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Constructive Criticism About Ultimate Gain In PvP.

Speely
Speely
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I would like to say up front that the current Ultimate gain system is usable and sensible. However, I feel that there is a real opportunity to address a few issues that PvP in ESO has by changing it. I am not proposing this because I think the current system is BAD, but because I see an opportunity to make it considerably better in regard to other related mechanics.

Many players do not like the dominance of zergs. In a vacuum, I don't mind them myself. I like to roam and to be a part of skirmishing groups, or to solo. I consider getting rolled by a zerg to be a logical outcome. More players should equal more winning. No big whup, and I can take my lumps no problem.

But for a large contingent, this is a very problematic issue. And they have points. In a game with a competitive focus, many players want their personal skill level to be the primary arbiter of victory or defeat. That's not unreasonable at all, but the effectiveness of zergs makes this academic at best. I could go on for days about the merits of organization and how numbers need to be important, but I won't here because I think the disgruntled have a point in this case, specifically in a game where zero organization needs to happen to form a zerg. It just happens naturally because objectives are not varied enough and players just clump up.

In addition to the aforementioned disparity between player skill and the dominance of zergs, many of these same players lament the lack of dynamic Ultimate gain. It is one more example of player competence mattering LESS, which again does not sit well with competitive players. They merely want ways to make playing smarter to equal more winning. I am far from an esports type, but I don't think that's an unreasonable desire at all, even as a filthy casual.

Now, this is a war game in a competitive sense, not an arena game. So I understand fully that putting harsh and artificial penalties in place to address zergballs is not realistic. However, let me propose a sort of first step solution that might encourage players by letting them know that the issue is one that is being considered:

Make Ultimate gain dynamic again in Cyrodiil/Imperial City (and any future PvP content,) but reduce the gains for every ally within 50m. As a solo character, the gain should be as rapid as it once was. As someone in a roaming group, it should be about as fast as it is now on average. As a zerg member, it should be very slow. This could be a very simple reduction like 4% per ally in the area (50m or whatever distance tests better.) If dynamic gain is in, players could still increase their base gain, but it would be harder to build in large groups (zergs.) Smaller groups would be able to drop Ults more frequently, and since many Ults are very useful vs large groups, this would be a way for anti-zerg play to be facilitated while not instituting an overly-artificial and/or over-balanced solution.


Note that this is only sensible for PvP. In PvE it would be unworkable for various reasons. For PvE I feel that equalizing Ult gain across the board is a good thing since it renders Ult use a safer variable by which to balance content. In PvP there is less focus on content balancing since the main threat is other players. Giving smaller groups a higher Ultimate gain rate would be a sensible and small step toward providing reasonable tools with which anti-zerg play could become viable.

I you made it this far, thanks so much for reading, and please add your thoughts! ;)
  • Moglijuana
    Moglijuana
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    I 100% agree with you. I'm already gimping myself as a magicka DK (but I still do fairly well) and no dynamic ult gain is such a pain when I am playing solo/small group. Nothing annoys me more when I am comfortably fighting 2-4 people at a time and I get 4 ultimates dropped on me when I only have my 1 that will charge maybe once per encounter.
    Ps4 - PSN:jdmaya
    Dårth Måul (AD- Dunmer Mag DK) Legate
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  • DlSTORTlON
    DlSTORTlON
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    Speely wrote: »

    Make Ultimate gain dynamic again in Cyrodiil/Imperial City (and any future PvP content,) but reduce the gains for every ally within 50m. As a solo character, the gain should be as rapid as it once was. As someone in a roaming group, it should be about as fast as it is now on average. As a zerg member, it should be very slow. This could be a very simple reduction like 4% per ally in the area (50m or whatever distance tests better.) If dynamic gain is in, players could still increase their base gain, but it would be harder to build in large groups (zergs.) Smaller groups would be able to drop Ults more frequently, and since many Ults are very useful vs large groups, this would be a way for anti-zerg play to be facilitated while not instituting an overly-artificial and/or over-balanced solution.

    I agree completely that ultimate gain needs to be dynamic again, with particular reference to DKs. Also I agree that it shouldn't be exploitable for groups to 'charge' ultimates in-between and before fights. However this suggestion just isn't feasible in anyway. The sheer amount of additional checks needed per second for this would be ridiculous, adding additional pressure to an already stressed server system.

    If you'd allow me to offer an alternative... one extremely simple and effortless change to counter the zerg-meta would be switch the Magicka Detonation morphs around. In its current form the instant cast, Proximity Detonation, is continually cast by large groups. Instead of being an anti-zerg skill, it provides an AoE deterrent for anyone wanting to challenge them and boosts their AoE dps. The Inevitable Detonation with its cast time and movement speed reduction while casting, actually discourages people using that morph against large groups. IMO Tool-tips should be:

    Inne_Det.png

    Proxi_Det.png

    ZOS - proving that incompetence is rewarded more often than not since 2007

    Elder Scrolls Online - Designed by geniuses, implemented by Mr. Bean
  • Speely
    Speely
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    @DISTORTION Yeah the technical inviability of this idea had occured to me, and is probably the main thing making it addmitedly unfeasible. I guess I think more in concepts than in practicality, but in ESO's state practicality should probably be the main focus. Good points.

    However, as much as your Mag Det ideas make sense (I like em,) I feel that relegating the solution to one Magicka skill is not a good sole approach either. The tools with which players might combat zergs should be varied and applicable for Stamina users as well. A range of options, i.e. a more fundamental mechanic by which a number of build types could enjoy increased effectiveness vs zergs based on playing well. Encouraging everyone to slot Mag Det is, to me, the same as telling players who are sick of shield-stacking to strap on Shieldbreaker. Sloppy and overly-band-aid. In both cases, the problem is with the thing being "countered," and as such these things should be adjusted rather than just adding specific tools to counter the problem.

    My idea was designed to make a solution a bit more universal, but in retrospect it would likely put a ton of stress on the system and result in even worse performance. So I guess I got nothin. :P
  • Saint314Louis1985
    Saint314Louis1985
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    Im not too sure how ultimate is gained currently or how it was gained before, but maybe make ultimate gain related to damage received and damage dealt if its not already. You could also add ultimate for healing.

    Say its a 1v3 situation and each player has 20k health. Heres the theory.

    Solo player - Since he is fighting 3 players, he would more than likely take more damage than the group of 3 which would also mean hes using more healing. He would also be dishing out more damage since he would be the only one inflicting damage on the group of 3 (60k min. possible damage to deal). Ultimate should in theory be gained faster than the group of 3.

    Group of 3 - Since all 3 are attacking the same person, each individual would be dealing less damage overall (20k min. possible damage to deal). Also, since the solo player can only attack 1 at a time, they would be taking less damage as a group and thus requiring less healing. Ultimate gain should in theory be slower than the solo player.

    Seems like this would make it possible for the solo player to drop ults more often thus evening out the field against a small size group. The rate of ultimate gain would have to be calculated to achieve a decent balance.

    AOE damage may make things a little tricky to implement but overall this may be a decent place to start.

    I pretty much pulled this out my ass so if this is not practical or has already been discussed, please excuse my ignorance. Just throwing out ideas.
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