Could the vestige be "immortal"?

NateAssassin · November 2015

Me and my friends spent a good few hours discussing this, and it's kind of something I'd really like to discuss here.

Due to the fact the vestige doesn't actually have a soul, and the fact it is linked to Coldharbour, and that a soul shriven could be considered Daedric, would that mean that if the vestige were to die, his/her body would just reform in Oblivion like any other Daedra?

Gidorick · November 2015

The Vestige's body reforms BEFORE it moves on to the afterlife. Every time the Vestige is slain, they do die... it's just that their soul is tied to mundus and doesn't move onto the Aetherus and is "caught" by the Wayshrines. I would think that if something could separate the Vestige from the influence of Wayshrines... they would just move onto the afterlife when they die. Like everyone else.

And by saying "like any OTHER Daedra" you put forth the insinuation that the Vestige is a Daedra... was that intentional?

deucalionsb · November 2015

In the beginning weren't we technically revenants? Seeing as we had to get our souls back and what not.

NateAssassin · November 2015

Gidorick wrote: »

The Vestige's body reforms BEFORE it moves on to the afterlife. Every time the Vestige is slain, they do die... it's just that their soul is tied to mundus and doesn't move onto the Aetherus and is "caught" by the Wayshrines. I would think that if something could separate the Vestige from the influence of Wayshrines... they would just move onto the afterlife when they die. Like everyone else.

And by saying "like any OTHER Daedra" you put forth the insinuation that the Vestige is a Daedra... was that intentional?

No, just a mistype on my part, I was trying to reference the way Dremora, and other types of Daedra reform back in Oblivion after being slain, and that maybe because of Molag having possession of your soul, and being a soul shriven would net the same properties as a vestige until they retrieve their soul again.

Shunravi · November 2015

In short, yes. That seems like a potential way for it to work

*spoilers*

Now the more complex argument is; as per http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Wayshrines the vestige, as a soul shriven, is unmoored from the mundus. In the main quest you get your soul back, but are still able to use wayshrines and fast travel. This suggests you are still 'unmoored'. What keeps the vestige in the mundus is the skyshards, bits of Aedric energy granted as a boon. This is why you picked one up in coldharbor. It was what let Akatosh pull you back and effectively remoor you.

http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:On_Soul_Shriven discusses the nature of soul shriven and how the effect of being separated from your soul makes them immortal in the mundus and can actually make the soulgem with your soul grow, which is what i belive is the explanation for the champion system after you get your soul back and start earning them...

Now, I think its appropriate to discuss soul gems and how we essentialy practice necromancy upon ourselves and *other shriven*. It is either a reconstituting of the physical form, a strengthening of the binding to mundus, or a resummoning of onesself. Or a combination. The qustion though is what happens to the vestige by the end of the interregnum? Does he/she stay in the mundus somehow? Or do the effects mooring the vestige to the mundus eventually fade ( perhaps Akatosh no longer needing you as a champion against daedric incursion?) and the vestige 'evaporates' out like a daedra would...

Shunravi · November 2015

Oops. Quoted myself.

Morozov · November 2015

Could the vestige be the Dalai Lama....keeps reincarnating after they die? However in this case the vestige is born again into their adult body....perhaps to finish some wrong that has been done to them? or finish something they had started? Could the vestige....be Gandalf?

The previous arguments say that the vestige is tied to oblivion, I would partially agree. Seeing as Crows Wood is a realm of oblivion...and when you die a wronged death in PVP you come back...to avenge your death from the murderers in Cyrodil....maybe the crows help you? Could it be, that this whole time thinking you were some soul deprived savior of Nirn......you were in fact BRANDON LEE!!!!!

NateAssassin · November 2015

Shunravi wrote: »

In short, yes. That seems like a potential way for it to work

*spoilers*

Now the more complex argument is; as per http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Wayshrines the vestige, as a soul shriven, is unmoored from the mundus. In the main quest you get your soul back, but are still able to use wayshrines and fast travel. This suggests you are still 'unmoored'. What keeps the vestige in the mundus is the skyshards, bits of Aedric energy granted as a boon. This is why you picked one up in coldharbor. It was what let Akatosh pull you back and effectively remoor you.

http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:On_Soul_Shriven discusses the nature of soul shriven and how the effect of being separated from your soul makes them immortal in the mundus and can actually make the soulgem with your soul grow, which is what i belive is the explanation for the champion system after you get your soul back and start earning them...

Now, I think its appropriate to discuss soul gems and how we essentialy practice necromancy upon ourselves and *other shriven*. It is either a reconstituting of the physical form, a strengthening of the binding to mundus, or a resummoning of onesself. Or a combination. The qustion though is what happens to the vestige by the end of the interregnum? Does he/she stay in the mundus somehow? Or do the effects mooring the vestige to the mundus eventually fade ( perhaps Akatosh no longer needing you as a champion against daedric incursion?) and the vestige 'evaporates' out like a daedra would...

What I kind of thought was after dying without the whole soulgem/wayshrine resurrection, you would just reform in Oblivion again and could return back to Nirn, IMO they just added the soul gem reviving and wayshrine teleporting/resurrection as a way for them to allow players to travel and revive eachother.

dodgehopper_ESO · November 2015

Morozov wrote: »

Could the vestige be the Dalai Lama....keeps reincarnating after they die? However in this case the vestige is born again into their adult body....perhaps to finish some wrong that has been done to them? or finish something they had started? Could the vestige....be Gandalf?

The previous arguments say that the vestige is tied to oblivion, I would partially agree. Seeing as Crows Wood is a realm of oblivion...and when you die a wronged death in PVP you come back...to avenge your death from the murderers in Cyrodil....maybe the crows help you? Could it be, that this whole time thinking you were some soul deprived savior of Nirn......you were in fact BRANDON LEE!!!!!

Somehow I feel you are missing a Kung Fury reference.

Shunravi · November 2015

NateAssassin wrote: »

Shunravi wrote: »

In short, yes. That seems like a potential way for it to work

*spoilers*

Now the more complex argument is; as per http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Wayshrines the vestige, as a soul shriven, is unmoored from the mundus. In the main quest you get your soul back, but are still able to use wayshrines and fast travel. This suggests you are still 'unmoored'. What keeps the vestige in the mundus is the skyshards, bits of Aedric energy granted as a boon. This is why you picked one up in coldharbor. It was what let Akatosh pull you back and effectively remoor you.

http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:On_Soul_Shriven discusses the nature of soul shriven and how the effect of being separated from your soul makes them immortal in the mundus and can actually make the soulgem with your soul grow, which is what i belive is the explanation for the champion system after you get your soul back and start earning them...

Now, I think its appropriate to discuss soul gems and how we essentialy practice necromancy upon ourselves and *other shriven*. It is either a reconstituting of the physical form, a strengthening of the binding to mundus, or a resummoning of onesself. Or a combination. The qustion though is what happens to the vestige by the end of the interregnum? Does he/she stay in the mundus somehow? Or do the effects mooring the vestige to the mundus eventually fade ( perhaps Akatosh no longer needing you as a champion against daedric incursion?) and the vestige 'evaporates' out like a daedra would...

What I kind of thought was after dying without the whole soulgem/wayshrine resurrection, you would just reform in Oblivion again and could return back to Nirn, IMO they just added the soul gem reviving and wayshrine teleporting/resurrection as a way for them to allow players to travel and revive eachother.

Well, the getting back to nirn part may be a problem...

I could see your point, but the lore they wrote kinda contradicts it. It is obviously a mmo rez mechanic, but i would argue it makes sense. Its not the first time wayshrines or things functionally like them have been in the series, remeber morrowind? And I do agree with the circumstances they have set for the soul shriven and the wayshrines. I dont want to simply write them out of the lore simply because its a 'rez mechanic.' To me the question would be; why would we reconstitute in oblivion?

Tryxus · November 2015

Every TES hero (from the main games) becomes immortal:
- Arena: ETERNAL Champion
- Daggerfall: The Agent, stuck in a Dragon Break
- Morrowind: Nerevarine, Corprus without the negative effects
- Oblivion: Champion of Cyrodiil, becomes the new Sheogorath
- Skyrim: The Last Dragonborn, a vampire lord (trailer)

Sp yeah, the Vestige will probably be immortal too. He may get his/her soul back in the end, but he/she becomes so proficient with Soul Magic that the Vestige will be able to live forever

UrQuan · November 2015

Of course, technically the Vestige definitely isn't immortal, because the Vestige has been dead the entire time, with his/her original body having long since rotted away. That's kind of splitting hairs, though...

Shunravi · November 2015

Tryxus wrote: »

Every TES hero (from the main games) becomes immortal:
- Arena: ETERNAL Champion
- Daggerfall: The Agent, stuck in a Dragon Break
- Morrowind: Nerevarine, Corprus without the negative effects
- Oblivion: Champion of Cyrodiil, becomes the new Sheogorath
- Skyrim: The Last Dragonborn, a vampire lord (trailer)

Sp yeah, the Vestige will probably be immortal too. He may get his/her soul back in the end, but he/she becomes so proficient with Soul Magic that the Vestige will be able to live forever

Yup. Soul magic and the conditions of being a vestige.

Shunravi · November 2015

UrQuan wrote: »

Of course, technically the Vestige definitely isn't immortal, because the Vestige has been dead the entire time, with his/her original body having long since rotted away. That's kind of splitting hairs, though...

C'mon! Split 'em with a fine razor!

The vestige is a different being after coming back... Maybe immortality in terms of undead. Like a vampire or litch.

Parrotbrain · November 2015

Every player in this games is technically a vestige, so maybe we are an incarnation of the same person. Seems like a dragon break if you ask me.

Reminds me of some random theory I once read that the whole universe consists of only one particle, oscillating backwards and forwards in time...

mr_wazzabi · November 2015

Maybe before the last main quest. But remember, you get your soul back after beating Molag Bal and talking to Meridia, so no.

Vestige is only immortal without a soul.

NateAssassin · November 2015

UrQuan wrote: »

Of course, technically the Vestige definitely isn't immortal, because the Vestige has been dead the entire time, with his/her original body having long since rotted away. That's kind of splitting hairs, though...

Undead can be considered immortal, look at vampires, and ironically the same guy who stole your soul also created vampires which are immortal undead, but then again I don't really know if soul shriven are immortal but from the looks of it Cadwell could be pretty old...

UrQuan · November 2015

mr_wazzabi wrote: »

Maybe before the last main quest. But remember, you get your soul back after beating Molag Bal and talking to Meridia, so no.

Vestige is only immortal without a soul.

Except that your body is still formed from chaotic creatia... You're still an anomaly whose body spontaneously reforms as soon as your essence reaches the nearest source of chaotic creatia (such as the Wayshrines, which are built in places where the barriers between Mundus and Aetherius are thin).

UrQuan · November 2015

NateAssassin wrote: »

UrQuan wrote: »

Of course, technically the Vestige definitely isn't immortal, because the Vestige has been dead the entire time, with his/her original body having long since rotted away. That's kind of splitting hairs, though...

Undead can be considered immortal, look at vampires, and ironically the same guy who stole your soul also created vampires which are immortal undead, but then again I don't really know if soul shriven are immortal but from the looks of it Cadwell could be pretty old...

That's why I said it's splitting hairs. Technically immortal specifically means that you can't die, so technically nothing that has died is immortal even if it continues to exist in some form of undeath. But that's the total splitting hairs definition, because reasonably you'd consider anything that can't be permanently destroyed and keeps coming back to be immortal, regardless of whether it's technically alive.

Shunravi · November 2015

Parrotbrain wrote: »

Every player in this games is technically a vestige, so maybe we are an incarnation of the same person. Seems like a dragon break if you ask me.

Reminds me of some random theory I once read that the whole universe consists of only one particle, oscillating backwards and forwards in time...

See my signature

KanedaSyndrome · November 2015

NateAssassin wrote: »

Me and my friends spent a good few hours discussing this, and it's kind of something I'd really like to discuss here.

Due to the fact the vestige doesn't actually have a soul, and the fact it is linked to Coldharbour, and that a soul shriven could be considered Daedric, would that mean that if the vestige were to die, his/her body would just reform in Oblivion like any other Daedra?

Well he's clearly immortal, otherwise why would we be able to respawn.

Tryxus · November 2015

Parrotbrain wrote: »

Every player in this games is technically a vestige, so maybe we are an incarnation of the same person. Seems like a dragon break if you ask me.

Reminds me of some random theory I once read that the whole universe consists of only one particle, oscillating backwards and forwards in time...

TES universe is a multiverse: the Scrolls predict past and future events, even possible futures and untruths. Basically, it's a fancy way of saying that we each create our own chars and that each playthrough is possible. After all, the Scrolls have foretold

elias.stormneb18_ESO · November 2015

Tryxus wrote: »

Parrotbrain wrote: »

Every player in this games is technically a vestige, so maybe we are an incarnation of the same person. Seems like a dragon break if you ask me.

Reminds me of some random theory I once read that the whole universe consists of only one particle, oscillating backwards and forwards in time...

TES universe is a multiverse: the Scrolls predict past and future events, even possible futures and untruths. Basically, it's a fancy way of saying that we each create our own chars and that each playthrough is possible. After all, the Scrolls have foretold

Michael Kirkbride, is that you?
#C0DAMAKESITCANON

Shunravi · November 2015

elias.stormneb18_ESO wrote: »

Tryxus wrote: »

Parrotbrain wrote: »

Every player in this games is technically a vestige, so maybe we are an incarnation of the same person. Seems like a dragon break if you ask me.

Reminds me of some random theory I once read that the whole universe consists of only one particle, oscillating backwards and forwards in time...

TES universe is a multiverse: the Scrolls predict past and future events, even possible futures and untruths. Basically, it's a fancy way of saying that we each create our own chars and that each playthrough is possible. After all, the Scrolls have foretold

Michael Kirkbride, is that you?
#C0DAMAKESITCANON

So queen Ayren is a psycic robot from the future? #ALLHAILCODA

crashen17b14_ESO · November 2015

I'd almost say we are the mundus equivalent of Daedra. At least in terms of the way we work. Which is to say, when we die, we are dissipated back to... wherever... and reform at the Mundus equivalent of the Azure Plasm, which just so happens to be wells of aetheric energy in the form of Wayshrines, for us. Even when we die in Oblivion, we respawn at the nearest source of Aetheric energy. As for the end of Coldharbour when we get a soul back, how do we know it's OUR soul? The soul looks the same (humanoid) regardless of race, species or gender. Unless all Argonians and Khajiit have the souls of men. After all, Molag Bal did go down pretty easy, and is the prince of lies. Even Meridia commented that wasn't necessarily a setback for him.

Mayhaps the whole Champion system is us trying to align our new soul with Aetherius (thus the constellations and such).

elias.stormneb18_ESO · November 2015

Shunravi wrote: »

elias.stormneb18_ESO wrote: »

Tryxus wrote: »

Parrotbrain wrote: »

Every player in this games is technically a vestige, so maybe we are an incarnation of the same person. Seems like a dragon break if you ask me.

Reminds me of some random theory I once read that the whole universe consists of only one particle, oscillating backwards and forwards in time...

TES universe is a multiverse: the Scrolls predict past and future events, even possible futures and untruths. Basically, it's a fancy way of saying that we each create our own chars and that each playthrough is possible. After all, the Scrolls have foretold

Michael Kirkbride, is that you?
#C0DAMAKESITCANON

So queen Ayren is a psycic robot from the future? #ALLHAILCODA

#C0DAAECANON