Steel Tornado

Anazasi · October 2015

I have noticed this several times and many of you have heard that this is becoming or is the new meta of PVP. Lately on Azura's NA this had become a trade mark ability of a certain DC Pot group. However, last night we began seeing this meta being used by a certain EP group as well. When you get a 20+ raid and over half of them are spamming this ability it is impossible to counter. The burst damage along with the fact that ST acts as an AOE Execution makes it very very OP in large group play.

ZOS has a very hard choice to make since the players have chosen to make this a zerg meta. The can nerf ST to nothing like they did to Impulse or they can watch the super groups kill PVP, and campaigns.

The magica builds just cant compete on this level. Proximity Det just doesn't have the damage output of an execute like ST (unless you have maxed out CP like some of the players have atm). Negate doesn't do anything other than cause a short respite from the spamming. Impulse because of the decreased range and recent nerf wont break them up fast enough.

It is a real concern atm from my perspective as a magic build group leader. Last night it was discussed at length on how to counter such groups and honestly it was decided to simply start running the same builds in the same numbers as EP and DC. Although I do not like this because this one ability ST is now changing the entire landscape of PVP. I guess like all other things you have to do the same thing as everyone else is doing in order to stay in the game.

ZOS THIS ABILITY NEEDS TO BE CHANGED NOW!

IxSTALKERxI · October 2015

Steel tornado is strong and needs to be looked at, there is no denying that. But I disagree with magicka builds not being able to compete.

A steel tornado group will win if they have greater numbers then you. If the numbers on both sides are equal though, the group that uses magicka based builds will win, it requires a little more individual skill in terms of timing (prox det) and positioning (smaller aoe radius). I did Steel tornado during 1.6 and I swapped to magicka for 1.7.

OtarTheMad · October 2015

The problem is Steel Tornado got buffed while Impulse and Wall of Elements got nerfed, if they had kept the two magicka AOEs where they were and did the buff to Steel Tornado then you'd have some variety.

Groups will always find an ability to spam, don't get Steel Tornado nerfed... ZOS needs to learn to stop nerfing abilities and starting looking at the crappy ones or the previously nerfed ones and making them stronger.

IxSTALKERxI · October 2015

OtarTheMad wrote: »

The problem is Steel Tornado got buffed while Impulse and Wall of Elements got nerfed, if they had kept the two magicka AOEs where they were and did the buff to Steel Tornado then you'd have some variety.

Groups will always find an ability to spam, don't get Steel Tornado nerfed... ZOS needs to learn to stop nerfing abilities and starting looking at the crappy ones or the previously nerfed ones and making them stronger.

Agreed.

In my option something like the following would be good:

-Impulse should be increased back to 8m radius.
-Wall of Elements damage buffed.
-Steel tornado execute bonus shouldn't begin to apply until the target is below 50% health.

This would encourage a more diverse combination of abilities / playstyles rather than everyone spin to win.

BRogueNZ · October 2015

IxSTALKERxI wrote: »

OtarTheMad wrote: »

The problem is Steel Tornado got buffed while Impulse and Wall of Elements got nerfed, if they had kept the two magicka AOEs where they were and did the buff to Steel Tornado then you'd have some variety.

Groups will always find an ability to spam, don't get Steel Tornado nerfed... ZOS needs to learn to stop nerfing abilities and starting looking at the crappy ones or the previously nerfed ones and making them stronger.

Agreed.

In my option something like the following would be good:

-Impulse should be increased back to 8m radius.
-Wall of Elements damage buffed.
-Steel tornado execute bonus shouldn't begin to apply until the target is below 50% health.

This would encourage a more diverse combination of abilities / playstyles rather than everyone spin to win.

wouldn't help the situation surely, buffing a health de-buff amidst the execution spammage?

Alucardo · October 2015

Have you noticed the more people complain and talk about certain abilities the more they get used? Take Shield Breaker for instance - this baby got free marketing. I had no intentions of using it until all the posts about "Nerf shield breaker" and "Remove shield breaker". I thought, hell it must be good.
So basically you're further cementing the idea that steel tornado is OP, and of course more and more people are going to use it. Just sayin'

BRogueNZ · October 2015

So its the forums fault. nerf forums

People read death recaps more often than forum posts, just replyin'

Alucardo · October 2015

BRogueNZ wrote: »

So its the forums fault. nerf forums

People read death recaps more often than forum posts, just replyin'

I actually read the comments on here more, because I don't die that often. Just playin' good

k2blader · October 2015

To anyone saying magicka (prox det) is on par with ST, I don't think so. Unless there are AD bomb groups running primarily prox det with huge success and I don't see them?

I know death recaps don't show everything, but they provide a summary snapshot. Typically mine show mostly ST and other stamina damage. Once in a great while I'll see a prox det show up. As many have mentioned before, due to current game design it is much easier to mitigate magicka-based damage than physical/stamina-based damage. Until that's changed we'll keep seeing folks take the path of least resistance. (heh)

While I kind of like the idea of un-nerfing Impulse and Wall of Elements, do we really want the game to keep being one where AoE spam is a must for group PvP? Also I don't think any AoE should have an execute attached to it, especially if its radius is unrivaled.

IxSTALKERxI · October 2015

k2blader wrote: »

To anyone saying magicka (prox det) is on par with ST, I don't think so. Unless there are AD bomb groups running primarily prox det with huge success and I don't see them?

RÁGE runs a balanced combination of both.

IxSTALKERxI · October 2015

k2blader wrote: »

do we really want the game to keep being one where AoE spam is a must for group PvP?

AoE is used when greatly outnumbered, it's not a must for group PvP and shouldn't be labled as an ability used by groups. Single target abilities can be viable while doing group PvP just as AoE abilities can be useful when solo.

BRogueNZ · October 2015

Alucardo wrote: »

BRogueNZ wrote: »

So its the forums fault. nerf forums

People read death recaps more often than forum posts, just replyin'

I actually read the comments on here more, because I don't die that often. Just playin' good

ah you role play as a northern high rock gate guard gotcha

riverdragon72 · October 2015

Well from my salad shooter thread I learned;

1. I r doing in rong
2. I suck
3. My guild sucks
4. L2pzorz gnoob
5. Rylana is the best player in ESO

All I know is when one of these blobs is all wound up and comes spinning around a corner your screwed 90% of the time, instant melt.

reften · October 2015

I think prox det needs a nerf as much as steel tornado. When we run an organized prox det group, it's nearly comical how OP we are.

You know who I run with Taran, and, on any given night, there are only a couple of us running steel tornado. There are other better burst skills...coupled with CC, and even good single target players who are good at going for the healers.

Now, me, I hit a large group with ambush, then a couple of fears, then soul tether if it's up, then finally steel tornado for the execute.

The thing is, don't confused an OP skill, with an OP group. If 5 or 6 of us run steel tornado, ONLY after our burst damage abilities, well, then we're just using the skills available to us.

You nerf steel tornado, we'll use something else, and oh by the way, any nerf to an organized group is also a nerf to an unorganized group, if not more-so, because organized groups alter playstyles faster after nerfs.

Careful what you wish for.

CN_Daniel · October 2015

Give us a stam morph of proxy and increase the radius of impulse to equal 'nado.

It's really not as OP as you're thinking. I'm probably leading the group you're referring to, and organized mana groups still give a lot of trouble.

Ezareth · October 2015

I think they should just give Sorcs the Chain lightning Ability and stick a fork in the Zergs.

Chain Lightning: 2 Second Cast: 3654 Base Cost (Base cost of Crystal Frags)
Summon a bolt of lightning that bounces to up to 4 nearby targets. The first target struck does X damage, with each successive strike to a target within 3 meters doing double the damage of the previous target.

Morph1: Lightning Surge:
Strikes up to 2 additional targets

Morph2: Blinding Lightning
Applies Minor maim to each target hit.

Make the base damage about 50% of a base Crystal fragment so that it's not worth casting against a single target or even 2 targets on top of one another and even 3 targets ends up being nonlethal but 4 targets or more would be a guaranteed kill.

The 2 second cast time would be to make sure it didn't become the #1 DPS ability in PvE and give players a way to counter it.

OtarTheMad · October 2015

IxSTALKERxI wrote: »

OtarTheMad wrote: »

The problem is Steel Tornado got buffed while Impulse and Wall of Elements got nerfed, if they had kept the two magicka AOEs where they were and did the buff to Steel Tornado then you'd have some variety.

Groups will always find an ability to spam, don't get Steel Tornado nerfed... ZOS needs to learn to stop nerfing abilities and starting looking at the crappy ones or the previously nerfed ones and making them stronger.

Agreed.

In my option something like the following would be good:

-Impulse should be increased back to 8m radius.
-Wall of Elements damage buffed.
-Steel tornado execute bonus shouldn't begin to apply until the target is below 50% health.

This would encourage a more diverse combination of abilities / playstyles rather than everyone spin to win.

Agreed. That would be a good start.

Variety I think will solve a lot, if people get steam rolled, they will be mad however I don't think the Death Recap screen with have much to do with it if these things are fixed/adjusted. If I got run over by a group and saw Steel Tornado, Impulse, Talons, even Wall of Elements and Cleave all in my death recap... I'd just be like "damn" and laugh.

_adhyffbjjjf12 · October 2015

The colour of the gfx (dagger v impulse v blah) has no material affect on gameplay, diversity of colours does not = it's now alright to zergball. Zergballs aoe, aoe has no business in pvp, its done by idiots who fear pvp and hide in a mass spamming and playing follow my leader. Remove aoe in pvp (that's what siege should be for). Job done.

Ishammael · October 2015

Ezareth wrote: »

I think they should just give Sorcs the Chain lightning Ability and stick a fork in the Zergs.

Chain Lightning: 2 Second Cast: 3654 Base Cost (Base cost of Crystal Frags)
Summon a bolt of lightning that bounces to up to 4 nearby targets. The first target struck does X damage, with each successive strike to a target within 3 meters doing double the damage of the previous target.

Morph1: Lightning Surge:
Strikes up to 2 additional targets

Morph2: Blinding Lightning
Applies Minor maim to each target hit.

Make the base damage about 50% of a base Crystal fragment so that it's not worth casting against a single target or even 2 targets on top of one another and even 3 targets ends up being nonlethal but 4 targets or more would be a guaranteed kill.

The 2 second cast time would be to make sure it didn't become the #1 DPS ability in PvE and give players a way to counter it.

Can I have dynamic ult in my DK pretty please?!

Muizer · October 2015

k2blader wrote: »

..... do we really want the game to keep being one where AoE spam is a must for group PvP? Also I don't think any AoE should have an execute attached to it, especially if its radius is unrivaled.

I certainly don't. AoE shouldn't be an effective way to deal damage at all. It's rewarding people for stupid play with strong builds.

Derra · October 2015

Muizer wrote: »

k2blader wrote: »

..... do we really want the game to keep being one where AoE spam is a must for group PvP? Also I don't think any AoE should have an execute attached to it, especially if its radius is unrivaled.

I certainly don't. AoE shouldn't be an effective way to deal damage at all. It's rewarding people for stupid play with strong builds.

I think all aoes should be really strong but ALL of them requiring a casttime of atleast 1.5 seconds (also there is more need for ranged interrupts).

If you don´t have strong aoes and esos targetting system blobbing is still the best way to play bc you can hide behind other players once you get dmged singletarget.

IxSTALKERxI · October 2015

AoE damage is only effective when there are multiple enemies within a small radius. If you are solo or spread out, you don't have anything to worry about.

The main reason groups blob is for mitigation from aoe caps, and to benefit from abilities such as healing springs etc. There are many healing/ support abilities and item sets that increase group survivability that work more efficiently whilst stacking in a blob and that is the main problem. If you want to end the blobbing meta, simply give better alternatives to all the abilities/ sets in the game that heal/buff x amount of allies in x radius. Sorc healers, dk healers, nightblade healers for example are all forced to use healing springs which works best when everyone stacks in a ball.

AshTal · October 2015

In the end this will be the only skill used in PvP. What shocked me was when I was in IC sewers and 3 players the same in PvE and it worked just as well killing everything other than world bosses. I suspect this ability will be changed but with the normal ZOS speed so 2016 at earliest

Master_Kas · October 2015

IxSTALKERxI wrote: »

k2blader wrote: »

do we really want the game to keep being one where AoE spam is a must for group PvP?

AoE is used when greatly outnumbered, it's not a must for group PvP and shouldn't be labled as an ability used by groups. Single target abilities can be viable while doing group PvP just as AoE abilities can be useful when solo.

Not really. Why should you use single targets with singletarget skills when you have 4+ enemies around you waiting to get AoEd, even if you are in a group? :P

Anazasi · October 2015

IxSTALKERxI wrote: »

AoE damage is only effective when there are multiple enemies within a small radius. If you are solo or spread out, you don't have anything to worry about.

The main reason groups blob is for mitigation from aoe caps, and to benefit from abilities such as healing springs etc. There are many healing/ support abilities and item sets that increase group survivability that work more efficiently whilst stacking in a blob and that is the main problem. If you want to end the blobbing meta, simply give better alternatives to all the abilities/ sets in the game that heal/buff x amount of allies in x radius. Sorc healers, dk healers, nightblade healers for example are all forced to use healing springs which works best when everyone stacks in a ball.

I don't disagree with you but I just can't seem to find a solution that actually works for everything. I hear a lot of players want the removal of AOE caps. But that would simply mean that emps like meth could simply wipe 50 man blobs. Is that really what we want? This is a serious issue that offers no fast or easy solution. That's why ZOS has been left with micro managing the meta of PVP combat. So since ST is the number one ability by stam builds across the board and is the most used ability in blobs it stands to reason that ZOS will act accordingly as they have done in the past and nerf it some way (reference Impulse nerf). I'm just pointing out the precedent of the meta in hopes that when it comes players don't slash their wrists because of the reliance on it.

BigTone · October 2015

Ezareth wrote: »

I think they should just give Sorcs the Chain lightning Ability and stick a fork in the Zergs.

Chain Lightning: 2 Second Cast: 3654 Base Cost (Base cost of Crystal Frags)
Summon a bolt of lightning that bounces to up to 4 nearby targets. The first target struck does X damage, with each successive strike to a target within 3 meters doing double the damage of the previous target.

Morph1: Lightning Surge:
Strikes up to 2 additional targets

Morph2: Blinding Lightning
Applies Minor maim to each target hit.

Make the base damage about 50% of a base Crystal fragment so that it's not worth casting against a single target or even 2 targets on top of one another and even 3 targets ends up being nonlethal but 4 targets or more would be a guaranteed kill.

The 2 second cast time would be to make sure it didn't become the #1 DPS ability in PvE and give players a way to counter it.

Manoekin · October 2015

Anazasi wrote: »

IxSTALKERxI wrote: »

AoE damage is only effective when there are multiple enemies within a small radius. If you are solo or spread out, you don't have anything to worry about.

The main reason groups blob is for mitigation from aoe caps, and to benefit from abilities such as healing springs etc. There are many healing/ support abilities and item sets that increase group survivability that work more efficiently whilst stacking in a blob and that is the main problem. If you want to end the blobbing meta, simply give better alternatives to all the abilities/ sets in the game that heal/buff x amount of allies in x radius. Sorc healers, dk healers, nightblade healers for example are all forced to use healing springs which works best when everyone stacks in a ball.

I don't disagree with you but I just can't seem to find a solution that actually works for everything. I hear a lot of players want the removal of AOE caps. But that would simply mean that emps like meth could simply wipe 50 man blobs. Is that really what we want? This is a serious issue that offers no fast or easy solution. That's why ZOS has been left with micro managing the meta of PVP combat. So since ST is the number one ability by stam builds across the board and is the most used ability in blobs it stands to reason that ZOS will act accordingly as they have done in the past and nerf it some way (reference Impulse nerf). I'm just pointing out the precedent of the meta in hopes that when it comes players don't slash their wrists because of the reliance on it.

Yes, that's what we want. We had that before, and everyone L2P and developed strategies for defeating strong emperors.

One of my first encounters with an enemy emperor was Fixate, and this is back in the first few weeks of the game when everyone was still learning. I stood in his banner and died. I stood in his bats and died. I quickly learned not to do that ***, and so did everyone else. Then a fight with him was just a matter of how long it took to kill him because DK's had stupid survivability then.

As for Meth, he hits like weaksauce if you just block his attack

Since changing my build I hardly see him on my death recap.

SirAndy · October 2015

It's funny how some people always imply that nobody in their own faction uses certain tactics they deem in need of a fix.

What does faction have to do with the (over)use of steel tornado?

Anazasi · October 2015

I think everyone uses ST if that's part of their build. The aspect that everyone can at least agree with is when an ability is so widely used it should be looked at. Impulse was the meta almost a year ago. Everyone rolled magic builds and everyone spammed it. It became a one button blob mechanic. ST is in the same boat now so when will it be nerfed? All I'm doing is pointing out the obvious you can ignore it if you like but its on the block, as a magic build player I'm just waiting for the axe to swing.

prootch · October 2015

steel tornadoe should be suppressed... aoe exec is a very bad approach of pvp.

Takllin · October 2015

Anazasi wrote: »

I think everyone uses ST if that's part of their build. The aspect that everyone can at least agree with is when an ability is so widely used it should be looked at. Impulse was the meta almost a year ago. Everyone rolled magic builds and everyone spammed it. It became a one button blob mechanic. ST is in the same boat now so when will it be nerfed? All I'm doing is pointing out the obvious you can ignore it if you like but its on the block, as a magic build player I'm just waiting for the axe to swing.

When they add CP to reduce Physical damage.

There is no need to nerf Steel Tornado.