dday3six wrote: »

Rioht wrote: »

...If I want to get a good setup for PvP, I HAVE to PvE. There is no option here.

Well just how deep does that rabbit hole go? Is gear your only complaint. What about Skill Points, what about Skill Lines that only level in PVE like Undaunted, Legerdemain, Provisioning and Alchemy. What about lorebooks for the Mage's Guild. Should all of those things also have PVP only equivalents? They are all elements that make up an optimized PVP build.

What happens is, players want to ignore aspects of ESO, but they don't want to suffer any lost in optimization for doing so. Well that is not going to happen. The game is built for longer term. One of the methods used to keep players invested is the gear and skill grinds.

If looking to optimize, whether for PVP or PVE, a player is going to have spent time doing the other activity if they seek be at peak. If you think PVE players don't have to do this too. You're mistaken. It's not only gear that matters. Skills do as well. Battle Horn, Purge, Magicka Detenation, Barrier, and Caltrops are all widely used in PVE, yet only gained from PVP.

You've raised some good points, and I think its an important component to consider.

Personally, I would draw the line at gear. I'm sure others would argue otherwise.

While its true some optimal builds do require PvP / PvE specific skills, I feel they are less impactful on the overall builds. As someone who has the majority of both PvE and PvP such as meteor, magicka detonation and the likes, I see those as merely options to any of the other widely available skills. Passives may present some benefit, but overall it won't break a build of they don't have the undaunted passives, or the crafting passives. Better? Yes. Necessary, no.

I would hope that ZoS doesn't plan to make any blatantly overpowered skills in ANY skill line, as skill balance would be completely out of whack. I don't expect this to change anytime in the near future.

k2blader wrote: »

Late to the thread but, OP, I totally agree.

I'd really like AP purchasable gear that is highly desirable to magicka damage builds. They could even implement a token-ish system which might involve PvP quest completion. I like that we have a couple options for crafted sets, but PvP options would be great too -- though I hope they don't go the arena route (forced to play arena for the best gear).

Another thing I don't quite get.

One reason ZoS gave for not imolimenting AP purchased V16 gear (I.e, scaling cyrodils light) was that players had lots of AP saved up and could just get v16 gear right away.

One argument I see if that it is no different than players who saved a large amount of gold undaunted keys for immediate access to monster sets. Or players who saved large amounts of crafting rewards to open and instantly have access to psijic ambrosia or glass fragments (without ever purchasing the DLC).

Secondly, why not just, as the previous commenter suggested, add a token system.

I would imagine a system where you get tokens, maybe as a random reward for completing PvP bounties (player kills, keeps, scouting etc) or as random drops from rewards for the worthy.

These tokens could be used in COMBINATION to AP to purchase new VR16 gear. I.e., 500k ap + 1 token to purchase a v16 cyrodils light ring.

Funny how this supposedly "pvp update" almost completely killed competitive pvp and there is absolutely no gear to get through pvp

Actually, it's more sad than funny, also kinda ironic at the same time

robkrush wrote: »

Boy, PVP players where singing a different tune a month ago when PVE players where complaining about having to play PVP to get the new gear.

Was this during the false advertising that ZOS was doing when they called IC a PVP DLC for PvPers? Yeah, we thought we actually had to pvp for top end gear for a change.

With the 50% damage reduction, it just doesn't matter anymore and it sucks.

Xjcon wrote: »

briandivisionb16_ESO wrote: »

Rioht wrote: »

ZoS, give PvPers a chance to get usable gear by....wait for it... PVPING!

Nah screw that we'll just put PvE paygates in!
Lets add more undaunted passives so PvPers have to PvE. Lets keep all gear PvE so people that only play for competitive PvP have to bash their heads against a brick wall for a week for one item.
Yay.

If all I had to do was bash my head against the keyboard for a week I'd have been done long time ago. Right along with the PVP crowds complaint about gear being in dungeons that are a challenge, I'd like those PVP abilitys without bashing my head against the keyboard for a month or more!

See the thing is gear and abilities aren't the same thing.

ZoS has done, and continues to do a good job of balancing skills. You are not severely ginped just because you don't have magicka detonation, or undaunted passives or whatever skill.

You may not have as many build options, but you are more than capable of creating a viable build for any activity.

Gear on the other hand is tiered intentionally and must be treated much differently. Sets are designed to be better than others, with the best ones being the hardest to atttain. However, the best gear shouldn't be restricted to any single activity or area of the game. In a game as large as eso, it is incredibly restrictive to force players to engage in specific activities, even if they do not want to, in order to get the gear they need to do the activities they want.

A PvP player should not be forced to pve to have a viable PvP setup.
A PvE player should not be forced to PvP to have a viable PvE setup.

Rioht wrote: »

See the thing is gear and abilities aren't the same thing.

ZoS has done, and continues to do a good job of balancing skills. You are not severely ginped just because you don't have magicka detonation, or undaunted passives or whatever skill.

You may not have as many build options, but you are more than capable of creating a viable build for any activity...

Magicka Detonation is important to AOE DPS, particularly with 2 Magicka DPS. Their choices beyond that skill are very limited. Magicka Nightblades fare a bit better thanks to Sap Essence, but even they benefit from the addition AOE DPS of Magicka Detonation.

This is often unnoticed as most groups have a Stamina user with Steel Tornado. However in dungeons and VDSA with more demanding AOE DPS situations. Groups need to manage an increased layer of difficulty if both DPS are Magicka and lack Magicka Detention. If able, the Tank can suppliment DPS with Steel Tornado or the Healer could use Magicka Detonation. Though Note if Magicka DPS have Magicka Detention to couple with the DPS contribuations from the Tank and Healer runs go more smooth in general.

Even a Stamina DPS has to put in more work in AOE situations if there is a Magicka DPS who does not have Magicka Detention. Same is actually true with 2 Stamina DPS if only one has Steel Tornado. Stamina happens to have other AOE options, however Steel Tornado is just that good.

Viability and being carried are often thinly seperated. They are discretionary and on a person to person basis. Can players get by using to 2 Magicka DPS without Magicka Detention? Yes, but that set up means more work for the Tank and Healer in AOE situations.

Rioht wrote: »

dday3six wrote: »

Viability and being carried are often thinly seperated. They are discretionary and on a person to person basis. Can players get by using to 2 Magicka DPS without Magicka Detention? Yes, but that set up means more work for the Tank and Healer in AOE situations.

Can honestly say (and I'm sure many can vouche for me) I have never been carried in any PvE activity, including Vet16 WGT/ICP because I have not used magicka det as a DPs.

I do have it, and have used it extensively in many builds. However I have found I am able to produce just as much, if not more dps with my class skills AND have much more sustain.

Can't speak for all classes of course, but from my experience I have in no way been gimped by not choosing to use magicka det.

Probably along the lines of when people claimed templars were the only viable healers because they had breath of life. Yet none of them took the time to learn how to effectively use their classes. I have been successfully able to heal with my sorc in every activity I have tried, and have seen even nightblades heal (surprisingly well) effectively.

No skill is required, and no skill is a best in slot type of skill

Required, is going to be personal decision point. BIS however that's a numerical measure. I'll give you an example. On a Magicka DK using Ice Comet/Shooting Star on you main bar will give more Magicka and Magicka Regen. That's more damage and more sustain. Whether or not a player thinks they need those increases doesn't change that they are increases.

If there are no BIS skills, their setup would not be an important aspect of the theorycrafting. The baseline is utilize the passives to get the most out of them.

As far Templar goes it's not that other classes cannot heal, it's that Templar offers on class heals and resource restore. It gives them a the flex to support and DPS. That's why they are favorited as a healer.