Tanking in light armor? [sorcerer]

Valindor Magnus · October 2015

So in the right build I can see my hardened ward getting upwards of 25k. I wanted to ask if anyone here has tried tanking vet WGT or SO hard mode by relying on hardened ward instead of blocking. And if so what minimum stats do you shoot for? I was thinking something like 20k hp 35k plus Magicka and my set bonuses would be mag recovery and Max mag. Maybe engine guardian as well, SnB and resto so I can have some heavy attacks for regening Magicka if needed and some heals from resto tree. Anyone try this yet?

usmcjdking · October 2015

I haven't but I would probably heed the following.

A lot of damage mitigation from HA and blocking is percentage based, not hard # HP based. I would imagine that the effective HP (and potential healing pool HP) you have from heavy armor and blocking is significantly higher than that of Hardened Ward. Also, you would really be making the healer somewhat ineffective by spamming ward in a vet IC dungeon or the Sanctum. Your effective healing pool HP is essentially only half of your effective HP meaning you will have to lose more than 50% (under ideal circumstances) of your effective HP before the healer can even do any meaningful healing on you..

Valindor Magnus · October 2015

usmcjdking wrote: »

I haven't but I would probably heed the following.

A lot of damage mitigation from HA and blocking is percentage based, not hard # HP based. I would imagine that the effective HP (and potential healing pool HP) you have from heavy armor and blocking is significantly higher than that of Hardened Ward. Also, you would really be making the healer somewhat ineffective by spamming ward in a vet IC dungeon or the Sanctum. Your effective healing pool HP is essentially only half of your effective HP meaning you will have to lose more than 50% (under ideal circumstances) of your effective HP before the healer can even do any meaningful healing on you..

Mmm. Well I wouldn't need a healer to spam ward on me as I would be keeping up HW up 100% of the time. I have healed get crypt of hearts with my sorc while tanking the 4 or more adds on the last boss for the gold key with just hardened ward. Obviously that's not as hard as tanking a boss In a trial or vet WGT so that's why I asked here if anyone has tried this. I know I could do this for my dailies. Do you happen to know what you effective I've hp would be in HA at something like 25k plus hp? Can't get on right now so can't do the math myself yet but 20k hp plus a 25k ish ward seems like a pretty big effective hit point pool. Maybe I could pull this of with something like seducer crafted in heavy idk. Would really like to start doing something other than dps but have no clue about tanking on a sorc, in regards to the hardest content of the game. I see your point about low health pool would mean I would lose most of my health before a heal from the healer would be worth it. What are the normals stats needed to tank SO hardmode or Vet WGT?

usmcjdking · October 2015

Valindor Magnus wrote: »

usmcjdking wrote: »

I haven't but I would probably heed the following.

A lot of damage mitigation from HA and blocking is percentage based, not hard # HP based. I would imagine that the effective HP (and potential healing pool HP) you have from heavy armor and blocking is significantly higher than that of Hardened Ward. Also, you would really be making the healer somewhat ineffective by spamming ward in a vet IC dungeon or the Sanctum. Your effective healing pool HP is essentially only half of your effective HP meaning you will have to lose more than 50% (under ideal circumstances) of your effective HP before the healer can even do any meaningful healing on you..

Mmm. Well I wouldn't need a healer to spam ward on me as I would be keeping up HW up 100% of the time. I have healed get crypt of hearts with my sorc while tanking the 4 or more adds on the last boss for the gold key with just hardened ward. Obviously that's not as hard as tanking a boss In a trial or vet WGT so that's why I asked here if anyone has tried this. I know I could do this for my dailies. Do you happen to know what you effective I've hp would be in HA at something like 25k plus hp? Can't get on right now so can't do the math myself yet but 20k hp plus a 25k ish ward seems like a pretty big effective hit point pool. Maybe I could pull this of with something like seducer crafted in heavy idk. Would really like to start doing something other than dps but have no clue about tanking on a sorc, in regards to the hardest content of the game. I see your point about low health pool would mean I would lose most of my health before a heal from the healer would be worth it. What are the normals stats needed to tank SO hardmode or Vet WGT?

That's a lot of math I'm not willing to do, but we will just theorize here using some nice, big, easy numbers.

My Templar tank runs around 30k HP with purple food. My resistance before block and buff for physical is 30% which means my effective health is 40k and my effective healing pool is 40k. If I use my other buffs + block, that will put my resistance up to 70% which will give me 51k effective hit points and 51k effective healing pool.

Typical 5L 2H armor can net you around 15% resistances if I recall correctly. With 25k Health and a 25k Ward your effective health is 52k and your effective healing pool is 27.5k. With all you sweet buffs you might be able to breach 60k effective health with a 30k effective healing pool.

Valindor Magnus · October 2015

usmcjdking wrote: »

Valindor Magnus wrote: »

usmcjdking wrote: »

I haven't but I would probably heed the following.

A lot of damage mitigation from HA and blocking is percentage based, not hard # HP based. I would imagine that the effective HP (and potential healing pool HP) you have from heavy armor and blocking is significantly higher than that of Hardened Ward. Also, you would really be making the healer somewhat ineffective by spamming ward in a vet IC dungeon or the Sanctum. Your effective healing pool HP is essentially only half of your effective HP meaning you will have to lose more than 50% (under ideal circumstances) of your effective HP before the healer can even do any meaningful healing on you..

Mmm. Well I wouldn't need a healer to spam ward on me as I would be keeping up HW up 100% of the time. I have healed get crypt of hearts with my sorc while tanking the 4 or more adds on the last boss for the gold key with just hardened ward. Obviously that's not as hard as tanking a boss In a trial or vet WGT so that's why I asked here if anyone has tried this. I know I could do this for my dailies. Do you happen to know what you effective I've hp would be in HA at something like 25k plus hp? Can't get on right now so can't do the math myself yet but 20k hp plus a 25k ish ward seems like a pretty big effective hit point pool. Maybe I could pull this of with something like seducer crafted in heavy idk. Would really like to start doing something other than dps but have no clue about tanking on a sorc, in regards to the hardest content of the game. I see your point about low health pool would mean I would lose most of my health before a heal from the healer would be worth it. What are the normals stats needed to tank SO hardmode or Vet WGT?

That's a lot of math I'm not willing to do, but we will just theorize here using some nice, big, easy numbers.

My Templar tank runs around 30k HP with purple food. My resistance before block and buff for physical is 30% which means my effective health is 40k and my effective healing pool is 40k. If I use my other buffs + block, that will put my resistance up to 70% which will give me 51k effective hit points and 51k effective healing pool.

Typical 5L 2H armor can net you around 15% resistances if I recall correctly. With 25k Health and a 25k Ward your effective health is 52k and your effective healing pool is 27.5k. With all you sweet buffs you might be able to breach 60k effective health with a 30k effective healing pool.

So I maybe could take more damage but would be harder to heal? Is your effective healing pool higher because it's all based on health taking less damage from mitigation rather than taking the full amount the hit would normally be but on a shield? Starting the think the mitigation and health route would be better just not sure a sorcerer can pull that off as easily as other classes. Maybe I should level my v15 nord dk and just pve on him lol. I like the idea of it being a challenge though (tanking on a sorc rather than dk that is)

usmcjdking · October 2015

Your effective HP healing pool is essentially the health that your healer has influence over.

For instance, a typical HA tank with 51/51 will have 51k health that the healer is capable of replenishing.

A LA Sorc will only have the 30kish the healer is capable of replenishing. In most dungeons this isn't a problem, but in some of the content, the bosses hit harder than 30k even through block, so one ill-timed shield and poof - yer done.

Valindor Magnus · October 2015

Yeah I ran this in vet banished cells tonight as a tank, overall I think it went well. I was lagging pretty bad so I did end up dieing on the first boss but on the last boss I was able to hold agro on 3-4 daedroth adds and the boss at the same time. My build isn't optimizedto really maximize the potential of this idea so it could be better but I don't think I'm gonna be able to tank vet WGT or a hard mode trial. This will work for any of the vet pledges though. Was pretty fun to play as well.

Erock25 · October 2015

I've tanked pretty extensively on a sorc in both a heavy armor and light armor set up but have not tanked hard more trials or the new IC dungeons. My personal experience is that heavy armor is a must BUT this is from mostly pug groups. The idea of relying almost exclusively on your Hardened Ward seems like it can work, but it creates issues where you are hesitant to block while relying on Ward (drain stamina for no benefit) but there are also many situations where you are getting incoming burst dmg from many different sources. Right now I run a hist bark and footman setup with two sets of willpower sword and shields. I have around 28k health and 25k magicka and rely on Dark Deal to keep my stamina up. In this set up, I can tank even without Hardened Ward, so I'm not constantly spamming it, but using it often for incoming hard hits or when my health is low.

I will say that light armor tanking is way more fun and also that it is probably better for certain instances and you can even manage to put out very nice DPS if using destro.

remilafo · October 2015

my hardened ward gives me 29k but even that isn't enough to tank vwgt or vicp..

the main issue with shields like hardened ward is that they don't get your defenses like from cp and armor.

they are basically a naked hp bubble... molag kena will hit that thing for repeated 17-19k hits, basically equating that to having to recast every strike.

on paper it looks like it works as a tank but it practice it really doesn't considering a dedicated tank only takes like 4k hits from molag kena..

the best you can hope for using a large shield like that is making your healers job easier, being good solo and being a well balanced dps and survivability.

please don't mis-understand me, i use my hardened ward in all that i do even tanking and aside from a few bosses like vet molag kena, valkyn skoria, that stupid mini boss before the pinion boss in vet WGT and 1st and 2nd in vICP you can tanking in light armor with hardened ward just fine.

WillhelmBlack · October 2015

There's a new set coming out soon for Sorc tanks but it does involve pets. Don't know if that would put you off but it sounds awesome to me. Clannfear heals are OP.

remilafo · October 2015

would be nice if the clanfear had an actual taunt.

would make him viable, cause right now he's just cannon fodder or a two-step dragon's blood equivalent.

EDIT* actually why not let "Deadric Prey" on target make the clanfear perform the taunt because a 55% dps increase from him is worthless.

Birdovic · October 2015

Oh finally, nice thread, Ive been planning to try something like that for some time now

zornyan · October 2015

I can't see ward being enough on its own, if a tank is hitting 33k resist (so 50% mitigation ) plus blocking mitigation, and having the stamina to actually block and taunt regularly.

Hardened ward has zero armor, so the 40k hit that would only hit a tank for 15-20k or less, is hitting you for the full 40k.

Basically you'll be recasting hardened ward every single attack, which means one knockdown, one spilt second mistake and you're dead, as once that's shields down you will have too little health, mitigation to survive anything.

tist · October 2015

Have not tanked the new dungeons but old dungeons up to V14 without any issues in light armor. I have 100 pts in bastion and almost 40k magickat hough.

Valindor Magnus · October 2015

Yeah this set up with shield tanking in light armor is fine for any of the vet pledges. It anything past that in difficulty is going to require heavy armor. It's super fun to tank like this in the pledges though.

Love_Chunks · October 2015

Ive seen light armor tanks work in group dungeons but i know for a fact that it wouldnt work in trials. Seeing that blocking with damage shields up is a waste of stam, the warrior's heavy attack would one shot you through your shields. This is especially true with the serpent and the manticora.

Valindor Magnus · October 2015

Love_Chunks wrote: »

Ive seen light armor tanks work in group dungeons but i know for a fact that it wouldnt work in trials. Seeing that blocking with damage shields up is a waste of stam, the warrior's heavy attack would one shot you through your shields. This is especially true with the serpent and the manticora.

Have you seen a sorc tank trials before? Would really like to but I've not been in many trials runs to begin with but the ones I did do was as a dps.

Rudster · October 2015

There are certain bosses\dungeons where it can work, and some where it would even work well, but it general its a bad idea. If you get stunned you can't reapply your shield, so your basically a DPS in full light armor with aggro on the boss. You need to block a lot of small attacks to prevent getting knocked down\stunned a lot, so you're still going to need significant amounts of stamina, and a decent amount of health which will drive into your magicking pool so much that your ward will be pretty puny.

Tanking trials with ward is out of the question. In SO you'll die in popcorn everytime in light armor and 20k HP as a tank. In AA you will definately run out of stamina blocking the heavy attacks from the axes, and if you don't you'll get knocked down. They'd probably come close to one shoting you through 20k HP and a 26k bubble anyways.

VWGT you probably would get one shot, I don't know how hard her attacks are hitting me once she is below 30%, but I know I'm taking a LOT of damage. I'm a DK in HA, SnB, Absorb Magic\Defensive Stance, and Footmans so I'm mitigating over 80% of damage via block and I'm still getting hit very hard through it. I've also seen Molag Kena one shot a sorc with 17.5k HP and a 24kish bubble after I've died in there.

Love_Chunks · October 2015

@Valindor_Magnus its actually been a while since I've seen a sorc tanking anything. Not saying its impossible; you could very well make it work. It just that sorcs dont have as many group support and resource regeneration skills as say a DK or a templar. Also both of those classes have some form of passive damage mitigation which sorcs severely lack.

The one skill i see being decent for a sorc tank's resource management is dark deal. With that skill, you can regain stamina as long as you have magicka. Combine that with the sorc passive that gives you magicka regen and i think that you would literally never run out of stam(havent tested this). Also boundless storm is a great way to boost your resistances as well.

Just throwing some ideas out there.

dodgehopper_ESO · October 2015

Love_Chunks wrote: »

@Valindor_Magnus its actually been a while since I've seen a sorc tanking anything. Not saying its impossible; you could very well make it work. It just that sorcs dont have as many group support and resource regeneration skills as say a DK or a templar. Also both of those classes have some form of passive damage mitigation which sorcs severely lack.

The one skill i see being decent for a sorc tank's resource management is dark deal. With that skill, you can regain stamina as long as you have magicka. Combine that with the sorc passive that gives you magicka regen and i think that you would literally never run out of stam(havent tested this). Also boundless storm is a great way to boost your resistances as well.

Just throwing some ideas out there.

I've been meaning to test this, but there are two problems with it that I foresee.

1) Dark deal (or whatever its morph is called that moves to stam) doesn't give the same amount of stamina it use to. The heal is pretty good, but I'm noticing the stamina is a bit weak, so you might have to spam it to get good results, making a heavy attack probably more viable (For stam recovery anyway, for health recovery its still good).
2) Dark deal/exchange/whatever drops your block which could be fatal while you're tanking. You might get away with it if you use a shield and you don't have a lot of pressure on yo uthough.