Collision detection for players in pvp

Llilium · October 2015

you know what would alter this game entirely and make it amazing? collision detention for players.

ESO's got a very VERY similar style of PvP gameplay that Warhammer online used to have, and it was absolutely the best there was in my oppinion.

there used to be massive shield walls composed of players that used to be composed of tanks to keep attackers from just running in and AOEing everything while flooding the insides of a keep. healers and ranged DPS would tactfully stay in range and melee players knew that over extending meant certain death because you knew the line where yur healer was willing to go and where he was safe.

i know alot of people might disagree because they think its far too messy or people would get stuck on eachother, but warhammer wasn't so much like that. even with 500 players vs another 500 players it didn't cause problems and it was by far one of the most enjoyable aspects about massive scale pvp- people didn't just walk through eachother. if a tank was in your way, then you couldn't just walk though him to kill his buddies.

i doubt this is a change that will ever happen, but man it would be amazing

SirAndy · October 2015

Having "spies" in your own faction running scrolls to the enemy is already bad enough.

Having a bunch of griefers block your path trying to defend a keep/resource/tower/scroll would drive droves of people to rage quit the game for good ...

Llilium · October 2015

collision detection only worked with enemy players, if that's what you mean.

LaughingJack · October 2015

geez, i thought collision detection would have been a must for PvP.

" Having "spies" in your own faction running scrolls to the enemy is already bad enough. " >> Huh?!, how does that work?

" Having a bunch of griefers block your path trying to defend a keep/resource/tower/scroll would drive droves of people to rage quit the game for good ... " >> isn't that what Arty is for? are you seriously complaining that the opposition would be able to actually defend their assets?!

Uberkull · October 2015

LaughingJack wrote: »

geez, i thought collision detection would have been a must for PvP.

" Having "spies" in your own faction running scrolls to the enemy is already bad enough. " >> Huh?!, how does that work?

" Having a bunch of griefers block your path trying to defend a keep/resource/tower/scroll would drive droves of people to rage quit the game for good ... " >> isn't that what Arty is for? are you seriously complaining that the opposition would be able to actually defend their assets?!

You don't get either of his points. Obviously haven't played a real MMO for too long.

spies - get on separate chat not associated with the game and communicate with your own faction while playing on another. Proceed to grab the scroll while on the other faction and communicate with your own faction to let them know where you are and not to kill you basically, or escort. Once at base....

Form a wall of 40 people in front of a key entrance or objective. Stack them 10 rows deep. Good luck getting anything done. Intention griefing.

SirAndy · October 2015

uberkull wrote: »

You don't get either of his points. Obviously haven't played a real MMO for too long.

spies - get on separate chat not associated with the game and communicate with your own faction while playing on another. Proceed to grab the scroll while on the other faction and communicate with your own faction to let them know where you are and not to kill you basically, or escort. Once at base....

Form a wall of 40 people in front of a key entrance or objective. Stack them 10 rows deep. Good luck getting anything done. Intention griefing.

Exactly ...
People from your own faction grabbing a scroll you have captured and running it to the enemy, happens often enough to be annoying.

The proposed change, if for all players, would also allow people from your own faction who work for the enemy to block you and your comrades from objectives.

Eocosa · October 2015

While I have to admit this may be pretty complicated to add to an existing game instead of designing the game with it intended (I really do not know as I am ignorant of all things game design), I would be thrilled if this was added! You used Warhammer Online as an example and I agree whole heartedly that that was a great AvA system to emulate.

With the ability to physically block enemy players it added an entire new dimension to how combat played out both in keeps as well as strategically finding places to fight out in the open world (when outnumbered looking for a narrow battlefield). This also made "tanks" an asset for a group to literally face tank players opposed to simply being a nuisance who doesn't die. Some of my fondest gaming memories were holding out in a keep drastically outnumbered as the inner gate is about to crumble, forming a shield wall with my fellow tanks while the healers and ranged dps hid behind us doing their thing, while the melee dos would sneak out the side gates and try to drop some of the enemy before sneaking (or running) back through the Back door.

I would be a HUGE supporter of this!

Asmael · October 2015

Probably not going to happen, but if collision detection there will be, it has to be with enemy players only to avoid griefing.

It would probably have a pretty huge impact performance-wise, which is the main reason it will probably not be implemented.

Anyway, /signed

JaJaLuka · October 2015

I actually think performance wise it would be positive, imagine people not being able to stack and spam aoes? It would make the particle rates be much more thinly spread and make for a smoother performance all around.

Llilium · October 2015

SirAndy wrote: »

Exactly ...
People from your own faction grabbing a scroll you have captured and running it to the enemy, happens often enough to be annoying.

The proposed change, if for all players, would also allow people from your own faction who work for the enemy to block you and your comrades from objectives.

that was *not* the proposed change. i even explained that.

collision detection only worked through enemy players, not allied players.

if you enjoy pvp in ESO, you might find it a tad interested that it is pretty much warhammer online except without collision detection, which was the most interesting part of the pvp. it didn't feel like a flying sausage fest with people running through and AOEing down, it had a realistic art to it. the only way to know is to experience it, truly. but arguing against it when it's clear that the aspect is totally alien to you isn't benevolent to you or anyone else.

Zinaroth · October 2015

The servers are already strained enough. Collision detection would add further to lag in PvP.
I think it's a cool idea though!
However not feasible with the current tech that ZOS is running.
I think the developers adressed this saying the exact same thing in the beginning of the game? Not sure though.

Llilium · October 2015

Eocosa wrote: »

While I have to admit this may be pretty complicated to add to an existing game instead of designing the game with it intended (I really do not know as I am ignorant of all things game design), I would be thrilled if this was added! You used Warhammer Online as an example and I agree whole heartedly that that was a great AvA system to emulate.

With the ability to physically block enemy players it added an entire new dimension to how combat played out both in keeps as well as strategically finding places to fight out in the open world (when outnumbered looking for a narrow battlefield). This also made "tanks" an asset for a group to literally face tank players opposed to simply being a nuisance who doesn't die. Some of my fondest gaming memories were holding out in a keep drastically outnumbered as the inner gate is about to crumble, forming a shield wall with my fellow tanks while the healers and ranged dps hid behind us doing their thing, while the melee dos would sneak out the side gates and try to drop some of the enemy before sneaking (or running) back through the Back door.

I would be a HUGE supporter of this!

^ this guy completely understands why somethign as simple and not running through enemy players makes for amazing game play.

once upon a time, people defended keeps and when the wall broke down, you'd place your guild at the bottom floor of the inner keep and give speaches like " TONIGHT WE FIGHT UNTIL THE LAST MAN" , you have your healers lined up, your melee and tanks gripping their swords and axes, sweating in anticipation, holding on as your wall defense players are trying to keep them out. when that door came down, the enemy would pour in, clashing with your last line of defense and it became hell on earth as people would pour into the keep and your only line of defense was a group of fearless WAR BOIZ stood their ground, hoping the DPS and the heals were enough to push them back enough to regain composure. sometimes you could do it, sometimes you couldn't. but right now, when that door opens, a hundred people pour in, spam AOE and everyone inside just dies.

SirAndy · October 2015

Llilium wrote: »

but arguing against it when it's clear that the aspect is totally alien to you isn't benevolent to you or anyone else.

Good lord are you really that dense?

You don't know me and have no idea what is or isn't alien to me.

No matter how much you try to insult me, i'll still disagree with your proposal.

Jumper45 · October 2015

Collision detection would work.... sorta of. Gap closers would let you bypass lines and go behind enemy lines. You could say the collision detection would block gap closers but it would cause problems in that case in the middle of combat by bumping into rando #245 and messing up the closer. Also you cant justify blocking something like the night blade Gap closer which is a teleport that SHOULD be able to go past other people etc. -shrug- it needs the system to work with it. Warhammer was different in this situation. Id personally be for anything that adds tactics in pvp combat but this might be something that currently isnt reachable for eso.

DaveMoeDee · October 2015

JaJaLuka wrote: »

I actually think performance wise it would be positive, imagine people not being able to stack and spam aoes? It would make the particle rates be much more thinly spread and make for a smoother performance all around.

Not sure about that. The extra real time, dynamic calculations for collision could be a major mess. Would make wrecking blow even better though. Am I not correct that there isn't even collision for NPC guards during combat in PvP? Seems they really tried to avoid it.

Imagine horse walls around DPS and healers. Taking keeps would be like a rugby scrum at the breach. That would be interesting.

Jumper45 · October 2015

As a side note i think siege weapons would trash any of these tactics. People stacking up to block a entrance? INC catapault to wipe them all out.

SirAndy · October 2015

Jumper45 wrote: »

As a side note i think siege weapons would trash any of these tactics. People stacking up to block a entrance? INC catapault to wipe them all out.

Have you used siege weapons on players lately?

It's like throwing wet noodles over the keep wall.

Jumper45 · October 2015

SirAndy wrote: »

Jumper45 wrote: »

As a side note i think siege weapons would trash any of these tactics. People stacking up to block a entrance? INC catapault to wipe them all out.

Have you used siege weapons on players lately?

It's like throwing wet noodles over the keep wall.

Yes but whos to say you wont have more then 1 catapault ........

Amica · October 2015

As long as i could still streak through you ... meh why not its not like it could make things worst.

rordogg · October 2015

This would be absolutely amazing. It's something I hoped would change at launch when they added collision with npcs but sadly we never got it. But I just feel like it'd add such a depth to pvp as opposed to right now where the biggest Zerg is king. Not to mention giving DK tanks like me an actual purpose in pvp other than hitting things with a wet noodle.

Pazz_ · October 2015

I feel this could work.

The people arguing about gap closers...things like Crit Rush etc, you'd only hit the "wall" of defenders in that situation. When it comes to Teleport Strike, I feel that should nullify any collision detection system as your TELEPORTING, not rushing through.

Very interesting idea!

rordogg · October 2015

Silky_Shokz wrote: »

I feel this could work.

The people arguing about gap closers...things like Crit Rush etc, you'd only hit the "wall" of defenders in that situation. When it comes to Teleport Strike, I feel that should nullify any collision detection system as your TELEPORTING, not rushing through.

Very interesting idea!

Let's be honest though they'd have to give teleport strike the same treatment as the others. You think players are bad about crying for a cloak nerf right now. Can you only imagine lol? Unless ofcourse my DK can dragon leap over the shield wall. JK, everyone would cry.

rordogg · October 2015

Honestly I wish their was a way we could test this kind of combat live for like a week or two and see what the general population thinks of it.

Pazz_ · October 2015

rordogg wrote: »

Silky_Shokz wrote: »

I feel this could work.

The people arguing about gap closers...things like Crit Rush etc, you'd only hit the "wall" of defenders in that situation. When it comes to Teleport Strike, I feel that should nullify any collision detection system as your TELEPORTING, not rushing through.

Very interesting idea!

Let's be honest though they'd have to give teleport strike the same treatment as the others. You think players are bad about crying for a cloak nerf right now. Can you only imagine lol? Unless ofcourse my DK can dragon leap over the shield wall. JK, everyone would cry.

Not necessarily. Like everything, there are pro's & con's

Pro - You go through/past the players forming a wall.
Con - Your then behind said wall, forced to fight toe-to-toe with multiple enemies.

Personally, I think it'd make for more tactical battles.

I do get where your coming from, but your never going to please everyone.

mr_wazzabi · October 2015

Collision detection would make wrecking blow op. When you lose the ability to run through somebody casting wb, you must either block, dodge roll or get wrecked. All 3 options use stamina.

Right now wb is balanced as it's not hard to sprint through the caster.

But I would love collision detectiom as I use wrecking blow

rordogg · October 2015

Haha I just had a little realization. If they were to incorporate something like this then maybe cyrodil would actually look a little more like this original trailer they showed us

https://youtu.be/MQFxE4AESn4 cause right now let's be honest it's not even close. It's a massive number of players running in a tiny little ball spamming heals and aoe.

Sureshawt · October 2015

rordogg wrote: »

Haha I just had a little realization. If they were to incorporate something like this then maybe cyrodil would actually look a little more like this original trailer they showed us https://youtu.be/MQFxE4AESn4 cause right now let's be honest it's not even close. It's a massive number of players running in a tiny little ball spamming heals and aoe.

AoEs have been promoting poor game play and encouraging zerg balling since their creation. Worst game mechanic ever introduced to games that are supposed to be about massive warfare and epic battles.

danno8 · October 2015

rordogg wrote: »

Haha I just had a little realization. If they were to incorporate something like this then maybe cyrodil would actually look a little more like this original trailer they showed us https://youtu.be/MQFxE4AESn4 cause right now let's be honest it's not even close. It's a massive number of players running in a tiny little ball spamming heals and aoe.

The framerate in those large battles at 1:19 were terrible. That was the showcase video?

dodgehopper_ESO · October 2015

I've argued for this in the past, but I think you would want Wall Breakers. I argue this should be a heavy armor skill, as that is the actual purpose of heavily armored knights and heavy cavalry. I'd also note that you could have a shield wall, and it could still be broken with one class skill almost immediately: Fear. I'm fine with that but I do think the (non-NB) tank build deserves a way to do the same if they implemented this. What I like about Collision is that its a natural way for ZoS to balance the spread of players. Its not natural for 50 characters to occupy the same 3'x2'x7' space: perhaps that's the power of the Vestige!

rordogg · October 2015

danno8 wrote: »

rordogg wrote: »

Haha I just had a little realization. If they were to incorporate something like this then maybe cyrodil would actually look a little more like this original trailer they showed us https://youtu.be/MQFxE4AESn4 cause right now let's be honest it's not even close. It's a massive number of players running in a tiny little ball spamming heals and aoe.

The framerate in those large battles at 1:19 were terrible. That was the showcase video?

I mean that's from back in the beta days haha. We've come a long way.

rordogg · October 2015

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

I've argued for this in the past, but I think you would want Wall Breakers. I argue this should be a heavy armor skill, as that is the actual purpose of heavily armored knights and heavy cavalry. I'd also note that you could have a shield wall, and it could still be broken with one class skill almost immediately: Fear. I'm fine with that but I do think the (non-NB) tank build deserves a way to do the same if they implemented this. What I like about Collision is that its a natural way for ZoS to balance the spread of players. Its not natural for 50 characters to occupy the same 3'x2'x7' space: perhaps that's the power of the Vestige!

Existing knock backs, knock downs, ect.... Would still work fine for this think about it. Yeah someone breaks the wall for a second. A few players get behind the lines and now they have to deal with all the ranged dps while your tanks realine the shield wall. It'd make fights hella fun. Whoever could successfully hold their shield wall better would win. Players who are outnumbered could actually still have a chance of defending against a Zerg because they all wouldn't just be able to stack on top of each other and run everyone over in the keep.

I just feel like it would really give each role and actually role to play. Tanks hold the wall, healers keep those tanks alive, dps sits behind and kill everything they can on the the other side as well as whoever manages to break through. Think of how more dynamic cyrodil fights would be instead of "everyone stack on top of the crown and use aoe!" I'm getting so sick of joining big groups in cyrodil and the leader becoming pissed cause everyone doesn't wanna stack on them and cheese through everything. Zos really should look at this now especially with the damage, heals, and shield reductions they've added. Tanking for pvp is sitting in a really awkward spot. Everyone is.