the game.
"Fix this bug now" ? Mate i dont know how long you are around but there are still bugs from beta. Is 1.6 year not enough? Furthermore making MMO game, while certainly not an easy task, its surely not terra incognita. Gaming industry is highly competitive and it doesnt take a lot of effort to be able to compare other MMOs with ESO. While certainly there are worse on the market, but believe me those wont be around for long.
I've been around since the third beta, so I do understand and acknowledge that there are bugs that have never been fixed. Like how horses can sprint forever. Or how the game randomly crashes. But a majority of the bugs have been removed.
TESO is a fairly new MMO on the market in comparison with other games such as WoW or Tera, which would normally make it a difficult game to become popular, but what makes TESO different is the built of follower base from Zenimax's/Bethesda's other games. I'm not really following I guess where you were trying to go with the comparing ESO to other MMOs, and thus I don't really see what that has to do with the "fix bugs" rant.Though war may tear us apart, love for each other will bring us back together as an overwhelming force. ~Kulaan Doskad-Hadroz, Loredas , the 12th of Evening Star, 2E 5820 -
sadownik✭✭✭✭✭
✭Kulaan_Doskad_Hadroz wrote: »Kulaan_Doskad_Hadroz wrote: »Kulaan_Doskad_Hadroz wrote: »I'm telling you all this because I know how depressing it is to be a programmerKulaan_Doskad_Hadroz wrote: »
Yes!
On topic for this thread... I don't feel any pity for programmers. I am biased because I work at a nursing home that has been shortstaffed for months... wish I was a programmer instead!
Don't get me wrong, I would rather be a programmer than a nursing assistant (Or whatever you do) any day. Being a programmer, I'm sure, is a much easier job. But back on topic, I'm simply stating a distaste for the constant "fix all the bugs now" rant that many fans seem to be having; and I'm trying to put into perspective what it would really mean to 'complete' the game.
"Fix this bug now" ? Mate i dont know how long you are around but there are still bugs from beta. Is 1.6 year not enough? Furthermore making MMO game, while certainly not an easy task, its surely not terra incognita. Gaming industry is highly competitive and it doesnt take a lot of effort to be able to compare other MMOs with ESO. While certainly there are worse on the market, but believe me those wont be around for long.
I've been around since the third beta, so I do understand and acknowledge that there are bugs that have never been fixed. Like how horses can sprint forever. Or how the game randomly crashes. But a majority of the bugs have been removed.
TESO is a fairly new MMO on the market in comparison with other games such as WoW or Tera, which would normally make it a difficult game to become popular, but what makes TESO different is the built of follower base from Zenimax's/Bethesda's other games. I'm not really following I guess where you were trying to go with the comparing ESO to other MMOs, and thus I don't really see what that has to do with the "fix bugs" rant.
Then i think you should try some other MMO's out there, see how regularly they can be hot fixed, see that it can be done at a much much faster ratio than we ever seen in ESO. Hell in ESO there are no hot fixes, besides the changes to grind spots and 1 or 2 other issues.1 -
I_killed_Vivec wrote: »Kulaan_Doskad_Hadroz wrote: »I_killed_Vivec wrote: »And?
We know that people don't make mistakes on purpose, but if we don't tell them about the errors then how will they be corrected? Bugs might be inevitable, but inadequate testing isn't.
So what you are saying is "There might be problems but they are only human and didn't intend it "- unfortunately that doesn't solve any problems.
"I know how depressing it is to be a programmer, especially when no one appreciates the work you do"
Do you want to be appreciated for bugs in your code?
Do your job, get it right. Your salary is the "appreciation" - just like any other worker.
I think you're missing the point.
I never said to not point out the bugs, that's what the bug tracker is for. What I'm saying is don't get angry at the developers because they can't find and fix every bug as soon as it's identified as a bug.
I'm currently working in retail which is very exhausting, but I love my job simply because my coworkers appreciate me. If you made something amazing and no one ever commented on it or praised you for it, you wouldn't be likely to continue making new things. Appreciation is what inspires hard work.
No, you're missing the point. We pay money for this. That means we have every right to complain when it doesn't work properly, instead of "showing some appreciation". The appreciation we show is in hard cash - buying the game, subbing for a year while the game was debugged, continuing to sub now and paying for DLC. People aren't moaning about bugs not being fixed as soon as they are identified, people are complaining about issues that have been present for weeks if not months (such as the load screen delay). But most of all people are moaning because there is little-to-no communication.
Programmers should be professionals, not children... "Oh, well done! It doesn't work, but don't worry, you tried"
I guess appreciation is a subjective topic. For some it's money, for others it's simply being thought highly of. Here's the thing. If you aren't happy with a product/service. Boycott it. Just simply stop supporting it.
In my opinion, there is no reason to get angry because something isn't perfect. Something you might not have noticed with the load screen 'bug', but they have been working on it. Once you enter a region, every time you teleport to a different wayshrine in that region, it almost loads instantly. A lot of the load times can be with your computer's hardware. If you have TESO installed on a solid state drive, you will have better load times.
I completely agree with your statement, "Programmers should be professionals, not children..." But in the same way, in my opinion of course, "Fans shouldn't act like spoiled children, but rather adults who have patience."
Something I'm thinking that you are misinterpreting from my responses is that I believe we should baby the developers. In no such way do I think that. Going back to my original topic, I just believe that expecting perfection is unreasonable and immature.
Though war may tear us apart, love for each other will bring us back together as an overwhelming force. ~Kulaan Doskad-Hadroz, Loredas , the 12th of Evening Star, 2E 5820 -
ThatNeonZebraAgain✭✭✭✭✭I_killed_Vivec wrote: »Kulaan_Doskad_Hadroz wrote: »I_killed_Vivec wrote: »And?
We know that people don't make mistakes on purpose, but if we don't tell them about the errors then how will they be corrected? Bugs might be inevitable, but inadequate testing isn't.
So what you are saying is "There might be problems but they are only human and didn't intend it "- unfortunately that doesn't solve any problems.
"I know how depressing it is to be a programmer, especially when no one appreciates the work you do"
Do you want to be appreciated for bugs in your code?
Do your job, get it right. Your salary is the "appreciation" - just like any other worker.
I think you're missing the point.
I never said to not point out the bugs, that's what the bug tracker is for. What I'm saying is don't get angry at the developers because they can't find and fix every bug as soon as it's identified as a bug.
I'm currently working in retail which is very exhausting, but I love my job simply because my coworkers appreciate me. If you made something amazing and no one ever commented on it or praised you for it, you wouldn't be likely to continue making new things. Appreciation is what inspires hard work.
No, you're missing the point. We pay money for this. That means we have every right to complain when it doesn't work properly, instead of "showing some appreciation". The appreciation we show is in hard cash - buying the game, subbing for a year while the game was debugged, continuing to sub now and paying for DLC. People aren't moaning about bugs not being fixed as soon as they are identified, people are complaining about issues that have been present for weeks if not months (such as the load screen delay). But most of all people are moaning because there is little-to-no communication.
Programmers should be professionals, not children... "Oh, well done! It doesn't work, but don't worry, you tried"
Ahh yes, because all that matters in work and life is the simple transaction of money. So long as workers are getting paid and producing things, who cares how they're treated am I right? They should just keep their noses down and suck it up.
Okay, sorry for the sarcasm. Bugs, especially big ones that seem to infer larger design/workflow issues, are problems and they should be reported and discussed. Nobody is debating that. What OP is arguing for is less vitriol from players against devs, and just some amount of mutual understanding of the complicated nature of being held accountable by numerous stakeholders (only one of which is players) and working on something so massive as an MMORPG. Click on my username -- I've been here for over 2 years now, so I know just as well as you the persistent issues the game endures. I'm also frustrated with lack of communication. But to me that's not enough of an excuse to be rude to people.Edited by ThatNeonZebraAgain on November 14, 2015 7:30PMGore-of-the-Forest Argonian Nightblade
Wode Earthrender Breton Dragonknight
Ceol the Last Baron Redguard Dragonknight
Wayra High Elf Sorceress
Erebain Salothran Dark Elf Templar
Rituals-of-the-Forest Argonian Warden1 -
ThatNeonZebraAgain wrote: »I_killed_Vivec wrote: »Kulaan_Doskad_Hadroz wrote: »I_killed_Vivec wrote: »And?
We know that people don't make mistakes on purpose, but if we don't tell them about the errors then how will they be corrected? Bugs might be inevitable, but inadequate testing isn't.
So what you are saying is "There might be problems but they are only human and didn't intend it "- unfortunately that doesn't solve any problems.
"I know how depressing it is to be a programmer, especially when no one appreciates the work you do"
Do you want to be appreciated for bugs in your code?
Do your job, get it right. Your salary is the "appreciation" - just like any other worker.
I think you're missing the point.
I never said to not point out the bugs, that's what the bug tracker is for. What I'm saying is don't get angry at the developers because they can't find and fix every bug as soon as it's identified as a bug.
I'm currently working in retail which is very exhausting, but I love my job simply because my coworkers appreciate me. If you made something amazing and no one ever commented on it or praised you for it, you wouldn't be likely to continue making new things. Appreciation is what inspires hard work.
No, you're missing the point. We pay money for this. That means we have every right to complain when it doesn't work properly, instead of "showing some appreciation". The appreciation we show is in hard cash - buying the game, subbing for a year while the game was debugged, continuing to sub now and paying for DLC. People aren't moaning about bugs not being fixed as soon as they are identified, people are complaining about issues that have been present for weeks if not months (such as the load screen delay). But most of all people are moaning because there is little-to-no communication.
Programmers should be professionals, not children... "Oh, well done! It doesn't work, but don't worry, you tried"
Ahh yes, because all that matters in work and life is the simple transaction of money. So long as workers are getting money and making things, who cares how they're treated am I right?
Okay, sorry for the sarcasm. Bugs, especially big ones that seem to infer larger design issues, are problems and they should be reported and discussed. Nobody is debating that. What OP is arguing for is less vitriol from players against devs, and just some amount of mutual understanding of the complicated nature of being held accountable by numerous stakeholders (only one of which is players) and working on something so massive as an MMORPG.
Exactly. I think you were able to sum it up a lot better than I was.Though war may tear us apart, love for each other will bring us back together as an overwhelming force. ~Kulaan Doskad-Hadroz, Loredas , the 12th of Evening Star, 2E 5820 -
Kulaan_Doskad_Hadroz wrote: »Kulaan_Doskad_Hadroz wrote: »Kulaan_Doskad_Hadroz wrote: »I'm telling you all this because I know how depressing it is to be a programmerKulaan_Doskad_Hadroz wrote: »
Yes!
On topic for this thread... I don't feel any pity for programmers. I am biased because I work at a nursing home that has been shortstaffed for months... wish I was a programmer instead!
Don't get me wrong, I would rather be a programmer than a nursing assistant (Or whatever you do) any day. Being a programmer, I'm sure, is a much easier job. But back on topic, I'm simply stating a distaste for the constant "fix all the bugs now" rant that many fans seem to be having; and I'm trying to put into perspective what it would really mean to 'complete' the game.
"Fix this bug now" ? Mate i dont know how long you are around but there are still bugs from beta. Is 1.6 year not enough? Furthermore making MMO game, while certainly not an easy task, its surely not terra incognita. Gaming industry is highly competitive and it doesnt take a lot of effort to be able to compare other MMOs with ESO. While certainly there are worse on the market, but believe me those wont be around for long.
I've been around since the third beta, so I do understand and acknowledge that there are bugs that have never been fixed. Like how horses can sprint forever. Or how the game randomly crashes. But a majority of the bugs have been removed.
TESO is a fairly new MMO on the market in comparison with other games such as WoW or Tera, which would normally make it a difficult game to become popular, but what makes TESO different is the built of follower base from Zenimax's/Bethesda's other games. I'm not really following I guess where you were trying to go with the comparing ESO to other MMOs, and thus I don't really see what that has to do with the "fix bugs" rant.
Then i think you should try some other MMO's out there, see how regularly they can be hot fixed, see that it can be done at a much much faster ratio than we ever seen in ESO. Hell in ESO there are no hot fixes, besides the changes to grind spots and 1 or 2 other issues.
Hahahahaha. I would if I could stand any of them for more than 20 minutes. I've tried Tera, WoW, SWTOR, Archeage, etc... but the only two I can stand are Neverwinter and The Elder Scrolls Online.Though war may tear us apart, love for each other will bring us back together as an overwhelming force. ~Kulaan Doskad-Hadroz, Loredas , the 12th of Evening Star, 2E 5820 -
Wycks✭✭✭✭The reality is to maintain a large product you need to employ and maintain a large group of developers and have the proper structures in place to do so.
ESO bit off more then they can chew with having a multi platform game and the proof is in the pudding.
The fact is there are too many bugs for a release that has had time to mature, and even worse bugs that were fixed get re-introduced back into the game. Overall with regards to something like PvP, the experience had generally been degraded over time.
The sum of all the parts of ESO... so much wasted potential on bad decisions. Much of the ill will could have been reflected if some of ZOS's upper management learned how to communicate better, but several important people ( 2 in particular) have been completely silent since release on important game mechanics, directions, bugs and all the important things.
So they continue to shed players.The numbers thing is always going to be there, but it’s more down to player skill and there are ways through ability choice to configure a group to be stronger vs. large groups of people. - BRAIN WHEELER - 2012 - LOL4 -
Scyantific✭✭✭✭✭
✭Would it be Elder Scrolls without bugs, though?
I have nostalgia for even the most frustrating bugs in other ES games.
The only reason we give core ES games a pass when it comes to bugs is because we have folks like Arthmoor who take it upon themselves to fix the bugs (even if he is a bit of an ***).
We can't do that here so we have to rely on Zenimax to do it for us.1 -
JamilaRaj✭✭✭✭✭
✭Kulaan_Doskad_Hadroz wrote: »For the most part, the Elder Scrolls fan base seems to be a fairly understanding group of people. But something I've noticed since the launch (or rather the beta) of TESO is a constant "fix the bugs first!" rant. Now I'm assuming all of you (or at least the large majority) who get on this ranting session have never programmed, modeled, designed, etc... a program. So something I want you all to remember before you get mad at Zenni or do the "If I ran Zenimax..." speel; fixing bugs is one of the hardest parts of making a program. I've spent hours debugging a tiny project before finding my mistake. It's really not like you have a button that finds all the runtime or logic errors. On a project the size of TESO, you and the other programmers would spend countless hours reading through every line of code, hoping that you understand exactly the way the section of code was written. Now imagine getting handed a dictionary of every work in the English language. You're told to that somewhere in there, there is a misspelled word and it's your job to find it. That in itself is rather discouraging. Now imagine that every day that you haven't found it, people starting saying that they'd do a better job at or "you just need to find the misspelled word, it's not that hard."
I'm telling you all this because I know how depressing it is to be a programmer, especially when no one appreciates the work you do. So please, please, give Zenni some grace.
~Kulaan
ZOS introduces new bugs with every update, some of which are also quite obvious and easily reproducible, which narrows the search substantially, yet these bugs go unfixed for weeks or months (remember The Great FPS Drop? the moment a group of players rushed a flag, FPS just died and animations stopped playing until after a resrouce flipped; just to name one that was also totally game breaking). But even that is not why ZOS is yelled at. They are yelled at because that crap is going on since launch with no sign whatsoever of them improving their ways. The company is hopeless.
On the flip side, quality of design itself declines, while P2W spreads like cancer, so their incompetence actually becomes a benefit, as they can not properly implement their sick plans (crowns on Xbox arriving already?).0 -
Yggdrasil_Gof✭✭✭I don't build cars, but I wouldn't be happy if the wheel fell off my car at 70mph. By your thinking I would have no right to complain as I don't appreciate how hard it is to build cars. I tell you I have an oil leak, and you tell me It's insignificant.
Your right to a degree people can be hard on the staff, and don't always fully understand how difficult it the task is. At the same time people deserve the product they paid for and have every right to complain when it doesn't work properly. If you don't tell them they can't fix it. If it was any other type of product there would be a recall.
You don't have to be rude, or have no callous, but there's nothing wrong with pointing out a problem.1 -
pirate3✭✭✭Kulaan_Doskad_Hadroz wrote: »fixing bugs is one of the hardest parts of making a program.
Which is precisely why your code should be covered by a full suite of automated regression tests that are executed each time a change is committed. But I'm sure granny already knows how to suck an egg, and games like this are far more complex than your average web app or business application. I don't envy the guys who work in these games and I doubt the average bug report contains much in the way of genuinely useful information.
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Vangy✭✭✭✭✭
✭Lol I get the point of this thread @OP but.... I'm an engineer who does 100s upon 100s of calculations + check over detailed equipment/building plans every day. If I operated with this mindset (that if things are hard to find thyre hard to fix and everyone should appreciate me "trying hard" etc), I'd be out of a job in about.... Maybe a week lol. Not to mention the rampant safety issues it would cause for the people using facilities designed by me...(2)V16 Dk- stam dps/stam tank/mag dps
(2)V16 Sorc- mag dps/stam dps
(2)V16 nb- stam dps/mag dps
(1)v16 temp- mag tank/mag dps
CP: 610 and counting
PAWS (Positively Against Wrip-off Stuff) - Say No to Crown Crates! Viva la revolutionz2 -
JamilaRaj✭✭✭✭✭
✭Just for the lulz: I was searching on google for a cash shop free MMORPG, in vain, needless to say, but I found an article which led me to another and finally to this little gem, where QA guy ranting about LOTRO comments on ZOS developing ESO:
For instance: after leaving Turbine the first time I went to Zenimax Online for a year. By this point (fall 2010) they had been 'developing' ESO for something like 4 or 5 years and had a projected launch date of spring of '12 (the idea being to follow up Skyrim with a big marketing campaign with WETA and then launch). But less than a year and a half from launch the game wasn't remotely near alpha state, despite having already consumed untold millions of dollars. To make a long story short, I was amazed they finished it at all. There was no hope of it being a great MMO regardless. As my friend, a ZOS producer (and a former Turbinite), commented, half the team seemed to think they were making a single player game, the other half, WoW.
EDIT: further down the thread:
I would comment that Turbine was not particularly open about it's tech even in-house. One of the things that amazed me at ZOS was QA's having access to all the same tools as the developers. We were in fact encouraged to play with them, build quest chains, mobs, skills, and everything else. And it was a great idea, too, as not only could QA precisely identify how something was broken, often we could actually fix the bugs ourselves and save the devs the time. Moreover any QA brought over to devside could be expected to already know the tools, saving weeks of training time. I imagine that paid ZOS a lot of dividends in the home stretch.Edited by JamilaRaj on November 16, 2015 12:33PM1
