Recremen wrote: »

If you see a 24-person stealth bomb in Bruma or Chorral or wherever just chilling out for days and waiting for nubs, feel free to call me a liar, but that is not what a typical PvPer is doing with their life.

As I don't/can't speak for all or even most PvE'ers (and since I also do do some RP and some PvP I can't even claim to be a "pure" PvE'er if there even is such a thing), you cannot speak for all or most PvPers.

Even with the reduction in damage, the idea that a relatively inexperienced PvP'er could get any idea of how many were involved in the gankfest is ... well it shows a lack of understanding of the PvE perspective. From the PvE point of view, I'm turning in a quest, then things are exploding around me, then I'm dead. I don't (generally) stick around to count how many were involved or how many take turns teabagging or whatever. At least not after the first few times. Yuck.

That you seem to assume that a group of PvE'ers would have the skills or desire to hunt fellow PvE'ers - um that by definition would make it a group of PvP'ers.

I will instantly concede that there are unkind and disrespectful and unreasonable players of every orientation - PvP, PvE, RP, whatever. No one group, approach, alliance or platform has a corner on civility or incivility.

And as for mocking and namecalling - I thought your calling @Francis_Toliver "sweetie" was insulting and condescending.

To the original point of this thread, that there should be a campaign reserved for the more pure approach of PvP, I would have expected that to play out in the gated campaign, as inherent to that setup is the need to balance many levels of PvP and to manage it effectively would call for a LOT of players functioning at a very high level in PvP.

That being said, I do have it set as ... can't recall if it's home or guest for one of my factions - see my earlier comments about altaholics needing multiple campaigns.

Recremen wrote: »

I'd hardly begrudge a single person who's alt hopping every half hour, you probably wouldn't even make it through the queue for Trueflame before you had to switch. ;-)

I must (attempt to) correct your apparent misapprehension about how I play. I have 16 characters on NA PC. Three more on EU PC (for when the "gotta play ESO" kicks in during NA PC maintenance). I play (when I can) for hours at a time. Yesterday morning (for example) I ran a sort of a resource run (and treasure map run, and survey run too) with two friends in Craglorn. I was running a vet 1 altmer sorc, one friend was running a vet 2 altmer sorc and the other was running a vet 15 altmer sorc. Lets just say it was a DPS rich environment. We were also RPing among ourselves and yakking (we tend to skype or teamspeak when playing) and it was a lot of fun. For about 4-5 hours. Intermittently we had other players temporarily group with us (formally as in "add to group" for some, informally for others).

It's not just "log on to characters for a few min in sequence" for me. It's play who I would like to ... view the ES world as/from.

One of my favorite characters to play in the IC sewers is a dunmer magicka DK who is now lvl 12 (not vet). She looks like a cute little pixie which may be why many of the folks down there don't seem to mind her tagging along with them, and she doesn't go for treasure (I don't really see the point, since she's so inherently squishy at that level). She's a sort of refugee from house Dres who realized she was in love with a "house slave" when she casually informed him that she'd had the rest of his family (field slaves) killed because they were too worn/inefficient. Long story short, she freed all the slaves, and now between regret, self-hate and the suppressed desire for redemption she works out all her issues by violence and doesn't mind dying a lot as she feels she deserves it. Being a soul-shriven has been a very mixed blessing/curse for her.

Not that you or anyone cares or even read that whole paragraph. My point was meant to be that I switch by days/sessions, and get ridiculously into the game from each of my character's perspectives. However since they all have 'being a soul shriven' and worrying about Nirn as a whole as a concern (inherent to the game), none of them are able to take the alliance war seriously.

Maybe that's why I don't get into the PvP the same way that people dedicated to only one alliance/viewpoint do. dunno.
.

newtinmpls wrote: »

Recremen wrote: »

If you see a 24-person stealth bomb in Bruma or Chorral or wherever just chilling out for days and waiting for nubs, feel free to call me a liar, but that is not what a typical PvPer is doing with their life.

As I don't/can't speak for all or even most PvE'ers (and since I also do do some RP and some PvP I can't even claim to be a "pure" PvE'er if there even is such a thing), you cannot speak for all or most PvPers.

Even with the reduction in damage, the idea that a relatively inexperienced PvP'er could get any idea of how many were involved in the gankfest is ... well it shows a lack of understanding of the PvE perspective. From the PvE point of view, I'm turning in a quest, then things are exploding around me, then I'm dead. I don't (generally) stick around to count how many were involved or how many take turns teabagging or whatever. At least not after the first few times. Yuck.

That you seem to assume that a group of PvE'ers would have the skills or desire to hunt fellow PvE'ers - um that by definition would make it a group of PvP'ers.

I will instantly concede that there are unkind and disrespectful and unreasonable players of every orientation - PvP, PvE, RP, whatever. No one group, approach, alliance or platform has a corner on civility or incivility.

And as for mocking and namecalling - I thought your calling @Francis_Toliver "sweetie" was insulting and condescending.

To the original point of this thread, that there should be a campaign reserved for the more pure approach of PvP, I would have expected that to play out in the gated campaign, as inherent to that setup is the need to balance many levels of PvP and to manage it effectively would call for a LOT of players functioning at a very high level in PvP.

That being said, I do have it set as ... can't recall if it's home or guest for one of my factions - see my earlier comments about altaholics needing multiple campaigns.

Recremen wrote: »

I'd hardly begrudge a single person who's alt hopping every half hour, you probably wouldn't even make it through the queue for Trueflame before you had to switch. ;-)

I must (attempt to) correct your apparent misapprehension about how I play. I have 16 characters on NA PC. Three more on EU PC (for when the "gotta play ESO" kicks in during NA PC maintenance). I play (when I can) for hours at a time. Yesterday morning (for example) I ran a sort of a resource run (and treasure map run, and survey run too) with two friends in Craglorn. I was running a vet 1 altmer sorc, one friend was running a vet 2 altmer sorc and the other was running a vet 15 altmer sorc. Lets just say it was a DPS rich environment. We were also RPing among ourselves and yakking (we tend to skype or teamspeak when playing) and it was a lot of fun. For about 4-5 hours. Intermittently we had other players temporarily group with us (formally as in "add to group" for some, informally for others).

It's not just "log on to characters for a few min in sequence" for me. It's play who I would like to ... view the ES world as/from.

One of my favorite characters to play in the IC sewers is a dunmer magicka DK who is now lvl 12 (not vet). She looks like a cute little pixie which may be why many of the folks down there don't seem to mind her tagging along with them, and she doesn't go for treasure (I don't really see the point, since she's so inherently squishy at that level). She's a sort of refugee from house Dres who realized she was in love with a "house slave" when she casually informed him that she'd had the rest of his family (field slaves) because they were too worn/inefficient. Long story short, she freed all the slaves, and now between regret, self-hate and the suppressed desire for redemption she works out all her issues by violence and doesn't mind dying a lot as she feels she deserves it. Being a soul-shriven has been a very mixed blessing/curse for her.

Not that you or anyone cares or even read that whole paragraph. My point was meant to be that I switch by days/sessions, and get ridiculously into the game from each of my character's perspectives. However since they all have 'being a soul shriven' and worrying about Nirn as a whole as a concern (inherent to the game), none of them are able to take the alliance war seriously.

Maybe that's why I don't get into the PvP the same way that people dedicated to only one alliance/viewpoint do. dunno.
.

I'm not speaking for all or most PvPers, I'm basing all of this on a year of observation. Even pug PvP groups do not tend to go questing, the most they do that's PvE-oriented is run out to do dolmens. PvPers are mainly interested in fighting at or between keeps or chasing scrolls. There are extremely few who go off to do anything else, and they are necessarily loners or a small handful. Also, gankers tend to gank PvPers, not wait around in towns hoping someone comes to turn in quests.

My observation about PvEers doing most of the town ganking is also well-founded. Having done all the quests in the towns, my only experience with gankers were from people who also went and turned in quests in the town. Sometimes I've gone off riding (in underpopulated campaigns, again) to look for more non-town quests in case I've missed something, or to try to get Monster Trophies, and come across PvEers in towns. I don't get off my horse or go into stealth, but I ride a tight circle around them to let them know I don't mean any harm. Guess what happens when I do that? That's right, they attack. I ride away, still on my horse, clearly not fighting, and they give chase. You might have never taken pot shots at other players, but I find that people doing PvE in Cyro are far more trigger-happy than they let on.

And calling people "sweetie" isn't meant to be condescending that's just something I say, sorry if it came off that way. Also look for"honey" and "sugar", those are good too.

Unfortunately the Axe of Belharza campaign is not well-designed from a PvP perspective. It's only a 7-day duration, so the stakes are extremely low, and it's guaranteed to draw PvE players as soon as one faction controls part of the map, since then the other factions can't bother them for a while. This leads to poplock and queue time, with many of those in the campaign not contributing to the fight. The only way locked campaigns would "work" would be if they were all locked, but that would have been a terrible move considering the level increase that came with Imperial City, and all those other reasons that have been argued to death. Even then, though, you'd just have half your faction running into Imperial City every time they got access, leaving the remaining force to try to hold the keeps for them. That's an untenable position if the other factions have any significant presence.

And okay, yes, I misunderstood your play style, but you're still not really part of the "problem" unless you're running/running with a big guild who has scheduled time to go into Imperial City. While it's possible for pug types to have a significant enough presence in Imperial City to affect the overall campaign, it's much less likely than an actual PvE guild.

(and that's a pretty nice character background, very inventive!)

Francis_Toliver wrote: »

Francis_Toliver wrote: »

If you want to effect a pvp exclusive campaign you would be better served trying to convince ZOS to do it (good luck with that!) then to appeal to people that don't like you ("you" being pvpers) and don't care about your concerns.

Like the fellow that wanted all the pve people to leave "his" dungeon so he could continue to grind (and who got laughed at), you fail to understand with what little regard you pvpers are held by most pveers. Not all of them (I quite like most pvpers I've met, but then I pvp as well as pve). The egocentric request to leave a dungeon is funny. The remarkably egocentric request to leave an entire campaign? That is fricking hilarious!

Recremen wrote: »

You keep saying that "this won't stop, that won't change", but I think you entirely underestimate how understanding and reasonable most people are. You're also saying that most PvE types dislike PvPers, but that also has not been observed. Every PvE guild I've been with in this game has been entirely accepting of PvPers, and in fact some of them like to do both, a little bit. You might be conflating your own opinion with that of an entire group.

More to the point, though, I've observed a lot of Overland Cyro fighting in both the 30-day campaigns and nobody trying to group up for sewer grinds during primetime, I've observed that my own PvE guilds have now been grouping up in Haderus and Chillrend instead of Trueflame, and so I conclude that people are in fact leaving the 30-day campaigns to the PvP dogs. Go figure, a mutually beneficial arrangement proves to be swiftly adopted by a generally rational populace.

And no, I'm still not seeing the point of mocking or namecalling, and I certainly don't feel inclined to do it myself. What was that about not liking bullying?

Hmm, that's odd since Chillrend and Haderus are the exclusive stomping grounds of M4D (a very good PVP guild) and their AD equivalents. So the idea that PVP'ers are "grouping" in 30 day campaigns is mistaken. This has been the case for a long time and is unlikely to change anytime soon. PVE'ers that want to avoid PVP'ers going to those campaigns will run into plenty.

As to "won't stop" and "won't change"; It isn't peoples reasonableness that is in question. It is their willingness to take a loss (losing the option for 1 entire campaign) for no real gain, that is what is in question.

Like the fellow that asked PVE'ers to leave his dungeon so he could continue to farm, you are offering no reason to do so. A PVE'er gains nothing by limited his campaigns. PVP'ers exist in all campaigns. Most PVE'ers don't differentiate between the PVP'er that plays siege and the gankers that enjoy attacking PVE'ers. It doesn't help that a Siege player that happens on another player can't pause to see if they are going to be attacked (something that PVE'ers WILL do in Cyrodiil dungeons). So most PVE'ers that I have run with don't feel particularly fond of PVP'ers as a group. Most PVP'ers do not speak well of PVE'ers (and don't think that PVE'ers are not aware of that), so why in the world would any PVE'er take a loss for someone they don't like (gankers) for no reason other then that the folks they don't get along with want them to? Especially when they mostly don't give the whole process a lot of thought?

Which campaign can I get into, that matches up with my friends. Where does my guild go? That is what most of the folks I have played with think about when doing PVE in PVP zones. That and where are the areas that I can do the above in that have the most bars in my alliance and the least in enemy factions.

Lastly, I did not "name call" <g>, I mocked. One mocks to (gently or harshly) to let another person know that they are being truly silly or unreasonable or simply horribly self absorbed.

The fellow in the dungeon was so self centered that he truly believed asking the PVE'ers to leave (and he wasn't rude, he simply asked) so he could continue to farm, was reasonable. That dungeon existed (an exact replica) in other campaigns and we certainly could have avoided that dungeon so that a true pvp'er could do his business. We didn't because we had as much right to be there as he did (more actually because the DEVs have stated that they do not want people grinding, and these PVE areas were created to....PVE!). The attitude was so outrageous that we had to laugh. At him. At his attitude.

You may not realize it, but you are doing the exact same thing. You are asking a entire group of people that are entitled to go to an area in the game, designed for them, to leave, simply for your convenience. You will not die if they are there. You will not be unable to play the game. You will simply be inconvenienced. It is the epitome of self absorption to think that that is a reasonable attitude. The whole idea is so....funny that I can't help but laugh. It is also so outrageous that I find myself mocking it. Please don't be offended (or at least any more offended then the offense your attitude gives to many PVE'ers), it isn't you that I'm mocking, it is your attitude. Your belief that whole groups of people should voluntarily take a loss for your convenience, for no other reason then because you want a "real pvp campaign".

So funny...

Are you EU or something? I've literally never heard of M4D.

And if you really don't see the benefit of homing an underpopulated campaign versus homing a consistently-poplocked campaign full of people looking to PvP, then I really can't help you. There are categorically fewer PvPers in underpopulated campaigns than in poplocked ones, I don't understand how you're missing the benefit of that. It's a matter of scale. Like standing in the shade on a hot day, it's still hot out but it's not as bad as standing in full view of the sun.

And as for "taking a loss", I hardly even know where to begin. It is somehow a loss to avoid giant queues and go to less-populated campaigns to do your PvE activites? Nonsense.

Recremen wrote: »

Are you EU or something? I've literally never heard of M4D.
.

So if you have not heard of/experienced something it isn't valid. I think more of what you say is understandable to me now.

newtinmpls wrote: »

Recremen wrote: »

Also, PvEers don't get singled out for poor treatment, that's just jerk PvPers being jerks. Unless someone implemented an icon next to player names that indicates whether or not they're a PvP player, nobody can tell the difference and any fears of persecution are completely unfounded.

I didn't find this comment believable. Then I noted that a subsequent poster confirmed my suspicions.

Alucardo wrote: »

I got moaned at the other night for killing a group of 4 PvErs in Bruma. She whispered me and said something like, "stop killing us ur in a pve area". I get told to stop killing people in CYRODIIL and you guys don't like us? Okay.

Bruma is one of the quest hub areas in Cyrodiil. It is a place that folks who like questing and exploring can reasonably be expected to be found. It is not a keep, or a resource or a fort, so despite being in a "PvP" zone, it is not unreasonable to think of it as an area more oriented to PvE than PvP.

Note I'm not saying that Bruma "Is" PvE only - all of Cyrodiil is clearly PvP enabled. What I am saying is that there are areas within Cyrodiil that are more oriented one way or the other. Theoretically the PvPers could concentrate on PvP focused areas and PvE'ers could concentrate on more PvE focused areas. It doesn't appear to be playing out that way.

And when a group of folks are doing nothing but attempting quests - which are individually rewarded. Unlike chests, or resources - there are inherently "always enough to go around". So the PvP gankers are ganking merely because they choose easy targets. Not because they have to, or because the PvE questers are competitive in any way.

there are around 15 other zones one can PvE in. when one enters Cyrodiil, they are entering PVP land, and should expect to be treated as such. This is not elitism nor am I "picking easy targets" I am simply playing the zone how its meant to be played. and not everyone that PvEs in cyrodiil is an "easy target" some may be outstanding PvPers that are just getting some quests done for XP or an achievement. Either way they better expect PvP in the one PvP zone in the entire game. and no I do not camp quest hubs and dungeons just to kill PvErs. Such an action is a waste of my time and it spoils the fun of the delvers and questers; (in fact I tend to not attack people in quest hubs altogether) but if I see you away from the quest hub and outside of a dungeon, you will be considered a PvPer and treated as such. We will do glorious battle in the snow laden fields and the victor will be decided by the glorious flow of blood!!!!

newtinmpls wrote: »

Recremen wrote: »

I'm not speaking for all or most PvPers, I'm basing all of this on a year of observation.

You are basing your comments on your experience. I am basing my comments on my experience. Neither of us has the experience of the other - which means that both of our experiences are valid. Are you not getting this idea?

Recremen wrote: »

Also, gankers tend to gank PvPers, not wait around in towns hoping someone comes to turn in quests.

Sigh.

Ganking is by its very nature a player attacking a player. Inherently PvP.

Turning in a quest is inherently PvE.

Yes, they can cross over. That doesn't mean they always do.

Recremen wrote: »

Sometimes I've gone off riding (in underpopulated campaigns, again) to look for more non-town quests in case I've missed something, or to try to get Monster Trophies, and come across PvEers in towns. I don't get off my horse or go into stealth, but I ride a tight circle around them to let them know I don't mean any harm. Guess what happens when I do that? That's right, they attack. I ride away, still on my horse, clearly not fighting, and they give chase. You might have never taken pot shots at other players, but I find that people doing PvE in Cyro are far more trigger-happy than they let on.

Have you no experience or perception of human nature?

I'm minding my own business in town, turning in a quest and someone from another faction rides up and circles around me. And you think I'm NOT going to take that as mockery/threat? Do you /wave or /bow or do something overtly friendly? I mention these because I have seen them used (often) in Cyrodiil delves to mean "just passing through" or "truce, okay". No, you just ride around on your (possibly maxed out speed) horse and then zoom away?

Sigh. From an unskilled PvE'ers PoV you might as well be saying "prepare to die soon, sucker".

Again, not saying that is what you mean, just saying how it looks from the "other side".

Just because someone was doing a quest when you met them does not mean that they are (or primarily are) a PvE'er - and you should be the one pointing that out to me.

newtinmpls wrote: »

Recremen wrote: »

Are you EU or something? I've literally never heard of M4D.
.

So if you have not heard of/experienced something it isn't valid. I think more of what you say is understandable to me now.

Never said anything about other people's experiences being invalid, let's not get melodramatic. But there is definitely a difference in experience scope. Your experiences are plenty valid, but if you're primarily a PvEer then you don't really have the depth of exposure to examine the PvP situation in the game on the same level as someone with over a year of PvP experience. Just look at the population bars in the different campaigns yourself, the data is all right there. Trueflame and Azura's trend toward poplock during primetime, the others do not.

Dunno why you're sighing about gankers focusing on PvP targets, at least in overland Cyro, that's just fact. They situate between keeps and along the popular travel lines, then mess people up as they're on their way to PvP objectives. I had very few incidents with gankers in towns, but between keeps it's an hourly occurrence at least. That's not an isolated experience, either, that's a common thing. You don't hear in zone chat about gankers in Chorrol every few minutes, you hear about gankers between Alessia and Roe or between BRK and Sej, those sorts of places.

Of course I've tried other "friendly" methods of interaction, it all ends the same. You can wave, you can salute, you can bow, you can do whatever, but by and large other players in a PvP zone will attack you, even if they themselves are there just to quest. At least when I'm on my horse I can go back to what I was doing instead of having to kill them, which isn't what I wanted in the first place. Also, riding around in circles is about the least threatening thing you can do, you can't even attack when you're on a horse. "Human nature" my patoot, that's quite a reach for interpretation of a consummately nonthreatening move.

In any case, this is quite unrelated to the point of the thread, which was secure the 30-day campaigns for mostly PvP purposes. For everyone's bellyaching, mocking, and petulance, those campaigns have indeed seen primarily PvP action during primetime. So mission accomplished, I guess.

newtinmpls wrote: »

Cody wrote: »

no I do not camp quest hubs and dungeons just to kill PvErs. Such an action is a waste of my time and it spoils the fun of the delvers and questers; (in fact I tend to not attack people in quest hubs altogether) but if I see you away from the quest hub and outside of a dungeon, you will be considered a PvPer and treated as such. We will do glorious battle in the snow laden fields and the victor will be decided by the glorious flow of blood!!!!

I have to say that your enthusiasm and rhetoric are terrific! I've game-mailed folks with whom I've battled, and yes it does make the glorious battle more fun.

If I had the option to /bleedoutontothesnow after getting killed, there are certainly times when I would use it <g>

As for lagging - I've noticed that the harder my graphics card has to work (and it's a high-end little bugger), the more lag. Places like Fungal Grotto, Rawl'kla on a "spam healing/visual effects" night can be sometimes just as laggy as a zerg or battle for a keep.

I wish that there was some kind of mechanism to 'tone down' the graphics ... expressed in high population areas.

And I'm curious. What do you mean you jump and buff to initiate combat? Is that like ... the opposite of doing the /bow or /wave or /dance to indicate truce?

I still wish there was a /throwgauntlet

I'd like it enabled 1v1 in non-PvP areas as well.

Idk how it is now, but a few months back, a few jumps and a buff spell or two signaled the start of a dual

newtinmpls wrote: »

Cody wrote: »

Idk how it is now, but a few months back, a few jumps and a buff spell or two signaled the start of a dual

A buff spell??

what's a good example... man its been so long, I've forgotten some of them.....

sometimes people would cast things like Lightning form, for example, in prep for the dual. It signaled the dual almost starting

Thanks, @Recremen and @Cody that helps a lot.