Time to revisit the magicka dual-wielding Vs. staff debate.

_Chaos · November 2015

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Oh_Skrivva · November 2015

I wanna know how joy got a near 700 sp increase. My sp unbuff 2553 with staff and 2789 with sword

Alucardo · November 2015

Oh_Skrivva wrote: »

I wanna know how joy got a near 700 sp increase. My sp unbuff 2553 with staff and 2789 with sword

I thought it was roughly a 200+ increase between dual wielding and a staff. I think mine went up even higher because of the torug's stats and increased quality

WillhelmBlack · November 2015

Oh_Skrivva wrote: »

I wanna know how joy got a near 700 sp increase. My sp unbuff 2553 with staff and 2789 with sword

Think it's because the pictures were before this update.

WillhelmBlack · November 2015

Undefwun wrote: »

From the patch notes:

Dual Wield
Twin Blade and Blunt:
Updated the tooltip to clarify the conditions of each bonus. For example, having a sword equipped increases damage on all attacks, not just basic attacks or skills from this ability line.

Adjusted the axe bonus so the bleed damage is increased, but now has a lower proc chance. This fixes an issue where, previously, the bleed was not dealing damage because it was being reapplied too quickly.

The sword bonus no longer grants a percent bonus to Weapon Damage and Spell Damage (a change that was made for the Imperial City update). It once again modifies all damage as a direct bonus.

This explains why it's only a 25 increase in Spell Power. The damage bonus is in the tooltip.

Oh_Skrivva · November 2015

I thought it was roughly a 200+ increase between dual wielding and a staff. I think mine went up even higher because of the torug's stats and increased quality[/quote]

@alucard how much did yours increase? cause my weapons are also gold v16 nirn torugs pieces

ChefZero · November 2015

Maybe they should change Penetrating Magic passiv from destro. Problem is, DW and 2H got 5% overall more damage with passiv. Destro is very weak, if you don't wanna use destroabilities atm. But 10% overall magicpenetration while destro equipped would change a lot. In PvE and PvP.

Shunravi · November 2015

I love that im not tied to a staff for spells. I love that i can use a 2h and ve a viable caster. I guess its a lonely sentiment...

But i do agree, staff needs a buff.

Alucardo · November 2015

Oh_Skrivva wrote: »

@alucard how much did yours increase? cause my weapons are also gold v16 nirn torugs pieces

To properly test I crafted a couple of pieces of torug's gear for the destro staff setup. That was at 1600.
Without the torug's gear but 2 torug's swords it was 2160, so we're looking at around a 500 spell damage difference.

Alucardo · November 2015

Suffice it to say I might stick with stam builds. I don't have to equip a staff to get 3k weapon damage.

WillhelmBlack · November 2015

Alucardo wrote: »

Oh_Skrivva wrote: »

@alucard how much did yours increase? cause my weapons are also gold v16 nirn torugs pieces

To properly test I crafted a couple of pieces of torug's gear for the destro staff setup. That was at 1600.
Without the torug's gear but 2 torug's swords it was 2160, so we're looking at around a 500 spell damage difference.

I compared the difference with 1 hat and Resto, and 1 hat and 2 swords. All pieces were Torugs Pact.

NativeJoe · November 2015

Eh, in my builds the difference between using a staff and DW is 1000 spell power difference. 1000 difference is only going to increase as I update my gear. and that is just ludicrous. I'm Not saying nerf anything. but bring the other stuff up to par. Because the differences are just to large at this point.

Dexter411 · November 2015

Great job. In ny magicka DK build: with two swords i get THE SAME weapon damage as spell damagae with staff. This does not make any sense, why? beacuse i have only one point in passive for bonus off hand dmg, one passive and my des staff tree is at 50 with all passives.
That is not the only problem i have. While even thinking of stam build i end up(most of the time) with at least 2 abilites from weapon skill tree while in magicka build i could easly go with all class abilites(lack of diversity with stamina). But that is for another discussion.

Merlin13KAGL · November 2015

Shunravi wrote: »

I love that im not tied to a staff for spells. I love that i can use a 2h and ve a viable caster. I guess its a lonely sentiment...

But i do agree, staff needs a buff.

@Shunravi, sorry for the late response (work and such).

You should absolutely not be tied to a particular weapon set either way. The weapon choice should compliment/supplement your class abilities, not define them.

With present design, casters are "tied" to dual wield/Greatsword if they want to have max SD, and it shouldn't be that way.

Similar results should be able to be achieved without having to have very specific builds/attributes/weapon choices.

The current meta does not promote diversity at all.

Out of curiosity, do you use any 2H skills or actually use the weapon in combat, or do you use it for the increased SD?

(Not judging either way, as it is what it is at the moment and will stay that way until they fix it.)

kupacmac · November 2015

I have two questions about this topic for those using DW or 2H on a magicka Sorc:

What is your main spam attack for single target and for AoE?
Do you stand in melee range and weave in light attacks (i.e. cancel animations)?

Khaos_Bane · November 2015

It just tells you something abut the Destro Staff actives and passives when people are dual wielding swords or choosing to cast with two handed skill weapons.

Yeah Destruction staff has become near obsolete. The active skills and passives really need a lot of work.

Cryhavoc · November 2015

I support any changes that do not include a nerf.

Buff staff damage, especially to counter balance the missing potential set piece by going with a two-handed weapon.

Shunravi · November 2015

Merlin13KAGL wrote: »

Shunravi wrote: »

I love that im not tied to a staff for spells. I love that i can use a 2h and ve a viable caster. I guess its a lonely sentiment...

But i do agree, staff needs a buff.

@Shunravi, sorry for the late response (work and such).

You should absolutely not be tied to a particular weapon set either way. The weapon choice should compliment/supplement your class abilities, not define them.

With present design, casters are "tied" to dual wield/Greatsword if they want to have max SD, and it shouldn't be that way.

Similar results should be able to be achieved without having to have very specific builds/attributes/weapon choices.

The current meta does not promote diversity at all.

Out of curiosity, do you use any 2H skills or actually use the weapon in combat, or do you use it for the increased SD?

(Not judging either way, as it is what it is at the moment and will stay that way until they fix it.)

@Merlin13KAGL it's good

I use it because I like 2h weapons and magic. No other reason really. And I hate staves in general. I would have a stronger build with dw. I've played around with going hybrid with it, but that's mostly for fun. I did manage to get a slightly higher aoe dps than usual once with brawler and sap essence. But it's not something to rely on.

I have been going back and forth between majica and stamina and a variety of hybrids for a while. Usually to keep from being bored.

I know I'm not alone in liking spellswording, but again, I do believe destro/resto needs love.

zerosingularity · November 2015

kupacmac wrote: »

I have two questions about this topic for those using DW or 2H on a magicka Sorc:
What is your main spam attack for single target and for AoE?

Do you stand in melee range and weave in light attacks (i.e. cancel animations)?

For a Magicka Sorc, you either spam Trapping Webs (PVP mostly), Curse, Daedric Mines(PVP mostly), Liquid Lightning, Or Mage's Fury (Can't forget Overload on DW bar!). Most still use Destruction Staffs and weave Crushing Shock and medium fire staff attacks for dps.

I agree that the sheer gap in damage between destro and swords needs to close, it has gotten way out of hand.

C0pp3rhead · November 2015

Wow, @Joy_Division, great work as usual. As a fellow Templar with a poorly matched race (Argonian), I completely agree. As a healer, I rely on healing springs for my large group heals and BoL for my "Oh S***" moments. For the most part, large scale PvP is the mainstay of this game for me. (I'm completely burnt out on slogging through 2-3 hours of mob grinds just to pray to RNGesus. None of my pledge helms have good traits, and after 50-some-odd DSA/VDSA runs before I quit I got 5 master weapons, none with good traits, 3 of which are bows.)

My take on the Resto Staff line is much like yours:
Regeneration takes some of the pressure off those heavy-healing moments, but isn't necessary when running with an experienced pve group.
Combat prayer is only useful for the damage buff, which most players now receive from their own skills anyway. Its only use now is in trials.
As a templar, it's counter-productive to cast a damage shield on 1 person when BoL helps everyone, but I can see the benefit for non-templar healers.
Siphon Spirit only helps in boss battles, and as with regeneration isn't super necessary when running with an experienced pve group. It's most useful in trials.

As you said, healers are expected to contribute to dps nowadays. As you can see from the above, whether in PvP or PvE the only skill a capable healer with an experienced team might use is Healing Springs. And, as you said once again, not only does RS gimp my damage, it gimps my healing as well. We've both seen videos of healers who focus on DPS and use nothing but BoL to support their groupmates. It is completely asinine that many of the game's best healers are running around with swords.

Alas, this is just one of the many small (and easily fixable) oddities that are driving people away.

Trihugger · November 2015

zerosingularity wrote: »

kupacmac wrote: »

I have two questions about this topic for those using DW or 2H on a magicka Sorc:
What is your main spam attack for single target and for AoE?

Do you stand in melee range and weave in light attacks (i.e. cancel animations)?

For a Magicka Sorc, you either spam Trapping Webs (PVP mostly), Curse, Daedric Mines(PVP mostly), Liquid Lightning, Or Mage's Fury (Can't forget Overload on DW bar!). Most still use Destruction Staffs and weave Crushing Shock and medium fire staff attacks for dps.

I agree that the sheer gap in damage between destro and swords needs to close, it has gotten way out of hand.

This guy hit it pretty much on the head but I'm going to expand a bit. For PvE you cannot even begin to have a prayer for sustaining your damage without using a destruction staff in the way he mentioned. Let me explain why: elemental drain + that resto staff ability's name that escapes me (<3 healers that use both).

Force pulse costs about 500 magicka less than Trapping Webs and you will not be able to Medium weave. Considering the mana difference, that equates to roughly two procs of elemental drain you're not receiving per however long it takes you to attack (roughly ~1.5s). The amount of "stuff" you'd have to do to facilitate this deficit (Atronach mundus, Minimum 2 Reduced Cost Runes on Jewelry, etc) wholly negate any benefit received otherwise. (You also run into some serious problems if you consider CP points as you'd still spend in Elemental Expert since overload + liquid lightning + mage's wrath remain the bulk of your damage).

TL;DR - For PvE Sorcerers there is no viable work around to using a Destruction Staff. Quite frankly Magicka sorcerers are only "cutting edge" viable because of overload. You take that away and the whole thing implodes.

p_tsakirisb16_ESO · November 2015

You miss the point guys.

Yes DW provides more base spell power than Staff. However with staff you have some abilities you can use in a Magicka build that can turn the tip of balance compared to DW.

If they give to staves the same spell power they give to DW or 2H, there are going to be gazillion posts for nerfing the damage & utility that exists in the Destro or Resto line.

Trihugger · November 2015

p_tsakirisb16_ESO wrote: »

You miss the point guys.

Yes DW provides more base spell power than Staff. However with staff you have some abilities you can use in a Magicka build that can turn the tip of balance compared to DW.

If they give to staves the same spell power they give to DW or 2H, there are going to be gazillion posts for nerfing the damage & utility that exists in the Destro or Resto line.

I think you're very much so overplaying the utility at least in the destruction staff skill line.

Speaking from a Sorcerer DPS perspective(albeit limited in scope but it is the only thing I know back and forth), the only utility that's typically viable is the ranged interrupt of Force Pulse. I grant you it is amazing and extremely handy. Now any other Destruction Staff ability we slot comes at a theoretical price (for Sorcerers at least of 2% spell power, and anyone 2% magicka from Mage's Guild), but we typically have room only for one as Inner Light, Bound Aegis, and Crystal Fragments MUST be on the same bar as Force Pulse. Honestly that one extra typically goes to Pulsar as we've got no other spam AoE.

In vMSA I do believe the go-to setup is to drop Pulsar for Elemental Drain (which by the way LOST some utility with Force Pulse's damage now hitting all at once).

The other two abilities... Well Wall of Elements is so *** poor it speaks for itself. Melting... Yea about as fast as an icecube melts in Antarctica. Quite frankly that skill is only even a relevant topic of debate because the troll Dev's made the Maelstrom Arena Destruction Stave enchant involve it. The second is Destructive Touch which is by far and large a PvP ability as the damage is horrid for the magicka cost but it has some special effects. It's not particularly good and I do believe every class save maybe DK has something far more useful they can use instead.

So... I ask you... What is this perplexing and utterly awe inspiring utility you're speaking of that warrants such a steep differential in damage?

willymchilybily · November 2015

isn't it kind of a break even situation? or am i being naive.

The flat numbers have a big disparity but you cant heavy attack with DW for magicka return or stay range and gain ult from Light and Heavy Attacks. So you need sustain from jewlery and sets. but with Destro/Resto staff you can sustain and weave for ult, so can run higher spell power on gear and jewelry?

or do people just go flat spell damage on everything and chug pots for regen?

I do think the passives for starves are good and if they applied to more than just the staff abilities (acted more as a passive buff for having a staff equiped) They would tip the balance. Though it may be OP if Nirnhoned destro staff suddenly gave 28% penetration to all abilities not just destruction staff abilities.

Jitterbug · November 2015

Dude, what a post! Awesome work, and great insight.

edit: while I do get more spell power with dw swords I still much prefer my staff for weaving and destro reach.

Snowgoons · November 2015

Its yet again a no brainer that staffs should trump dual wield when it comes to spell damage and magicka, what ZOS was thinking by not addressing this is beyond me.

I'd also like to see a tomb weapon line where you hold a book out that flips through its pages on attacks and stuff

and a wand and orb weapon line.

ZOS please don't just let a thread like this happen, then remain silent on the topic.......hiding.........actually address this issue at least, and then add some more weapon options for "casters'

Kutsuu · November 2015

At least in the case of NBs, i feel DW vs Dstaff is pretty well balanced. DW gives you higher hits, but Dstaff gives some key advantages that must be considered when comparing them.

First is cloaking. When you cloak, you have ~2.9s to do something. With a Dstaff, you can charge a full heavy attack and weave it with another attack (such as swallow soul or cripple). With some CPs into staff light/heavy attacks, it’s not uncommon to see 7-8k heavy attack crits in PVP against marked targets. On top of this, it is “free” damage and is great on your resource sustain. With DW, you could also charge up a heavy attack but it will do far less damage and will put you in melee range trying to land it.

Second is Assassin’s Will. It’s magic damage so scales with Thaumaturge and does massive burst damage (especially if you min/max it with the increased dmg/snare morph, might of the guild, and death stroke). It’s far easier to trigger this with Dstaff light/heavy attacks, which also do good damage and fit into your normal rotation.

So like I said... I think Dstaff vs DW is balanced for NBs at the least. Maybe there should be more synergies with light/heavy attacks in the Sorc lineup that help to bridge the gap.

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO · November 2015

5/8 of my Characters are stamina and even I agree with this the Range argument was used by me in the past but magic has no Melee magic weapons so come on ZoS magic and Stamina agree no downsides here

Vangy · November 2015

Hmmm. Mostly agree here but does this mean bows needs be buffed too? Since we are throwing ranged/meelee out the window?

Septimus_Magna · November 2015

The difference is pretty big on max spell dmg builds.

In the picture below Im wearing 5x Julianos/1x Molag Kena/3x Willpower/2-3x Torugs Pact (all v16 gold).

On my destro staff bar I have 3221 spell dmg.
On my DW bar I have 3675 spell dmg.
The difference is 454 spell dmg.