Magicka Sorc vs. DK Flappy Wings

josh.lackey_ESO · October 2015

I find that, as a magicka sorcerer, I can fare pretty well against every class except Dragonknight because of Reflective Scale. Once they start flapping their wings, I know the fight is going to be a stalemate, and just start spamming encase on them to be annoying. (I usually like to play fair, but I will definitely counter cheap tactics with cheap tactics -- often relentlessly.)

I know that I can use Curse and Fury, but that will never be enough to kill them. I keep Encase, Lightning Splash, and Volcanic Rune on my Overload bar. I try to keep them rooted in Lightning Splash and use Volcanic Rune and Overload Heavy Attack to kill them, but frankly, it's still not usually enough burst.

I'm level 40 right now. I don't have bolt or mines yet, and realize they might be helpful when I get them. But until then, does anyone have advice on how I can fight DKs with flappy wings?

Forestd16b14_ESO · October 2015

You know it's cause of players similar to this whole topic why DKs are nearly dead in both PvP and PvE. Maybe when you see a Dragon Knight use reflective scales you can stop the crystal fragment spam for 4 seconds cause that's how long it last you know sure you can go 4 seconds with out using your almighty frags and even if you can stop your almighty frag spam it can only reflect 4 projectiles. Really if your getting killed or "stalemate" by that you sorely need a new strategy.

Just saying.

Xeven · October 2015

Curse
Magicka Detonation
Soul Assault
Lightning/Restoration Staff heavy attacks
Atronach
Dawnbreaker
Mines
Rune Prison
Streak
Overload heavy attacks
Frags when they forget to flap

josh.lackey_ESO · October 2015

Forestd16b14_ESO wrote: »

You know it's cause of players similar to this whole topic why DKs are nearly dead in both PvP and PvE. Maybe when you see a Dragon Knight use reflective scales you can stop the crystal fragment spam for 4 seconds cause that's how long it last you know sure you can go 4 seconds with out using your almighty frags and even if you can stop your almighty frag spam it can only reflect 4 projectiles. Really if your getting killed or "stalemate" by that you sorely need a new strategy.

Just saying.

I am not sure if you are trolling or what. I started this topic looking for help with a "learn to play" kind solution to something I struggle with in pvp. I started this topic exactly because I was looking for "a new strategy".

WreckfulAbandon · October 2015

Xeven wrote: »

Curse
Magicka Detonation
Soul Assault
Lightning/Restoration Staff heavy attacks
Atronach
Dawnbreaker
Mines
Rune Prison
Streak
Overload heavy attacks
Frags when they forget to flap

Pretty much this, also streak thru them and hit them while stunned and in close range with frags/overload, it's harder to reflect from right in their face.

Peel_Ya_Cap_517 · October 2015

You need to do Soul Strike on them

AshTal · October 2015

I have a very similar issue, I am speced to be a healer so I have very little damage on my bar. They do reflective scale every 4 seconds, so unless I can stun them I can't get a crystal frag off. The only other damage I have his curse, then my AOE's mines and volcanic rune. One of One I can't beat a DK as I always seem to run out of healing, shields and mana before he runs out of stamina/magic.

I do wonder if its because I face uber DK's and come the CP cap it wont be so one sided.

Most of the time I find running the best option. Fighting leads to me dying few mines running seems to work better than the drawn out 5 min battle ending in my death.

DannyLV702 · October 2015

Cast defensive rune, throw a frag and watch them stun themselves when they reflect lol. I find it cute when they flap their wings at my inevitable det + curse + streak combo lol. Once they're stunned my frag will be proc'd by then and let them eat it

Amica · October 2015

Xeven wrote: »

Curse
Magicka Detonation
Soul Assault
Lightning/Restoration Staff heavy attacks
Atronach
Dawnbreaker
Mines
Rune Prison
Streak
Overload heavy attacks
Frags when they forget to flap

HACKS ^
i want three ultimate's during combat.

eliisra · October 2015

It's really hard for baby sorcs to kill magicka DK's. Whoever calls it "l2p issue" is wrong. You need to unlock Detonation + Streak and plop down mines, before you can laugh at magicka DK's. Before that your best bet is Defensive Rune up and save burst + ulti until they're cc'ed and little lower on health, than go full out

But no worries, gets way easier.

Sadly cant say the same for a magicka DK+ templar, they will always have a hard time, like might as well give up hard, against magicka sorc. Doesn't matter what skills they learn later on, not enough mobility to keep up and not enough dmg to break x3 shields.

Alucardo · October 2015

Amica wrote: »

HACKS ^
i want three ultimate's during combat.

They were options, not a build bruh

Alucardo · October 2015

Always wondered what would happen if a Sorc threw a frag, the DK reflected it with wings, then the sorc casted defensive posture. Would they play tennis?

DannyLV702 · October 2015

Alucardo wrote: »

Always wondered what would happen if a Sorc threw a frag, the DK reflected it with wings, then the sorc casted defensive posture. Would they play tennis?

Yes, that's exactly what happens. I tried it soon after the IC patch because i started seeing Flappy Wings more often. Usually the DK doesn't reflect it again because he doesn't expect us to reflect our own frag back hahaha its's an awesome sight to see

Alucardo · October 2015

DannyLV702 wrote: »

Yes, that's exactly what happens. I tried it soon after the IC patch because i started seeing Flappy Wings more often. Usually the DK doesn't reflect it again because he doesn't expect us to reflect our own frag back hahaha its's an awesome sight to see

That's freaking hilarious, and brilliant

josh.lackey_ESO · October 2015

Xeven wrote: »

Curse
Magicka Detonation
Soul Assault
Lightning/Restoration Staff heavy attacks
Atronach
Dawnbreaker
Mines
Rune Prison
Streak
Overload heavy attacks
Frags when they forget to flap

These are really good ideas. I actually run with Lightning/Resto and overload. I don't use the Atronach, but I might give it a try.

Sadly, I don't have Magicka Det, Dawnbreaker, Mines, or Streak.

I have Rune Prison but I am not sure how it helps in this situation. Can you explain how you would use it? Use it to CC followed by an immediate frag?

Stoney_McGeee · October 2015

Alucardo wrote: »

Always wondered what would happen if a Sorc threw a frag, the DK reflected it with wings, then the sorc casted defensive posture. Would they play tennis?

I'm pretty sure there's a limit, it can only be reflected twice.
That's why i like to use something like entropy , reflective , metoer then reflect just in case. (If only reflective wasn't so broken either though)

k2blader · October 2015

josh.lackey_ESO wrote: »

Forestd16b14_ESO wrote: »

You know it's cause of players similar to this whole topic why DKs are nearly dead in both PvP and PvE. Maybe when you see a Dragon Knight use reflective scales you can stop the crystal fragment spam for 4 seconds cause that's how long it last you know sure you can go 4 seconds with out using your almighty frags and even if you can stop your almighty frag spam it can only reflect 4 projectiles. Really if your getting killed or "stalemate" by that you sorely need a new strategy.

Just saying.

I am not sure if you are trolling or what. I started this topic looking for help with a "learn to play" kind solution to something I struggle with in pvp. I started this topic exactly because I was looking for "a new strategy".

He is basically trolling. For some reason, players of formerly OP DKs that could endlessly reflect every kind of projectile blame sorcs for Zeni properly taking away that height of their class' ridiculousness.

Xeven's post is great advice.

Forestd16b14_ESO · October 2015

k2blader wrote: »

josh.lackey_ESO wrote: »

Forestd16b14_ESO wrote: »

You know it's cause of players similar to this whole topic why DKs are nearly dead in both PvP and PvE. Maybe when you see a Dragon Knight use reflective scales you can stop the crystal fragment spam for 4 seconds cause that's how long it last you know sure you can go 4 seconds with out using your almighty frags and even if you can stop your almighty frag spam it can only reflect 4 projectiles. Really if your getting killed or "stalemate" by that you sorely need a new strategy.

Just saying.

I am not sure if you are trolling or what. I started this topic looking for help with a "learn to play" kind solution to something I struggle with in pvp. I started this topic exactly because I was looking for "a new strategy".

He is basically trolling. For some reason, players of formerly OP DKs that could endlessly reflect every kind of projectile blame sorcs for Zeni properly taking away that height of their class' ridiculousness.

Xeven's post is great advice.

No that was not a troll post it's a serious statement that if he can not beat a DK because all the DK does is use reflective scales then he needs to adopt a new plan or re roll a new class not come onto the forums a cry because his crystal frags get reflect and knocks him down.

It's cause of crying threads like this why DKs got nerfed to begin with and why we have yet to be buffed cause sorcs who spam crystal frags are still crying that there getting hit by there own rocks instead of the DKs either though again it only last for 4 seconds only reflects 4 projectiles and can clearly be seen when it cast. The only way to use it now is as a quick act counter as in we have to wait for the sorc to start lifting there hands and summoning the shards to use the scales other wise they wont use it till our scales effect is over which again isn't a long time.

Like really most other sorcs can agree that scales is laughably easy to avoid/counter.

Cinnamon_Spider · October 2015

Forestd16b14_ESO wrote: »

k2blader wrote: »

josh.lackey_ESO wrote: »

Forestd16b14_ESO wrote: »

You know it's cause of players similar to this whole topic why DKs are nearly dead in both PvP and PvE. Maybe when you see a Dragon Knight use reflective scales you can stop the crystal fragment spam for 4 seconds cause that's how long it last you know sure you can go 4 seconds with out using your almighty frags and even if you can stop your almighty frag spam it can only reflect 4 projectiles. Really if your getting killed or "stalemate" by that you sorely need a new strategy.

Just saying.

I am not sure if you are trolling or what. I started this topic looking for help with a "learn to play" kind solution to something I struggle with in pvp. I started this topic exactly because I was looking for "a new strategy".

He is basically trolling. For some reason, players of formerly OP DKs that could endlessly reflect every kind of projectile blame sorcs for Zeni properly taking away that height of their class' ridiculousness.

Xeven's post is great advice.

No that was not a troll post it's a serious statement that if he can not beat a DK because all the DK does is use reflective scales then he needs to adopt a new plan or re roll a new class not come onto the forums a cry because his crystal frags get reflect and knocks him down.

It's cause of crying threads like this why DKs got nerfed to begin with and why we have yet to be buffed cause sorcs who spam crystal frags are still crying that there getting hit by there own rocks instead of the DKs either though again it only last for 4 seconds only reflects 4 projectiles and can clearly be seen when it cast. The only way to use it now is as a quick act counter as in we have to wait for the sorc to start lifting there hands and summoning the shards to use the scales other wise they wont use it till our scales effect is over which again isn't a long time.

Like really most other sorcs can agree that scales is laughably easy to avoid/counter.

I think you're overreacting a bit to the OP. He's only level 40 and asking for advice. I don't know of any sorcs that complain about DKs, or their wings, and he wasn't saying that DKs need nerfed either.

Johngo0036 · October 2015

Hi,

I use webs on the undaunted skill line against them..

slows them down and cannot be reflected...

Curse,
webs,
Heavy attack,
Webs,
mages wrath,

And frags when it is safe to do so....

Also use boundless storm or one of those as it can proc disintergration..

Cinnamon_Spider · October 2015

Johngo0036 wrote: »

Hi,

I use webs on the undaunted skill line against them..

slows them down and cannot be reflected...

Did that change at some point? I tried to use that skill back before 1.6 (cause spiders), but it would get reflected and I'd be stuck in a slow walk until I relogged.

Winterpsy · October 2015

On my DK, my favourite encounters are sorcerers. Stam dk, so not enought stam to use flappy wings, but shield&sword deflect magic is low cost, and always works, not to mention it's a sneaky skill, not so obvious like flappy wings. (unless you can spot the shimmer on the character mid-combat).
So OP's problem can be extended to other tanks, since s&b can be accessed by anyone. This topped with higher than avarage spell resistance, and say you encounter a DK with chains equipped, often it ends badly for magic ranged users. (destro staffers included).

When they give me a hard time it's usually the following:

Bolt-stunning me.
Staying behind their minefield, circling around (most tanks are usually melee)
Soul strike (gods I hate this!!!)
Encase
Lightning staff heavy attacks (cant be reflected, but they wont really do much of a damage neither, but at least you wont be faceslapping yourself neither with reflected spells)
Among the sorc skills I keep seeing in my death recap are: endless fury, overload

Avoid at all cost:
Meteor - 9 out of 10 times I send it back
Frags - 9 out of 10 is sent back (unless you use it on a stunned tank, or when he is not aware), and you will run out of stamina for break free, opening yourself for two handed wrecking blow wrecking.

Duels usually end with stalemate anyhow. Sorcs escaping with bolt.

Hope I could help.

Flaminir · October 2015

Cinnamon_Spider wrote: »

Johngo0036 wrote: »

Hi,

I use webs on the undaunted skill line against them..

slows them down and cannot be reflected...

Did that change at some point? I tried to use that skill back before 1.6 (cause spiders), but it would get reflected and I'd be stuck in a slow walk until I relogged.

Nope... tangling webs still counts as a projectile and DOES get reflected.

Alucardo · October 2015

Cinnamon_Spider wrote: »

I think you're overreacting a bit to the OP. He's only level 40 and asking for advice. I don't know of any sorcs that complain about DKs, or their wings, and he wasn't saying that DKs need nerfed either.

Agreed. It was a fairly legit question, especially when you don't have access to mag det, dawnbreaker and soul assault. People need to chill

Derra · October 2015

Amica wrote: »

Xeven wrote: »

Curse
Magicka Detonation
Soul Assault
Lightning/Restoration Staff heavy attacks
Atronach
Dawnbreaker
Mines
Rune Prison
Streak
Overload heavy attacks
Frags when they forget to flap

HACKS ^
i want three ultimate's during combat.

... Overlol bar.

On the topic: A sorc vs DK fight if both are equally skilled is a stalemate unless one of them gets greedy. You won´t be able to kill a good DK on your sorc unless he´s missing key skills (the amount of DKs without reflect is suprisingly high).
That being said: It´s a balanced state as the DK will most likely be unable to kill you aswell. You´re hardcountering each other.

It´s possible to play a sorc with 1h shield for double reflect if the DK is playing without stave/range himself. That´s your best bet.

If it´s a stam dk with a good/balanced setup (S&B + shieldbreaker with magica reg 1x on jewelry or willows path) i´d give the edge to stam dk.
Mag light armor DK i´d give and edge to sorc.
Mag heavy armor DK - well just don´t think about it.

Alucardo · October 2015

Derra wrote: »

On the topic: A sorc vs DK fight if both are equally skilled is a stalemate unless one of them gets greedy. You won´t be able to kill a good DK on your sorc unless he´s missing key skills (the amount of DKs without reflect is suprisingly high).
That being said: It´s a balanced state as the DK will most likely be unable to kill you aswell. You´re hardcountering each other.

It´s possible to play a sorc with 1h shield for double reflect if the DK is playing without stave/range himself. That´s your best bet.

If it´s a stam dk with a good/balanced setup (S&B + shieldbreaker with magica reg 1x on jewelry or willows path) i´d give the edge to stam dk.
Mag light armor DK i´d give and edge to sorc.
Mag heavy armor DK - well just don´t think about it.

Aye. When I see a sorc I generally take a quick bathroom break, refill my drink and grab some snacks. I know I'm gonna be there a while.

Jahosefat · October 2015

Forestd16b14_ESO wrote: »

k2blader wrote: »

josh.lackey_ESO wrote: »

Forestd16b14_ESO wrote: »

You know it's cause of players similar to this whole topic why DKs are nearly dead in both PvP and PvE. Maybe when you see a Dragon Knight use reflective scales you can stop the crystal fragment spam for 4 seconds cause that's how long it last you know sure you can go 4 seconds with out using your almighty frags and even if you can stop your almighty frag spam it can only reflect 4 projectiles. Really if your getting killed or "stalemate" by that you sorely need a new strategy.

Just saying.

I am not sure if you are trolling or what. I started this topic looking for help with a "learn to play" kind solution to something I struggle with in pvp. I started this topic exactly because I was looking for "a new strategy".

He is basically trolling. For some reason, players of formerly OP DKs that could endlessly reflect every kind of projectile blame sorcs for Zeni properly taking away that height of their class' ridiculousness.

Xeven's post is great advice.

No that was not a troll post it's a serious statement that if he can not beat a DK because all the DK does is use reflective scales then he needs to adopt a new plan or re roll a new class not come onto the forums a cry because his crystal frags get reflect and knocks him down.

It's cause of crying threads like this why DKs got nerfed to begin with and why we have yet to be buffed cause sorcs who spam crystal frags are still crying that there getting hit by there own rocks instead of the DKs either though again it only last for 4 seconds only reflects 4 projectiles and can clearly be seen when it cast. The only way to use it now is as a quick act counter as in we have to wait for the sorc to start lifting there hands and summoning the shards to use the scales other wise they wont use it till our scales effect is over which again isn't a long time.

Like really most other sorcs can agree that scales is laughably easy to avoid/counter.

So salty! Wings nerf was well deserved, nostalgia is clouding your judgement.

OP came in asking a question looking for advice, stated he was a new player; the only tears I see are yours (and all this dried dk salt scattered about the forums

).

Derra · October 2015

Jahosefat wrote: »

Forestd16b14_ESO wrote: »

k2blader wrote: »

josh.lackey_ESO wrote: »

Forestd16b14_ESO wrote: »

You know it's cause of players similar to this whole topic why DKs are nearly dead in both PvP and PvE. Maybe when you see a Dragon Knight use reflective scales you can stop the crystal fragment spam for 4 seconds cause that's how long it last you know sure you can go 4 seconds with out using your almighty frags and even if you can stop your almighty frag spam it can only reflect 4 projectiles. Really if your getting killed or "stalemate" by that you sorely need a new strategy.

Just saying.

I am not sure if you are trolling or what. I started this topic looking for help with a "learn to play" kind solution to something I struggle with in pvp. I started this topic exactly because I was looking for "a new strategy".

He is basically trolling. For some reason, players of formerly OP DKs that could endlessly reflect every kind of projectile blame sorcs for Zeni properly taking away that height of their class' ridiculousness.

Xeven's post is great advice.

No that was not a troll post it's a serious statement that if he can not beat a DK because all the DK does is use reflective scales then he needs to adopt a new plan or re roll a new class not come onto the forums a cry because his crystal frags get reflect and knocks him down.

It's cause of crying threads like this why DKs got nerfed to begin with and why we have yet to be buffed cause sorcs who spam crystal frags are still crying that there getting hit by there own rocks instead of the DKs either though again it only last for 4 seconds only reflects 4 projectiles and can clearly be seen when it cast. The only way to use it now is as a quick act counter as in we have to wait for the sorc to start lifting there hands and summoning the shards to use the scales other wise they wont use it till our scales effect is over which again isn't a long time.

Like really most other sorcs can agree that scales is laughably easy to avoid/counter.

So salty! Wings nerf was well deserved, nostalgia is clouding your judgement.

OP came in asking a question looking for advice, stated he was a new player; the only tears I see are yours (and all this dried dk salt scattered about the forums ).

TBH i don´t think the wings nerf was well thought out. It changed nothing on how DKs work in 1v1 and 1v2 situations but killed much of their tankyness in larger battles. Apart from ultimates it´s one of the main reasons why dks are in a not so good spot now.

Jahosefat · October 2015

Derra wrote: »

Jahosefat wrote: »

Forestd16b14_ESO wrote: »

k2blader wrote: »

josh.lackey_ESO wrote: »

Forestd16b14_ESO wrote: »

You know it's cause of players similar to this whole topic why DKs are nearly dead in both PvP and PvE. Maybe when you see a Dragon Knight use reflective scales you can stop the crystal fragment spam for 4 seconds cause that's how long it last you know sure you can go 4 seconds with out using your almighty frags and even if you can stop your almighty frag spam it can only reflect 4 projectiles. Really if your getting killed or "stalemate" by that you sorely need a new strategy.

Just saying.

I am not sure if you are trolling or what. I started this topic looking for help with a "learn to play" kind solution to something I struggle with in pvp. I started this topic exactly because I was looking for "a new strategy".

He is basically trolling. For some reason, players of formerly OP DKs that could endlessly reflect every kind of projectile blame sorcs for Zeni properly taking away that height of their class' ridiculousness.

Xeven's post is great advice.

No that was not a troll post it's a serious statement that if he can not beat a DK because all the DK does is use reflective scales then he needs to adopt a new plan or re roll a new class not come onto the forums a cry because his crystal frags get reflect and knocks him down.

It's cause of crying threads like this why DKs got nerfed to begin with and why we have yet to be buffed cause sorcs who spam crystal frags are still crying that there getting hit by there own rocks instead of the DKs either though again it only last for 4 seconds only reflects 4 projectiles and can clearly be seen when it cast. The only way to use it now is as a quick act counter as in we have to wait for the sorc to start lifting there hands and summoning the shards to use the scales other wise they wont use it till our scales effect is over which again isn't a long time.

Like really most other sorcs can agree that scales is laughably easy to avoid/counter.

So salty! Wings nerf was well deserved, nostalgia is clouding your judgement.

OP came in asking a question looking for advice, stated he was a new player; the only tears I see are yours (and all this dried dk salt scattered about the forums ).

TBH i don´t think the wings nerf was well thought out. It changed nothing on how DKs work in 1v1 and 1v2 situations but killed much of their tankyness in larger battles. Apart from ultimates it´s one of the main reasons why dks are in a not so good spot now.

I'm not saying it was the best direction to take with it, just that an "infinite reflect of all projectiles" was ridiculous and needed to bet toned down. I think they should have limited based on resource consumption, similar to streak but that is another conversation.

Amica · October 2015

Alucardo wrote: »

Always wondered what would happen if a Sorc threw a frag, the DK reflected it with wings, then the sorc casted defensive posture. Would they play tennis?

Not tried it, and tried it on my dk vs another dk with a meteor with the shield reflect instead. ... was hoping to have a good rally

Derra · October 2015

Amica wrote: »

Alucardo wrote: »

Always wondered what would happen if a Sorc threw a frag, the DK reflected it with wings, then the sorc casted defensive posture. Would they play tennis?

Not tried it, and tried it on my dk vs another dk with a meteor with the shield reflect instead. ... was hoping to have a good rally

Reflects are capped at 2 per projectile.

This means Fragments get reflected by the DK. Then the sorc reflects them back at the DK with posture and they will ignore the DKs wings.