AoE Cap - Lord Fengrush hits it on the head

FENGRUSH · October 2015

BuggeX wrote: »

You said to increes hp/res from mobs to balance the aoe farming.
While you do this weak players are affrcted,

Yea - in trials. Outside of that, its not needed.

It is clear youre reaching here. In case youre wondering what that means, it means youre desperate to say anything to keep AOE caps from being removed.

Sureshawt · October 2015

Lava_Croft wrote: »

There's no argument to be made against the removal of AoE caps since just about any other solution has failed so far. If it doesn't work out, it can always be reverted.

Unless you don't want an AoE centric game where everyone just runs around spamming AoE damage, purges, heals and shields without any need to target anything. Biggest blob with AoEs wins. We already see it now under most situations especially inside structures or wall running.

AoEs by the nature of the mechanic encourage blobbing and simply removing AoE caps without retooling the mechanic will just make things worse.

Imho the AoE mechanic just encourages a lazy and boring play style. However, I can deal with it if it is used tactically or if it can be designed to be a true blob bluster that scales damage the more players it hits and does significantly less damage if it only hits a few.

Simply raising the caps will just magnify the problem.

-AoE, hits an unlimited number of players (check - assuming it is lifted)
-AoE, no targeting needed (check)
-AoE, hits for equivalent damage/heals/shields/purges/speed/snare (check, check, check....)
-AoE, hits stealth/cloak (check)

Somebody explain why you would want to run with anything else in a group of any size?

BuggeX · October 2015

FENGRUSH wrote: »

BuggeX wrote: »

You said to increes hp/res from mobs to balance the aoe farming.
While you do this weak players are affrcted,

Yea - in trials. Outside of that, its not needed.

It is clear youre reaching here. In case youre wondering what that means, it means youre desperate to say anything to keep AOE caps from being removed.

so this will be a hard Impact to the market.

No caps with the same res/hp in IC will lead that more items and mony will be in game.
Short after the removal of the cap it will lead that the Price will sink, but at Long term it will cause that the priceing will explode cause more mony is ingame. we dont have enought mony sink to compensate this.

i dont tryhard to Keep the cap, i just see anything wath will Change, but it seems you dont

Frawr · October 2015

Sureshawt wrote: »

Lava_Croft wrote: »

There's no argument to be made against the removal of AoE caps since just about any other solution has failed so far. If it doesn't work out, it can always be reverted.

Unless you don't want an AoE centric game where everyone just runs around spamming AoE damage, purges, heals and shields without any need to target anything. Biggest blob with AoEs wins. We already see it now under most situations especially inside structures or wall running.

AoEs by the nature of the mechanic encourage blobbing and simply removing AoE caps without retooling the mechanic will just make things worse.

Imho the AoE mechanic just encourages a lazy and boring play style. However, I can deal with it if it is used tactically or if it can be designed to be a true blob bluster that scales damage the more players it hits and does significantly less damage if it only hits a few.

Simply raising the caps will just magnify the problem.

-AoE, hits an unlimited number of players (check - assuming it is lifted)
-AoE, no targeting needed (check)
-AoE, hits for equivalent damage/heals/shields/purges/speed/snare (check)
-AoE, hits stealth/cloak (check)

Somebody explain why you would want to run with anything else in a group of any size?

This is already pvp.

On eu, removing the cap won't increase this because everyone already does it.

It will, however, give opportunity for small organised groups to time attacks to break up these large zergs.

Anyway, @Lava_Croft hit the nail on the head - try it!

Xsorus · October 2015

Every time I see someone post "Well if you remove caps my 24 man will just be able to do that much more damage to you" I cry a little inside

Completely ignoring that if Caps exist or not....if 24 people are bombing 4 people..or hell 6 people...It doesn't matter..Those 4 or 6 people are going to probably bloody die

What removing caps does is allow for those 4 or 6 people to get a good swipe on that 24 group and take a lot down....It worked the same way in DAOC..if an 8 man ran across 24 people who were organized...Unless they flat out got lucky and bombed them down super quick..You would probably die..which is how it should work..but at least they had a bloody chance.

Zheg · October 2015

Im going to play devils advocate for a minute. As I and others have already said, the aoe cap REALLY does not factor into most fights as some people in here seem to think it does, and is the last thing groups are thinking of when there's a call to be on crown. Anyway, devils advocate commence.

ESO pvp is intended for and designed for large scale fighting, group/s v group/s. That doesn't mean you can't small man or solo, but there's no denying the intention is for large scale battles. With that said, these 'epic' large battles are less fun when the fight is over in a second, yes? Does anyone disagree? So if the goal is to have large fights that actually last and not a one-and-done bomb, being able to obliterate an entire raid in a second runs counter to the goal. By the very nature of game mechanics, large numbers o players in these fights are drawn towards eachother even if not in the same group, it's just how people fight in large scale pvp. The aoe cap can serve as a means to mitigate the one-and-done bomb that would inevitably happen when 2 or 3 sides collide with 20+ ults a piece. This may negatively impact the other areas of pvp, but obviously an argument can be made that it protects large scale group v group fights by lessoning the chance that entire swaths of players melt in less than a second, and what should be a good fight ends with disappointment.. That's not to say I'm convinced of this argument, but I should think it certainly doesn't mean the cap removal should be a one-sided argument and so easily written off as an obvious necessity.

The removal was sold as a means to improve pvp, but fengrush has already admitted it won't help a small man beat a coordinated raid, which means it just helps small mans fight larger numbers of bad and new pvpers. Is roflstomping them good for pvp? Debatable. Furthermore, the ONE devils advocate argument I made should show that the cap can be healthy for the majority of pvp (large scale fights), which is also the intended style of pvp. So removing it in the hopes of improving small scale pvp's ability to solely kill bad players is not such a convincing argument as a 'betterment for all pvp' if at the same time it promote one-shot bombs in place of actual engagements.

Do I think the cap is stupid? Absolutely. Do I think people are justified in clamoring for changes when they clearly aren't thinking critically about the effects? Hell no. This problem seems to be endemic when it comes the the playerbase demanding changes they assume are good ideas. Demand debate and an evaluation of pros and cons, because there are other people that have perspective you may lack.

Would I like for the Zerg issue to be addressed? Yes. Would I like for mechanics to be corrected so we don't have this bizarre aoe cap? Yes. But stop saying this is one simple fix that will overall improve pvp when it's clearly not that cut and dry.

FENGRUSH · October 2015

Zheg wrote: »

Im going to play devils advocate for a minute. As I and others have already said, the aoe cap REALLY does not factor into most fights as some people in here seem to think it does, and is the last thing groups are thinking of when there's a call to be on crown. Anyway, devils advocate commence.

ESO pvp is intended for and designed for large scale fighting, group/s v group/s. That doesn't mean you can't small man or solo, but there's no denying the intention is for large scale battles. With that said, these 'epic' large battles are less fun when the fight is over in a second, yes? Does anyone disagree? So if the goal is to have large fights that actually last and not a one-and-done bomb, being able to obliterate an entire raid in a second runs counter to the goal. By the very nature of game mechanics, large numbers o players in these fights are drawn towards eachother even if not in the same group, it's just how people fight in large scale pvp. The aoe cap can serve as a means to mitigate the one-and-done bomb that would inevitably happen when 2 or 3 sides collide with 20+ ults a piece. This may negatively impact the other areas of pvp, but obviously an argument can be made that it protects large scale group v group fights by lessoning the chance that entire swaths of players melt in less than a second, and what should be a good fight ends with disappointment.. That's not to say I'm convinced of this argument, but I should think it certainly doesn't mean the cap removal should be a one-sided argument and so easily written off as an obvious necessity.

The removal was sold as a means to improve pvp, but fengrush has already admitted it won't help a small man beat a coordinated raid, which means it just helps small mans fight larger numbers of bad and new pvpers. Is roflstomping them good for pvp? Debatable. Furthermore, the ONE devils advocate argument I made should show that the cap can be healthy for the majority of pvp (large scale fights), which is also the intended style of pvp. So removing it in the hopes of improving small scale pvp's ability to solely kill bad players is not such a convincing argument as a 'betterment for all pvp' if at the same time it promote one-shot bombs in place of actual engagements.

Do I think the cap is stupid? Absolutely. Do I think people are justified in clamoring for changes when they clearly aren't thinking critically about the effects? Hell no. This problem seems to be endemic when it comes the the playerbase demanding changes they assume are good ideas. Demand debate and an evaluation of pros and cons, because there are other people that have perspective you may lack.

Would I like for the Zerg issue to be addressed? Yes. Would I like for mechanics to be corrected so we don't have this bizarre aoe cap? Yes. But stop saying this is one simple fix that will overall improve pvp when it's clearly not that cut and dry.

It does allow 4 people to fight 24 - just not head to head. In reality, people are throwing around the number 4 a lot. If I had an 8 man group of what my group does, we would do pretty well against most full raids on sweeps, flanks, and ambushes.

Keep in mind the 24 people have to attack the keep, the 8 have the advantage of defending and ambushing. With AOE caps, you might as well just exit out the back with 8 and go find a different fight.

Xandryah · October 2015

I'm not sure what the problem is with aoe caps... but i think i know... it's not really a problem in swtor's warzones, aoe heals..

when there are 3 healers for instance...it makes sense to focus on a dps (also when there is only 1 healer to be honest)

personally (idk the numbers, but i have the feeling) that the problem is that healing generates high numbers and makes dps-ing harder...aoe heals should heal less , than single-target heals (> swtor); also crit-chance is too high, although dps'ers crit as well..

anyways healing should always generate smaller numbers than damaging, just like in real life > destroying is easier than building...

Satiar · October 2015

@Satiar Do you not remember countless battles of Hijinx 20+ groups dying to my 4 man? These things happened. We lost a lot of fights too. But we had a chance to win them just as well.

I ruined a full raid with 5 people day before yesterday, still happens. Only, it doesn't happen to good groups anymore because the game itself has changed. I remember precisely one of what you're talking about, and it had very little to do with caps and very much to do with how the game was back than. Back than you could put a DKS down and if people didn't get out if it FAST they'd just die. That kind of burst isn't in the game anymore. Groups also have better rotations and a fuller understanding of game mechanics now.

Long story short, I'm not against AOE caps being removed. But I also fail to see what it will accomplish. Old days are not coming back, no more instamelting a raid with 4 people before they have a chance to barrier, recover and melt you back. What you should be arguing for, in my opinion, is the ulti gain. That's the big one for small groups, that gave you a competitive edge against larger raids and handicapped larger raids instead of giving them a big damage bonus.

Anyways, good luck with the whole thingy, let's see if caps can go. And for the love of god get someone who raids on your next panel. No offense to any of y'all but there's a been a demonstrated lack of understanding regarding raid mechanics ("stack on crown for less damage!" being chief among them) and why the work like they do. That, or you're just not interested enough to get into it which is it's own sin worth correcting

Takllin · October 2015

Yeah I'm sorry but there isn't any justifiable reason to keep the AoE caps. Some people need to drop the egos and get off their high horses so that we can have a rationale discussion about this, and not take it as some kind of personal attack against their guild.

The point being right now, is that anyone who has smaller numbers than you is already at a distinct disadvantage because of how they scale down AoE damage. Quit the stuff about 4 man vs 24 man, I remember quite well very recently RAGE members getting into forum PvP with people about the numbers game. Each patch, they keep reducing the amount of skill needed to do well in PvP in relation to the amount of people in your group/running alongside you. I don't understand how some people fail to recognize this.

A larger group already has the advantage of more heals, debuffs, dps, etc abilities that they can cast. They should not have damage mitigation as high as it is right now as well. Stop reinforcing poor play, this doesn't help players get better, it only lets them settle for mediocrity.

Xandryah · October 2015

also, heals generated by dps themselves are very high... roles are like gw2, not very defined... those heals combined with healer's heals make for a long fight too...

Sureshawt · October 2015

Frawr wrote: »

Sureshawt wrote: »

Lava_Croft wrote: »

There's no argument to be made against the removal of AoE caps since just about any other solution has failed so far. If it doesn't work out, it can always be reverted.

Unless you don't want an AoE centric game where everyone just runs around spamming AoE damage, purges, heals and shields without any need to target anything. Biggest blob with AoEs wins. We already see it now under most situations especially inside structures or wall running.

AoEs by the nature of the mechanic encourage blobbing and simply removing AoE caps without retooling the mechanic will just make things worse.

Imho the AoE mechanic just encourages a lazy and boring play style. However, I can deal with it if it is used tactically or if it can be designed to be a true blob bluster that scales damage the more players it hits and does significantly less damage if it only hits a few.

Simply raising the caps will just magnify the problem.

-AoE, hits an unlimited number of players (check - assuming it is lifted)
-AoE, no targeting needed (check)
-AoE, hits for equivalent damage/heals/shields/purges/speed/snare (check)
-AoE, hits stealth/cloak (check)

Somebody explain why you would want to run with anything else in a group of any size?

This is already pvp.

On eu, removing the cap won't increase this because everyone already does it.

It will, however, give opportunity for small organised groups to time attacks to break up these large zergs.

Anyway, @Lava_Croft hit the nail on the head - try it!

I see where the disconnect is now. You seem imply that the larger 'zerg' is unorganized but If the larger 'zerg' is organized you will have zero opportunity.

So what this is really about is allowing a small organized group to easily wipe the floor with a large 'zerg' of unorganized players in a matter of seconds. Good for the epeens of a few ,assuming you get a rise out of that kind of thing, but definitely not good for the PvP population/game as a whole.

So this boils down to an elitist argument that we should be able to mow down large 'zergs' of unorganized players in seconds without breaking a sweat because we run in a small organized blob and simply spam AoEs.

Is this about right?

Xjcon · October 2015

This may have already been said. Multiply the damage AOE does against 10 or more players. If you get a group of 20 people trying to zerg you just jump in the middle and do some aoe and they should all explode. No more zerg balls.

Rylana · October 2015

Xjcon wrote: »

This may have already been said. Multiply the damage AOE does against 10 or more players. If you get a group of 20 people trying to zerg you just jump in the middle and do some aoe and they should all explode. No more zerg balls.

This is the exact scenario that should NOT happen. Do you have any idea how hard some det builds hit for already? Some of the stronger ones (meth is a damnnn good example of this) can already lay down enough damage to nearly instashot a whole clump of people, and sometimes it actually does already happen if initiation catches them completely asleep.

You realize what happens if you start multiplying damage?

Huckdabuck · October 2015

So time for some more honest discussion concerning a "What if" analysis....

What if - Zenimax actually decides in their "infinite wisdom" to remove the AoE caps (while doing it bug free) from the game due to the forum uproar which has been present since they first put them in place.

Scenario 1 - @FENGRUSH and his brave group of 4 dive bombs (INSERT ORGANIZED 24 MAN RAID NAME HERE) and kills a few folks and wipes or runs away to safety but isn't as effective as he thinks he should be. What exactly is the next item on the table to begin rallying against/for (dynamic ulti generation!!!!) in order to help the small man actually have a one up against the overwhelming numbers? Do the brave 4 concede defeat? Do they uninstall due to not being able to play how they want? Do they run around in IC due to the group constraints that are present there (ie line of sight)? Do you start looking for relatively similar sized groups to hit instead?

Scenario 2 - @FENGRUSH and his brave group of 4 dive bombs (INSERT ORGANIZED 24 MAN RAID NAME HERE) and kills everyone in glorious battle. Do the brave 4 write songs of their conquest? Do the forums light up with QQ from the organized guilds? Do the organized guilds adapt/overcome and move to a new meta and continue the current vicious cycle which will lead to the next round of forum QQ with ongoing issues?

Scenario 3 - (INSERT ORGANIZED 24 MAN RAID NAME HERE) dive bombs another (INSERT ORGANIZED 24 MAN RAID NAME HERE) raid and wipes them or gets wiped. What exactly was accomplished here that hasn't already been done many times before? The larger group battles is where ZOS is apparently balancing the PvP side of the game as far as I can tell. IE...see Zheg's post above.

Scenario 4 - (INSERT ORGANIZED 24 MAN RAID NAME HERE) dive bombs 2+ (INSERT ORGANIZED 24 MAN RAID NAME HERE) raid and wipes them. What exactly was accomplished here that hasn't already been done many times before? In the current meta, this is pretty much where raising the AoE cap would be disastrous for the 2+ groups as it's getting somewhat hairy at times to finish them off with the instant rez's we've all been seeing lately. It's this one point alone where you're getting the organized raid guilds telling you that you're making them stronger.

And before replying with a snide/flippant comment......this is not a jab rather it's a couple of honest questions to the most probable "what ifs".

I tend to agree with Steve on this....y'all should be shouting from the ceilings for them to revert the ultimate generation change as that was truly what evened the odds.

EDIT - Just so it's clear....I'm neither for nor against the AoE caps....I just play the game that they put out and enjoy my time here while doing so. And YES I know there are far many more scenarios that I could have listed but this was already getting a little long winded.

Takllin · October 2015

Rylana wrote: »

Xjcon wrote: »

This may have already been said. Multiply the damage AOE does against 10 or more players. If you get a group of 20 people trying to zerg you just jump in the middle and do some aoe and they should all explode. No more zerg balls.

This is the exact scenario that should NOT happen.

Yeah no bueno. I don't want singular people wiping entire raids, that's not the point of this.

Zheg · October 2015

FENGRUSH wrote: »

Zheg wrote: »

Im going to play devils advocate for a minute. As I and others have already said, the aoe cap REALLY does not factor into most fights as some people in here seem to think it does, and is the last thing groups are thinking of when there's a call to be on crown. Anyway, devils advocate commence.

ESO pvp is intended for and designed for large scale fighting, group/s v group/s. That doesn't mean you can't small man or solo, but there's no denying the intention is for large scale battles. With that said, these 'epic' large battles are less fun when the fight is over in a second, yes? Does anyone disagree? So if the goal is to have large fights that actually last and not a one-and-done bomb, being able to obliterate an entire raid in a second runs counter to the goal. By the very nature of game mechanics, large numbers o players in these fights are drawn towards eachother even if not in the same group, it's just how people fight in large scale pvp. The aoe cap can serve as a means to mitigate the one-and-done bomb that would inevitably happen when 2 or 3 sides collide with 20+ ults a piece. This may negatively impact the other areas of pvp, but obviously an argument can be made that it protects large scale group v group fights by lessoning the chance that entire swaths of players melt in less than a second, and what should be a good fight ends with disappointment.. That's not to say I'm convinced of this argument, but I should think it certainly doesn't mean the cap removal should be a one-sided argument and so easily written off as an obvious necessity.

The removal was sold as a means to improve pvp, but fengrush has already admitted it won't help a small man beat a coordinated raid, which means it just helps small mans fight larger numbers of bad and new pvpers. Is roflstomping them good for pvp? Debatable. Furthermore, the ONE devils advocate argument I made should show that the cap can be healthy for the majority of pvp (large scale fights), which is also the intended style of pvp. So removing it in the hopes of improving small scale pvp's ability to solely kill bad players is not such a convincing argument as a 'betterment for all pvp' if at the same time it promote one-shot bombs in place of actual engagements.

Do I think the cap is stupid? Absolutely. Do I think people are justified in clamoring for changes when they clearly aren't thinking critically about the effects? Hell no. This problem seems to be endemic when it comes the the playerbase demanding changes they assume are good ideas. Demand debate and an evaluation of pros and cons, because there are other people that have perspective you may lack.

Would I like for the Zerg issue to be addressed? Yes. Would I like for mechanics to be corrected so we don't have this bizarre aoe cap? Yes. But stop saying this is one simple fix that will overall improve pvp when it's clearly not that cut and dry.

It does allow 4 people to fight 24 - just not head to head. In reality, people are throwing around the number 4 a lot. If I had an 8 man group of what my group does, we would do pretty well against most full raids on sweeps, flanks, and ambushes.

Keep in mind the 24 people have to attack the keep, the 8 have the advantage of defending and ambushing. With AOE caps, you might as well just exit out the back with 8 and go find a different fight.

Do you disagree that removing the cap has the potential to negatively impact large group v large group pvp by reducing fight times, promoting stealth bombs, and overall made these engagements about who ult dumps first? People have been asking for a single reason why the cap shouldn't be removed, and I provided you with one.

If you do disagree, you're going to need to explain how it won't make large engagements even shorter than they currently are. If you agree, then the argument comes down to potentially improving small v large pvp at the expense of large v large pvp, which is clearly not benefitting all of pvp like you said was the goal. Just trying to point out the contradiction.

Ishammael · October 2015

Satiar wrote: »

Long story short, I'm not against AOE caps being removed. But I also fail to see what it will accomplish. Old days are not coming back, no more instamelting a raid with 4 people before they have a chance to barrier, recover and melt you back. What you should be arguing for, in my opinion, is the ulti gain. That's the big one for small groups, that gave you a competitive edge against larger raids and handicapped larger raids instead of giving them a big damage bonus.

Agree here, dynamic Ult is probably a bigger game-changer than AoE caps. Especially for small groups.

Huckdabuck · October 2015

Ishammael wrote: »

Satiar wrote: »

Long story short, I'm not against AOE caps being removed. But I also fail to see what it will accomplish. Old days are not coming back, no more instamelting a raid with 4 people before they have a chance to barrier, recover and melt you back. What you should be arguing for, in my opinion, is the ulti gain. That's the big one for small groups, that gave you a competitive edge against larger raids and handicapped larger raids instead of giving them a big damage bonus.

Agree here, dynamic Ult is probably a bigger game-changer than AoE caps. Especially for small groups.

And this is what everyone should be screaming about! Just doesn't appear that people thought this through as much as they tend to think.

Takllin · October 2015

Zheg wrote: »

FENGRUSH wrote: »

Zheg wrote: »

Im going to play devils advocate for a minute. As I and others have already said, the aoe cap REALLY does not factor into most fights as some people in here seem to think it does, and is the last thing groups are thinking of when there's a call to be on crown. Anyway, devils advocate commence.

ESO pvp is intended for and designed for large scale fighting, group/s v group/s. That doesn't mean you can't small man or solo, but there's no denying the intention is for large scale battles. With that said, these 'epic' large battles are less fun when the fight is over in a second, yes? Does anyone disagree? So if the goal is to have large fights that actually last and not a one-and-done bomb, being able to obliterate an entire raid in a second runs counter to the goal. By the very nature of game mechanics, large numbers o players in these fights are drawn towards eachother even if not in the same group, it's just how people fight in large scale pvp. The aoe cap can serve as a means to mitigate the one-and-done bomb that would inevitably happen when 2 or 3 sides collide with 20+ ults a piece. This may negatively impact the other areas of pvp, but obviously an argument can be made that it protects large scale group v group fights by lessoning the chance that entire swaths of players melt in less than a second, and what should be a good fight ends with disappointment.. That's not to say I'm convinced of this argument, but I should think it certainly doesn't mean the cap removal should be a one-sided argument and so easily written off as an obvious necessity.

The removal was sold as a means to improve pvp, but fengrush has already admitted it won't help a small man beat a coordinated raid, which means it just helps small mans fight larger numbers of bad and new pvpers. Is roflstomping them good for pvp? Debatable. Furthermore, the ONE devils advocate argument I made should show that the cap can be healthy for the majority of pvp (large scale fights), which is also the intended style of pvp. So removing it in the hopes of improving small scale pvp's ability to solely kill bad players is not such a convincing argument as a 'betterment for all pvp' if at the same time it promote one-shot bombs in place of actual engagements.

Do I think the cap is stupid? Absolutely. Do I think people are justified in clamoring for changes when they clearly aren't thinking critically about the effects? Hell no. This problem seems to be endemic when it comes the the playerbase demanding changes they assume are good ideas. Demand debate and an evaluation of pros and cons, because there are other people that have perspective you may lack.

Would I like for the Zerg issue to be addressed? Yes. Would I like for mechanics to be corrected so we don't have this bizarre aoe cap? Yes. But stop saying this is one simple fix that will overall improve pvp when it's clearly not that cut and dry.

It does allow 4 people to fight 24 - just not head to head. In reality, people are throwing around the number 4 a lot. If I had an 8 man group of what my group does, we would do pretty well against most full raids on sweeps, flanks, and ambushes.

Keep in mind the 24 people have to attack the keep, the 8 have the advantage of defending and ambushing. With AOE caps, you might as well just exit out the back with 8 and go find a different fight.

Do you disagree that removing the cap has the potential to negatively impact large group v large group pvp by reducing fight times, promoting stealth bombs, and overall made these engagements about who ult dumps first? People have been asking for a single reason why the cap shouldn't be removed, and I provided you with one.

If you do disagree, you're going to need to explain how it won't make large engagements even shorter than they currently are. If you agree, then the argument comes down to potentially improving small v large pvp at the expense of large v large pvp, which is clearly not benefitting all of pvp like you said was the goal. Just trying to point out the contradiction.

Reduced fight times = improved performance.

Stealth bombs are already a thing, don't see how this is a detriment to PvP.

Group v Group fights are already an ult dump fest when it comes down to it. So this doesn't change anything.

Stikato · October 2015

As a solo/small group player, fighting ball groups, most of the time AOE caps do not provide any additional mitigation to me whatsoever.
- Sometimes, I'm sure I happen to standing near (enough) others. Most of the time I am off to the side with a couple other people.

On the flip side, most of the time the ball groups have an extra 50% mitigation from my AOE's.
- Sometimes, I catch one or two of them not stacked as tight on crown.

Now is AOE cap the only reason to stack on crown? Of course it isn't. But the other reasons, good or not, are somehwhat fair in both cases:

- Being close to allies to receive buffs
- Concentrating a lot of damage into a small area

These may not effect ball groups and small groups equally, but they are affecting them somewhat fairly. AOE caps do not.

I am not a 1vXer, I am not a streamer, I am just a regular Joe. I'm never going to wipe a 24-man. But I don't understand my why my AOE skills suddenly drop in damage in those cases. And people here are trying to convince me that it's for MY protection, and for the benefit of the game. And then disingenuously never even acknowledging that they are the beneficiaries, at least most of the time.

Rylana · October 2015

Still say an arena system solves all tbh.

Rather than try to play small vs large balance game, just throw in a queue for any arbitrary numbers and get some instant even numbers mortal kombat, scoring optional.

Then youd see the real drama unfold.

FENGRUSH · October 2015

Huckdabuck wrote: »

So time for some more honest discussion concerning a "What if" analysis....

What if - Zenimax actually decides in their "infinite wisdom" to remove the AoE caps (while doing it bug free) from the game due to the forum uproar which has been present since they first put them in place.

Scenario 1 - @FENGRUSH and his brave group of 4 dive bombs (INSERT ORGANIZED 24 MAN RAID NAME HERE) and kills a few folks and wipes or runs away to safety but isn't as effective as he thinks he should be. What exactly is the next item on the table to begin rallying against/for (dynamic ulti generation!!!!) in order to help the small man actually have a one up against the overwhelming numbers? Do the brave 4 concede defeat? Do they uninstall due to not being able to play how they want? Do they run around in IC due to the group constraints that are present there (ie line of sight)? Do you start looking for relatively similar sized groups to hit instead?

Scenario 2 - @FENGRUSH and his brave group of 4 dive bombs (INSERT ORGANIZED 24 MAN RAID NAME HERE) and kills everyone in glorious battle. Do the brave 4 write songs of their conquest? Do the forums light up with QQ from the organized guilds? Do the organized guilds adapt/overcome and move to a new meta and continue the current vicious cycle which will lead to the next round of forum QQ with ongoing issues?

Scenario 3 - (INSERT ORGANIZED 24 MAN RAID NAME HERE) dive bombs another (INSERT ORGANIZED 24 MAN RAID NAME HERE) raid and wipes them or gets wiped. What exactly was accomplished here that hasn't already been done many times before? The larger group battles is where ZOS is apparently balancing the PvP side of the game as far as I can tell. IE...see Zheg's post above.

Scenario 4 - (INSERT ORGANIZED 24 MAN RAID NAME HERE) dive bombs 2+ (INSERT ORGANIZED 24 MAN RAID NAME HERE) raid and wipes them. What exactly was accomplished here that hasn't already been done many times before? In the current meta, this is pretty much where raising the AoE cap would be disastrous for the 2+ groups as it's getting somewhat hairy at times to finish them off with the instant rez's we've all been seeing lately. It's this one point alone where you're getting the organized raid guilds telling you that you're making them stronger.

And before replying with a snide/flippant comment......this is not a jab rather it's a couple of honest questions to the most probable "what ifs".

I tend to agree with Steve on this....y'all should be shouting from the ceilings for them to revert the ultimate generation change as that was truly what evened the odds.

EDIT - And just so it's clear....I'm neither for nor against the AoE caps....I just play the game that they put out and enjoy my time here while doing so.

Ult gen is definitely good but when you drop negates on a ball group and see people never move an inch and continue spamming heals inside you have to wonder what the hell you dropped it for to begin with.

While the hypothetical situations are appreciated - it still comes back to why these groups need this mitigation???

Your concern with point 4 revolves around the fact that every group will fight as a ball. If they want to put all their eggs in one basket, they should be assuming a higher level of risk. In todays gameplay, not balling up with numbers is the riskiest way to play. Packing together should not give you damage mitigation. Its not only stupid, but it creates a barrier for players to PvP without doing the same exact thing.

I dont want to play in a ball group. I dont mind having to group in large groups, but if youre going beyond 12+ you should be in a ball or youre doing it wrong. This is because of how ZOS has designed the game. As long as AOE caps are in place, it wont change.

Satiar wrote: »

@Satiar Do you not remember countless battles of Hijinx 20+ groups dying to my 4 man? These things happened. We lost a lot of fights too. But we had a chance to win them just as well.

I ruined a full raid with 5 people day before yesterday, still happens. Only, it doesn't happen to good groups anymore because the game itself has changed. I remember precisely one of what you're talking about, and it had very little to do with caps and very much to do with how the game was back than. Back than you could put a DKS down and if people didn't get out if it FAST they'd just die. That kind of burst isn't in the game anymore. Groups also have better rotations and a fuller understanding of game mechanics now.

Long story short, I'm not against AOE caps being removed. But I also fail to see what it will accomplish. Old days are not coming back, no more instamelting a raid with 4 people before they have a chance to barrier, recover and melt you back. What you should be arguing for, in my opinion, is the ulti gain. That's the big one for small groups, that gave you a competitive edge against larger raids and handicapped larger raids instead of giving them a big damage bonus.

Anyways, good luck with the whole thingy, let's see if caps can go. And for the love of god get someone who raids on your next panel. No offense to any of y'all but there's a been a demonstrated lack of understanding regarding raid mechanics ("stack on crown for less damage!" being chief among them) and why the work like they do. That, or you're just not interested enough to get into it which is it's own sin worth correcting

That burst is in the game, just not when you hit 24 people. A majority of the damage is mitigated. Isnt that pretty messed up to even thinkg about?

As far as the panel goes - this wasnt planned far in advance. It was put together quickly, and it wasnt a forum panel to talk about mass pvp, but various issues, and will be about various issues going forward as well. Its just that forum threads popped out given one part of it. The reality is, there is a lot more support, and thats how it ended up on the forums, than those who come and say but but but youll make us stronger!!!

Will the organized groups be stronger against certain groups, like massive 40-60 zergs? Yes. And they deserve to be. Will 8-12 man groups be able to compete with 24 man guilds as well much better? Yes they will. Will server performance improve when fights dont drag on longer than they should because of the amount of damage being mitigated while large armies clash because they are balling up because they will mitigate damage when theyre together? Yes. These are good things the way I see it.

Dynamic ult gens, barriers, purge - next steps as far as Im concerned. The reality is, this fix is easiest to put in. And the real goal is actually opening a line of communication with ZOS on this stuff - not just AOE caps, PVP concerns. Thats the primary purpose this podcast was put together. If theres no communication or consideration from Zenimax, it will be for naught. Panelists Id like to see on future podcasts: large raid leads, PVE end game players, and ZOS devs.

Muizer · October 2015

Ultimates are called that for a reason. You're not supposed to string them together and, even in the old days, only a very narrow range of builds was able to use that effectively against superior numbers. It would be a bad thing if the "solution" to zerging was a measure that would heavily favour builds like, most notably, the bat swarming DK's of old. Apart from zergs, the range of viable builds is probably bigger than it has ever been, which is a sure sign of improved balancing. Whatever is suggested to stop the zerg shouldn't mess that up.

Takllin · October 2015

Huckdabuck wrote: »

Ishammael wrote: »

Satiar wrote: »

Long story short, I'm not against AOE caps being removed. But I also fail to see what it will accomplish. Old days are not coming back, no more instamelting a raid with 4 people before they have a chance to barrier, recover and melt you back. What you should be arguing for, in my opinion, is the ulti gain. That's the big one for small groups, that gave you a competitive edge against larger raids and handicapped larger raids instead of giving them a big damage bonus.

Agree here, dynamic Ult is probably a bigger game-changer than AoE caps. Especially for small groups.

And this is what everyone should be screaming about! Just doesn't appear that people thought this through as much as they tend to think.

I think that's a separate yet equally important discussion to have.

Though if your proposing which one of the two would people rather have if that's the proposal that ZOS throws at us...I'm not sure. That has far more reaching affects in PvE than removing the AoE diminishing returns cap.

dodgehopper_ESO · October 2015

Just a thought here, but shouldn't player single target attacks have greater primacy to aoe's? Single targets are more precise and require more effort. Most pvp type games (not just MMO's) that I've played we would call our targets individually and blast those people one by one. Maybe the big answer is that aoe shouldn't be as strong as it is. This is just something I'm musing as I read this debate. Look at caltrops. Its wonderful as a snare, but its not that good for damage, and the cost to fire it is high. I almost think that should be what the aoe's are more about, particularly in pvp. I'd rather that than the huge nerf to Tanks they just did. Personally, I like the notion of playing in skirmish groups, so I can respect what @fengrush and his crew do. The issue though is that I'm not sure people are attacking AoE from the right perspective. I think they'd be better as a debuff than a damage in pvp anyway, at least to make the battles more interesting. The well organized groups will still call targets, and Feng's skirmishes should still be able to cut off flanks and hit and run. Seems like win-win for everyone.

Zheg · October 2015

The argument that fights should be over in a second to preserve server performance is an awful one. If you make pvp last a second, what's the point? Seriously? How bored would you be in a week? At that point I could go drop a banner on zombies and grind champ points. Server performance is always on our minds given the lag we've had to put up with, but that doesn't mean pvp should be made pointless because ZOS struggles to deliver on what was promised as far a capabilities.

To hopefully change some of the tone that I myself am guilty of, this shouldn't be a bash fengrush thing, I just see little reality in terms of what most people are under the impression the cap currently does, what removing it will do, and what the ripple effects could be.

The tragedy should not be lost on people that this argument has focused on one of the least relevant of the improvements suggested in the video. Changing how healing works could be incredibly exciting and promote skill over numbers on all fronts, but that's been mentioned maybe 3 times in these 9 pages.

FENGRUSH · October 2015

Arena is not a solution to this - I LOVE siege combat. The siege combat is overly simplistic in its capture mechanics and the battles that take place.

I picked this game up for siege combat - I picked up the last MMO I played for castle sieges too. The combat system is great here, I just want the environment its in to be better.

A lot of people have a microcaption of my goals, such as 1 single thing. But I frequently discuss ideas on the stream, forums, with friends on TS when the issues come up. Frankly theres so little change that occurs over time its tough to be hopeful, but people are finding things inbetween.

I came back to ESO and held out for IC patch. Ive thoroughly enjoyed IC sewers PvP. But I fear it will all be gone by the time Orsinium launches - and then were stuck in Cyro again with the zerg stuff again.

Wreuntzylla · October 2015

It's funny to hear people say that unless something is done, the majority of players will leave. The majority is zerging....

While there are some zergs filled with good players, the majority are filled with players that get farmed, day in and day out, outside of a zerg. You can't have a significant number of players with 10:1 kill ratios without other players having 1:10 kill ratios.

Many people here are essentially arguing that they deserve to farm mediocre players because they are more "skilled." Setting aside the definition of "skilled" for this debate, this may be true, from a purely libertarian point of view. However, MMO history has shown that very few people will stick around to be AP cows.

Once the mediocre player is gone, the game begins to collapse. This is for two reasons. First, most "competitive small group" players are in it for pug stomping and not competitive play. Second, even among the groups seeking competition, 2-3 groups typically rise to the top and farm all the remaining competitive groups. The farmed groups also leave the game to avoid having to face the fact that they weren't nearly as good as they thought they were.

This thread reminds me of the movement to remove forward camps. To cut down on zerging and improve open field skirmishing. What a disaster. More and bigger zergs emerged. Can't move safely around the battlefield? Zerg! Or use Sejanus, Nickel, etc., as FCs...

So, what logical train of thought gets you to the point where you think that bombing 10x your numbers will improve the game? Destroy the zergs and what will the zergers do? Stay around and get repeatedly bombed, day in and day out, by 1/10th their numbers? Is their anything more humiliating we could add to the game? They can't FC, they can't zerg, is anything left for them to enjoy PvP? And once they are gone, then what?

I would love to hear any argument as to how removal of AoE caps will lead to a fun environment conducive to a large, sustainable PvP player base. When I think of AoE cap removal, I think of DAOC PBAE bombing, banshee cone AE or early Animist shroom stacking. Each of which contributed to the ultimate demise of that game...

Huckdabuck · October 2015

Takllin wrote: »

Huckdabuck wrote: »

Ishammael wrote: »

Satiar wrote: »

Long story short, I'm not against AOE caps being removed. But I also fail to see what it will accomplish. Old days are not coming back, no more instamelting a raid with 4 people before they have a chance to barrier, recover and melt you back. What you should be arguing for, in my opinion, is the ulti gain. That's the big one for small groups, that gave you a competitive edge against larger raids and handicapped larger raids instead of giving them a big damage bonus.

Agree here, dynamic Ult is probably a bigger game-changer than AoE caps. Especially for small groups.

And this is what everyone should be screaming about! Just doesn't appear that people thought this through as much as they tend to think.

I think that's a separate yet equally important discussion to have.

Though if your proposing which one of the two would people rather have if that's the proposal that ZOS throws at us...I'm not sure. That has far more reaching affects in PvE than removing the AoE diminishing returns cap.

I can tell you with 100% certainty.....the past few days while you and I were running around 2-4 manning in the IC sewers and running into larger groups (and I realize this is very situational) but I would rather have back the dynamic ultimate gain instead of a removal of AoE caps. That's just me and to each their own I guess although I'm horribly ignorant of the PvE aspect that you're referring to (unless you mean someone can finish their dungeon a minute or 5 faster) so I can't speak to any of that. I'd pretty much be willing to wager that neither will be offered up or even discussed internally by ZOS though.