ZoS~ block casting for weapons.

jelliedsoup · October 2015

Either stop it for skills or allow for weapons.

It's obviously flawed as it is.

DannyLV702 · October 2015

but then that would be fair! no!

Artemisshrikes · October 2015

@zos remove this thread. its totally biased

MisterBigglesworth · October 2015

Block casting should've been removed from the game over a year ago and the PVE combat rebalanced around that. Maybe if they had done so they wouldn't have needed to overcorrect by disabling Stam regen while blocking.

Blocking should be something you do at a specific moment to prevent a huge attack, not something you just hold down while doing your normal attack rotation.

Forestd16b14_ESO · October 2015

Block casting needs to go period nothing to talk about. It's a broken mechanic and broken idea. When you block skills need to be greyed out and when you are casting a skill you can not block gaining the effect and shouldn't be able to start casting another one mid skill use. (The second part is to stop macro users seeing how ZOS isn't hunting them down and banning them.)

jelliedsoup · October 2015

I would like blocking to require some level of skill.

Block, spam aoe is not impressive but effective,

jelliedsoup · October 2015

Artemisshrikes wrote: »

@zos remove this thread. its totally biased

Not sure if trolling or....

Speely · October 2015

MisterBigglesworth wrote: »

Block casting should've been removed from the game over a year ago and the PVE combat rebalanced around that. Maybe if they had done so they wouldn't have needed to overcorrect by disabling Stam regen while blocking.

Blocking should be something you do at a specific moment to prevent a huge attack, not something you just hold down while doing your normal attack rotation.

I 100% agree but ZOS has embraced block casting. Given that, weapons should probably enjoy the same dynamic. My ideal ESO animation system would be one where every action had an animation that carried itself out from start to finish, making players more carefully choose what skills they were using rather than just defaulting to mashing block and hammering FOTM attacks. This would make the interplay of blocking and attacking more like a chess match and a game of reading your opponent. However, this game is not that game and it will never be. As such, block casting should not be the domain of only non-weapon skill users.

That said, block casting is a bad tactic in general so I really don't mind if it's in. I would just like to see things be equal in regard to potential mechanical usability for skills that are relatively equal in potency otherwise.

jelliedsoup wrote: »

Artemisshrikes wrote: »

@zos remove this thread. its totally biased

Not sure if trolling or....

Think they were being sarcastic.

jelliedsoup · October 2015

Speely wrote: »

MisterBigglesworth wrote: »

Block casting should've been removed from the game over a year ago and the PVE combat rebalanced around that. Maybe if they had done so they wouldn't have needed to overcorrect by disabling Stam regen while blocking.

Blocking should be something you do at a specific moment to prevent a huge attack, not something you just hold down while doing your normal attack rotation.

I 100% agree but ZOS has embraced block casting. Given that, weapons should probably enjoy the same dynamic. My ideal ESO animation system would be one where every action had an animation that carried itself out from start to finish, making players more carefully choose what skills they were using rather than just defaulting to mashing block and hammering FOTM attacks. This would make the interplay of blocking and attacking more like a chess match and a game of reading your opponent. However, this game is not that game and it will never be. As such, block casting should not be the domain of only non-weapon skill users.

That said, block casting is a bad tactic in general so I really don't mind if it's in. I would just like to see things be equal in regard to mechanical usability for skills that are relatively equal in potency otherwise.

jelliedsoup wrote: »

Artemisshrikes wrote: »

@zos remove this thread. its totally biased

Not sure if trolling or....

Think they were being sarcastic.

Sad thing is I don't know anymore..

UltimaJoe777 · October 2015

There is a moment of vulnerability while block casting though. If you can time your attack properly you can catch them with their block down. Or you could just keep swinging away and break down their Stamina so they cannot block anymore since this was pretty much the entire reason Zenimax got rid of Stamina Recovery while Blocking.

jelliedsoup · October 2015

UltimaJoe777 wrote: »

There is a moment of vulnerability while block casting though. If you can time your attack properly you can catch them with their block down. Or you could just keep swinging away and break down their Stamina so they cannot block anymore since this was pretty much the entire reason Zenimax got rid of Stamina Recovery while Blocking.

A moment coupled with lag which requires timing...

Your stamina should reduce while you block, irrespective of whether you're getting hit out not

Forestd16b14_ESO · October 2015

UltimaJoe777 wrote: »

There is a moment of vulnerability while block casting though. If you can time your attack properly you can catch them with their block down. Or you could just keep swinging away and break down their Stamina so they cannot block anymore since this was pretty much the entire reason Zenimax got rid of Stamina Recovery while Blocking.

Yea that explains why so many players are still able to perma block cast behind shields. Only use they get now a days.

BuggeX · October 2015

Wb spamers flaming about a Counter to them? how lame

F7sus4 · October 2015

UltimaJoe777 wrote: »

There is a moment of vulnerability while block casting though. If you can time your attack properly you can catch them with their block down. Or you could just keep swinging away and break down their Stamina so they cannot block anymore since this was pretty much the entire reason Zenimax got rid of Stamina Recovery while Blocking.

I'd always say: Trifle with your opponents' Stamina first. Then do your job.
(...)
- Poof! Has anyone seen that block-caster that was still alive here a few seconds ago?

RatedChaotic · October 2015

BuggeX wrote: »

Wb spamers flaming about a Counter to them? how lame

lol

BuggeX · October 2015

jelliedsoup wrote: »

I see it more as a fast attack, like a crit charge.

You could

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

jelliedsoup wrote: »

To be honest I don't get the concept of a stam Sorc.

What skills should it have available which are stam based?
As stam nb build the morphs like surprise attack, ambush make sense.
And before anyone starts on about me being a stam nb I have played one since rollout.
Check out my whining if you don't believe me.

What about teleportation screams 'stamina' to you? Maybe if I can flex my muscles really hard I can teleport too?

What about summoning a magical shadow dagger from chaos sounds like I needed to catch my breath or be winded?

Kammakazi wrote: »

Stamina Sorcerers are pretty much dependent on Wrecking Blow...

Many stam builds are. I have surprise attack and Wb.

Most stam builds really don't have many options,

lets take a Moment and realise our @TE using stambuilds all over and using 2 spamable Stamina skills with high dps,
so he want to nerf a anoying Thing to him where he die regulary, well i laughted way to hard xD

and btw you can blockcast any weaponskill without a casttime, just not wb xD ohh and stealtornado, im sure you have it sloted to, im right @TE?

Sneaky-Snurr · October 2015

Block casting is a byproduct of Animation Cancelling (AC). Really, the root problem of all the macros and block casting is simply AC. @ZOS have to fix this broken mechanic. Look at how useless weapon attack speeds are in this game and it's extremely ridiculous how ~50% increase in attack speed doesn't yield any noticeable effects. This was after launch when attack speed increases can be gained from armour passives, NB's Haste, weighted weapon trait, rapid strikes buff among a few others.

AC has compromised the whole thing and rendered that element of the game to be completely and utterly useless. I can't stress this enough. Animation and impact timing mechanics should be looked into by @ZOS so AC and its byproducts can cease to exist.

Tankqull · October 2015

jelliedsoup wrote: »

Either stop it for skills or allow for weapons.

It's obviously flawed as it is.

you can block cast with stamina attacks...
they require to be instant like magica attacks to be block casted...
so what are you talking about actually?

Sneaky-Snurr wrote: »

Block casting is a byproduct of Animation Cancelling (AC). Really, the root problem of all the macros and block casting is simply AC. @ZOS have to fix this broken mechanic. Look at how useless weapon attack speeds are in this game and it's extremely ridiculous how ~50% increase in attack speed doesn't yield any noticeable effects. This was after launch when attack speed increases can be gained from armour passives, NB's Haste, weighted weapon trait, rapid strikes buff among a few others.

AC has compromised the whole thing and rendered that element of the game to be completely and utterly useless. I can't stress this enough. Animation and impact timing mechanics should be looked into by @ZOS so AC and its byproducts can cease to exist.

and no, blockcasting and annimation canceling are a different kettle of fish.
attack speed has no issue as ZOS was unable to create fluent animation times where a 50% attackspeed reduction would result in a 50% animation time reduction. thus they implemented hard animationtimes of around 0.8sec (thats why we see "casted" abilities do not get below this threshhold) creating an internal CD for the next ability.
only light and heavy attacks have a upspeeded animation time by attackspeed wich lead to the extinction of that stat as it was prety much useless as no one skiped using their high dmg abilities and light/heavy attacks were only timed to fill the gap inbetween two ability usages...

they will never change the way animation cancling works as it will screw situational defense in form of blocking and rolldodging entirely as those abilities require to cancel animations in order to function at all.

talon_vib14_ESO · October 2015

You can already block cast with weapons, it's called "bash". lol

I think the idea is that skills come from magic (in the beginning they were all magika based) so they were coming from some place other than your weapons. Weapon skills do come from your weapon and you cannot do two things with your weapon at the same time with few exceptions. Like I've always felt puncture should be block cast-able because you could jab with your sword over your shield.

Anyway all that being said I have always thought the ability to block and cast abilities at the same time should be removed. I also believe that animation cancelling should not only cancel the animation but the skill and all associated dmg.

BuggeX · October 2015

talon_vib14_ESO wrote: »

You can already block cast with weapons, it's called "bash". lol

I think the idea is that skills come from magic (in the beginning they were all magika based) so they were coming from some place other than your weapons. Weapon skills do come from your weapon and you cannot do two things with your weapon at the same time with few exceptions. Like I've always felt puncture should be block cast-able because you could jab with your sword over your shield.

All s/b skills are blockcast able, dont *** arround

also any other skill from any other weapon is blockcast able, with a few exeptions.

WB
Stealtornado
Flurry
snipe
volley

eliisra · October 2015

talon_vib14_ESO wrote: »

You can already block cast with weapons, it's called "bash". lol

I think the idea is that skills come from magic (in the beginning they were all magika based) so they were coming from some place other than your weapons. Weapon skills do come from your weapon and you cannot do two things with your weapon at the same time with few exceptions. Like I've always felt puncture should be block cast-able because you could jab with your sword over your shield.

There's no "idea" or biased design against weapons. Skills with cast time, channelling or certain excessive animations, cant be used while blocking.

Whether the skill comes from guild, world, alliance, weapon or class, has nothing to do with it.

Loads of weapon skills can be used while blocking. Just not stuff like Snipe or fotm WB, because cast time.

Loads of class skills cant be used while blocking, especially the case for templars. All their class dps abilities will cancel if you touch block mid-action.

Starshadw · October 2015

jelliedsoup wrote: »

Either stop it for skills or allow for weapons.

It's obviously flawed as it is.

Even if they made it possible with weapons, it would still be flawed. Magicka users can block until the cows come home and not have to worry - because their skills don't require stamina to use.

Stamina users can't do the same, because their skills also require stamina.

This is a huge issue with the whole "stacked resource builds." Stamina users must use the resource that powers their skills for basic maneuvers like roll-dodge, break free and block. Magicka users do not have this issue.

It is a core imbalance in the game that ZOS hasn't addressed. I've suggested before that they need to move to a tri-resource setup, where basic maneuvers pull from a third pool (my suggestion was to have it come from the Health stat) so that stamina and magicka pools are solely used for skills.

BuggeX · October 2015

Starshadw wrote: »

jelliedsoup wrote: »

Either stop it for skills or allow for weapons.

It's obviously flawed as it is.

Even if they made it possible with weapons, it would still be flawed. Magicka users can block until the cows come home and not have to worry - because their skills don't require stamina to use.

Stamina users can't do the same, because their skills also require stamina.

This is a huge issue with the whole "stacked resource builds." Stamina users must use the resource that powers their skills for basic maneuvers like roll-dodge, break free and block. Magicka users do not have this issue.

It is a core imbalance in the game that ZOS hasn't addressed. I've suggested before that they need to move to a tri-resource setup, where basic maneuvers pull from a third pool (my suggestion was to have it come from the Health stat) so that stamina and magicka pools are solely used for skills.

yea and how Long you can block as a magicka user with ~10k Stamina?

Starshadw · October 2015

BuggeX wrote: »

yea and how Long you can block as a magicka user with ~10k Stamina?

About as much as the stamina user - IF said stamina user wants to be able to use her/his skills. Think of it this way.

Magicka User has:
10k Stamina
30k Magicka
When they need to roll-dodge, block, or break free, they use that stamina pool, leaving all 30k for skills (which likely also includes some damage mitigation skills and possibly a heal - which may also mean less need to worry about roll-dodging and blocking).

Stamina User has:
10k Magicka
30k Stamina
When they need to roll-dodge, block, or break free - they pull from the stamina pool, thereby reducing the amount of stamina available for skills. So, instead of actually having 30k, it's really more like 20k. Any damage mit and heals are also likely to be pulling from the stamina pool. See what happens? In a fight, the stamina user is far more likely to run out of resources before the magicka user, simply because they are only using ONE resource pool to fuel everything, whereas the magicka user is using two pools. And, those who still have a magicka skill or two on their bars to try and use that pool aren't getting as much bang for the buck because of how small the pool is (which affects spell damage, etc.) - something that, again, the magicka user doesn't need to fret over since basic maneuvers don't have to worry about things like damage and crit.

If ZOS doesn't want to implement a third resource, another possible fix would be to make the player be able to choose from which pool to have basic maneuvers pull. But that would be the final nail in the coffin to folks still trying to play hybrid builds that need both resources.

ColtPython · October 2015

BuggeX wrote: »

Starshadw wrote: »

jelliedsoup wrote: »

Either stop it for skills or allow for weapons.

It's obviously flawed as it is.

Even if they made it possible with weapons, it would still be flawed. Magicka users can block until the cows come home and not have to worry - because their skills don't require stamina to use.

Stamina users can't do the same, because their skills also require stamina.

This is a huge issue with the whole "stacked resource builds." Stamina users must use the resource that powers their skills for basic maneuvers like roll-dodge, break free and block. Magicka users do not have this issue.

It is a core imbalance in the game that ZOS hasn't addressed. I've suggested before that they need to move to a tri-resource setup, where basic maneuvers pull from a third pool (my suggestion was to have it come from the Health stat) so that stamina and magicka pools are solely used for skills.

yea and how Long you can block as a magicka user with ~10k Stamina?

With siphoning strikes my magic NB block casts forever.

My stamina NB wouldn't dare block cast.

jelliedsoup · October 2015

BuggeX wrote: »

jelliedsoup wrote: »

I see it more as a fast attack, like a crit charge.

You could

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

jelliedsoup wrote: »

To be honest I don't get the concept of a stam Sorc.

What skills should it have available which are stam based?
As stam nb build the morphs like surprise attack, ambush make sense.
And before anyone starts on about me being a stam nb I have played one since rollout.
Check out my whining if you don't believe me.

What about teleportation screams 'stamina' to you? Maybe if I can flex my muscles really hard I can teleport too?

What about summoning a magical shadow dagger from chaos sounds like I needed to catch my breath or be winded?

Kammakazi wrote: »

Stamina Sorcerers are pretty much dependent on Wrecking Blow...

Many stam builds are. I have surprise attack and Wb.

Most stam builds really don't have many options,

lets take a Moment and realise our @TE using stambuilds all over and using 2 spamable Stamina skills with high dps,
so he want to nerf a anoying Thing to him where he die regulary, well i laughted way to hard xD

and btw you can blockcast any weaponskill without a casttime, just not wb xD ohh and stealtornado, im sure you have it sloted to, im right @TE?

Nah don't do aoes. I tried it and it's not my style.

jelliedsoup · October 2015

Tankqull wrote: »

jelliedsoup wrote: »

Either stop it for skills or allow for weapons.

It's obviously flawed as it is.

you can block cast with stamina attacks...
they require to be instant like magica attacks to be block casted...
so what are you talking about actually?

Weapon skills.

dodgehopper_ESO · October 2015

jelliedsoup wrote: »

Either stop it for skills or allow for weapons.

It's obviously flawed as it is.

To be fair they'd need to stop magicka regeneration while blocking too. Maybe they should also soak an equal amount of magicka as well as stamina while blocking, and freeze all ability usage for at least 2 seconds. In fact, Blocking is too overpowered, they should just delete the sword and board skill line and replace it with a sandwich.
<Just so it isn't confused: I'm being sarcastic here.>

jelliedsoup · October 2015

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

jelliedsoup wrote: »

Either stop it for skills or allow for weapons.

It's obviously flawed as it is.

To be fair they'd need to stop magicka regeneration while blocking too. Maybe they should also soak an equal amount of magicka as well as stamina while blocking, and freeze all ability usage for at least 2 seconds. In fact, Blocking is too overpowered, they should just delete the sword and board skill line and replace it with a sandwich.
<Just so it isn't confused: I'm being sarcastic here.>

I have no issue with thank builds, the problem is they can deal damage as well, the blocking is way too easy,

A temp tank would be unlikable.,,

nimander99 · October 2015

jelliedsoup wrote: »

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

jelliedsoup wrote: »

Either stop it for skills or allow for weapons.

It's obviously flawed as it is.

To be fair they'd need to stop magicka regeneration while blocking too. Maybe they should also soak an equal amount of magicka as well as stamina while blocking, and freeze all ability usage for at least 2 seconds. In fact, Blocking is too overpowered, they should just delete the sword and board skill line and replace it with a sandwich.
<Just so it isn't confused: I'm being sarcastic here.>

I have no issue with thank builds, the problem is they can deal damage as well, the blocking is way too easy,

A temp tank would be unlikable.,,

I am a temp tank and I can confirm that I'm nigh on un-killable

(I can soak quite a bit of dam in pvp but I cant kill fast enough)

Xjcon · October 2015

Starshadw wrote: »

BuggeX wrote: »

yea and how Long you can block as a magicka user with ~10k Stamina?

About as much as the stamina user - IF said stamina user wants to be able to use her/his skills. Think of it this way.

Magicka User has:
10k Stamina
30k Magicka
When they need to roll-dodge, block, or break free, they use that stamina pool, leaving all 30k for skills (which likely also includes some damage mitigation skills and possibly a heal - which may also mean less need to worry about roll-dodging and blocking).

Stamina User has:
10k Magicka
30k Stamina
When they need to roll-dodge, block, or break free - they pull from the stamina pool, thereby reducing the amount of stamina available for skills. So, instead of actually having 30k, it's really more like 20k. Any damage mit and heals are also likely to be pulling from the stamina pool. See what happens? In a fight, the stamina user is far more likely to run out of resources before the magicka user, simply because they are only using ONE resource pool to fuel everything, whereas the magicka user is using two pools. And, those who still have a magicka skill or two on their bars to try and use that pool aren't getting as much bang for the buck because of how small the pool is (which affects spell damage, etc.) - something that, again, the magicka user doesn't need to fret over since basic maneuvers don't have to worry about things like damage and crit.

If ZOS doesn't want to implement a third resource, another possible fix would be to make the player be able to choose from which pool to have basic maneuvers pull. But that would be the final nail in the coffin to folks still trying to play hybrid builds that need both resources.

Except the stamina user will have a much higher stamina regen and stamina skill cost reduction.