The Decline and Fall of the Magicka DK

Ishammael · October 2015

Trying to theory-craft a new magicka DK for 1.7 and the Orsinium... hard. >.<
I was reminded of the glory days.

Some of the awesomest clips of the magicka DK during 1.5.

Shout out to @Etaniel. That fight starting at 9:13 is probably the sickest DK 1.5 fight on video I have ever seen.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XastWEM6pq0

"BANNER DOWN" -- Need I say more? #LoM @Princess_Asgari @hammayolettuce (some of the most outrageous clips from this Emperorship I wish I had saved)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cLI0lqIMTkU

"ZoS Killed Small Scale" -- A study on dynamic ultimate and wrecking scrubs @Juraigr

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Twdk7CCUk-E

"Mini-Revival" -- The New Magicka DK for 1.6 by Bae Come Back

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6i738ahOIqc

"Tanking a Zerg" -- How far the fall: An illustration of the useless of magicka DK post 1.6 @Sypher

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g8Pvabq9Fso

"Magicka DK for 1.7" -- By Nobody
Please see latest threads in Alliance War section.

Ghostbane · October 2015

RIP Good Times.

DisgracefulMind · October 2015

Man 1.5 DK was so fun...I miss it a lot.

Every nerf they have done to drastically change PvP seems to have been directed at DKs. Nerf to Ult Gen, Nerf to block, etc. etc.

All we wanted to do was tank zergs q.q

Maulkin · October 2015

Hmmm I understand the frustration at the current state of DKs, I really do.

But bringing back videos of the times when a DK would yolo into 15-20 man zergs and not only tank but do insane AoE DPS while perma-blocking on Light Armor and never running out of resources thanks to Battle Roar and Bats....

If that's supposed to make me empathise more, it's not. It's having the opposite effect.

Lava_Croft · October 2015

***, playing Magicka DK requires a resemblance of effort now.

Etaniel · October 2015

Awesome compilation

Ishammael · October 2015

Lava_Croft wrote: »

***, playing Magicka DK requires a resemblance of effort now.

Roll one, tell me what that effort gets you against.

mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »

Hmmm I understand the frustration at the current state of DKs, I really do.

But bringing back videos of the times when a DK would yolo into 15-20 man zergs and not only tank but do insane AoE DPS while perma-blocking on Light Armor and never running out of resources thanks to Battle Roar and Bats....

If that's supposed to make me empathise more, it's not. It's having the opposite effect.

Like.. here's the thing. DK skills haven't changed too much -- in fact, they've changed the least since 1.6. The biggest change was dynamic ultimate. Post 1.6 changes have not been balanced against class skills. DK, as a class, made absolutely the most sense during 1.5. In the new meta, nothing works together properly. The passives, which used to be great now are awful.

Maulkin · October 2015

Ishammael wrote: »

Like.. here's the thing. DK skills haven't changed too much -- in fact, they've changed the least since 1.6. The biggest change was dynamic ultimate. Post 1.6 changes have not been balanced against class skills. DK, as a class, made absolutely the most sense during 1.5. In the new meta, nothing works together properly.

Again, dynamic ultimate + battle roar + bats was probably THE major reason DKs were unbalanced in 1.5. 99% of the people I see on the forums asking dynamic ult back are DKs. That'd bring us back to square one.

They have tried balancing around it. They gave buffs to Whip, Inhale and Stonefist. They've changed Molten Armaments and Cinder Storm a fair bit. In fact they've changed a lot from 1.6 and onwards if you think of it. More than on my Sorc for example.

But I agree magicka DK does need a bit of TLC atm. A magicka gap closer and some GDB love are sorely needed. Some group synergy like Molten Weapons of old would be very nice too, but won't change much from the DKs PoV.

A return to the ult generation of old is still a no-no for me. Though everyone's entitled to their opinions ofc

WRX · October 2015

mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »

Ishammael wrote: »

Like.. here's the thing. DK skills haven't changed too much -- in fact, they've changed the least since 1.6. The biggest change was dynamic ultimate. Post 1.6 changes have not been balanced against class skills. DK, as a class, made absolutely the most sense during 1.5. In the new meta, nothing works together properly.

Again, dynamic ultimate + battle roar + bats was probably THE major reason DKs were unbalanced in 1.5. 99% of the people I see on the forums asking dynamic ult back are DKs. That'd bring us back to square one.

They have tried balancing around it. They gave buffs to Whip, Inhale and Stonefist. They've changed Molten Armaments and Cinder Storm a fair bit. In fact they've changed a lot from 1.6 and onwards if you think of it. More than on my Sorc for example.

But I agree magicka DK does need a bit of TLC atm. A magicka gap closer and some GDB love are sorely needed. Some group synergy like Molten Weapons of old would be very nice too, but won't change much from the DKs PoV.

A return to the ult generation of old is still a no-no for me. Though everyone's entitled to their opinions ofc

Umm these change you just mentioned are nearly all nerfs or made 0 difference lol

Joy_Division · October 2015

That first video, wow I forgot 8 people could zerg bust.

Stikato · October 2015

Showing OP vids from the old days only makes the nerfs seems justified.

WRX · October 2015

Stikato wrote: »

Showing OP vids from the old days only makes the nerfs seems justified.

Notice the players they are fighting don't even know how to use ultimate or attack a target.

Showing bad players being bad is why the nerfs happened.

Takllin · October 2015

WRX wrote: »

Stikato wrote: »

Showing OP vids from the old days only makes the nerfs seems justified.

Notice the players they are fighting don't even know how to use ultimate or attack a target.

Showing bad players being bad is why the nerfs happened.

Which is almost every 1vX video. A good player highlighting him or herself beating down bad players. Then they come and QQ until 1vX is next to impossible anymore, aka IC update.

Ishammael · October 2015

Stikato wrote: »

Showing OP vids from the old days only makes the nerfs seems justified.

The videos of today are still of people owning scrubs. Nothing has changed.... except that the classes featured are Sorcs or NBs.

Ishammael · October 2015

mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »

They have tried balancing around it. They gave buffs to Whip, Inhale and Stonefist. They've changed Molten Armaments and Cinder Storm a fair bit. In fact they've changed a lot from 1.6 and onwards if you think of it. More than on my Sorc for example.

Sorry mate... but the changes to these skills have nearly all been nerfs.

EDIT: @WRX beat me to it.

Minno · October 2015

@Ishammael so I take that DK build you mentioned in sewers isn't going too well

vortexman11 · October 2015

The funny thing is, all the players in these videos most likely received 10,000 hate tells saying they were only good because they played DKs, yet they all continue to wreck face on other toons, playing difference classes, or changing their play style. Even though people say DK was "easy mode" in 1.5, there was a clear difference between when you ran into a good one, and when you ran into a copy.

Etaniel · October 2015

vortexman11 wrote: »

The funny thing is, all the players in this video that most likely received 10,000 hate tells saying they were only good because they played DKs, continue to wreck face on other toons, playing difference classes. Even though people say DK was "easy mode" in 1.5, there was a clear difference between when you ran into a good one, and when you ran into a copy.

I still wreck face on DK

Zheg · October 2015

We don't really need more of these threads, do we? Other classes have been at the bottom of the barrel for waaaay longer. Stam builds were at the bottom of the barrel until just recently. The tide will shift back in favor of DKs soon enough, so, even though a lot of my friends play DKs (and even though I have one as well) - chill with the gloom and doom already

Alcast · October 2015

Adapt or QQ, l2p issue i guess

Xsorus · October 2015

Its not that Magical DK's are bad...in the sense you can't make them work..you can...

Its just every other class does it better.

hammayolettuce · October 2015

Oh man that video brought back some memories. Asgari's whole emp reign in haderus was ridiculous.

aco5712 · October 2015

i remember being in that group with asgari and all of us for banner down. That was so funny xD good old days. Give me back this powerful DK plox

Darnathian · October 2015

Thank you for the post. Forgot how perfect the class was. Why I missed so much sleep. I always loved 1 v x videos. Gave me something to strive for. That feeling when it worked. My god nothing could compare.

I understand why nb's and sorcs want things to stay the way they are. I did too. Your day will come too. Enjoy it friends.

LameoveR · October 2015

Where can i find 1.5 pirate server?

Etaniel · October 2015

Ishammael wrote: »

"Magicka DK for 1.7" -- By Nobody
Please see latest threads in Alliance War section.

Will try to get a good dk vid up for 1.7 soon

Maulkin · October 2015

WRX wrote: »

Umm these change you just mentioned are nearly all nerfs or made 0 difference lol

Which is why the following paragraph said they need a couple of buffs. It's all in context.

I merely pointed out that ZOS did try to change things around the ult-gen change but they didn't do a very good job of it.

Maulkin · October 2015

Ishammael wrote: »

[
The videos of today are still of people owning scrubs. Nothing has changed.... except that the classes featured are Sorcs or NBs.

Mmm yes and no. Yes there are always videos of people owning scrubs. And yes NBs and Sorcs are on top atm, no doubt.

But if you watch the videos of both sorcs and NBs in their prime (from 1.6 to know), they 1vX by breaking fights into smaller 1v1 or 1v2s, picking off the weakest and working their way through. They use LOS heavily to get resources back. They frequently flee (one of their advantages) in the face of strong counters to their play like Radiant Magelight/Pots or Shield Breaker.

The DK videos from 1.1 - 1.5 consist of DKs just face tanking everything. Dropping into a group and just going through an aoe rotation of talons, inhale, cinder storm, scales and bats until everything around them melted or they died. The counter to that was to use meatbags pretty much.

Yes there were of course some excellent DK players, and still are whatever char they are playing now, I'm not levelling everything. But in my clear memory an average DK of those times was still a very tanky and deadly foe due to permablock and scales negating so much damage and the sustain through battle roar. While an average NB or Sorc of our times still melts the second he's focused.

Darnathian · October 2015

mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »

Ishammael wrote: »

[
The videos of today are still of people owning scrubs. Nothing has changed.... except that the classes featured are Sorcs or NBs.

Mmm yes and no. Yes there are always videos of people owning scrubs. And yes NBs and Sorcs are on top atm, no doubt.

But if you watch the videos of both sorcs and NBs in their prime (from 1.6 to know), they 1vX by breaking fights into smaller 1v1 or 1v2s, picking off the weakest and working their way through. They use LOS heavily to get resources back. They frequently flee (one of their advantages) in the face of strong counters to their play like Radiant Magelight/Pots or Shield Breaker.

The DK videos from 1.1 - 1.5 consist of DKs just face tanking everything. Dropping into a group and just going through an aoe rotation of talons, inhale, cinder storm, scales and bats until everything around them melted or they died. The counter to that was to use meatbags pretty much.

Yes there were of course some excellent DK players, and still are whatever char they are playing now, I'm not levelling everything. But in my clear memory an average DK of those times was still a very tanky and deadly foe due to permablock and scales negating so much damage and the sustain through battle roar. While an average NB or Sorc of our times still melts the second he's focused.

Hey good evening bud.

100% wrong. Good job

Sorcs absolutely face tanked dudes 1.6 and even now. Go watch some more videos or make some more friends. Then come back here and post

JackDaniell · October 2015

I don't think magicka DK is dead. I mean look at 1.5 and before. What do the videos have in common? They are all the same build. sure some may have a different morph or gear set but it's all the same rotation and play style. Block and mash your skills until everything dies taking advantage of the passive recourse return from battle roar to continue rampaging. Now this is a cool concept but it was broken until the ultimate change. Dynamic ult change won't come back unless they change battle roar and that's just the way it is.

Now 1.7 hit and the new meta HAS YET TO BE ESTABLISHED. So people say magicka DK can't work in 1vX anymore, have they perhaps tried a new build? New PLAYSTYLE? The IC patch has had a profound effect on pvp and people haven't adjusted to its changes properly yet. After playing my v4 magicka DK in pvp (batteleveled) I did not feel as if they were underpowered at all in fact I felt it was quite strong, but this is again my opinion.

I think that those who want thier DK to work will make it work, trail and error and trying new things and play styles. And those who want to OP DK days, you will enjoy your DK again when an individual puts the hard work into crafting a good build and decides to share it.

Now tell me who invented this meta magicka DK build? No one in the videos posted above

This build is the bane of DK buildcraft simply because it was so good that any other build or playstyle on the DK couldn't match up. All the other classes received allot more exploration and variation with builds. DK was simply for a year the sword and board resto dress monster to nearly all pvp player that played it, so they missed out on ALLOT of potential build craft especially since the well versed in DK who could have made powerful new and interesting builds mostly played the meta. So in a way DKS early OPness would eventually catch up with them.

And finally, chains is a great gap closer because you can dodge while you use it. DK OP gap closing! (I use chains on my DK it's actually quite good)

hammayolettuce · October 2015

JackDaniell wrote: »

I don't think magicka DK is dead. I mean look at 1.5 and before. What do the videos have in common? They are all the same build. sure some may have a different morph or gear set but it's all the same rotation and play style. Block and mash your skills until everything dies taking advantage of the passive recourse return from battle roar to continue rampaging. Now this is a cool concept but it was broken until the ultimate change. Dynamic ult change won't come back unless they change battle roar and that's just the way it is.

Now 1.7 hit and the new meta HAS YET TO BE ESTABLISHED. So people say magicka DK can't work in 1vX anymore, have they perhaps tried a new build? New PLAYSTYLE? The IC patch has had a profound effect on pvp and people haven't adjusted to its changes properly yet. After playing my v4 magicka DK in pvp (batteleveled) I did not feel as if they were underpowered at all in fact I felt it was quite strong, but this is again my opinion.

I think that those who want thier DK to work will make it work, trail and error and trying new things and play styles. And those who want to OP DK days, you will enjoy your DK again when an individual puts the hard work into crafting a good build and decides to share it.

Now tell me who invented this meta magicka DK build? No one in the videos posted above This build is the bane of DK buildcraft simply because it was so good that any other build or playstyle on the DK couldn't match up. All the other classes received allot more exploration and variation with builds. DK was simply for a year the sword and board resto dress monster to nearly all pvp player that played it, so they missed out on ALLOT of potential build craft especially since the well versed in DK who could have made powerful new and interesting builds mostly played the meta. So in a way DKS early OPness would eventually catch up with them.

And finally, chains is a great gap closer because you can dodge while you use it. DK OP gap closing! (I use chains on my DK it's actually quite good)

Magicka DK heavy armor setup was built early on by someone im not allowed to mention or ill get into trouble, but he worked with 2 others and made the build that eventually almost every DK went too. This same player was the first in probably all of ESO to even have the full bloodspawn set as they got the helm and shoulder not even an hour after undaunted was released and they used it on their DK before people knew how crazy it was.

Sure a lot of things get copied over from this patch or that patch etc. But there have been significant changes from pre 1.5 to now. Everything from skills to battle level and battle spirit have all been changed in one way or another. Unfortunately most changes since 1.5 have negatively affected Magicka DK the most. The only real escape a Magicka DK had that was mediocre at best was Elusive Mist. Now with the changes to it, it is nothing like before and not even worth running in 99.9% of builds.

Worst of all DKs have a class heal that doesnt heal... I mean why should magicka DKs be forced into either a Tank with no DPS or have great DPS but have to rely on others to survive when every other class doesnt need this? Magicka NB doesnt have a class shield or even a true heal like Dragons Blood or any of the templar heals yet they do amazing solo or in groups. You are telling me a class with a self heal and shield should have a heal that is worse than any other heal in the game?

Its not about a "New Meta" being found. Its about a Class that has 70% of its skills useless in PvP or nerfed to all oblivion or just plain useless in both PvP and PvE.

P.S. Chains is the only "gap close" and i will use that sparingly since thats how you used it, that gives CC immunity. .. Thats all that needs to be said.