RadioheadSh0t wrote: »

Rylana wrote: »

RadioheadSh0t wrote: »

I find it hilarious that people want both DKs to be buffed AND get an escape.

They basically want DKs to be able to do everything other classes can do (escape) while still being able to do things those classes who have escape can't (tank damage, reflect, etc.).

Balance DOES NOT MEAN everyone can do the same thing. Sure, DK could use some tweaks, but not all classes should be able to do all things, and one class certainy shouldnt have them all.

NBs don't have a shield, viable self heal, or reflect. Sorcs have no melee class skills, reflect, or viable self heal. Templars and DKs don't have an escape, but they excel at things NBs and Sorcs cannot do.

That's not to say there aren't improvements to be made to class balance, but just "give DKs everything they don't have, while making the things they have more powerful" is not an option.

They do need to revert the most form change, though.

That is not what anyone is asking for, actually.

Currently in the meta...

Magicka DPS - Nightblade, Sorc, Templar, DK in that order
Stamina DPS - Nightblade, Templar, Sorc, DK in that order (varies as a stam DPS is pretty much all weapon skills and barely relies on class abilities anyway)
Magicka Tank - HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA Only a sorc or a beefy templar could really do this, by not mitigation but sustain shield stacking + heals
Stamina Tank - literally the only place a DK shines, but still a Stamplar could make a solid argument for being superior, completely useless in PvP
Healer - DKs have no real class support in their skill lines to be a healer. Any other class is better for this role, of either flavor.

My whole point, minus nitpicking of where I placed the classes, universally DKs are now the lowest order of preference in ANY role, both PvE and PvP (except for stam tanking trials and vet dungeons, they are still "ok" there)

DKs always needed to be able to both tank/survive as well as do damage or bring something else to the group to be viable in PvP, by pure nature of their class skill lines. Templars of any flavor can heal and throw down mitigations/shards/repentance. Nightblades can stealth/reset. throw down veil, offheal very well with saps and funnels, and have the best CCs in the game. Sorcs are mobile cannons with arguably the best survival mechanics (movement and shields).

What does a DK in your group bring? What is their role now? Stand there, get CCed, blobbed, no self heals, take it up the ass and die?

pretty much.

That's not what anyone is asking for? You must not be listening, because I could cite several posts where people complain about the lack of mobility/escape. There are loads of people asking for it, and in this very thread. In the "We Are ESO" podcast, 3/4 of the panelists wanted some sort of DK escape.

And I think you're MASSIVELY underrating Stam DKs. They give me more trouble than any other build 1v1. They can mitigate tons of damage and still hit me very hard. Fossilize and leap are great 1v1.

In group, Stam DKs can still spin just as well as anyone, have an incredibly useful CC against groups (shouldnt be block able though), and have by far the best AOE ultimate in the game.

DK could use some love, but rumors of its demise are greatly exaggerated.

You realize the title of this thread is Rise and Fall of the MAGICKA DK correct?

So dont be telling me anything about Stam DKs and their viability (which I am aware of, and did note) in the same paragraph as justifying how the DK skill lines need no adjustment whatsoever.

Currently if youre not a Stamina build, you have no place full stop. Even Stam DKs fall short of Stamblades and Stamplars in respective departments.

Also, 1v1 is NICHE. So what if you can 1v1 with a build? This is a group game, you need to be able to bring something to your GROUP. With a magicka or hybrid specced dk you wont be doing much of anything past sponging heals and flailing at opponents doing less damage than any other class. That is the problem.

RadioheadSh0t wrote: »

Rylana wrote: »

RadioheadSh0t wrote: »

Rylana wrote: »

RadioheadSh0t wrote: »

I find it hilarious that people want both DKs to be buffed AND get an escape.

They basically want DKs to be able to do everything other classes can do (escape) while still being able to do things those classes who have escape can't (tank damage, reflect, etc.).

Balance DOES NOT MEAN everyone can do the same thing. Sure, DK could use some tweaks, but not all classes should be able to do all things, and one class certainy shouldnt have them all.

NBs don't have a shield, viable self heal, or reflect. Sorcs have no melee class skills, reflect, or viable self heal. Templars and DKs don't have an escape, but they excel at things NBs and Sorcs cannot do.

That's not to say there aren't improvements to be made to class balance, but just "give DKs everything they don't have, while making the things they have more powerful" is not an option.

They do need to revert the most form change, though.

That is not what anyone is asking for, actually.

Currently in the meta...

Magicka DPS - Nightblade, Sorc, Templar, DK in that order
Stamina DPS - Nightblade, Templar, Sorc, DK in that order (varies as a stam DPS is pretty much all weapon skills and barely relies on class abilities anyway)
Magicka Tank - HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA Only a sorc or a beefy templar could really do this, by not mitigation but sustain shield stacking + heals
Stamina Tank - literally the only place a DK shines, but still a Stamplar could make a solid argument for being superior, completely useless in PvP
Healer - DKs have no real class support in their skill lines to be a healer. Any other class is better for this role, of either flavor.

My whole point, minus nitpicking of where I placed the classes, universally DKs are now the lowest order of preference in ANY role, both PvE and PvP (except for stam tanking trials and vet dungeons, they are still "ok" there)

DKs always needed to be able to both tank/survive as well as do damage or bring something else to the group to be viable in PvP, by pure nature of their class skill lines. Templars of any flavor can heal and throw down mitigations/shards/repentance. Nightblades can stealth/reset. throw down veil, offheal very well with saps and funnels, and have the best CCs in the game. Sorcs are mobile cannons with arguably the best survival mechanics (movement and shields).

What does a DK in your group bring? What is their role now? Stand there, get CCed, blobbed, no self heals, take it up the ass and die?

pretty much.

That's not what anyone is asking for? You must not be listening, because I could cite several posts where people complain about the lack of mobility/escape. There are loads of people asking for it, and in this very thread. In the "We Are ESO" podcast, 3/4 of the panelists wanted some sort of DK escape.

And I think you're MASSIVELY underrating Stam DKs. They give me more trouble than any other build 1v1. They can mitigate tons of damage and still hit me very hard. Fossilize and leap are great 1v1.

In group, Stam DKs can still spin just as well as anyone, have an incredibly useful CC against groups (shouldnt be block able though), and have by far the best AOE ultimate in the game.

DK could use some love, but rumors of its demise are greatly exaggerated.

You realize the title of this thread is Rise and Fall of the MAGICKA DK correct?

So dont be telling me anything about Stam DKs and their viability (which I am aware of, and did note) in the same paragraph as justifying how the DK skill lines need no adjustment whatsoever.

Currently if youre not a Stamina build, you have no place full stop. Even Stam DKs fall short of Stamblades and Stamplars in respective departments.

Also, 1v1 is NICHE. So what if you can 1v1 with a build? This is a group game, you need to be able to bring something to your GROUP. With a magicka or hybrid specced dk you wont be doing much of anything past sponging heals and flailing at opponents doing less damage than any other class. That is the problem.

Do you have reading comprehension problems? I never said DKs need no adjustments whatsoever. Keep fighting that straw man, he doesn't fight back that well.

I agree with a lot of people that magicka DKs could use a buff, but they're not nearly as relatively weak now as they were once relatively strong. Part of that is nerfs, part of that is the CP system bias towards Stam, part of it is the block change, and part of it is the LA mitigation changes. They got hurt more by universal combat changes than specific class based changes.

If you didn't want me to talk about Stam DKs you shouldn't have brought them up. I have more problems with Stam DKs on my Stamblade than any other class. They can mitigate so much, and still deal very good damage, along with a great CC and single target ultimate.

Do you disagree that DKs have the best AoE damage ultimate? Does that not help group play?

There is nothing intrinsic about a stam DK that mitigates damage. They simply choose heavy armor because other wise they are dead in seconds: no cloak, no shield and streak, no spam heal. Ergo: heavy armor, which is not unique to DK.

Joy_Division wrote: »

Ishammael wrote: »

RadioheadSh0t wrote: »

Rylana wrote: »

RadioheadSh0t wrote: »

Rylana wrote: »

RadioheadSh0t wrote: »

I find it hilarious that people want both DKs to be buffed AND get an escape.

They basically want DKs to be able to do everything other classes can do (escape) while still being able to do things those classes who have escape can't (tank damage, reflect, etc.).

Balance DOES NOT MEAN everyone can do the same thing. Sure, DK could use some tweaks, but not all classes should be able to do all things, and one class certainy shouldnt have them all.

NBs don't have a shield, viable self heal, or reflect. Sorcs have no melee class skills, reflect, or viable self heal. Templars and DKs don't have an escape, but they excel at things NBs and Sorcs cannot do.

That's not to say there aren't improvements to be made to class balance, but just "give DKs everything they don't have, while making the things they have more powerful" is not an option.

They do need to revert the most form change, though.

That is not what anyone is asking for, actually.

Currently in the meta...

Magicka DPS - Nightblade, Sorc, Templar, DK in that order
Stamina DPS - Nightblade, Templar, Sorc, DK in that order (varies as a stam DPS is pretty much all weapon skills and barely relies on class abilities anyway)
Magicka Tank - HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA Only a sorc or a beefy templar could really do this, by not mitigation but sustain shield stacking + heals
Stamina Tank - literally the only place a DK shines, but still a Stamplar could make a solid argument for being superior, completely useless in PvP
Healer - DKs have no real class support in their skill lines to be a healer. Any other class is better for this role, of either flavor.

My whole point, minus nitpicking of where I placed the classes, universally DKs are now the lowest order of preference in ANY role, both PvE and PvP (except for stam tanking trials and vet dungeons, they are still "ok" there)

DKs always needed to be able to both tank/survive as well as do damage or bring something else to the group to be viable in PvP, by pure nature of their class skill lines. Templars of any flavor can heal and throw down mitigations/shards/repentance. Nightblades can stealth/reset. throw down veil, offheal very well with saps and funnels, and have the best CCs in the game. Sorcs are mobile cannons with arguably the best survival mechanics (movement and shields).

What does a DK in your group bring? What is their role now? Stand there, get CCed, blobbed, no self heals, take it up the ass and die?

pretty much.

That's not what anyone is asking for? You must not be listening, because I could cite several posts where people complain about the lack of mobility/escape. There are loads of people asking for it, and in this very thread. In the "We Are ESO" podcast, 3/4 of the panelists wanted some sort of DK escape.

And I think you're MASSIVELY underrating Stam DKs. They give me more trouble than any other build 1v1. They can mitigate tons of damage and still hit me very hard. Fossilize and leap are great 1v1.

In group, Stam DKs can still spin just as well as anyone, have an incredibly useful CC against groups (shouldnt be block able though), and have by far the best AOE ultimate in the game.

DK could use some love, but rumors of its demise are greatly exaggerated.

You realize the title of this thread is Rise and Fall of the MAGICKA DK correct?

So dont be telling me anything about Stam DKs and their viability (which I am aware of, and did note) in the same paragraph as justifying how the DK skill lines need no adjustment whatsoever.

Currently if youre not a Stamina build, you have no place full stop. Even Stam DKs fall short of Stamblades and Stamplars in respective departments.

Also, 1v1 is NICHE. So what if you can 1v1 with a build? This is a group game, you need to be able to bring something to your GROUP. With a magicka or hybrid specced dk you wont be doing much of anything past sponging heals and flailing at opponents doing less damage than any other class. That is the problem.

Do you have reading comprehension problems? I never said DKs need no adjustments whatsoever. Keep fighting that straw man, he doesn't fight back that well.

I agree with a lot of people that magicka DKs could use a buff, but they're not nearly as relatively weak now as they were once relatively strong. Part of that is nerfs, part of that is the CP system bias towards Stam, part of it is the block change, and part of it is the LA mitigation changes. They got hurt more by universal combat changes than specific class based changes.

If you didn't want me to talk about Stam DKs you shouldn't have brought them up. I have more problems with Stam DKs on my Stamblade than any other class. They can mitigate so much, and still deal very good damage, along with a great CC and single target ultimate.

Do you disagree that DKs have the best AoE damage ultimate? Does that not help group play?

There is nothing intrinsic about a stam DK that mitigates damage. They simply choose heavy armor because other wise they are dead in seconds: no cloak, no shield and streak, no spam heal. Ergo: heavy armor, which is not unique to DK.

It's reputation. People think that a DK they come across in Cyrodiil is "tanky" because it is a DK, not because the player or other aspects of their build.

I know... Was trying to clarify. *sob*

Rip cinder storm
Rip gdb
Rip flaps
Rip dynamic ultimate

Joy_Division wrote: »

Ishammael wrote: »

RadioheadSh0t wrote: »

Rylana wrote: »

RadioheadSh0t wrote: »

Rylana wrote: »

RadioheadSh0t wrote: »

I find it hilarious that people want both DKs to be buffed AND get an escape.

They basically want DKs to be able to do everything other classes can do (escape) while still being able to do things those classes who have escape can't (tank damage, reflect, etc.).

Balance DOES NOT MEAN everyone can do the same thing. Sure, DK could use some tweaks, but not all classes should be able to do all things, and one class certainy shouldnt have them all.

NBs don't have a shield, viable self heal, or reflect. Sorcs have no melee class skills, reflect, or viable self heal. Templars and DKs don't have an escape, but they excel at things NBs and Sorcs cannot do.

That's not to say there aren't improvements to be made to class balance, but just "give DKs everything they don't have, while making the things they have more powerful" is not an option.

They do need to revert the most form change, though.

That is not what anyone is asking for, actually.

Currently in the meta...

Magicka DPS - Nightblade, Sorc, Templar, DK in that order
Stamina DPS - Nightblade, Templar, Sorc, DK in that order (varies as a stam DPS is pretty much all weapon skills and barely relies on class abilities anyway)
Magicka Tank - HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA Only a sorc or a beefy templar could really do this, by not mitigation but sustain shield stacking + heals
Stamina Tank - literally the only place a DK shines, but still a Stamplar could make a solid argument for being superior, completely useless in PvP
Healer - DKs have no real class support in their skill lines to be a healer. Any other class is better for this role, of either flavor.

My whole point, minus nitpicking of where I placed the classes, universally DKs are now the lowest order of preference in ANY role, both PvE and PvP (except for stam tanking trials and vet dungeons, they are still "ok" there)

DKs always needed to be able to both tank/survive as well as do damage or bring something else to the group to be viable in PvP, by pure nature of their class skill lines. Templars of any flavor can heal and throw down mitigations/shards/repentance. Nightblades can stealth/reset. throw down veil, offheal very well with saps and funnels, and have the best CCs in the game. Sorcs are mobile cannons with arguably the best survival mechanics (movement and shields).

What does a DK in your group bring? What is their role now? Stand there, get CCed, blobbed, no self heals, take it up the ass and die?

pretty much.

That's not what anyone is asking for? You must not be listening, because I could cite several posts where people complain about the lack of mobility/escape. There are loads of people asking for it, and in this very thread. In the "We Are ESO" podcast, 3/4 of the panelists wanted some sort of DK escape.

And I think you're MASSIVELY underrating Stam DKs. They give me more trouble than any other build 1v1. They can mitigate tons of damage and still hit me very hard. Fossilize and leap are great 1v1.

In group, Stam DKs can still spin just as well as anyone, have an incredibly useful CC against groups (shouldnt be block able though), and have by far the best AOE ultimate in the game.

DK could use some love, but rumors of its demise are greatly exaggerated.

You realize the title of this thread is Rise and Fall of the MAGICKA DK correct?

So dont be telling me anything about Stam DKs and their viability (which I am aware of, and did note) in the same paragraph as justifying how the DK skill lines need no adjustment whatsoever.

Currently if youre not a Stamina build, you have no place full stop. Even Stam DKs fall short of Stamblades and Stamplars in respective departments.

Also, 1v1 is NICHE. So what if you can 1v1 with a build? This is a group game, you need to be able to bring something to your GROUP. With a magicka or hybrid specced dk you wont be doing much of anything past sponging heals and flailing at opponents doing less damage than any other class. That is the problem.

Do you have reading comprehension problems? I never said DKs need no adjustments whatsoever. Keep fighting that straw man, he doesn't fight back that well.

I agree with a lot of people that magicka DKs could use a buff, but they're not nearly as relatively weak now as they were once relatively strong. Part of that is nerfs, part of that is the CP system bias towards Stam, part of it is the block change, and part of it is the LA mitigation changes. They got hurt more by universal combat changes than specific class based changes.

If you didn't want me to talk about Stam DKs you shouldn't have brought them up. I have more problems with Stam DKs on my Stamblade than any other class. They can mitigate so much, and still deal very good damage, along with a great CC and single target ultimate.

Do you disagree that DKs have the best AoE damage ultimate? Does that not help group play?

There is nothing intrinsic about a stam DK that mitigates damage. They simply choose heavy armor because other wise they are dead in seconds: no cloak, no shield and streak, no spam heal. Ergo: heavy armor, which is not unique to DK.

It's reputation. People think that a DK they come across in Cyrodiil is "tanky" because it is a DK, not because the player or other aspects of their build.

Sorry my post was meant for @Ishammael

RadioheadSh0t wrote: »

I find it hilarious that people want both DKs to be buffed AND get an escape.

They basically want DKs to be able to do everything other classes can do (escape) while still being able to do things those classes who have escape can't (tank damage, reflect, etc.).

Balance DOES NOT MEAN everyone can do the same thing. Sure, DK could use some tweaks, but not all classes should be able to do all things, and one class certainy shouldnt have them all.

NBs don't have a shield, viable self heal, or reflect. Sorcs have no melee class skills, reflect, or viable self heal. Templars and DKs don't have an escape, but they excel at things NBs and Sorcs cannot do.

That's not to say there aren't improvements to be made to class balance, but just "give DKs everything they don't have, while making the things they have more powerful" is not an option.

They do need to revert the most form change, though.

Hmm, let's examine a few things here that you said.

1. The classes you listed, sorc and nightblade can both tank damage, sorcs via just shields have been able to face tank far better then dks since 1.6... Nightblade a have access to the sap tank build and are incredibly hard to kill when running it. This is to go a long with their actual mobility as well.
2. Let's examine your nb point first, you can get harness magicka and healing ward as a magical nightblade, which also covers heals, you can also go 1hd shield if you want a viable reflect. This is of course completely ignoring dark cloaks ability to flat out dodge single target attacks... As a stamina nightblade you have access to vigor which completely outclasses gdb from dks in every way, as magicka you have sap and funnel health which again, will vastly out heal gdb right now.
3. Sorcs, you have then 1hd shield if you want reflect, or bolt escape for just absorbing spells, magicka you have healing ward which works great with your own class shield, and lack of melee skills is pointless as you'll be using the same attack dks use in melee, wrecking blow.. If you are stamina based you have vigor of course..

In otherwords, whatever weakness you think nightblades and sorcs have were removed long ago from this game. I play a nightblade... I know you are completely off your rocker when you talk about dks having an advantage over them.

Master_Kas wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

RadioheadSh0t wrote: »

I find it hilarious that people want both DKs to be buffed AND get an escape.

They basically want DKs to be able to do everything other classes can do (escape) while still being able to do things those classes who have escape can't (tank damage, reflect, etc.).

Balance DOES NOT MEAN everyone can do the same thing. Sure, DK could use some tweaks, but not all classes should be able to do all things, and one class certainy shouldnt have them all.

NBs don't have a shield, viable self heal, or reflect. Sorcs have no melee class skills, reflect, or viable self heal. Templars and DKs don't have an escape, but they excel at things NBs and Sorcs cannot do.

That's not to say there aren't improvements to be made to class balance, but just "give DKs everything they don't have, while making the things they have more powerful" is not an option.

They do need to revert the most form change, though.

Hmm, let's examine a few things here that you said.

1. The classes you listed, sorc and nightblade can both tank damage, sorcs via just shields have been able to face tank far better then dks since 1.6... Nightblade a have access to the sap tank build and are incredibly hard to kill when running it. This is to go a long with their actual mobility as well.
2. Let's examine your nb point first, you can get harness magicka and healing ward as a magical nightblade, which also covers heals, you can also go 1hd shield if you want a viable reflect. This is of course completely ignoring dark cloaks ability to flat out dodge single target attacks... As a stamina nightblade you have access to vigor which completely outclasses gdb from dks in every way, as magicka you have sap and funnel health which again, will vastly out heal gdb right now.
3. Sorcs, you have then 1hd shield if you want reflect, or bolt escape for just absorbing spells, magicka you have healing ward which works great with your own class shield, and lack of melee skills is pointless as you'll be using the same attack dks use in melee, wrecking blow.. If you are stamina based you have vigor of course..

In otherwords, whatever weakness you think nightblades and sorcs have were removed long ago from this game. I play a nightblade... I know you are completely off your rocker when you talk about dks having an advantage over them.

Saptank still works? Haven't seen one which doesn't die pretty quickly in 1vX in a long long time.

Sap tank was pretty much destroyed because they changed it from % stat to a flat number, I fear the day they do that to helping hand, and battle roar.

Love_Chunks wrote: »

I dont pvp on my dk but is there a reason why people dont bring up chains when talking about magicka gap closers?

Two main issues: it is incredibly inconsistent to use, sometimes the enemy stands on a small stone and you can't use it... with charge skills you can actually charge upstairs etc. Second, if you pull the enemy, he instantly gets free cc immunity.

That's a point I've always got confused with Zenimax... With the dynamic ult change to static why didn't they reverse the ult cost for standard.

It seems like every change or balance they do is very amateurish really like that have no clue sometimes... I was a bit more understanding when they were new but would of hoped they got it by now being more experienced.

Ishammael wrote: »

Informal poll:

How many magicka DKs do you see in cyrodiil on a daily basis?

quite a lot, but tell me how many stamina Templars you see?

Bashev wrote: »

Alcast wrote: »

Ishammael wrote: »

Informal poll:

How many magicka DKs do you see in cyrodiil on a daily basis?

quite a lot, but tell me how many stamina Templars you see?

But the main advantage for stamina DK against Stamina Templ is the burst damage from the leap. What else is so much more significant?

There are a lot of things different with Stam dk to stam templar...

Fossilize with Stun and when you break free you are rooted
_____________________________________________________________
AND the most important "Resource Management" with Helping Hands Passive + Battle Roar + Molten Armaments which I consider the most OP of all 4 classes for stamina based.
_____________________________________________________________
That is also why I can run a full weap/stam build with my DK due to those 3 small things whereas with other classes that is NOWHERE close possible.

Ishammael wrote: »

RadioheadSh0t wrote: »

Rylana wrote: »

RadioheadSh0t wrote: »

Rylana wrote: »

RadioheadSh0t wrote: »

I find it hilarious that people want both DKs to be buffed AND get an escape.

They basically want DKs to be able to do everything other classes can do (escape) while still being able to do things those classes who have escape can't (tank damage, reflect, etc.).

Balance DOES NOT MEAN everyone can do the same thing. Sure, DK could use some tweaks, but not all classes should be able to do all things, and one class certainy shouldnt have them all.

NBs don't have a shield, viable self heal, or reflect. Sorcs have no melee class skills, reflect, or viable self heal. Templars and DKs don't have an escape, but they excel at things NBs and Sorcs cannot do.

That's not to say there aren't improvements to be made to class balance, but just "give DKs everything they don't have, while making the things they have more powerful" is not an option.

They do need to revert the most form change, though.

That is not what anyone is asking for, actually.

Currently in the meta...

Magicka DPS - Nightblade, Sorc, Templar, DK in that order
Stamina DPS - Nightblade, Templar, Sorc, DK in that order (varies as a stam DPS is pretty much all weapon skills and barely relies on class abilities anyway)
Magicka Tank - HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA Only a sorc or a beefy templar could really do this, by not mitigation but sustain shield stacking + heals
Stamina Tank - literally the only place a DK shines, but still a Stamplar could make a solid argument for being superior, completely useless in PvP
Healer - DKs have no real class support in their skill lines to be a healer. Any other class is better for this role, of either flavor.

My whole point, minus nitpicking of where I placed the classes, universally DKs are now the lowest order of preference in ANY role, both PvE and PvP (except for stam tanking trials and vet dungeons, they are still "ok" there)

DKs always needed to be able to both tank/survive as well as do damage or bring something else to the group to be viable in PvP, by pure nature of their class skill lines. Templars of any flavor can heal and throw down mitigations/shards/repentance. Nightblades can stealth/reset. throw down veil, offheal very well with saps and funnels, and have the best CCs in the game. Sorcs are mobile cannons with arguably the best survival mechanics (movement and shields).

What does a DK in your group bring? What is their role now? Stand there, get CCed, blobbed, no self heals, take it up the ass and die?

pretty much.

That's not what anyone is asking for? You must not be listening, because I could cite several posts where people complain about the lack of mobility/escape. There are loads of people asking for it, and in this very thread. In the "We Are ESO" podcast, 3/4 of the panelists wanted some sort of DK escape.

And I think you're MASSIVELY underrating Stam DKs. They give me more trouble than any other build 1v1. They can mitigate tons of damage and still hit me very hard. Fossilize and leap are great 1v1.

In group, Stam DKs can still spin just as well as anyone, have an incredibly useful CC against groups (shouldnt be block able though), and have by far the best AOE ultimate in the game.

DK could use some love, but rumors of its demise are greatly exaggerated.

You realize the title of this thread is Rise and Fall of the MAGICKA DK correct?

So dont be telling me anything about Stam DKs and their viability (which I am aware of, and did note) in the same paragraph as justifying how the DK skill lines need no adjustment whatsoever.

Currently if youre not a Stamina build, you have no place full stop. Even Stam DKs fall short of Stamblades and Stamplars in respective departments.

Also, 1v1 is NICHE. So what if you can 1v1 with a build? This is a group game, you need to be able to bring something to your GROUP. With a magicka or hybrid specced dk you wont be doing much of anything past sponging heals and flailing at opponents doing less damage than any other class. That is the problem.

Do you have reading comprehension problems? I never said DKs need no adjustments whatsoever. Keep fighting that straw man, he doesn't fight back that well.

I agree with a lot of people that magicka DKs could use a buff, but they're not nearly as relatively weak now as they were once relatively strong. Part of that is nerfs, part of that is the CP system bias towards Stam, part of it is the block change, and part of it is the LA mitigation changes. They got hurt more by universal combat changes than specific class based changes.

If you didn't want me to talk about Stam DKs you shouldn't have brought them up. I have more problems with Stam DKs on my Stamblade than any other class. They can mitigate so much, and still deal very good damage, along with a great CC and single target ultimate.

Do you disagree that DKs have the best AoE damage ultimate? Does that not help group play?

There is nothing intrinsic about a stam DK that mitigates damage. They simply choose heavy armor because other wise they are dead in seconds: no cloak, no shield and streak, no spam heal. Ergo: heavy armor, which is not unique to DK.

Joy_Division wrote: »

Ishammael wrote: »

RadioheadSh0t wrote: »

Rylana wrote: »

RadioheadSh0t wrote: »

Rylana wrote: »

RadioheadSh0t wrote: »

I find it hilarious that people want both DKs to be buffed AND get an escape.

They basically want DKs to be able to do everything other classes can do (escape) while still being able to do things those classes who have escape can't (tank damage, reflect, etc.).

Balance DOES NOT MEAN everyone can do the same thing. Sure, DK could use some tweaks, but not all classes should be able to do all things, and one class certainy shouldnt have them all.

NBs don't have a shield, viable self heal, or reflect. Sorcs have no melee class skills, reflect, or viable self heal. Templars and DKs don't have an escape, but they excel at things NBs and Sorcs cannot do.

That's not to say there aren't improvements to be made to class balance, but just "give DKs everything they don't have, while making the things they have more powerful" is not an option.

They do need to revert the most form change, though.

That is not what anyone is asking for, actually.

Currently in the meta...

Magicka DPS - Nightblade, Sorc, Templar, DK in that order
Stamina DPS - Nightblade, Templar, Sorc, DK in that order (varies as a stam DPS is pretty much all weapon skills and barely relies on class abilities anyway)
Magicka Tank - HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA Only a sorc or a beefy templar could really do this, by not mitigation but sustain shield stacking + heals
Stamina Tank - literally the only place a DK shines, but still a Stamplar could make a solid argument for being superior, completely useless in PvP
Healer - DKs have no real class support in their skill lines to be a healer. Any other class is better for this role, of either flavor.

My whole point, minus nitpicking of where I placed the classes, universally DKs are now the lowest order of preference in ANY role, both PvE and PvP (except for stam tanking trials and vet dungeons, they are still "ok" there)

DKs always needed to be able to both tank/survive as well as do damage or bring something else to the group to be viable in PvP, by pure nature of their class skill lines. Templars of any flavor can heal and throw down mitigations/shards/repentance. Nightblades can stealth/reset. throw down veil, offheal very well with saps and funnels, and have the best CCs in the game. Sorcs are mobile cannons with arguably the best survival mechanics (movement and shields).

What does a DK in your group bring? What is their role now? Stand there, get CCed, blobbed, no self heals, take it up the ass and die?

pretty much.

That's not what anyone is asking for? You must not be listening, because I could cite several posts where people complain about the lack of mobility/escape. There are loads of people asking for it, and in this very thread. In the "We Are ESO" podcast, 3/4 of the panelists wanted some sort of DK escape.

And I think you're MASSIVELY underrating Stam DKs. They give me more trouble than any other build 1v1. They can mitigate tons of damage and still hit me very hard. Fossilize and leap are great 1v1.

In group, Stam DKs can still spin just as well as anyone, have an incredibly useful CC against groups (shouldnt be block able though), and have by far the best AOE ultimate in the game.

DK could use some love, but rumors of its demise are greatly exaggerated.

You realize the title of this thread is Rise and Fall of the MAGICKA DK correct?

So dont be telling me anything about Stam DKs and their viability (which I am aware of, and did note) in the same paragraph as justifying how the DK skill lines need no adjustment whatsoever.

Currently if youre not a Stamina build, you have no place full stop. Even Stam DKs fall short of Stamblades and Stamplars in respective departments.

Also, 1v1 is NICHE. So what if you can 1v1 with a build? This is a group game, you need to be able to bring something to your GROUP. With a magicka or hybrid specced dk you wont be doing much of anything past sponging heals and flailing at opponents doing less damage than any other class. That is the problem.

Do you have reading comprehension problems? I never said DKs need no adjustments whatsoever. Keep fighting that straw man, he doesn't fight back that well.

I agree with a lot of people that magicka DKs could use a buff, but they're not nearly as relatively weak now as they were once relatively strong. Part of that is nerfs, part of that is the CP system bias towards Stam, part of it is the block change, and part of it is the LA mitigation changes. They got hurt more by universal combat changes than specific class based changes.

If you didn't want me to talk about Stam DKs you shouldn't have brought them up. I have more problems with Stam DKs on my Stamblade than any other class. They can mitigate so much, and still deal very good damage, along with a great CC and single target ultimate.

Do you disagree that DKs have the best AoE damage ultimate? Does that not help group play?

There is nothing intrinsic about a stam DK that mitigates damage. They simply choose heavy armor because other wise they are dead in seconds: no cloak, no shield and streak, no spam heal. Ergo: heavy armor, which is not unique to DK.

It's reputation. People think that a DK they come across in Cyrodiil is "tanky" because it is a DK, not because the player or other aspects of their build.

This is just untrue. "There is nothing intrinsic about a stam DK that mitigates damage"? Do two passives count as intrinsic? Do you not know that there is a DK passive that provides block mitigation? Or one for spell resist?

The fact that you're citing heavy armor shows that you don't understand that people are using MEDIUM armor for Stam DK's, still getting 75% mitigation on top of DK passive and CP mitigation, allowing for a good mix of mitigation and damage. Those are the DK's I'm talking about, the ones who can mitigate a bunch of my damage, and then unleash two wrecking blows and a leap and burst me down before I can even break CC. You don't need to be in heavy armor to have good block mitigation, because the DK passive and the CP system allow you to be effective without it.

Xsorus wrote: »

RadioheadSh0t wrote: »

I find it hilarious that people want both DKs to be buffed AND get an escape.

They basically want DKs to be able to do everything other classes can do (escape) while still being able to do things those classes who have escape can't (tank damage, reflect, etc.).

Balance DOES NOT MEAN everyone can do the same thing. Sure, DK could use some tweaks, but not all classes should be able to do all things, and one class certainy shouldnt have them all.

NBs don't have a shield, viable self heal, or reflect. Sorcs have no melee class skills, reflect, or viable self heal. Templars and DKs don't have an escape, but they excel at things NBs and Sorcs cannot do.

That's not to say there aren't improvements to be made to class balance, but just "give DKs everything they don't have, while making the things they have more powerful" is not an option.

They do need to revert the most form change, though.

Hmm, let's examine a few things here that you said.

1. The classes you listed, sorc and nightblade can both tank damage, sorcs via just shields have been able to face tank far better then dks since 1.6... Nightblade a have access to the sap tank build and are incredibly hard to kill when running it. This is to go a long with their actual mobility as well.
2. Let's examine your nb point first, you can get harness magicka and healing ward as a magical nightblade, which also covers heals, you can also go 1hd shield if you want a viable reflect. This is of course completely ignoring dark cloaks ability to flat out dodge single target attacks... As a stamina nightblade you have access to vigor which completely outclasses gdb from dks in every way, as magicka you have sap and funnel health which again, will vastly out heal gdb right now.
3. Sorcs, you have then 1hd shield if you want reflect, or bolt escape for just absorbing spells, magicka you have healing ward which works great with your own class shield, and lack of melee skills is pointless as you'll be using the same attack dks use in melee, wrecking blow.. If you are stamina based you have vigor of course..

In otherwords, whatever weakness you think nightblades and sorcs have were removed long ago from this game. I play a nightblade... I know you are completely off your rocker when you talk about dks having an advantage over them.

1. NB's can't tank damage, sap tanks are no longer viable like they once were. Sorcs shields? Hello shield-breaker, the worst effing thing ZOS has ever done. One cheeseball item set basically ruined an entire class.
2. "You can get harness magicka and healing ward as a magical nightblade" and you can use those skills with a magicka DK as well, whats your point? 1hS reflect is not "viable," I think its one of the most overrated skills in the game. "Stamina nightblade has access to vigor" and so does DK, so once again, whats your point? All you did was point out non-class abilities in comparing to classes, which is to say you made no point at all. (And for the record, I agree that GDB could use a buff).
3. 1hS reflect is garbage, like I said before. The only reflect worth a damn in the game is a DK class skill, even if people incorrectly, IMO, QQ about its nerf. If you're not running Destro/Resto as a Sorc, you're doing it all wrong IMHO. Did you just mention Ball of Lightning? You know that skill got nerfed into the ground right? Bolt has been nerfed and nerfed and nerfed, shields have been nerfed and the implemented a cheeseball item set to counter them, LA mitigation nerf hit sorcs the hardest as a class. "magicka you have healing ward" once again not a class skill. Lack of melee skills is not pointless for Sorcs, its an obvious deficiency of the class, just like lack of range and mobility is a deficiency in the DK class. THAT is balance. "If you are stamina based you have vigor of course" Jesus, stop using non-class based skills to compare classes, its terrible to read, that's the fourth time you've done it.

"In otherwords, whatever weakness you think nightblades and sorcs have were removed long ago from this game."

Then where is my NB heal or shield? Where is my Sorc melee attack or heal? These classes still have weaknesses, which is fine, but so should DK's (lack of range and mobility).

If you haven't run into the ultra-tough stam DK's in cyrodiil 1v1, either you're not 1vXing enough or you've been lucky. My "Super OP unstoppable Stamblade" has immense trouble with them. Even with 4k+ WD they mitigate a ton, and then deal out 10k WB's and Leaps. There aren't a ton of them out there, because a lot of people aren't creative enough to think outside the box, but a good stam DK is incredibly difficult to take down 1v1.

Alcast wrote: »

Yonkit wrote: »

Alcast wrote: »

Bashev wrote: »

Alcast wrote: »

Ishammael wrote: »

Informal poll:

How many magicka DKs do you see in cyrodiil on a daily basis?

quite a lot, but tell me how many stamina Templars you see?

But the main advantage for stamina DK against Stamina Templ is the burst damage from the leap. What else is so much more significant?

There are a lot of things different with Stam dk to stam templar...

Fossilize with Stun and when you break free you are rooted
_____________________________________________________________
AND the most important "Resource Management" with Helping Hands Passive + Battle Roar + Molten Armaments which I consider the most OP of all 4 classes for stamina based.
_____________________________________________________________
That is also why I can run a full weap/stam build with my DK due to those 3 small things whereas with other classes that is NOWHERE close possible.

I'm waiting for you to post a duel against a Magicka DK. The outcome would be even more hilarious than any of your current videos to date.

My stam DK build cannot kill perma Blocking Magicka Dks. Unless they are too slow breaking free of Fossilize.
Well if i might adjust the build a bit then yes, but who cares, usually I am just ignoring those permablockers.

I played a bit Magicka DK now, it seems solid its just the mobility that sucks balls.

Magicka DK permablocking... I'm confused

Armitas wrote: »

Alcast wrote: »

Yonkit wrote: »

Alcast wrote: »

Bashev wrote: »

Alcast wrote: »

Ishammael wrote: »

Informal poll:

How many magicka DKs do you see in cyrodiil on a daily basis?

quite a lot, but tell me how many stamina Templars you see?

But the main advantage for stamina DK against Stamina Templ is the burst damage from the leap. What else is so much more significant?

There are a lot of things different with Stam dk to stam templar...

Fossilize with Stun and when you break free you are rooted
_____________________________________________________________
AND the most important "Resource Management" with Helping Hands Passive + Battle Roar + Molten Armaments which I consider the most OP of all 4 classes for stamina based.
_____________________________________________________________
That is also why I can run a full weap/stam build with my DK due to those 3 small things whereas with other classes that is NOWHERE close possible.

I'm waiting for you to post a duel against a Magicka DK. The outcome would be even more hilarious than any of your current videos to date.

I played a bit Magicka DK now, it seems solid its just the mobility that sucks balls.

Well you see that is really the thing. You agree with us you just don't know it yet. You're in a nuke build and you're satisfied with your nuke damage, but you recognize that you don't have the mobility of the other classes to protect yourself and be generally viable and competitive in a nuke build. So what's the next logical step in your build? Replace the lack of mobility with defense and or healing. The result of which will be byebye nuke build hello fun noodle.

The magicka version of our class just cannot strap on + damage with no concerns over sustain and survival.

wich all other classes suffer too...
none the less i do agree that magica dk´s need an upgrade to dragon blood to match the cost of rally+vigor but aswell the healing out put too as no stamina user is not using both.
on the other side as i said in this thread dks mobility is balanced in regards of its awesome tank ability so if you insist in mobility you have to sacrifice tank ability wich means e.g. one of the reflective scales morphs to be change into an mobility tool wich boils down to either be more tanky or have the ability to avoid dmg in general - both is not possible as it would be highly unbalanced...

Armitas wrote: »

Alcast wrote: »

Yonkit wrote: »

Alcast wrote: »

Bashev wrote: »

Alcast wrote: »

Ishammael wrote: »

Informal poll:

How many magicka DKs do you see in cyrodiil on a daily basis?

quite a lot, but tell me how many stamina Templars you see?

But the main advantage for stamina DK against Stamina Templ is the burst damage from the leap. What else is so much more significant?

There are a lot of things different with Stam dk to stam templar...

Fossilize with Stun and when you break free you are rooted
_____________________________________________________________
AND the most important "Resource Management" with Helping Hands Passive + Battle Roar + Molten Armaments which I consider the most OP of all 4 classes for stamina based.
_____________________________________________________________
That is also why I can run a full weap/stam build with my DK due to those 3 small things whereas with other classes that is NOWHERE close possible.

I'm waiting for you to post a duel against a Magicka DK. The outcome would be even more hilarious than any of your current videos to date.

I played a bit Magicka DK now, it seems solid its just the mobility that sucks balls.

Well you see that is really the thing. You agree with us you just don't know it yet. You're in a nuke build and you're satisfied with your nuke damage, but you recognize that you don't have the mobility of the other classes to protect yourself and be generally viable and competitive in a nuke build. So what's the next logical step in your build? Replace the lack of mobility with defense and or healing. The result of which will be byebye nuke build hello fun noodle coupled with highly penetrated armor and greatly nerfed healing.

The magicka version of our class just cannot strap on + damage with no concerns over sustain and survival.

Well if you run solo you must have a Restostaff equiped anyway.

Atm I run Destro/Resto and it works fine. If I only had Magicka Det, would make burst a bit easier again. But in general had no issues killing ppl.

I could upload some video stuff, but way too much fun killing ppl with my Stam Burstbuild lol >.>