Should Sorc shields scale of health?

Maulkin · November 2015

No...

Jar_Ek wrote: »

I play a stamina sorcerer and so would love to have a health based shield, but I keep seeing unintended consequences. Health stacked stamina sorcerers with 33% bigger shields than any other class health shield. All magicka sorcerers forced to run with a restoration staff to survive. More bolt escaping. And a lot of justified magicka sorcerer qq.

Now that's not to say I wouldn't like one morph to be a health based shield.

The answer to that is to make it scale off you highest stat between Magicka and HP. That would make it usable for stam builds but obviously smaller in size as the magicka build relies on it a lot more than the stamina.

In fact they should make the same change to Igneous Shield and Blazing Shield.

Ezareth · November 2015

No...

Darnathian wrote: »

Ezareth wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Where is the "Sorc shield is fine, its the nerf to health that was a mistake" option?

I just want to highlight this since in case it was overlooked by players here.

I used to run with 3700 hitpoints and 2400 magicka in 1.5.

In 1.7 now I run with 18,000 hitpoints and 41,000 magicka.

The issue isn't that Hardened Ward scales off of magicka. The issue is health was nerfed into oblivion which only leaves you with the option of maximizing your primary resource pool instead.. The 1.5 Multiplier would make far more sense than the 1.1 multiplier they made it now.

From a balance standpoint it is a problem. It's the only class that has a shield stack off their highest stat. That doesn't make sense. Offense and defense without any sacrifice. That's not right.

It is the only class that relies upon damage shields as their only defense. Every other primary defense of every other class scales with their highest stats as well if you think about it.

Bashev wrote: »

mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »

runkorkoeb17_ESO wrote: »

I agree wit LoS element. This dont change facts - he have 3 ppyl /atleast/ inside the room (i`l wont count dots and aoe dmg) and all resource guards to, and he dont block single time/ he keep stam only for cc break/ This mean he mitigate all dmg only with shields/ which is easy when you stack 10-15k shields on full hp pool.Thre are pure tanks and yes they can tank 5-6 ppl in the open/ but not expirienced ppl/ but they cant do more/ cant kill even one decent player/.

There was 1 guard into the room, a healer who dropped a negate. You can't mitigate all damage with shields, there's shield breaker. You say tanks can't tank experienced people, but you're happy to classify a sorc mitigating damage with los and shields against inexperienced people as tanking. Cool

I'm done arguing with you guys. I'll enjoy your QQ from now on

OK what we have:
Tank can tank inexperience people and can kill 1 before he dies, or sometimes just tank without killing anyone
Sorcs can tank inexperience people and at the same time switch to offensive mode and kill them. Or if the things are getting ugly to reposition easily with the super high mobility that Sorcs have.
Yes I think it is balanced /sarcasm
So again my question? Why no stamina regen while blocking but magicka regen while shielding?

Just look at him in that room. He's barely taking any damage. Look at his shield value...it isn't moving half the time because the guys are just sitting in his mines like sheep.

I guarantee Fengrush with Caltrops and steel Tornado in that room would have killed the room a hell of a lot easier and faster than Sypher did but you guys just have Damage shields on the brain. There can be no rational debate when your opponent doesn't present an argument worth debating.

Ezareth · November 2015

No...

GreenSoup2HoT wrote: »

I'd rather see shield breaker removed and Sorc Shields be crit-able or at least DoT-able.

I don't have a problem with Sorc Sheild's. However when im running a high crit build, im pretty much gimping my self if anyone uses a shield. This is why everyone goes the 100% stack weapon damage route, however im not about that life.

Just my two cents.

Every build should be best against ever other build. Stacking crit makes your very powerful against classes who don't have damage shields, stacking weapon damage makes you more powerful against classes using damage shields. It's the same with Maces versus Swords and it adds complexity and balance to the game by making some builds less powerful against other builds.

Toast_STS · November 2015

Yes it should scale of health like 'every other class'

Dear ZOS,

Just make all damage shields last 6 seconds. That will make it hard to stack shields.

Sincerely,
Disgruntled Templar

dodgehopper_ESO · November 2015

Yes it should scale of health like 'every other class'

mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »

Jar_Ek wrote: »

I play a stamina sorcerer and so would love to have a health based shield, but I keep seeing unintended consequences. Health stacked stamina sorcerers with 33% bigger shields than any other class health shield. All magicka sorcerers forced to run with a restoration staff to survive. More bolt escaping. And a lot of justified magicka sorcerer qq.

Now that's not to say I wouldn't like one morph to be a health based shield.

The answer to that is to make it scale off you highest stat between Magicka and HP. That would make it usable for stam builds but obviously smaller in size as the magicka build relies on it a lot more than the stamina.

In fact they should make the same change to Igneous Shield and Blazing Shield.

The problem with scaling it in such a manner is that it pushes the notion of maxing a shield off any stat. I'm not so sure this drive toward min-maxing our stats was a good idea on the part of ZoS to begin with. If anything I think they should try to drive us toward competency in more than one area, and give us good reasons to do so. This was one of the benefits of the system before the removal of soft caps, and before damage scaled off of our attributes. In that older system, the gear and abilities you slotted meant a lot more than it did now with respect to attributes. I do believe that all shields should follow more or less the same rules.

Bashev · November 2015

Yes it should scale of health like 'every other class'

Ezareth wrote: »

Darnathian wrote: »

Ezareth wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Where is the "Sorc shield is fine, its the nerf to health that was a mistake" option?

I just want to highlight this since in case it was overlooked by players here.

I used to run with 3700 hitpoints and 2400 magicka in 1.5.

In 1.7 now I run with 18,000 hitpoints and 41,000 magicka.

The issue isn't that Hardened Ward scales off of magicka. The issue is health was nerfed into oblivion which only leaves you with the option of maximizing your primary resource pool instead.. The 1.5 Multiplier would make far more sense than the 1.1 multiplier they made it now.

From a balance standpoint it is a problem. It's the only class that has a shield stack off their highest stat. That doesn't make sense. Offense and defense without any sacrifice. That's not right.

It is the only class that relies upon damage shields as their only defense. Every other primary defense of every other class scales with their highest stats as well if you think about it.

Bashev wrote: »

mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »

runkorkoeb17_ESO wrote: »

I agree wit LoS element. This dont change facts - he have 3 ppyl /atleast/ inside the room (i`l wont count dots and aoe dmg) and all resource guards to, and he dont block single time/ he keep stam only for cc break/ This mean he mitigate all dmg only with shields/ which is easy when you stack 10-15k shields on full hp pool.Thre are pure tanks and yes they can tank 5-6 ppl in the open/ but not expirienced ppl/ but they cant do more/ cant kill even one decent player/.

There was 1 guard into the room, a healer who dropped a negate. You can't mitigate all damage with shields, there's shield breaker. You say tanks can't tank experienced people, but you're happy to classify a sorc mitigating damage with los and shields against inexperienced people as tanking. Cool

I'm done arguing with you guys. I'll enjoy your QQ from now on

OK what we have:
Tank can tank inexperience people and can kill 1 before he dies, or sometimes just tank without killing anyone
Sorcs can tank inexperience people and at the same time switch to offensive mode and kill them. Or if the things are getting ugly to reposition easily with the super high mobility that Sorcs have.
Yes I think it is balanced /sarcasm
So again my question? Why no stamina regen while blocking but magicka regen while shielding?

Just look at him in that room. He's barely taking any damage. Look at his shield value...it isn't moving half the time because the guys are just sitting in his mines like sheep.

I guarantee Fengrush with Caltrops and steel Tornado in that room would have killed the room a hell of a lot easier and faster than Sypher did but you guys just have Damage shields on the brain. There can be no rational debate when your opponent doesn't present an argument worth debating.

@Ezareth Did you stop playing your NB? You had a few comments against the shields 1 month ago. What changed your mind?

Ezareth · November 2015

No...

Bashev wrote: »

Ezareth wrote: »

Darnathian wrote: »

Ezareth wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Where is the "Sorc shield is fine, its the nerf to health that was a mistake" option?

I just want to highlight this since in case it was overlooked by players here.

I used to run with 3700 hitpoints and 2400 magicka in 1.5.

In 1.7 now I run with 18,000 hitpoints and 41,000 magicka.

The issue isn't that Hardened Ward scales off of magicka. The issue is health was nerfed into oblivion which only leaves you with the option of maximizing your primary resource pool instead.. The 1.5 Multiplier would make far more sense than the 1.1 multiplier they made it now.

From a balance standpoint it is a problem. It's the only class that has a shield stack off their highest stat. That doesn't make sense. Offense and defense without any sacrifice. That's not right.

It is the only class that relies upon damage shields as their only defense. Every other primary defense of every other class scales with their highest stats as well if you think about it.

Bashev wrote: »

mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »

runkorkoeb17_ESO wrote: »

I agree wit LoS element. This dont change facts - he have 3 ppyl /atleast/ inside the room (i`l wont count dots and aoe dmg) and all resource guards to, and he dont block single time/ he keep stam only for cc break/ This mean he mitigate all dmg only with shields/ which is easy when you stack 10-15k shields on full hp pool.Thre are pure tanks and yes they can tank 5-6 ppl in the open/ but not expirienced ppl/ but they cant do more/ cant kill even one decent player/.

There was 1 guard into the room, a healer who dropped a negate. You can't mitigate all damage with shields, there's shield breaker. You say tanks can't tank experienced people, but you're happy to classify a sorc mitigating damage with los and shields against inexperienced people as tanking. Cool

I'm done arguing with you guys. I'll enjoy your QQ from now on

OK what we have:
Tank can tank inexperience people and can kill 1 before he dies, or sometimes just tank without killing anyone
Sorcs can tank inexperience people and at the same time switch to offensive mode and kill them. Or if the things are getting ugly to reposition easily with the super high mobility that Sorcs have.
Yes I think it is balanced /sarcasm
So again my question? Why no stamina regen while blocking but magicka regen while shielding?

Just look at him in that room. He's barely taking any damage. Look at his shield value...it isn't moving half the time because the guys are just sitting in his mines like sheep.

I guarantee Fengrush with Caltrops and steel Tornado in that room would have killed the room a hell of a lot easier and faster than Sypher did but you guys just have Damage shields on the brain. There can be no rational debate when your opponent doesn't present an argument worth debating.

@Ezareth Did you stop playing your NB? You had a few comments against the shields 1 month ago. What changed your mind?

@Bashev

I was only against damage shields in 1.6 when they were broken by a player stacking magicka with high CPs. In 2.1 the biggest issues were resolved. Don't get me wrong, they are still very powerful but I think they are pretty balanced all things considered. There are also some heavy tradeoffs for stacking magicka too high such as decreased regen and a health pool that when coupled with the fact you also neglect and real defenses means you get decimated by physical damage when you shields are down.

I was PvPing on my NB a couple of nights ago. Cinn and I were fighting a pair of sorcs in the sewers and we beat them every time and they weren't bad players. I just wish people would not think I based my opinions on things on what I'm playing at the time. If I have knowledge of something I'll always give my honest opinion even if I'm supporting something that would see my build or character become weaker.

I got my ass handed to me by Sabre Ali the other night and despite running a max magicka/max magicka build he had no issues cutting through my shields and I have more CPs than him (not at cap). Then he equipped shield breaker and I couldn't last 30 seconds against him, it was just silly.

Nerfing shields would make make magicka sorcs worse than magicka DKs(Worst build in the game right now). Our entire survivability is built around damage shields, with weakened shields we'd just be fodder.

dodgehopper_ESO · November 2015

Yes it should scale of health like 'every other class'

Ezareth wrote: »

Darnathian wrote: »

Ezareth wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Where is the "Sorc shield is fine, its the nerf to health that was a mistake" option?

I just want to highlight this since in case it was overlooked by players here.

I used to run with 3700 hitpoints and 2400 magicka in 1.5.

In 1.7 now I run with 18,000 hitpoints and 41,000 magicka.

The issue isn't that Hardened Ward scales off of magicka. The issue is health was nerfed into oblivion which only leaves you with the option of maximizing your primary resource pool instead.. The 1.5 Multiplier would make far more sense than the 1.1 multiplier they made it now.

From a balance standpoint it is a problem. It's the only class that has a shield stack off their highest stat. That doesn't make sense. Offense and defense without any sacrifice. That's not right.

It is the only class that relies upon damage shields as their only defense. Every other primary defense of every other class scales with their highest stats as well if you think about it.

Bashev wrote: »

mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »

runkorkoeb17_ESO wrote: »

I agree wit LoS element. This dont change facts - he have 3 ppyl /atleast/ inside the room (i`l wont count dots and aoe dmg) and all resource guards to, and he dont block single time/ he keep stam only for cc break/ This mean he mitigate all dmg only with shields/ which is easy when you stack 10-15k shields on full hp pool.Thre are pure tanks and yes they can tank 5-6 ppl in the open/ but not expirienced ppl/ but they cant do more/ cant kill even one decent player/.

There was 1 guard into the room, a healer who dropped a negate. You can't mitigate all damage with shields, there's shield breaker. You say tanks can't tank experienced people, but you're happy to classify a sorc mitigating damage with los and shields against inexperienced people as tanking. Cool

I'm done arguing with you guys. I'll enjoy your QQ from now on

OK what we have:
Tank can tank inexperience people and can kill 1 before he dies, or sometimes just tank without killing anyone
Sorcs can tank inexperience people and at the same time switch to offensive mode and kill them. Or if the things are getting ugly to reposition easily with the super high mobility that Sorcs have.
Yes I think it is balanced /sarcasm
So again my question? Why no stamina regen while blocking but magicka regen while shielding?

Just look at him in that room. He's barely taking any damage. Look at his shield value...it isn't moving half the time because the guys are just sitting in his mines like sheep.

I guarantee Fengrush with Caltrops and steel Tornado in that room would have killed the room a hell of a lot easier and faster than Sypher did but you guys just have Damage shields on the brain. There can be no rational debate when your opponent doesn't present an argument worth debating.

I'm not entirely sure how you can say that Hardened Ward is the only means by which a Sorcerer can mitigate damage. Its even more odd when you compare Fengrush to things. I don't see him use shields at least not the last times I've run into him. He relies a lot more on boundless lightning (more mobility with his orc's already insane mobility), crits, vigor, rally, etc. I"m pretty sure I haven't seen a purple bubble on him. To be fair Fengrush is playing more dps role, and his dps is off the charts but he does have mitigation. The reason he appears to be tanky is because they've completely gutted tanking, and tanking was already not that amazing in pvp. This is a whole other issue.

Sorcs have roughly 5 in-class methods of regaining health, they have one of the best armor/sr boosting skills in the game (boundless), and they have the de-facto best shield in the game. Sorcerer has always been amazing. Even early in the game I was able to do crazy things with my sorcerer that was not even close to possible with other characters. I can remember tanking dungeons and dps-ing by myself on bosses all while wearing robes. They ultimately realized they had to change the way bound armor worked (among other things) but I can safely say that Sorc has always been very strong. Dark exchange is also a lot better than people give credit to it. I realize it is a channel, but as someone who plays Templar an awful lot, I'm acclimated to having slow abilities. Maybe this is why I just don't understand the complaints Sorc players have about exchange. Exchange is AWESOME! You get a strong heal, and a moderate boost to whichever stat you use more. Granted its not like you can just spam it at any time, but try popping a shield, bolt escape (whatever morph), followed by exchange. The bolt escape is done through your enemy, giving you that moment to heal while they respond. Sorcs are extremely resilient, and highly mobile. In my view the real loser here is the Sorc tank, in part because of the reason I feel the shield should be based off of health not magicka. This is in turn a result of them foolishly nerfing health and making the damage stats vastly more valuable. Maybe we just don't see eye to eye here on what is good for the game. As someone who has played tank role on every class, I can say these changes are bad for everyone. The game is becoming a two-archetype system: DPS & Heals. Tanks really get the shaft, and anyone who says otherwise is willing to throw their gold around like they're a Saudi Prince or is just selling something.

dodgehopper_ESO · November 2015

Yes it should scale of health like 'every other class'

Perhaps the best solution of all, would be to scale shield size based on the combined value of all 3 stats (M/H/S) -or- base the shield size purely on character level, the way skills like rune focus, boundless lightning, and spike armor function. I'm not sure how I feel about that though since it would mean that DPS would still have a significant advantage in damage scaling vs. mitigation, a problem that already exists in the tanking world.

Maulkin · November 2015

No...

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

The problem with scaling it in such a manner is that it pushes the notion of maxing a shield off any stat. I'm not so sure this drive toward min-maxing our stats was a good idea on the part of ZoS to begin with.

I have no idea what you are trying to say. People min/max stats regardless. That's part of gaming. Whether it be spell/wpn damage, max mag/stam, regen, whatever....

Values have to scale off something. ESO is not differnet than any other game in that regard

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

I'm not entirely sure how you can say that Hardened Ward is the only means by which a Sorcerer can mitigate damage. Its even more odd when you compare Fengrush to things. I don't see him use shields at least not the last times I've run into him. He relies a lot more on boundless lightning (more mobility with his orc's already insane mobility), crits, vigor, rally, etc. I"m pretty sure I haven't seen a purple bubble on him.

What on earth are you talking about? That's a stamina build. A stamina build ofc doesn't rely on shields, nor is anyone complaining about shielding on stam sorcs. The magicka sorcerer on the other hand has neither heals, nor dodge rolls and lower armor.

Ezareth · November 2015

No...

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

Ezareth wrote: »

Darnathian wrote: »

Ezareth wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Where is the "Sorc shield is fine, its the nerf to health that was a mistake" option?

I just want to highlight this since in case it was overlooked by players here.

I used to run with 3700 hitpoints and 2400 magicka in 1.5.

In 1.7 now I run with 18,000 hitpoints and 41,000 magicka.

The issue isn't that Hardened Ward scales off of magicka. The issue is health was nerfed into oblivion which only leaves you with the option of maximizing your primary resource pool instead.. The 1.5 Multiplier would make far more sense than the 1.1 multiplier they made it now.

From a balance standpoint it is a problem. It's the only class that has a shield stack off their highest stat. That doesn't make sense. Offense and defense without any sacrifice. That's not right.

It is the only class that relies upon damage shields as their only defense. Every other primary defense of every other class scales with their highest stats as well if you think about it.

Bashev wrote: »

mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »

runkorkoeb17_ESO wrote: »

I agree wit LoS element. This dont change facts - he have 3 ppyl /atleast/ inside the room (i`l wont count dots and aoe dmg) and all resource guards to, and he dont block single time/ he keep stam only for cc break/ This mean he mitigate all dmg only with shields/ which is easy when you stack 10-15k shields on full hp pool.Thre are pure tanks and yes they can tank 5-6 ppl in the open/ but not expirienced ppl/ but they cant do more/ cant kill even one decent player/.

There was 1 guard into the room, a healer who dropped a negate. You can't mitigate all damage with shields, there's shield breaker. You say tanks can't tank experienced people, but you're happy to classify a sorc mitigating damage with los and shields against inexperienced people as tanking. Cool

I'm done arguing with you guys. I'll enjoy your QQ from now on

OK what we have:
Tank can tank inexperience people and can kill 1 before he dies, or sometimes just tank without killing anyone
Sorcs can tank inexperience people and at the same time switch to offensive mode and kill them. Or if the things are getting ugly to reposition easily with the super high mobility that Sorcs have.
Yes I think it is balanced /sarcasm
So again my question? Why no stamina regen while blocking but magicka regen while shielding?

Just look at him in that room. He's barely taking any damage. Look at his shield value...it isn't moving half the time because the guys are just sitting in his mines like sheep.

I guarantee Fengrush with Caltrops and steel Tornado in that room would have killed the room a hell of a lot easier and faster than Sypher did but you guys just have Damage shields on the brain. There can be no rational debate when your opponent doesn't present an argument worth debating.

I'm not entirely sure how you can say that Hardened Ward is the only means by which a Sorcerer can mitigate damage. Its even more odd when you compare Fengrush to things. I don't see him use shields at least not the last times I've run into him. He relies a lot more on boundless lightning (more mobility with his orc's already insane mobility), crits, vigor, rally, etc. I"m pretty sure I haven't seen a purple bubble on him. To be fair Fengrush is playing more dps role, and his dps is off the charts but he does have mitigation. The reason he appears to be tanky is because they've completely gutted tanking, and tanking was already not that amazing in pvp. This is a whole other issue.

Sorcs have roughly 5 in-class methods of regaining health, they have one of the best armor/sr boosting skills in the game (boundless), and they have the de-facto best shield in the game. Sorcerer has always been amazing. Even early in the game I was able to do crazy things with my sorcerer that was not even close to possible with other characters. I can remember tanking dungeons and dps-ing by myself on bosses all while wearing robes. They ultimately realized they had to change the way bound armor worked (among other things) but I can safely say that Sorc has always been very strong. Dark exchange is also a lot better than people give credit to it. I realize it is a channel, but as someone who plays Templar an awful lot, I'm acclimated to having slow abilities. Maybe this is why I just don't understand the complaints Sorc players have about exchange. Exchange is AWESOME! You get a strong heal, and a moderate boost to whichever stat you use more. Granted its not like you can just spam it at any time, but try popping a shield, bolt escape (whatever morph), followed by exchange. The bolt escape is done through your enemy, giving you that moment to heal while they respond. Sorcs are extremely resilient, and highly mobile. In my view the real loser here is the Sorc tank, in part because of the reason I feel the shield should be based off of health not magicka. This is in turn a result of them foolishly nerfing health and making the damage stats vastly more valuable. Maybe we just don't see eye to eye here on what is good for the game. As someone who has played tank role on every class, I can say these changes are bad for everyone. The game is becoming a two-archetype system: DPS & Heals. Tanks really get the shaft, and anyone who says otherwise is willing to throw their gold around like they're a Saudi Prince or is just selling something.

It was implied that I was speaking of Magicka sorcs since no Stamina sorc worth anything would ever cast Hardened ward with <10K magicka pool. I brought up Fengrush because I've seen him wipe a group of 6 players with Steel tornado when they dont have someone spamming heals the whole time and those people Sypher fought were all bad players with no real healing to be seen.

Dark exchange was amazing back in 1.5 when I used it in my build but not so now.

It doesn't have a HPS value anywhere near what it would have to be and the protection offered by light armor and even boundless storm is not enough when you're fighting a NB who has your marked or is using surprise attack and maces. The primary issue with Exchange is it consumes stamina which as a Sorc is your weakest point and it is now instant cast if I recall.

With gap closers as they exist and the cost of bolt escape stacking you are not longer able to escape any decent stamina build. Trust me, I'm an expert at running down sorcs on my NB, it's impossible for them to get away now and you can block a sorc trying to streak through you.

As far as tanking goes I play a "Tank" nightblade with sword and board that is very different than a PvE tank and most Stamina nightblades that I see. I can take burst damage that would insta-gib most people but the nerf to block has limited the amount you can block and the length of time you can do so. I don't agree with the block nerf BTW, I think it was a stupid bandaid to the problem.

dodgehopper_ESO · November 2015

Yes it should scale of health like 'every other class'

mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

The problem with scaling it in such a manner is that it pushes the notion of maxing a shield off any stat. I'm not so sure this drive toward min-maxing our stats was a good idea on the part of ZoS to begin with.

I have no idea what you are trying to say. People min/max stats regardless. That's part of gaming. Whether it be spell/wpn damage, max mag/stam, regen, whatever....

Values have to scale off something. ESO is not differnet than any other game in that regard

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

I'm not entirely sure how you can say that Hardened Ward is the only means by which a Sorcerer can mitigate damage. Its even more odd when you compare Fengrush to things. I don't see him use shields at least not the last times I've run into him. He relies a lot more on boundless lightning (more mobility with his orc's already insane mobility), crits, vigor, rally, etc. I"m pretty sure I haven't seen a purple bubble on him.

What on earth are you talking about? That's a stamina build. A stamina build ofc doesn't rely on shields, nor is anyone complaining about shielding on stam sorcs. The magicka sorcerer on the other hand has neither heals, nor dodge rolls and lower armor.

You're right its a stamina build, and it showcases class mitigations which you are pretending don't exist. Namely, Boundless Lightning. Its your choice to wear a bathrobe and be a glass cannon. Yes you get better regeneration and spell penetration, and lower armor/sr. You can mitigate this to some degree with boundless and HW. Please don't act like hardened ward is your only mitigation as a Sorcerer though, because that's either extremely ignorant or a boldfaced lie.

Referring to your original point here, I really don't think min-maxing is necessarily what gaming is about. I think Optimization is a better term, it is also a mathematical term. You should have to weight different concerns all within the same build. The more you maximize on something, the more you should be losing. My irritation with the system as it is designed presently is that the more you maximize damage the more you can mitigate. It is a ridiculous system, and this is true of all classes. The only time this is not true is in a few pve situations where the boss can one-shot you. A system that forced optimization would force players to make choices about survivability and damage output. Bolt Escape by the way is a form of mitigation. I've used it many times to evade damage, and the great thing about it is that you evade 100% of the damage you would have received. The notion that you can spam the hell out of your 'magic mitigation' abilities but a block tank can not hold up his shield to do the same thing because of regen nerfs, is preposterous. How do you not understand what is being spoken of here, that's what I want to know.

dodgehopper_ESO · November 2015

Yes it should scale of health like 'every other class'

Ezareth wrote: »

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

Ezareth wrote: »

Darnathian wrote: »

Ezareth wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Where is the "Sorc shield is fine, its the nerf to health that was a mistake" option?

I just want to highlight this since in case it was overlooked by players here.

I used to run with 3700 hitpoints and 2400 magicka in 1.5.

In 1.7 now I run with 18,000 hitpoints and 41,000 magicka.

The issue isn't that Hardened Ward scales off of magicka. The issue is health was nerfed into oblivion which only leaves you with the option of maximizing your primary resource pool instead.. The 1.5 Multiplier would make far more sense than the 1.1 multiplier they made it now.

From a balance standpoint it is a problem. It's the only class that has a shield stack off their highest stat. That doesn't make sense. Offense and defense without any sacrifice. That's not right.

It is the only class that relies upon damage shields as their only defense. Every other primary defense of every other class scales with their highest stats as well if you think about it.

Bashev wrote: »

mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »

runkorkoeb17_ESO wrote: »

I agree wit LoS element. This dont change facts - he have 3 ppyl /atleast/ inside the room (i`l wont count dots and aoe dmg) and all resource guards to, and he dont block single time/ he keep stam only for cc break/ This mean he mitigate all dmg only with shields/ which is easy when you stack 10-15k shields on full hp pool.Thre are pure tanks and yes they can tank 5-6 ppl in the open/ but not expirienced ppl/ but they cant do more/ cant kill even one decent player/.

There was 1 guard into the room, a healer who dropped a negate. You can't mitigate all damage with shields, there's shield breaker. You say tanks can't tank experienced people, but you're happy to classify a sorc mitigating damage with los and shields against inexperienced people as tanking. Cool

I'm done arguing with you guys. I'll enjoy your QQ from now on

OK what we have:
Tank can tank inexperience people and can kill 1 before he dies, or sometimes just tank without killing anyone
Sorcs can tank inexperience people and at the same time switch to offensive mode and kill them. Or if the things are getting ugly to reposition easily with the super high mobility that Sorcs have.
Yes I think it is balanced /sarcasm
So again my question? Why no stamina regen while blocking but magicka regen while shielding?

Just look at him in that room. He's barely taking any damage. Look at his shield value...it isn't moving half the time because the guys are just sitting in his mines like sheep.

I guarantee Fengrush with Caltrops and steel Tornado in that room would have killed the room a hell of a lot easier and faster than Sypher did but you guys just have Damage shields on the brain. There can be no rational debate when your opponent doesn't present an argument worth debating.

I'm not entirely sure how you can say that Hardened Ward is the only means by which a Sorcerer can mitigate damage. Its even more odd when you compare Fengrush to things. I don't see him use shields at least not the last times I've run into him. He relies a lot more on boundless lightning (more mobility with his orc's already insane mobility), crits, vigor, rally, etc. I"m pretty sure I haven't seen a purple bubble on him. To be fair Fengrush is playing more dps role, and his dps is off the charts but he does have mitigation. The reason he appears to be tanky is because they've completely gutted tanking, and tanking was already not that amazing in pvp. This is a whole other issue.

Sorcs have roughly 5 in-class methods of regaining health, they have one of the best armor/sr boosting skills in the game (boundless), and they have the de-facto best shield in the game. Sorcerer has always been amazing. Even early in the game I was able to do crazy things with my sorcerer that was not even close to possible with other characters. I can remember tanking dungeons and dps-ing by myself on bosses all while wearing robes. They ultimately realized they had to change the way bound armor worked (among other things) but I can safely say that Sorc has always been very strong. Dark exchange is also a lot better than people give credit to it. I realize it is a channel, but as someone who plays Templar an awful lot, I'm acclimated to having slow abilities. Maybe this is why I just don't understand the complaints Sorc players have about exchange. Exchange is AWESOME! You get a strong heal, and a moderate boost to whichever stat you use more. Granted its not like you can just spam it at any time, but try popping a shield, bolt escape (whatever morph), followed by exchange. The bolt escape is done through your enemy, giving you that moment to heal while they respond. Sorcs are extremely resilient, and highly mobile. In my view the real loser here is the Sorc tank, in part because of the reason I feel the shield should be based off of health not magicka. This is in turn a result of them foolishly nerfing health and making the damage stats vastly more valuable. Maybe we just don't see eye to eye here on what is good for the game. As someone who has played tank role on every class, I can say these changes are bad for everyone. The game is becoming a two-archetype system: DPS & Heals. Tanks really get the shaft, and anyone who says otherwise is willing to throw their gold around like they're a Saudi Prince or is just selling something.

It was implied that I was speaking of Magicka sorcs since no Stamina sorc worth anything would ever cast Hardened ward with <10K magicka pool. I brought up Fengrush because I've seen him wipe a group of 6 players with Steel tornado when they dont have someone spamming heals the whole time and those people Sypher fought were all bad players with no real healing to be seen.

Dark exchange was amazing back in 1.5 when I used it in my build but not so now.

It doesn't have a HPS value anywhere near what it would have to be and the protection offered by light armor and even boundless storm is not enough when you're fighting a NB who has your marked or is using surprise attack and maces. The primary issue with Exchange is it consumes stamina which as a Sorc is your weakest point and it is now instant cast if I recall.

With gap closers as they exist and the cost of bolt escape stacking you are not longer able to escape any decent stamina build. Trust me, I'm an expert at running down sorcs on my NB, it's impossible for them to get away now and you can block a sorc trying to streak through you.

As far as tanking goes I play a "Tank" nightblade with sword and board that is very different than a PvE tank and most Stamina nightblades that I see. I can take burst damage that would insta-gib most people but the nerf to block has limited the amount you can block and the length of time you can do so. I don't agree with the block nerf BTW, I think it was a stupid bandaid to the problem.

In that regard I agree. This is why I keep saying on threads like these that the problem is systemic and really there are a lot of moving parts here. I'm not even sure its feasible to correct one part without dealing with other underlying parts. One reason I dislike damage scaling off of attributes, is that it gives too many dials for the player to adjust, which in turn makes it extremely difficult for ZoS to balance things. As it stands though I think the issues involved are definitely greater than wards. The biggest problems indirectly related are the rolling/block nerfs. The bolt escape nerfs. The upcoming cloak nerfs (or did they release that yet, I don't know I won't get to play til the weekend). The reduction in health bonus. The lack of any valuable scaling of anything based off of health in a world of magicka/damage scaling ability effects. Flaws in heavy armor and light armor passives. Heavy armor should at the least get penetration resistance on top of its armor/sr values. Light armor should be superior at guarding against magicka (though I feel it should remain weak versus weapons). Most classes have skills I think in need of reconsideration. Dk igneous weapons is too short for instance. Templar Eclipse still needs to go back the drawing board. I could go on, and maybe some of my ideas aren't good. It is really hard to say, because it depends a lot on what changes to the underlying game they will make or plan to make. Every time they change the underlying game, it fundamentally changes the way abilities work with and against one another, even abilities which were already/always broken.

Bashev · November 2015

Yes it should scale of health like 'every other class'

Ezareth wrote: »

Bashev wrote: »

Ezareth wrote: »

Darnathian wrote: »

Ezareth wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Where is the "Sorc shield is fine, its the nerf to health that was a mistake" option?

I just want to highlight this since in case it was overlooked by players here.

I used to run with 3700 hitpoints and 2400 magicka in 1.5.

In 1.7 now I run with 18,000 hitpoints and 41,000 magicka.

The issue isn't that Hardened Ward scales off of magicka. The issue is health was nerfed into oblivion which only leaves you with the option of maximizing your primary resource pool instead.. The 1.5 Multiplier would make far more sense than the 1.1 multiplier they made it now.

From a balance standpoint it is a problem. It's the only class that has a shield stack off their highest stat. That doesn't make sense. Offense and defense without any sacrifice. That's not right.

It is the only class that relies upon damage shields as their only defense. Every other primary defense of every other class scales with their highest stats as well if you think about it.

Bashev wrote: »

mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »

runkorkoeb17_ESO wrote: »

I agree wit LoS element. This dont change facts - he have 3 ppyl /atleast/ inside the room (i`l wont count dots and aoe dmg) and all resource guards to, and he dont block single time/ he keep stam only for cc break/ This mean he mitigate all dmg only with shields/ which is easy when you stack 10-15k shields on full hp pool.Thre are pure tanks and yes they can tank 5-6 ppl in the open/ but not expirienced ppl/ but they cant do more/ cant kill even one decent player/.

There was 1 guard into the room, a healer who dropped a negate. You can't mitigate all damage with shields, there's shield breaker. You say tanks can't tank experienced people, but you're happy to classify a sorc mitigating damage with los and shields against inexperienced people as tanking. Cool

I'm done arguing with you guys. I'll enjoy your QQ from now on

OK what we have:
Tank can tank inexperience people and can kill 1 before he dies, or sometimes just tank without killing anyone
Sorcs can tank inexperience people and at the same time switch to offensive mode and kill them. Or if the things are getting ugly to reposition easily with the super high mobility that Sorcs have.
Yes I think it is balanced /sarcasm
So again my question? Why no stamina regen while blocking but magicka regen while shielding?

Just look at him in that room. He's barely taking any damage. Look at his shield value...it isn't moving half the time because the guys are just sitting in his mines like sheep.

I guarantee Fengrush with Caltrops and steel Tornado in that room would have killed the room a hell of a lot easier and faster than Sypher did but you guys just have Damage shields on the brain. There can be no rational debate when your opponent doesn't present an argument worth debating.

@Ezareth Did you stop playing your NB? You had a few comments against the shields 1 month ago. What changed your mind?

@Bashev

I was only against damage shields in 1.6 when they were broken by a player stacking magicka with high CPs. In 2.1 the biggest issues were resolved. Don't get me wrong, they are still very powerful but I think they are pretty balanced all things considered. There are also some heavy tradeoffs for stacking magicka too high such as decreased regen and a health pool that when coupled with the fact you also neglect and real defenses means you get decimated by physical damage when you shields are down.

How it was resolved in 2.1? The damage was reduced with 25% and the shields with 35%. Do you believe that these 10% were enough?

Maulkin · November 2015

No...

Bashev wrote: »

Ezareth wrote: »

Bashev wrote: »

Ezareth wrote: »

Darnathian wrote: »

Ezareth wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Where is the "Sorc shield is fine, its the nerf to health that was a mistake" option?

I just want to highlight this since in case it was overlooked by players here.

I used to run with 3700 hitpoints and 2400 magicka in 1.5.

In 1.7 now I run with 18,000 hitpoints and 41,000 magicka.

The issue isn't that Hardened Ward scales off of magicka. The issue is health was nerfed into oblivion which only leaves you with the option of maximizing your primary resource pool instead.. The 1.5 Multiplier would make far more sense than the 1.1 multiplier they made it now.

From a balance standpoint it is a problem. It's the only class that has a shield stack off their highest stat. That doesn't make sense. Offense and defense without any sacrifice. That's not right.

It is the only class that relies upon damage shields as their only defense. Every other primary defense of every other class scales with their highest stats as well if you think about it.

Bashev wrote: »

mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »

runkorkoeb17_ESO wrote: »

I agree wit LoS element. This dont change facts - he have 3 ppyl /atleast/ inside the room (i`l wont count dots and aoe dmg) and all resource guards to, and he dont block single time/ he keep stam only for cc break/ This mean he mitigate all dmg only with shields/ which is easy when you stack 10-15k shields on full hp pool.Thre are pure tanks and yes they can tank 5-6 ppl in the open/ but not expirienced ppl/ but they cant do more/ cant kill even one decent player/.

There was 1 guard into the room, a healer who dropped a negate. You can't mitigate all damage with shields, there's shield breaker. You say tanks can't tank experienced people, but you're happy to classify a sorc mitigating damage with los and shields against inexperienced people as tanking. Cool

I'm done arguing with you guys. I'll enjoy your QQ from now on

OK what we have:
Tank can tank inexperience people and can kill 1 before he dies, or sometimes just tank without killing anyone
Sorcs can tank inexperience people and at the same time switch to offensive mode and kill them. Or if the things are getting ugly to reposition easily with the super high mobility that Sorcs have.
Yes I think it is balanced /sarcasm
So again my question? Why no stamina regen while blocking but magicka regen while shielding?

Just look at him in that room. He's barely taking any damage. Look at his shield value...it isn't moving half the time because the guys are just sitting in his mines like sheep.

I guarantee Fengrush with Caltrops and steel Tornado in that room would have killed the room a hell of a lot easier and faster than Sypher did but you guys just have Damage shields on the brain. There can be no rational debate when your opponent doesn't present an argument worth debating.

@Ezareth Did you stop playing your NB? You had a few comments against the shields 1 month ago. What changed your mind?

@Bashev

I was only against damage shields in 1.6 when they were broken by a player stacking magicka with high CPs. In 2.1 the biggest issues were resolved. Don't get me wrong, they are still very powerful but I think they are pretty balanced all things considered. There are also some heavy tradeoffs for stacking magicka too high such as decreased regen and a health pool that when coupled with the fact you also neglect and real defenses means you get decimated by physical damage when you shields are down.

How it was resolved in 2.1? The damage was reduced with 25% and the shields with 35%. Do you believe that these 10% were enough?

It's been way more than that, due to itemisation. They have added a lot of new sets that increase the damage and v16 gold weapons are +200 spell/weapon damage from their v14 counterparts, not to mention the buff to dmg/regen enchants.

I ran 1.8k spell damage buffed in 2.0, I have 2.8k now while my max magicka has only moved from 35k to 37k by comparison (which is what drives shields). Regen is roughly the same too.

By my calculations shield strength to average damage was nerfed by slightly over 25%. If that's not enough of a nerf on shield strength for you, then I'm sorry but in your case you'll never be happy. You have videos around here, like the one-shot compilations, with people doing 20k heavy attacks/ Take Flights, 15k Wrecking Blows etc but somehow 10-11k wards are the problem, sure.

The only problem with wards is hardened ward + harness magicka stack against magic damage. That's about it. Your problem as a DK is that your class has low damage, but that's another issue you might want to take with devs in which I'm supportive. I don't, in any way, feel that my wards are too strong based on the average incoming damage I get.

EDIT: And they also added shield breaker in 2.1. So now it's also a case of using the counters that are available. On top of the shield strength nerfs

Runkorko · November 2015

Yes it should scale of health like 'every other class'

Make shields critable, problem solved. One skill make the entire build/crit/ useless. Balance eh...

WreckfulAbandon · November 2015

No...

People's problem with sorcs is shield stacking, not Hardened Ward.

I'm even ok with shield stacking, but I think that Harness Magicka needs to be looked into as it makes sorcs entirely too tanky vs other magic builds. Maybe if it only returned magicka once or the return was capped somehow.

As it is, Harness allows and encourages sorcs to (to quote someone else on this thread) trololololol magicka users for free.

And don't come at me with crap like, "everyone can use Harness," no one can utilize Harness as (ridiculously) effectively as sorcs. I actually created a thread on this a few weeks back and lol'd at ppl trying to explain why it's balanced for sorcs to have the ability to tank other magicka builds for free while speccing for damage.

Harness Magicka needs to be reworked. I would say Healing Ward too but I believe that nerfing Healing Ward would make reverberating bash (and any defile) too strong in PvP.

Maulkin · November 2015

No...

runkorkoeb17_ESO wrote: »

Make shields critable, problem solved. One skill make the entire build/crit/ useless. Balance eh...

Nope, that's not a valid option. Not while shields a) can't crit themselves (i.e. I can't get a 17k ward crit) b) offer 0 armor/spell mitigation. That's the disadvantage of shields as opposed to heals. Their advantages are that they sit on top of your HP (extending it in a way beyond you max HP) and that they can't be crit. It's a different mechanic that adds variety.

Also crit is not useless, I'm running loads of it. Tons of players without shields out there and also when you bring a light armor player's shields down, crit damage really hurts them because their mitigation is crap and no one is running impenetrable, relying on shields for crit protection.

Like Ez says, Crit builds shouldn't be Alpha builds. The go to builds for PvP. They already nerfed blocking which was another anti-crit mechanic, they buffed thief mundus, they fixed impenetrable. If shields can be crit as well, we'll all be running crit builds.

And as stamina builds get higher crits due to medium armor passives and daggers passives this will make the bias towards stamina in PvP even greater. No thanks

They just need to look at the Hardened Ward + Harness Magicka stack. That's the only thing op about shields atm. Everything else is baseless QQ.

Ezareth · November 2015

No...

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

The problem with scaling it in such a manner is that it pushes the notion of maxing a shield off any stat. I'm not so sure this drive toward min-maxing our stats was a good idea on the part of ZoS to begin with.

I have no idea what you are trying to say. People min/max stats regardless. That's part of gaming. Whether it be spell/wpn damage, max mag/stam, regen, whatever....

Values have to scale off something. ESO is not differnet than any other game in that regard

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

I'm not entirely sure how you can say that Hardened Ward is the only means by which a Sorcerer can mitigate damage. Its even more odd when you compare Fengrush to things. I don't see him use shields at least not the last times I've run into him. He relies a lot more on boundless lightning (more mobility with his orc's already insane mobility), crits, vigor, rally, etc. I"m pretty sure I haven't seen a purple bubble on him.

What on earth are you talking about? That's a stamina build. A stamina build ofc doesn't rely on shields, nor is anyone complaining about shielding on stam sorcs. The magicka sorcerer on the other hand has neither heals, nor dodge rolls and lower armor.

You're right its a stamina build, and it showcases class mitigations which you are pretending don't exist. Namely, Boundless Lightning. Its your choice to wear a bathrobe and be a glass cannon. Yes you get better regeneration and spell penetration, and lower armor/sr. You can mitigate this to some degree with boundless and HW. Please don't act like hardened ward is your only mitigation as a Sorcerer though, because that's either extremely ignorant or a boldfaced lie.

Referring to your original point here, I really don't think min-maxing is necessarily what gaming is about. I think Optimization is a better term, it is also a mathematical term. You should have to weight different concerns all within the same build. The more you maximize on something, the more you should be losing. My irritation with the system as it is designed presently is that the more you maximize damage the more you can mitigate. It is a ridiculous system, and this is true of all classes. The only time this is not true is in a few pve situations where the boss can one-shot you. A system that forced optimization would force players to make choices about survivability and damage output. Bolt Escape by the way is a form of mitigation. I've used it many times to evade damage, and the great thing about it is that you evade 100% of the damage you would have received. The notion that you can spam the hell out of your 'magic mitigation' abilities but a block tank can not hold up his shield to do the same thing because of regen nerfs, is preposterous. How do you not understand what is being spoken of here, that's what I want to know.

Passive defenses such as Armor and Spell Resistance are the worst defenses in the game and boundless storm reduces the damage you take by less than 10% because it stacks with nothing on a light armor sorc. They can be pierced (especially for a light armor wearer) and the benefit they provide is far less than what you get with active defensive abilities which are dodge roll, block and damage shields. Each of these defensive abilities has benefits and tradeoffs. Block allows you to do damage at the same time you're blocking (block-casting) unlike damage shields which require you to use your GCD on recasting it. It also stacks with your passive resistances. Dodge roll avoid 100% of damage for every ability it does but doesn't work on all abilities. Everything has weaknesses and strengths. This topic has been done countless times in these forums...

Bashev wrote: »

Ezareth wrote: »

Bashev wrote: »

Ezareth wrote: »

Darnathian wrote: »

Ezareth wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Where is the "Sorc shield is fine, its the nerf to health that was a mistake" option?

I just want to highlight this since in case it was overlooked by players here.

I used to run with 3700 hitpoints and 2400 magicka in 1.5.

In 1.7 now I run with 18,000 hitpoints and 41,000 magicka.

The issue isn't that Hardened Ward scales off of magicka. The issue is health was nerfed into oblivion which only leaves you with the option of maximizing your primary resource pool instead.. The 1.5 Multiplier would make far more sense than the 1.1 multiplier they made it now.

From a balance standpoint it is a problem. It's the only class that has a shield stack off their highest stat. That doesn't make sense. Offense and defense without any sacrifice. That's not right.

It is the only class that relies upon damage shields as their only defense. Every other primary defense of every other class scales with their highest stats as well if you think about it.

Bashev wrote: »

mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »

runkorkoeb17_ESO wrote: »

I agree wit LoS element. This dont change facts - he have 3 ppyl /atleast/ inside the room (i`l wont count dots and aoe dmg) and all resource guards to, and he dont block single time/ he keep stam only for cc break/ This mean he mitigate all dmg only with shields/ which is easy when you stack 10-15k shields on full hp pool.Thre are pure tanks and yes they can tank 5-6 ppl in the open/ but not expirienced ppl/ but they cant do more/ cant kill even one decent player/.

There was 1 guard into the room, a healer who dropped a negate. You can't mitigate all damage with shields, there's shield breaker. You say tanks can't tank experienced people, but you're happy to classify a sorc mitigating damage with los and shields against inexperienced people as tanking. Cool

I'm done arguing with you guys. I'll enjoy your QQ from now on

OK what we have:
Tank can tank inexperience people and can kill 1 before he dies, or sometimes just tank without killing anyone
Sorcs can tank inexperience people and at the same time switch to offensive mode and kill them. Or if the things are getting ugly to reposition easily with the super high mobility that Sorcs have.
Yes I think it is balanced /sarcasm
So again my question? Why no stamina regen while blocking but magicka regen while shielding?

Just look at him in that room. He's barely taking any damage. Look at his shield value...it isn't moving half the time because the guys are just sitting in his mines like sheep.

I guarantee Fengrush with Caltrops and steel Tornado in that room would have killed the room a hell of a lot easier and faster than Sypher did but you guys just have Damage shields on the brain. There can be no rational debate when your opponent doesn't present an argument worth debating.

@Ezareth Did you stop playing your NB? You had a few comments against the shields 1 month ago. What changed your mind?

@Bashev

I was only against damage shields in 1.6 when they were broken by a player stacking magicka with high CPs. In 2.1 the biggest issues were resolved. Don't get me wrong, they are still very powerful but I think they are pretty balanced all things considered. There are also some heavy tradeoffs for stacking magicka too high such as decreased regen and a health pool that when coupled with the fact you also neglect and real defenses means you get decimated by physical damage when you shields are down.

How it was resolved in 2.1? The damage was reduced with 25% and the shields with 35%. Do you believe that these 10% were enough?

Nah, that's not how the math worked.

Most people may not realize this but in 1.6 Damage shields morphs and Bastion were *additive* with battle spirit not multiplicative with it. I'll break the numbers down 1.6 compared to 2.1.

If you base Hardened ward in 1.6 was 10,000
With max Bastion you would have 10,000 * (1+ -.15%(Battle Spirit) + .25 + .33(Hardened Ward) = 14,300

In 2.1 the same hardened ward would be 10,000 * .50(Battle Spirit) * 1.25 * 1.33 = 8312.5 which is only 58% of the old hardened Ward value. Hardened ward(33%) wasn't nearly as overpowered as Dampen Magic(42%) and healing ward(300%) due to the bug with battle spirit. A sorc could stack all 3 of those shields and get a virtually impenetrable shield stack against magic damage...it was stupid.

WreckfulAbandon wrote: »

People's problem with sorcs is shield stacking, not Hardened Ward.

I'm even ok with shield stacking, but I think that Harness Magicka needs to be looked into as it makes sorcs entirely too tanky vs other magic builds. Maybe if it only returned magicka once or the return was capped somehow.

As it is, Harness allows and encourages sorcs to (to quote someone else on this thread) trololololol magicka users for free.

And don't come at me with crap like, "everyone can use Harness," no one can utilize Harness as (ridiculously) effectively as sorcs. I actually created a thread on this a few weeks back and lol'd at ppl trying to explain why it's balanced for sorcs to have the ability to tank other magicka builds for free while speccing for damage.

Harness Magicka needs to be reworked. I would say Healing Ward too but I believe that nerfing Healing Ward would make reverberating bash (and any defile) too strong in PvP.

Personally I don't care if people remove the ability to stack multiple types of shields. I'd be fine with the largest value shield always overwriting a smaller value one with the exception of some of the minor shields being created by CP passives and some abilities etc.

Runkorko · November 2015

Yes it should scale of health like 'every other class'

mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »

runkorkoeb17_ESO wrote: »

Make shields critable, problem solved. One skill make the entire build/crit/ useless. Balance eh...

Nope, that's not a valid option. Not while shields a) can't crit themselves (i.e. I can't get a 17k ward crit)

you get 15-17k without crit even now .

make them critable or add 10 sek cast cd. or bring other 2 underdog classes up to sorc lvl.

pls tell me what chanse magic user/ nm the class/ have agains the sorc? once you get overal dmg reduce from shields and second you get even higher magic dmg reduce form Harness Magicka ( i wont even count the 100+ cp points you spend on Hardy)
Now you counter me with- everyone can pick Harness ... no we cant unless we play sorc or healer. Harness is useles without light armor 5/5 and only magicka NB can aford to run with 5 light (or healers) If you play dd dk or templar you MUST run 5/5 heavy because lack of mobility. Other way is to stay in the midle of the zerg and hope somene will protect you if you get focused .

Ezareth · November 2015

No...

runkorkoeb17_ESO wrote: »

mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »

runkorkoeb17_ESO wrote: »

Make shields critable, problem solved. One skill make the entire build/crit/ useless. Balance eh...

Nope, that's not a valid option. Not while shields a) can't crit themselves (i.e. I can't get a 17k ward crit)

you get 15-17k without crit even now .

make them critable or add 10 sek cast cd. or bring other 2 underdog classes up to sorc lvl.

pls tell me what chanse magic user/ nm the class/ have agains the sorc? once you get overal dmg reduce from shields and second you get even higher magic dmg reduce form Harness Magicka ( i wont even count the 100+ cp points you spend on Hardy)

I can get 12K with 41,500 magicka and 100 points into Bastion. Only people with 15-17K Wards are Emperors or people making stupid builds to maximize their magicka like Mage Stone and Necropotence, Magelight, Bound aegis togglemancer garbage builds. The players with 1500+ CPs don't exist any more.

Runkorko · November 2015

Yes it should scale of health like 'every other class'

Ezareth wrote: »

runkorkoeb17_ESO wrote: »

mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »

runkorkoeb17_ESO wrote: »

Make shields critable, problem solved. One skill make the entire build/crit/ useless. Balance eh...

Nope, that's not a valid option. Not while shields a) can't crit themselves (i.e. I can't get a 17k ward crit)

you get 15-17k without crit even now .

make them critable or add 10 sek cast cd. or bring other 2 underdog classes up to sorc lvl.

pls tell me what chanse magic user/ nm the class/ have agains the sorc? once you get overal dmg reduce from shields and second you get even higher magic dmg reduce form Harness Magicka ( i wont even count the 100+ cp points you spend on Hardy)

I can get 12K with 41,500 magicka and 100 points into Bastion. Only people with 15-17K Wards are Emperors or people making stupid builds to maximize their magicka like Mage Stone and Necropotence, Magelight, Bound aegis togglemancer garbage builds. The players with 1500+ CPs don't exist any more.

We talk abou the shields and you can EASILY stack 15k withou 100 point in bastion and without emperor(and is spamable) I give up. I play templar and sorcs cant kill me / if we match the skills/ and i just move away. Seems you guys love the lack of balance. Enjoy it then. And pls, dont forgeth the exploits, this make it even more funy to play. Cheers.

Makkir · November 2015

olsborg wrote: »

Would be cool to check out a crit build as magicka sorc relying on surge heals to stay alive, would be awesome to drop restostaff.

@olsborg

I did this back when IC was on PTS. That was exactly my thinking. The reason I since ditched it was because it seemed like everyone was running some sort of shield. I even had my crit chance up to 65%. In PvE it was awesome.

Xeven · November 2015

No...

I don't know why you guys are arguing with them to be honest. The very title of the thread screams there is no rational conversation to be had here.

We all know they will never scale off of health, and we all know that other classes are just as hard to kill if not harder. Let these people circle jerk each other in their own blissful ignorance.

Runkorko · November 2015

Yes it should scale of health like 'every other class'

Xeven wrote: »

and we all know that other classes are just as hard to kill if not harder. Let these people circle jerk each other in their own blissful ignorance.

just LOL

tennant94 · November 2015

No...

Never! Its a spell cast by a mage it should scale off magic.

Maulkin · November 2015

No...

runkorkoeb17_ESO wrote: »

Ezareth wrote: »

runkorkoeb17_ESO wrote: »

mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »

runkorkoeb17_ESO wrote: »

Make shields critable, problem solved. One skill make the entire build/crit/ useless. Balance eh...

Nope, that's not a valid option. Not while shields a) can't crit themselves (i.e. I can't get a 17k ward crit)

you get 15-17k without crit even now .

make them critable or add 10 sek cast cd. or bring other 2 underdog classes up to sorc lvl.

pls tell me what chanse magic user/ nm the class/ have agains the sorc? once you get overal dmg reduce from shields and second you get even higher magic dmg reduce form Harness Magicka ( i wont even count the 100+ cp points you spend on Hardy)

I can get 12K with 41,500 magicka and 100 points into Bastion. Only people with 15-17K Wards are Emperors or people making stupid builds to maximize their magicka like Mage Stone and Necropotence, Magelight, Bound aegis togglemancer garbage builds. The players with 1500+ CPs don't exist any more.

We talk abou the shields and you can EASILY stack 15k withou 100 point in bastion and without emperor(and is spamable) I give up. I play templar and sorcs cant kill me / if we match the skills/ and i just move away. Seems you guys love the lack of balance. Enjoy it then. And pls, dont forgeth the exploits, this make it even more funy to play. Cheers.

You might as well give up if you can't read. No one here is saying the harness + hardened shield stack is not OP. We're just saying that individual shield strength is not the problem or the fact they can't be crit.

And what have the exploits got to do with anything?

Runkorko · November 2015

Yes it should scale of health like 'every other class'

mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »

runkorkoeb17_ESO wrote: »

Ezareth wrote: »

runkorkoeb17_ESO wrote: »

mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »

runkorkoeb17_ESO wrote: »

Make shields critable, problem solved. One skill make the entire build/crit/ useless. Balance eh...

Nope, that's not a valid option. Not while shields a) can't crit themselves (i.e. I can't get a 17k ward crit)

you get 15-17k without crit even now .

make them critable or add 10 sek cast cd. or bring other 2 underdog classes up to sorc lvl.

pls tell me what chanse magic user/ nm the class/ have agains the sorc? once you get overal dmg reduce from shields and second you get even higher magic dmg reduce form Harness Magicka ( i wont even count the 100+ cp points you spend on Hardy)

I can get 12K with 41,500 magicka and 100 points into Bastion. Only people with 15-17K Wards are Emperors or people making stupid builds to maximize their magicka like Mage Stone and Necropotence, Magelight, Bound aegis togglemancer garbage builds. The players with 1500+ CPs don't exist any more.

We talk abou the shields and you can EASILY stack 15k withou 100 point in bastion and without emperor(and is spamable) I give up. I play templar and sorcs cant kill me / if we match the skills/ and i just move away. Seems you guys love the lack of balance. Enjoy it then. And pls, dont forgeth the exploits, this make it even more funy to play. Cheers.

No one here is saying the harness + hardened shield stack is not OP. We're just saying that individual shield strength is not the problem or the fact they can't be crit.

Do you see ANY sorc runing with only one shield ? So shield stacking is OP,even you cant deni it, but you stil vote no ? seems legit. Open your eyes and start thinking, or soon we will have cyrodil fool of sorcs and nb`s + some random class colored zergs ... Oh waith , he already look like this. Do you enjoy it ?

And i`l tell you what exploits have with all this. I know players, good players, and i watch them on twitch.tv and when they found a bug/inbalance/ or exploit they say - I'll report it, but they never do. Gues why ?:) Most of the players dont go to PTS to find and report bugs, they go only to pick /before others/ the most op skills and to "rule" in cyro. Is the same with inbalanced skills. We all know if we report them to ZoS and IF they balance them we will FINALY have a slight chanse to enjoy a game which is not based on OP classes or skills but is based of player skills to play. But what we do, we find this skills and we "exploit" them on max feeding our ego. Is sad. Many move already, more will follow. Pity.

Maulkin · November 2015

No...

runkorkoeb17_ESO wrote: »

mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »

runkorkoeb17_ESO wrote: »

Ezareth wrote: »

runkorkoeb17_ESO wrote: »

mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »

runkorkoeb17_ESO wrote: »

Make shields critable, problem solved. One skill make the entire build/crit/ useless. Balance eh...

Nope, that's not a valid option. Not while shields a) can't crit themselves (i.e. I can't get a 17k ward crit)

you get 15-17k without crit even now .

make them critable or add 10 sek cast cd. or bring other 2 underdog classes up to sorc lvl.

pls tell me what chanse magic user/ nm the class/ have agains the sorc? once you get overal dmg reduce from shields and second you get even higher magic dmg reduce form Harness Magicka ( i wont even count the 100+ cp points you spend on Hardy)

I can get 12K with 41,500 magicka and 100 points into Bastion. Only people with 15-17K Wards are Emperors or people making stupid builds to maximize their magicka like Mage Stone and Necropotence, Magelight, Bound aegis togglemancer garbage builds. The players with 1500+ CPs don't exist any more.

We talk abou the shields and you can EASILY stack 15k withou 100 point in bastion and without emperor(and is spamable) I give up. I play templar and sorcs cant kill me / if we match the skills/ and i just move away. Seems you guys love the lack of balance. Enjoy it then. And pls, dont forgeth the exploits, this make it even more funy to play. Cheers.

No one here is saying the harness + hardened shield stack is not OP. We're just saying that individual shield strength is not the problem or the fact they can't be crit.

Do you see ANY sorc runing with only one shield ? So shield stacking is OP,even you cant deni it, but you stil vote no ? seems legit. Open your eyes and start thinking, or soon we will have cyrodil fool of sorcs and nb`s + some random class colored zergs ... Oh waith , he already look like this. Do you enjoy it ?

I'm gonna stop arguing with you now because you have very obvious comprehension problems. If the shield-stack is what's OP why would I vote yes to nerf individual shield strength? That would make my Hardened Ward extremely weak against stamina attacks that ignore the harness stack already.

Whatever man, keep your QQ and have a nice day

Runkorko · November 2015

Yes it should scale of health like 'every other class'

mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »

runkorkoeb17_ESO wrote: »

mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »

runkorkoeb17_ESO wrote: »

Ezareth wrote: »

runkorkoeb17_ESO wrote: »

mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »

runkorkoeb17_ESO wrote: »

Make shields critable, problem solved. One skill make the entire build/crit/ useless. Balance eh...

Nope, that's not a valid option. Not while shields a) can't crit themselves (i.e. I can't get a 17k ward crit)

you get 15-17k without crit even now .

make them critable or add 10 sek cast cd. or bring other 2 underdog classes up to sorc lvl.

pls tell me what chanse magic user/ nm the class/ have agains the sorc? once you get overal dmg reduce from shields and second you get even higher magic dmg reduce form Harness Magicka ( i wont even count the 100+ cp points you spend on Hardy)

I can get 12K with 41,500 magicka and 100 points into Bastion. Only people with 15-17K Wards are Emperors or people making stupid builds to maximize their magicka like Mage Stone and Necropotence, Magelight, Bound aegis togglemancer garbage builds. The players with 1500+ CPs don't exist any more.

We talk abou the shields and you can EASILY stack 15k withou 100 point in bastion and without emperor(and is spamable) I give up. I play templar and sorcs cant kill me / if we match the skills/ and i just move away. Seems you guys love the lack of balance. Enjoy it then. And pls, dont forgeth the exploits, this make it even more funy to play. Cheers.

No one here is saying the harness + hardened shield stack is not OP. We're just saying that individual shield strength is not the problem or the fact they can't be crit.

Do you see ANY sorc runing with only one shield ? So shield stacking is OP,even you cant deni it, but you stil vote no ? seems legit. Open your eyes and start thinking, or soon we will have cyrodil fool of sorcs and nb`s + some random class colored zergs ... Oh waith , he already look like this. Do you enjoy it ?

I'm gonna stop arguing with you now because you have very obvious comprehension problems. If the shield-stack is what's OP why would I vote yes to nerf individual shield strength? That would make my Hardened Ward extremely weak against stamina attacks that ignore the harness stack already.

Whatever man, keep your QQ and have a nice day

Keep your wishes. If you think i QQ then you have some serious problems to. If they fix it with inc class changes, will be nice. If they dont ... Well we have milion choises. Whatever.