David v. Goliath - Why ESO will always be a numbers game

Jules · October 2015

You hear a lot about zergs in ESO. Everyone has their own independent definition of a zerg, and we're not all going to agree on the specifics of what that magic number is. However, it's important to at least recognize that there are irrefutable facts that lean in favor of the larger group, all across ESO PVP. Everything that once supported outnumbered combat has been removed from the game. Whether it be 4v16 or 24v80, the outnumbered few seem to almost always fall desperately to the many; regardless of skill or tactic. (Of course excluding the slaughter of people who just stand there.)

This imbalance is extremely problematic because large groups (24+ for the purpose of this argument) are already favored because they have sheer numbers. More people, more eyes for call outs, more damage, more heals. With these advantages alone, it's easy to overwhelm smaller groups. However, they have game mechanics that support this playstyle as well.

Below is a compilation of reasons why zergs have their filthy way with everyone, and everything in ESO.

1. Uncapped Barriers 1000s of points in a damage shield for the entire group. Rotating these on cooldown makes large groups all but infallible
2. **AOE Caps on damage** Only 6 people are hit with max damage of an AOE. This encourages balling up and insulates the individual inside large groups from any real danger
3. Battle Spirit Damage Nerfs This, in conjuncture with AOE caps makes the damage to achieve the kill seem insurmountable
4. Pitiful siege damage Easily purged/purified, easily healed through, easily walked out of.
5. Static Ulti Gain / Non Dynamic Ulti Everyone gains ultis at static rate so whoever has more numbers, has more ultis. In the days of dynamic ulti, groups with smaller numbers could hit more targets. More targets = more crits = more ultis. A significant advantage that was taken from the outnumbered group.
6. Lack of forward camps It is all but impossible to get back to a fight in time before a keep is taken. The only saving grace is if the other group is too slow to repair and a tag is possible. For the smaller group that wipes in these conditions, fights are usually just over.

What do these underlying issues cause?
- Entire factions taking objectives together, Opposing factions stacking their numbers in defense to counteract
- FPS Drops, Serious lag and distorted gameplay for everyone
- Lack of individual gameplay and accountability
- Groups increasing in size exponentially over time to counteract opposing groups

I'm not saying that everyone should strictly solo, or that anything of that nature is realistic. I like fights with lots of people, and I do run in medium sized groups (8-16) most days. However, I enjoy challenging and engaging combat, where I have to think about what skills are ideal and react properly to my opponents. This just isn't possible in a meta that demands numbers over skill. And realistically, numbers over everything. All too often, I watch groups of skilled players on all factions get mindlessly ran over by 40 steel tornadoes and it's incredibly discouraging.

I wish there were smart mechanics in this game that gave the skilled outnumbered groups some edge over the mindless zerg. This meta has gone on far too long and is simply strengthened in current times. We must do something to breathe life back into the small man pvp in this game. Between the zerg meta and the lag, we've lost thousands of great players already.

Goliath never received additional bonuses for being Goliath. His size, his power were advantages in their own right. Had he been, the story would've been a lot less like the story we know, and a lot more like ESO.

Thoughts welcome.

-Jules

Joy_Division · October 2015

Not quite "all the reasons why zergs have their filthy way with everyone."

7. Elimination of the tank role in Cyrodiil - remember when some people actually stood their ground as opposed to running around in glass cannon gear and blinking, cloaking, or mistforming away at the slightest hint of danger?

8. The Futility of Breech Defense - Remember when castle defenders did not concede the outer and inner breeches? No unpurgable oil cats, no tanks, AoE caps, no way to stop a barriered+rapid manuever attacker force = retreat to inside the castle.

9. The functionality of Ground Oils has no been replaced - I hope all of you whose immersion or whatever was broken are happy that ZoS took away the best anti-zerg tool in the game and replaced it with the pain train's favorite skill, proximity detonation.

10. The ESO combat team does not log in to Cyrodiil. - If they did, half the messed up stuff that goes on there would have been addressed in 2014.

11. The lack of halfway decent ranged AoE/disruption skills. I once cast lightning flood against a yellow bombgroup. I'm pretty sure they gained more ultimate than damage I inflicted.

Etc, etc.

Jules · October 2015

Joy_Division wrote: »

Not quite "all the reasons why zergs have their filthy way with everyone."

7. Elimination of the tank role in Cyrodiil - remember when some people actually stood their ground as opposed to running around in glass cannon gear and blinking, cloaking, or mistforming away at the slightest hint of danger?

8. The Futility of Breech Defense - Remember when castle defenders did not concede the outer and inner breeches? No unpurgable oil cats, no tanks, AoE caps, no way to stop a barriered+rapid manuever attacker force = retreat to inside the castle.

9. The functionality of Ground Oils has no been replaced - I hope all of you whose immersion or whatever was broken are happy that ZoS took away the best anti-zerg tool in the game and replaced it with the pain train's favorite skill, proximity detonation.

10. The ESO combat team does not log in to Cyrodiil. - If they did, half the messed up stuff that goes on there would have been addressed in 2014.

11. The lack of halfway decent ranged AoE/disruption skills. I once cast lightning flood against a yellow bombgroup. I'm pretty sure they gained more ultimate than damage I inflicted.

Etc, etc.

You're right, and noted.

Iyas · October 2015

12. Uncapped purge
siege dmg? who cares! Purge purge purge

13. Uncapped maneuver
snares und root would actually be effective against a blob wihtout maneuver. Or it should break from healing

Xiphyla · October 2015

Jules wrote: »

You hear a lot about zergs in ESO. Everyone has their own independent definition of a zerg, and we're not all going to agree on the specifics of what that magic number is. However, it's important to at least recognize that there are irrefutable facts that lean in favor of the larger group, all across ESO PVP. Everything that once supported outnumbered combat has been removed from the game. Whether it be 4v16 or 24v80, the outnumbered few seem to almost always fall desperately to the many; regardless of skill or tactic. (Of course excluding the slaughter of people who just stand there.)

This imbalance is extremely problematic because large groups (24+ for the purpose of this argument) are already favored because they have sheer numbers. More people, more eyes for call outs, more damage, more heals. With these advantages alone, it's easy to overwhelm smaller groups. However, they have game mechanics that support this playstyle as well.

Below is a compilation of reasons why zergs have their filthy way with everyone, and everything in ESO.

1. Uncapped Barriers 1000s of points in a damage shield for the entire group. Rotating these on cooldown makes large groups all but infallible
2. **AOE Caps on damage** Only 6 people are hit with max damage of an AOE. This encourages balling up and insulates the individual inside large groups from any real danger
3. Battle Spirit Damage Nerfs This, in conjuncture with AOE caps makes the damage to achieve the kill seem insurmountable
4. Pitiful siege damage Easily purged/purified, easily healed through, easily walked out of.
5. Static Ulti Gain / Non Dynamic Ulti Everyone gains ultis at static rate so whoever has more numbers, has more ultis. In the days of dynamic ulti, groups with smaller numbers could hit more targets. More targets = more crits = more ultis. A significant advantage that was taken from the outnumbered group.
6. Lack of forward camps It is all but impossible to get back to a fight in time before a keep is taken. The only saving grace is if the other group is too slow to repair and a tag is possible. For the smaller group that wipes in these conditions, fights are usually just over.

What do these underlying issues cause?
- Entire factions taking objectives together, Opposing factions stacking their numbers in defense to counteract
- FPS Drops, Serious lag and distorted gameplay for everyone
- Lack of individual gameplay and accountability
- Groups increasing in size exponentially over time to counteract opposing groups

I'm not saying that everyone should strictly solo, or that anything of that nature is realistic. I like fights with lots of people, and I do run in medium sized groups (8-16) most days. However, I enjoy challenging and engaging combat, where I have to think about what skills are ideal and react properly to my opponents. This just isn't possible in a meta that demands numbers over skill. And realistically, numbers over everything. All too often, I watch groups of skilled players on all factions get mindlessly ran over by 40 steel tornadoes and it's incredibly discouraging.

I wish there were smart mechanics in this game that gave the skilled outnumbered groups some edge over the mindless zerg. This meta has gone on far too long and is simply strengthened in current times. We must do something to breathe life back into the small man pvp in this game. Between the zerg meta and the lag, we've lost thousands of great players already. Thoughts welcome.

-Jules

Firstly this things wont be change or wont be change much and if there's guilds that prefer not to zerg , they wont zerg. There are always guilds that said they dont zerg but they always run back to thier zerg or go with the zerg most of the times. 1) They will say i only got 6 people but behind them is like 20-40 people so they claimed thier victory after they zerged down people. With those kind of mentality for some of the people , i doubt zerging going to be prevented. For those small scale / guild vs guild fight , it rarely happens since people are scared of dying / losing. No matter what changes that is going to be done on uncapped barrier or purge or whatever , i seriously doubt it will be any help.

ToRelax · October 2015

Xiphyla wrote: »

Jules wrote: »

You hear a lot about zergs in ESO. Everyone has their own independent definition of a zerg, and we're not all going to agree on the specifics of what that magic number is. However, it's important to at least recognize that there are irrefutable facts that lean in favor of the larger group, all across ESO PVP. Everything that once supported outnumbered combat has been removed from the game. Whether it be 4v16 or 24v80, the outnumbered few seem to almost always fall desperately to the many; regardless of skill or tactic. (Of course excluding the slaughter of people who just stand there.)

This imbalance is extremely problematic because large groups (24+ for the purpose of this argument) are already favored because they have sheer numbers. More people, more eyes for call outs, more damage, more heals. With these advantages alone, it's easy to overwhelm smaller groups. However, they have game mechanics that support this playstyle as well.

Below is a compilation of reasons why zergs have their filthy way with everyone, and everything in ESO.

1. Uncapped Barriers 1000s of points in a damage shield for the entire group. Rotating these on cooldown makes large groups all but infallible
2. **AOE Caps on damage** Only 6 people are hit with max damage of an AOE. This encourages balling up and insulates the individual inside large groups from any real danger
3. Battle Spirit Damage Nerfs This, in conjuncture with AOE caps makes the damage to achieve the kill seem insurmountable
4. Pitiful siege damage Easily purged/purified, easily healed through, easily walked out of.
5. Static Ulti Gain / Non Dynamic Ulti Everyone gains ultis at static rate so whoever has more numbers, has more ultis. In the days of dynamic ulti, groups with smaller numbers could hit more targets. More targets = more crits = more ultis. A significant advantage that was taken from the outnumbered group.
6. Lack of forward camps It is all but impossible to get back to a fight in time before a keep is taken. The only saving grace is if the other group is too slow to repair and a tag is possible. For the smaller group that wipes in these conditions, fights are usually just over.

What do these underlying issues cause?
- Entire factions taking objectives together, Opposing factions stacking their numbers in defense to counteract
- FPS Drops, Serious lag and distorted gameplay for everyone
- Lack of individual gameplay and accountability
- Groups increasing in size exponentially over time to counteract opposing groups

I'm not saying that everyone should strictly solo, or that anything of that nature is realistic. I like fights with lots of people, and I do run in medium sized groups (8-16) most days. However, I enjoy challenging and engaging combat, where I have to think about what skills are ideal and react properly to my opponents. This just isn't possible in a meta that demands numbers over skill. And realistically, numbers over everything. All too often, I watch groups of skilled players on all factions get mindlessly ran over by 40 steel tornadoes and it's incredibly discouraging.

I wish there were smart mechanics in this game that gave the skilled outnumbered groups some edge over the mindless zerg. This meta has gone on far too long and is simply strengthened in current times. We must do something to breathe life back into the small man pvp in this game. Between the zerg meta and the lag, we've lost thousands of great players already. Thoughts welcome.

-Jules

Firstly this things wont be change or wont be change much and if there's guilds that prefer not to zerg , they wont zerg. There are always guilds that said they dont zerg but they always run back to thier zerg or go with the zerg most of the times. 1) They will say i only got 6 people but behind them is like 20-40 people so they claimed thier victory after they zerged down people. With those kind of mentality for some of the people , i doubt zerging going to be prevented. For those small scale / guild vs guild fight , it rarely happens since people are scared of dying / losing. No matter what changes that is going to be done on uncapped barrier or purge or whatever , i seriously doubt it will be any help.

No one (or at least not many :P) are saying players shouldn't run in large groups at all. Just that the zergball meta is uninteresting and not only that, it even takes the fun out of the game for people outside that group, both enemies and allies.
So if changes would take some of the advantages of that playstyle over a more spread out one, the pvp would be more fun for everyone (or at least many :P).

Alcast · October 2015

Uncapped Barrier is s f...joke. Rotating Barriers= Invincibru

And AoE caps does make lag WORSE, not better, I hope they start to understand that soon, I mean it has been 1 year ffs and they yet have not learned a tiny bit..gg zos

Ghostbane · October 2015

I remember whenever a breach happened in a keep, one or two players would become the 'wall' or the 'seal' of said breach. Tanky and disruptive, to prevent as many of the enemy pouring in as possible. Before that, running outside disrupting siege.

This is an exceptionally rare thing now, because of the run back on death. The only threat whilst on siege is a bomb group, or a glass-NB at the back line.

aco5712 · October 2015

Joy_Division wrote: »

Not quite "all the reasons why zergs have their filthy way with everyone."

7. Elimination of the tank role in Cyrodiil - remember when some people actually stood their ground as opposed to running around in glass cannon gear and blinking, cloaking, or mistforming away at the slightest hint of danger?

8. The Futility of Breech Defense - Remember when castle defenders did not concede the outer and inner breeches? No unpurgable oil cats, no tanks, AoE caps, no way to stop a barriered+rapid manuever attacker force = retreat to inside the castle.

9. The functionality of Ground Oils has no been replaced - I hope all of you whose immersion or whatever was broken are happy that ZoS took away the best anti-zerg tool in the game and replaced it with the pain train's favorite skill, proximity detonation.

10. The ESO combat team does not log in to Cyrodiil. - If they did, half the messed up stuff that goes on there would have been addressed in 2014.

11. The lack of halfway decent ranged AoE/disruption skills. I once cast lightning flood against a yellow bombgroup. I'm pretty sure they gained more ultimate than damage I inflicted.

Etc, etc.

Yo yo yo I take offense to 7 haha

Jules · October 2015

Xiphyla wrote: »

Jules wrote: »

You hear a lot about zergs in ESO. Everyone has their own independent definition of a zerg, and we're not all going to agree on the specifics of what that magic number is. However, it's important to at least recognize that there are irrefutable facts that lean in favor of the larger group, all across ESO PVP. Everything that once supported outnumbered combat has been removed from the game. Whether it be 4v16 or 24v80, the outnumbered few seem to almost always fall desperately to the many; regardless of skill or tactic. (Of course excluding the slaughter of people who just stand there.)

This imbalance is extremely problematic because large groups (24+ for the purpose of this argument) are already favored because they have sheer numbers. More people, more eyes for call outs, more damage, more heals. With these advantages alone, it's easy to overwhelm smaller groups. However, they have game mechanics that support this playstyle as well.

Below is a compilation of reasons why zergs have their filthy way with everyone, and everything in ESO.

1. Uncapped Barriers 1000s of points in a damage shield for the entire group. Rotating these on cooldown makes large groups all but infallible
2. **AOE Caps on damage** Only 6 people are hit with max damage of an AOE. This encourages balling up and insulates the individual inside large groups from any real danger
3. Battle Spirit Damage Nerfs This, in conjuncture with AOE caps makes the damage to achieve the kill seem insurmountable
4. Pitiful siege damage Easily purged/purified, easily healed through, easily walked out of.
5. Static Ulti Gain / Non Dynamic Ulti Everyone gains ultis at static rate so whoever has more numbers, has more ultis. In the days of dynamic ulti, groups with smaller numbers could hit more targets. More targets = more crits = more ultis. A significant advantage that was taken from the outnumbered group.
6. Lack of forward camps It is all but impossible to get back to a fight in time before a keep is taken. The only saving grace is if the other group is too slow to repair and a tag is possible. For the smaller group that wipes in these conditions, fights are usually just over.

What do these underlying issues cause?
- Entire factions taking objectives together, Opposing factions stacking their numbers in defense to counteract
- FPS Drops, Serious lag and distorted gameplay for everyone
- Lack of individual gameplay and accountability
- Groups increasing in size exponentially over time to counteract opposing groups

I'm not saying that everyone should strictly solo, or that anything of that nature is realistic. I like fights with lots of people, and I do run in medium sized groups (8-16) most days. However, I enjoy challenging and engaging combat, where I have to think about what skills are ideal and react properly to my opponents. This just isn't possible in a meta that demands numbers over skill. And realistically, numbers over everything. All too often, I watch groups of skilled players on all factions get mindlessly ran over by 40 steel tornadoes and it's incredibly discouraging.

I wish there were smart mechanics in this game that gave the skilled outnumbered groups some edge over the mindless zerg. This meta has gone on far too long and is simply strengthened in current times. We must do something to breathe life back into the small man pvp in this game. Between the zerg meta and the lag, we've lost thousands of great players already. Thoughts welcome.

-Jules

Firstly this things wont be change or wont be change much and if there's guilds that prefer not to zerg , they wont zerg. There are always guilds that said they dont zerg but they always run back to thier zerg or go with the zerg most of the times. 1) They will say i only got 6 people but behind them is like 20-40 people so they claimed thier victory after they zerged down people. With those kind of mentality for some of the people , i doubt zerging going to be prevented. For those small scale / guild vs guild fight , it rarely happens since people are scared of dying / losing. No matter what changes that is going to be done on uncapped barrier or purge or whatever , i seriously doubt it will be any help.

This isn't about guilds, about factions, about "they Zerged me" so let me call them out on the forums. I'm assuming you're not-so-cleverly trying to insinuate Haxus here. I'm not even gonna bother with a retort bc it's just flat out off topic. I'm talking objectively, and about all outnumbered combat.

Maulkin · October 2015

Broken PvP is broken.

We've been shouting the same stuff for months, yet every change they make strengthens the blob rather than weaken it. I'm mentally fatigued by repeating the same stuff over and over and over.

I have no faith in them no more. They haven't a clue what they're doing. I'm just waiting for a better game to come along.

Weberda · October 2015

10. The ESO combat team does not log in to Cyrodiil. - If they did, half the messed up stuff that goes on there would have been addressed in 2014.

Maybe they have logged in. It's been over a year. You would think that with all that's been said about Cyrodiil at some point they would have made a serious and prolonged effort to experience the problems themselves. Who knows. I commend you guys for keeping up the fight. Frankly after all this time I've just grown apathetic to the whole thing. They're not going to be open and honest about the whole thing so it is very much an exercise in futility.

IxSTALKERxI · October 2015

I can think of some cool changes, for example:

Oil Catapult should remove retreating maneuvers off players. To counter this, players can simply recast retreating maneuvers on their group again. In the brief time they are effected they could potentially lose a couple of players if they don't reapply retreating maneuvers immediately.

Soulac · October 2015

IxSTALKERxI wrote: »

I can think of some cool changes, for example:

Oil Catapult should remove retreating maneuvers off players. To counter this, players can simply recast retreating maneuvers on their group again. In the brief time they are effected they could potentially lose a couple of players if they don't reapply retreating maneuvers immediately.

That's like purge to any dot-applying siege..
Maneuver / Purge / Shuffle shouldn't remove the oil catapult snare, that's it.

Meatbag should be unpurgeable for a couple of seconds, but scale with the number of enemies hitted.
Bring back ground oil.

There are so many ways to make sieges actually useful..

IxSTALKERxI · October 2015

Soulac wrote: »

IxSTALKERxI wrote: »

I can think of some cool changes, for example:

Oil Catapult should remove retreating maneuvers off players. To counter this, players can simply recast retreating maneuvers on their group again. In the brief time they are effected they could potentially lose a couple of players if they don't reapply retreating maneuvers immediately.

That's like purge to any dot-applying siege..
Maneuver / Purge / Shuffle shouldn't remove the oil catapult snare, that's it.

Meatbag should be unpurgeable for a couple of seconds, but scale with the number of enemies hitted.
Bring back ground oil.

There are so many ways to make sieges actually useful..

Oil catapult snare would be kinda OP with no counter though.

Back when it was unpurgaeble it was kinda over the top to the point that it made the game unenjoyable. Like pugs would set up 4 of them and shoot into scroll temples and it was like 'ermahgerdd i can't move anywhereeee'.

Soulac · October 2015

IxSTALKERxI wrote: »

Soulac wrote: »

IxSTALKERxI wrote: »

I can think of some cool changes, for example:

Oil Catapult should remove retreating maneuvers off players. To counter this, players can simply recast retreating maneuvers on their group again. In the brief time they are effected they could potentially lose a couple of players if they don't reapply retreating maneuvers immediately.

That's like purge to any dot-applying siege..
Maneuver / Purge / Shuffle shouldn't remove the oil catapult snare, that's it.

Meatbag should be unpurgeable for a couple of seconds, but scale with the number of enemies hitted.
Bring back ground oil.

There are so many ways to make sieges actually useful..

Oil catapult snare would be kinda OP with no counter though. Back when it was unpurgaeble it was kinda over the top to the point that it made the game unenjoyable. Like pugs would set up 4 of them and shoot into scroll temples and it was like 'ermahgerdd i can't move anywhereeee'.

Should be a short duration snare. Avoid it by not getting hit.

caeliusstarbreaker · October 2015

The biggest proponents for the state of the game are...
ZoS doesn't play their game
No one is ever happy
Human beings will continue to Zerg in pvp for the same reasons they sit at a slot machine and keep hitting one button..... For the flashing lights and the feeling of "winning"

Soulac · October 2015

caeliusstarbreaker wrote: »

The biggest proponents for the state of the game are...
ZoS doesn't play their game
No one is ever happy
Human beings will continue to Zerg in pvp for the same reasons they sit at a slot machine and keep hitting one button..... For the flashing lights and the feeling of "winning"

Let them zerg - no problem, but they shouldn't get any advantages by doing this.
Give us viable zerg buster and most of the stuff being said here instead..
I mean what is so difficult in trying this stuff? They got time to change invis rez or to change the whole ultimate gain system, why not to remove AoE caps, make sieges useful, implement real zerg buster, bring camps back and revert some changes?
Current system isn't working at all, so let's change it.

Joy_Division · October 2015

aco5712 wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Not quite "all the reasons why zergs have their filthy way with everyone."

7. Elimination of the tank role in Cyrodiil - remember when some people actually stood their ground as opposed to running around in glass cannon gear and blinking, cloaking, or mistforming away at the slightest hint of danger?

8. The Futility of Breech Defense - Remember when castle defenders did not concede the outer and inner breeches? No unpurgable oil cats, no tanks, AoE caps, no way to stop a barriered+rapid manuever attacker force = retreat to inside the castle.

9. The functionality of Ground Oils has no been replaced - I hope all of you whose immersion or whatever was broken are happy that ZoS took away the best anti-zerg tool in the game and replaced it with the pain train's favorite skill, proximity detonation.

10. The ESO combat team does not log in to Cyrodiil. - If they did, half the messed up stuff that goes on there would have been addressed in 2014.

11. The lack of halfway decent ranged AoE/disruption skills. I once cast lightning flood against a yellow bombgroup. I'm pretty sure they gained more ultimate than damage I inflicted.

Etc, etc.

Yo yo yo I take offense to 7 haha

You are a brave one good sir. A dying bred, a relic of the past. No matter how much ZoS tries to get you to quit the game or reroll DPS, don't ever leave us

Minno · October 2015

Weberda wrote: »

10. The ESO combat team does not log in to Cyrodiil. - If they did, half the messed up stuff that goes on there would have been addressed in 2014.

Maybe they have logged in. It's been over a year. You would think that with all that's been said about Cyrodiil at some point they would have made a serious and prolonged effort to experience the problems themselves. Who knows. I commend you guys for keeping up the fight. Frankly after all this time I've just grown apathetic to the whole thing. They're not going to be open and honest about the whole thing so it is very much an exercise in futility.

Pvp team was replaced with crownstore/marketing team. [Sic]

Xiphyla · October 2015

Jules wrote: »

Xiphyla wrote: »

Jules wrote: »

You hear a lot about zergs in ESO. Everyone has their own independent definition of a zerg, and we're not all going to agree on the specifics of what that magic number is. However, it's important to at least recognize that there are irrefutable facts that lean in favor of the larger group, all across ESO PVP. Everything that once supported outnumbered combat has been removed from the game. Whether it be 4v16 or 24v80, the outnumbered few seem to almost always fall desperately to the many; regardless of skill or tactic. (Of course excluding the slaughter of people who just stand there.)

This imbalance is extremely problematic because large groups (24+ for the purpose of this argument) are already favored because they have sheer numbers. More people, more eyes for call outs, more damage, more heals. With these advantages alone, it's easy to overwhelm smaller groups. However, they have game mechanics that support this playstyle as well.

Below is a compilation of reasons why zergs have their filthy way with everyone, and everything in ESO.

1. Uncapped Barriers 1000s of points in a damage shield for the entire group. Rotating these on cooldown makes large groups all but infallible
2. **AOE Caps on damage** Only 6 people are hit with max damage of an AOE. This encourages balling up and insulates the individual inside large groups from any real danger
3. Battle Spirit Damage Nerfs This, in conjuncture with AOE caps makes the damage to achieve the kill seem insurmountable
4. Pitiful siege damage Easily purged/purified, easily healed through, easily walked out of.
5. Static Ulti Gain / Non Dynamic Ulti Everyone gains ultis at static rate so whoever has more numbers, has more ultis. In the days of dynamic ulti, groups with smaller numbers could hit more targets. More targets = more crits = more ultis. A significant advantage that was taken from the outnumbered group.
6. Lack of forward camps It is all but impossible to get back to a fight in time before a keep is taken. The only saving grace is if the other group is too slow to repair and a tag is possible. For the smaller group that wipes in these conditions, fights are usually just over.

What do these underlying issues cause?
- Entire factions taking objectives together, Opposing factions stacking their numbers in defense to counteract
- FPS Drops, Serious lag and distorted gameplay for everyone
- Lack of individual gameplay and accountability
- Groups increasing in size exponentially over time to counteract opposing groups

I'm not saying that everyone should strictly solo, or that anything of that nature is realistic. I like fights with lots of people, and I do run in medium sized groups (8-16) most days. However, I enjoy challenging and engaging combat, where I have to think about what skills are ideal and react properly to my opponents. This just isn't possible in a meta that demands numbers over skill. And realistically, numbers over everything. All too often, I watch groups of skilled players on all factions get mindlessly ran over by 40 steel tornadoes and it's incredibly discouraging.

I wish there were smart mechanics in this game that gave the skilled outnumbered groups some edge over the mindless zerg. This meta has gone on far too long and is simply strengthened in current times. We must do something to breathe life back into the small man pvp in this game. Between the zerg meta and the lag, we've lost thousands of great players already. Thoughts welcome.

-Jules

Firstly this things wont be change or wont be change much and if there's guilds that prefer not to zerg , they wont zerg. There are always guilds that said they dont zerg but they always run back to thier zerg or go with the zerg most of the times. 1) They will say i only got 6 people but behind them is like 20-40 people so they claimed thier victory after they zerged down people. With those kind of mentality for some of the people , i doubt zerging going to be prevented. For those small scale / guild vs guild fight , it rarely happens since people are scared of dying / losing. No matter what changes that is going to be done on uncapped barrier or purge or whatever , i seriously doubt it will be any help.

This isn't about guilds, about factions, about "they Zerged me" so let me call them out on the forums. I'm assuming you're not-so-cleverly trying to insinuate Haxus here. I'm not even gonna bother with a retort bc it's just flat out off topic. I'm talking objectively, and about all outnumbered combat.

I didnt even said names , you guilty-conscious lol ? I'm saying about this game as a whole. If you tell me guilds dont make factions then fair enough.

Satiar · October 2015

@Jules

Of what concern are pure numbers to you? For a guild like Haxus, alone without support, how big of a Zerg is it before it isn't something you can farm? 40? 60?

I'd say the case has always been not so much the numbers but guild groups like yours or mine. I'm not afraid of 60 yellows, I'm afraid of the 20 man guild group. When the skill level is similar, it becomes more about tactics and numbers, cuz an awesome 16 man won't beat an awesome 24 man without superior tactics and a bit of luck.

Arguably, that's how it should be.

RinaldoGandolphi · October 2015

All these topics on zergs lately, were relaly big on irony around here.....

Not direct at you OP just saying in general, just observing has been very interesting.....

please carry on

CJohnson81 · October 2015

I love the idea of mass-scale sieges, but the advantage should go to the group with the best leaders. The Zerg should feel comfort in numbers, because the size of the group is the advantage, they don't need buffs on top of it.

I'm loving the idea of really powering the siege weapons against players so that you get some insta-kills and splash damage. The siegers won't want to be like fish in a barrel to be shot at - so the group will naturally spread out and the group leader will be tasked with strategically focusing efforts to breach a keep while also trying to keep players spread out.

This could benefit the small group players too, because they could pick off individuals along the outskirts of a battle or set up hidden mortar sites to take out the zerg from a safe distance.

ArcVelarian · October 2015

Give Purge a cast time of ~2 seconds. A zerg that's holding still is a hella lot easier to break.
Increase the damage of siege engine dots by ~50%.
Uncap the number of effected targets by AoEs.
Make Rapid Maneuvers wear off after taking a certain amount of damage.
Bring back the ability to set oil pots on the ground.

hammayolettuce · October 2015

CJohnson81 wrote: »

I love the idea of mass-scale sieges, but the advantage should go to the group with the best leaders. The Zerg should feel comfort in numbers, because the size of the group is the advantage, they don't need buffs on top of it.

I'm loving the idea of really powering the siege weapons against players so that you get some insta-kills and splash damage. The siegers won't want to be like fish in a barrel to be shot at - so the group will naturally spread out and the group leader will be tasked with strategically focusing efforts to breach a keep while also trying to keep players spread out.

This could benefit the small group players too, because they could pick off individuals along the outskirts of a battle or set up hidden mortar sites to take out the zerg from a safe distance.

Because of how healing works in this game and purges work, having 1 shot siege or increasing siege damage will only hurt small groups even more. And here is why:

12vs24. .. Group of 12 drops 2 players for 1 meat bag and 1 treb they now have 2 less dps and possibly less heals as well.

Group of 24 drops 4 players for any siege they want.. Group of 20 still has double the numbers of the other will double the dps and healing.

The only solution to these zergs is dynamic ultimate generation and to make prox det have no AOE cap and and scale it damage off of targets hit. So if 6 are hit it does mediocre damage. If 20+ are hit GG if you were low health.

Also the healing nerf crushed solo to small groups and left the large groups primarily unaffected when it should have been the opposite.

FENGRUSH · October 2015

Jules wrote: »

You hear a lot about zergs in ESO. Everyone has their own independent definition of a zerg, and we're not all going to agree on the specifics of what that magic number is. However, it's important to at least recognize that there are irrefutable facts that lean in favor of the larger group, all across ESO PVP. Everything that once supported outnumbered combat has been removed from the game. Whether it be 4v16 or 24v80, the outnumbered few seem to almost always fall desperately to the many; regardless of skill or tactic. (Of course excluding the slaughter of people who just stand there.)

This imbalance is extremely problematic because large groups (24+ for the purpose of this argument) are already favored because they have sheer numbers. More people, more eyes for call outs, more damage, more heals. With these advantages alone, it's easy to overwhelm smaller groups. However, they have game mechanics that support this playstyle as well.

Below is a compilation of reasons why zergs have their filthy way with everyone, and everything in ESO.

1. Uncapped Barriers 1000s of points in a damage shield for the entire group. Rotating these on cooldown makes large groups all but infallible
2. **AOE Caps on damage** Only 6 people are hit with max damage of an AOE. This encourages balling up and insulates the individual inside large groups from any real danger
3. Battle Spirit Damage Nerfs This, in conjuncture with AOE caps makes the damage to achieve the kill seem insurmountable
4. Pitiful siege damage Easily purged/purified, easily healed through, easily walked out of.
5. Static Ulti Gain / Non Dynamic Ulti Everyone gains ultis at static rate so whoever has more numbers, has more ultis. In the days of dynamic ulti, groups with smaller numbers could hit more targets. More targets = more crits = more ultis. A significant advantage that was taken from the outnumbered group.
6. Lack of forward camps It is all but impossible to get back to a fight in time before a keep is taken. The only saving grace is if the other group is too slow to repair and a tag is possible. For the smaller group that wipes in these conditions, fights are usually just over.

What do these underlying issues cause?
- Entire factions taking objectives together, Opposing factions stacking their numbers in defense to counteract
- FPS Drops, Serious lag and distorted gameplay for everyone
- Lack of individual gameplay and accountability
- Groups increasing in size exponentially over time to counteract opposing groups

I'm not saying that everyone should strictly solo, or that anything of that nature is realistic. I like fights with lots of people, and I do run in medium sized groups (8-16) most days. However, I enjoy challenging and engaging combat, where I have to think about what skills are ideal and react properly to my opponents. This just isn't possible in a meta that demands numbers over skill. And realistically, numbers over everything. All too often, I watch groups of skilled players on all factions get mindlessly ran over by 40 steel tornadoes and it's incredibly discouraging.

I wish there were smart mechanics in this game that gave the skilled outnumbered groups some edge over the mindless zerg. This meta has gone on far too long and is simply strengthened in current times. We must do something to breathe life back into the small man pvp in this game. Between the zerg meta and the lag, we've lost thousands of great players already.

Goliath never received additional bonuses for being Goliath. His size, his power were advantages in their own right. Had he been, the story would've been a lot less like the story we know, and a lot more like ESO.

Thoughts welcome.

-Jules

Great post - great points. Hearing this from a group as well that enjoys medium-large scale PvP, I commend you for stepping forward and pointing out these things. Lord FENGRUSH salutes you!

Valindor Magnus · October 2015

I would just like to point out the current meta is just a natural evolution of combat in cyrodiil. The minute the first guild wiped an opposing guild with steel tornado spam in 1.6 the guild that was crushed by it changed their builds to match it. Same thing with proxy det, barrier, and other common "Zerg" tools. Quite frankly I think no matter what happens the meta will always evolve into something ugly because everyone pushes each other to further extremes in order to min max their efficiency in group/Zerg play. Not trying to defend this balled up aoe style of play I'm simply stating that this meta was only natural given the skills and mechanics that this game operates on. This meta exists not only because zos has, either knowingly or out of ignorance, given zergs tools to succeed but also because we as players push efficiency to the extreme out of competition. I see all three factions complain about zergging but all three factions still do it. We can't just expect zos to solve the issues of a meta that we took part in creating. We as players are going to have to make changes as well. Didn't some old wrinkly fella once say be the change you want to see in the world?

Valindor Magnus · October 2015

Would also like to address this suggestion of increasing siege damage. If siege damage is increased enough to be effective against zergs then what's gonna stop solo players from using it against other small man groups? I don't think the solution is as simple as just giving anyone and everyone a way of destroying a large group of enemies. Any change that makes killing enemies easier just means more horse simulator online. It's a tough balance act of keeping everyone happy and quite frankly is pretty much impossible at this point.

Satiar · October 2015

I just don't think this is a thing to be solved . there's no reasonable mechanic that makes adding another skilled player to your group a bad thing. Dynamic ulti is really the only thing at all, a boost without a penalty for the larger group beyond denial of ultimate.

Muizer · October 2015

I'd be happy with a major speed debuff for people who clump together. I think it's doable. I don't mind the zerg being strong defensively and offensively, but strong AND fast is too much.

"Swarm" would be a better term for zerg IMHO. At least pinpoint its main disruptive effect.