The problem with many forum threads....

bowmanz607 · October 2015

The problem is that many people create threads with generalized grievances. Many provide no basis or reasoned analysis as to how they have come to conclusion or statements they have made. This is very toxic. It limits the discussion to generalized arguments. It does not facilitate debate, but creates unhealthy arguments that equate to siblings yelling at each other. Even when a player starts a thread with a solid basis, they quickly revert to a generalized argument or dismiss others arguments when they recieve well reasoned arguments that counter their points.

I challenge each and everyone of you to stop this behavior. Not only does it limit discussion which quickly reverts to nonsensical and cicular arguments which are essentially reduced to your wrong and I am right. It is time to make a chnage for the better on the forums. Sure, share your opinions. Howvever, back them up with well reasoned and sound arguments. Not only is this the best way to flesh out the real issues for the devs to look at, but it creates a healthy community of people who are all looking to better the game. Moreover, when a player makes a statement backed up by objective analysis, do not dismiss their claims with a "your just defending it cause you use it arument." Counter with objective reasoning yourself to help shed light on your potion as well as the flaws in the other.

Lastly, there are many issues that are l2p. Not all but some. Do not dismiss these statements as a defending your class statement. At the same time people should not say l2p unless they have given the ways in 2h8ch a player can get better within the game. L2p is jot an end all be all, but it does not mean it is not relevant. However, it is only relevant if you are able to articulate the wag in which a player can l2p by giving them strategy or ways to practice etc.

Will you accept the challenge?

Jitterbug · October 2015

bowmanz607 · October 2015

Jitterbug wrote: »

Lmao

Cadbury · October 2015

TL;DR
Be nice to each other

RatedChaotic · October 2015

Welcome to the World Wide Web.

UrQuan · October 2015

Cadbury wrote: »

TL;DR
Be Nice To Each Other

Jitterbug · October 2015

RatedChaotic wrote: »

Welcome to the World Wide Web.

Progress is slow, but he's in it for the long haul.

Cadbury · October 2015

UrQuan wrote: »

Cadbury wrote: »

TL;DR
Be Nice To Each Other

UrQuan · October 2015

Cadbury wrote: »

UrQuan wrote: »

Cadbury wrote: »

TL;DR
Be Nice To Each Other

I was hoping someone would do that

Techlisp · October 2015

UrQuan wrote: »

Cadbury wrote: »

TL;DR
Be Nice To Each Other

"Be most excellent to each other."

Surely Shirley?

Gyudan · October 2015

bowmanz607 wrote: »

The problem is that many people create threads with generalized grievances.

Thanks for illustrating this statement with your own thread, based on generalized grievances against other threads.

CapnPhoton · October 2015

It has gotten a little better lately.

Some requests or criticisms are well thought out and are just making a point or asking for a solution. Until a troll comes along, they are good discussions. These ones are worth paying attention to. But I try to just ignore the ones that are insulting, or don't really say anything. They are just angry rants or witch hunts equal in maturity to middle school playground fodder.

bowmanz607 · October 2015

Gyudan wrote: »

bowmanz607 wrote: »

The problem is that many people create threads with generalized grievances.

Thanks for illustrating this statement with your own thread, based on generalized grievances against other threads.

But then I proceeded to say why and how it is a problem.

Xendyn · October 2015

This might be a good place to drop this link

forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/98564/how-to-make-a-developer-listen-to-you

Gidorick · October 2015

just about all of my threads contain solutions, not problems. instead of just crying about something I don't like or something I think is broken or missing I present ideas on how those aspects could be fixed or added to ESO.

overall I get the feeling that people think that's very annoying.

bowmanz607 · October 2015

Gidorick wrote: »

just about all of my threads contain solutions, not problems. instead of just crying about something I don't like or something I think is broken or missing I present ideas on how those aspects could be fixed or added to ESO.

overall I get the feeling that people think that's very annoying.

Those people don't matter than. Let them get annoyed. I get annoyed at them for not doing that. In the end if you can't articulate an argument, then you won't be listened to. Those who can will be.

dodgehopper_ESO · October 2015

Gidorick wrote: »

just about all of my threads contain solutions, not problems. instead of just crying about something I don't like or something I think is broken or missing I present ideas on how those aspects could be fixed or added to ESO.

overall I get the feeling that people think that's very annoying.

I don't agree with all your suggestions Gidorick but I do appreciate the effort you put in your posts, and I definitely like a lot of the ideas you post. I don't think your posts are annoying at all, I think good player feedback and developer interaction is important in an mmo. I more concerned about whether or not the Devs are reading what we say lately. I don't know if there is enough of them or if they have the time anymore (but this is true with a lot of MMO's). I worry that certain small groups get all the air time with the devs, and other people are left in the back seat. As a hardcore tank player in every MMO I've played, I have to say I'm a bit disenchanted with the path the game has gone for quite some time. I'm at the point personally where I just don't care anymore and play DPS. To be fair I think most MMO's tend to end up favoring certain playstyles over others. I've played some where the Tank is king and others where dps or heals are king. I'm getting off track but this fits my concerns of late with the game.

Cadbury · October 2015

The main issue I see (and this is a reoccurring problem across MMO forums in general) is that there is a large factor of signal-to-noise ratio when it comes to balancing gameplay elements. In my (admittedly) short time here in ESO, I've seen the issues of nerf/buff come up at least several times over all the the classes. One day, I'll see how DK's are weak and being neglected, the next it's Templars.Then NB's. Also Sorcs. And so on and so on.

What comes into play is how people will state their anecdotal evidence as fact, citing how many hours they put into the game as well as how "good" they are in PvP as validation for their claims. Then another will come along with evidence to disprove the first person,also citing their expertise in the matter. Then more people get involved, thumping their chests, eventually devolving into a back-and-forth contest over who's right.And any valuable info is lost.

As I said earlier, it's not a unique issue. It's just something I noticed over the years. Good info getting lost to rhetoric and hearsay.

UrQuan · October 2015

Gidorick wrote: »

just about all of my threads contain solutions, not problems. instead of just crying about something I don't like or something I think is broken or missing I present ideas on how those aspects could be fixed or added to ESO.

overall I get the feeling that people think that's very annoying.

I know that I vastly prefer the threads that offer solutions to perceived problems, rather than just bitching and moaning about the problems. Whether I agree with the solution or whether I agree that the problem is actually a problem in the first place is another story. In general I find that the more thought someone has put into both the problem and the proposed solution, the more likely I am to agree with them. I strongly suspect that the same could be said for ZOS - they're more likely to agree with something that's well thought out.

nimander99 · October 2015

Everyone gets a +1 Insightful Day woooooot!!!!

NobleNerd · October 2015

Gyudan wrote: »

bowmanz607 wrote: »

The problem is that many people create threads with generalized grievances.

Thanks for illustrating this statement with your own thread, based on generalized grievances against other threads.

LOL

Took the words out of my mouth.

Not everyone is going to have a well thought out argument with in depth talking points, charts and rebuttals. As long as it doesn't turn into a back and forth of name calling this IS what the forums are for. Forums are for players of the game to communicate their likes, dislikes, dreams, visions, and much more in a structured layout.

We have mods and a good rules of conduct. This is one thing I believe ZOS has done a decent job enforcing and moderating.

bowmanz607 · October 2015

NobleNerd wrote: »

Gyudan wrote: »

bowmanz607 wrote: »

The problem is that many people create threads with generalized grievances.

Thanks for illustrating this statement with your own thread, based on generalized grievances against other threads.

LOL

Took the words out of my mouth.

Not everyone is going to have a well thought out argument with in depth talking points, charts and rebuttals. As long as it doesn't turn into a back and forth of name calling this IS what the forums are for. Forums are for players of the game to communicate their likes, dislikes, dreams, visions, and much more in a structured layout.

We have mods and a good rules of conduct. This is one thing I believe ZOS has done a decent job enforcing and moderating.

first, the statement you quouted is great media work. taking one sentence out of context to the body. everything after that sentence communicates the why and how of the statement quoted.

second, a player should be able to state why they like something or why they dont like something. If you want a change to happen you should be able to articulate why that change should be made. For instance, lets take a hot topic item right now with cloak. OP says cloak is ridiculous and should be nerfed. Gives no reason to why it is OP or how it should be nerfed. commentor gives reasons to why it should not be nerfed as well as how a perosn having trouble against the ability can ounter cloak. OP then states you must be a NB so I will not listen to you. Many forums threads do this. you dont need an in depth argument or a chart to simply state why you like or dislike something or even how it should be implemented. However, simply stating "this is OP fix it" does nothing. In fact, it is these type of players that then turn around and say that ZOZ is not listening to me. Well how are they supposed to listen to a statement that provides no information whatsoever.

Gidorick · October 2015

Thanks for the kind words guys. I try not to let the negativity on my threads, or any thread for that matter, get to me. We should try to understand that many grievance posts come from players who love ESO but find it lacking. This can lead to frustration and anger.

Of course, to reappropriate a pop-culture phrase, Some players just want to watch Mundus burn.

Oh, and @dodgehopper_ESO, I gave up on the hope that the devs read what we have to say when the one and only Armchair Developer segment aired. The spent most of the time talking about underwater combat and underwater mounts when players on this forum quite clearly stated in multiple threads that we don't need to have, or even want, underwater combat and U don't think we EVER asked for underwater mounts.

At that point I just shrugged and accepted that only the overwhelming horde of complaints ever reach the Devs ears... that may not be true, but it's an acceptable realty.

dodgehopper_ESO · October 2015

One general thought regarding people not providing all the information behind their thoughts. In a forum setting like this, some people have reiterated their point ad nauseum, and they are just offering a rebuttal based on well thought out considerations that they've stated many times before. It might be in part laziness, but at a certain point it becomes excessive to have to restate the issue in its entirety every time. Case in point: Eclipse has been known to be broken in a multitude of ways for a very long time, but to reiterate it every time you point out the problems with the skill isn't always necessary. Sometimes people need to get informed for themselves a little bit.