VR removal

HerrRhodes · October 2015

So I have been a veteran rank character since the very beginning, as in within the first month, and while I will admit that it was a little shaky at first it did get better. It's now to the point where I actually like the way that the veteran system works. I have not heard so much about them talking about the removal of veteran ranks, and I'm not sure if it's still a topic of discussion, but I really hope they don't. I feel that the removal of the veteran ranks could cause a lot of confusion/chaos within interclass fights with things such as Pvp and PVE dungeon leader boards and such. I just hope they create a fully joint system of vr and cp.

FriedEggSandwich · October 2015

I don't want them removed either. I can't work out who they would be catering to if they did remove them. I can't even remember why people wanted them removed. The only time I ever felt negatively towards them was when I was levelling my main and since then they have made it easier to level, at least twice. Now I'm just glad there's an easy source of cp for the solo player; if I want to earn some cp quick I just jump on my v7 alt and do some questing.

Qyrk · October 2015

Their plans is to remove vet ranks after orsinium DLC. The exact time frame is actually unknown atm.

phairdon · October 2015

Cannot see the point ethier. My only gripe with veteran levels were how similar certain quests were across the three alliances. I'd like to see the level continue to increase with new DLC.

Enodoc · October 2015

The improvements and changes to battle levelling I think have made this less of an issue, but whether they remove VRs or not, I still would like to be able to do Craglorn viably at VR1 and not have to get up to VR11 beforehand. I also would like to be able to get into Cadwell's Gold zones without having to do Cadwell's Silver. That's my supporting reasons for the removal of VR; if they can do those without removing VR, then they can stay.

Jura23 · October 2015

Im probably being way too pesimistic here, but I think its given if they remove VR they screw it up somehow and nobody will be happy. Thats why I would rather keep them like they are now. Feel free to pleasantly surprise me ZOS.

Crabby654 · October 2015

So as someone who want the veteran ranks gone I can throw in my 2 cents. I played the game hardcore at launch and eventually quit because of the veteran ranks. I've been playing the game off and on due to veteran ranks. Here are my reasons. The veteran ranks are essentially more levels that require a lot of experience. So having to do an entire zone to gain 1 maybe 2 ranks feels like a grind. I love the games story and questing but man I am struggling to do cadwells gold because I am so burnt out on leveling. I've been VR 8 for months and I just want to do the VR 16 dungeons but I can't because I need to grind my way up to VR 16.

Ok let's say I finish cadwells gold and get to...lets me generous and say VR 12. Well now I need to grind out 4 veteran ranks with no structured way of doing it. Craglorn requires groups and there is no other questing zone. If you are going to add levels to an mmo you need to have a fleshed out way to earn those levels, not just "hey they'll figure it out". With imperial city the only way to get from VR 14-16 is to grind mobs? I mean that is bizarre to me in a modern day mmo.

I would love to hit max level (50) and have the entire game opened up to me. Instead of having to level up each patch in order to do the current content is a drag and should be reserved for big expansions.

Marrtha · October 2015

I really hope they keep the veteran ranks.

Jura23 · October 2015

Crabby654 wrote: »

So as someone who want the veteran ranks gone I can throw in my 2 cents. I played the game hardcore at launch and eventually quit because of the veteran ranks. I've been playing the game off and on due to veteran ranks. Here are my reasons. The veteran ranks are essentially more levels that require a lot of experience. So having to do an entire zone to gain 1 maybe 2 ranks feels like a grind. I love the games story and questing but man I am struggling to do cadwells gold because I am so burnt out on leveling. I've been VR 8 for months and I just want to do the VR 16 dungeons but I can't because I need to grind my way up to VR 16.

Ok let's say I finish cadwells gold and get to...lets me generous and say VR 12. Well now I need to grind out 4 veteran ranks with no structured way of doing it. Craglorn requires groups and there is no other questing zone. If you are going to add levels to an mmo you need to have a fleshed out way to earn those levels, not just "hey they'll figure it out". With imperial city the only way to get from VR 14-16 is to grind mobs? I mean that is bizarre to me in a modern day mmo.

I would love to hit max level (50) and have the entire game opened up to me. Instead of having to level up each patch in order to do the current content is a drag and should be reserved for big expansions.

I played LOTRO like a two years ago. I played it several months really intensively and I never even came close to the lvl cap on one toon I played the entire time. Lvling one toon to v16 here is a walk in the park compared to other games, trust me.

TalonShina · October 2015

I have one VR character she is VR1 so basically 50 but my husband has three toons in the VRs and one at 16. I think rather then get rid of them or just change the name of it just keep it at 16 and then continue with Cps don't bump everyone down to 50 that would *** people off and just changing the name to like 66 doesn't really change or remove them.

I kinda of like the name too rather then being level 66 I am Vet 16 that is to me is just a cool because it's not standard.

TheNephilimCrow · October 2015

I don't see how people have so much trouble leveling up after Vet Rank 1. I hit VR1 on an Alt and have jumped up to VR 4 in 3 days just questing and PvPing. I work 10 hour shifts, so I don't have time to grind like others. If I can do it, anyone can. People should look at themselves instead of blaming the system. I hope they keep VRs.

terrordactyl1971 · October 2015

Too late to remove them now, we would have another 6 months of patches to get things balanced again

Mettaricana · October 2015

This game isn't a korean mmo we don't need grind fests... if you like grind maplestory would lovevto have you. Vr ranks just suck their boring time wasters rather see base level cap increased and remove vet levels and set cap to like 80 but have exp progress normally rather than flat rate it.

Enodoc · October 2015

Crabby654 wrote: »

I would love to hit max level (50) and have the entire game opened up to me. Instead of having to level up each patch in order to do the current content is a drag and should be reserved for big expansions.

Indeed, I forgot this part in my reasoning above. Whoever heard of reaching endgame (officially Level 50) and then having to level up through endgame to a second cap? That's a contradiction to what "endgame" is supposed to be.

Ommamar · October 2015

Crabby654 wrote: »

So as someone who want the veteran ranks gone I can throw in my 2 cents. I played the game hardcore at launch and eventually quit because of the veteran ranks. I've been playing the game off and on due to veteran ranks. Here are my reasons. The veteran ranks are essentially more levels that require a lot of experience. So having to do an entire zone to gain 1 maybe 2 ranks feels like a grind. I love the games story and questing but man I am struggling to do cadwells gold because I am so burnt out on leveling. I've been VR 8 for months and I just want to do the VR 16 dungeons but I can't because I need to grind my way up to VR 16.

Ok let's say I finish cadwells gold and get to...lets me generous and say VR 12. Well now I need to grind out 4 veteran ranks with no structured way of doing it. Craglorn requires groups and there is no other questing zone. If you are going to add levels to an mmo you need to have a fleshed out way to earn those levels, not just "hey they'll figure it out". With imperial city the only way to get from VR 14-16 is to grind mobs? I mean that is bizarre to me in a modern day mmo.

I would love to hit max level (50) and have the entire game opened up to me. Instead of having to level up each patch in order to do the current content is a drag and should be reserved for big expansions.

Caldwells gold got me to 80% of the way through VR13. You can grind for the most part solo in Craglorn at VR14 you do have to be warry as there are some groups of mobs and public delves that become very difficult. Then if you get frustrated with that there are the undaunted pledges, Cyrodill dailies, Imperial City, and now the new DLC coming in November.

As to the original question I think that VR is to ingrained into the system to be removed. As to the person who stated that even with the buffs they feel underwhelmed in PVP. Even if everything was based off the CP system you still would. Someone with 551 CP or even 167 (what I currently have) compared to your 1 or 2 at VR1 is going to passively be more powerful then you. There also an issue with gear that comes into play the more a person plays the more likely it is they will have figured out the meta and tailored their build to take advantage of the hard core PVP drops. Then the players understanding of how to best use the skills in a PVP setting comes into play. I really don't think there is a valid way to get around this even if you temper peoples advancement there will always be those who have gotten more powerful just by spending time playing.

SneaK · October 2015

Leave them.

They could have implemented a way to fast track VR levels via main quest lines, ie. big bonus in VR XP gain for Cadwell's Silver and Gold quests, other side quests would still give XP but more so for champion points rather than VR XP.

Pallmor · October 2015

I have never liked the idea of them removing VR.

Fortunately, despite a lot of initial talk, ZOS seems completely uninterested in ever actually following through on removing them. When they released on console with the VR system still in place, I knew they weren't going anywhere. And if there was still any doubt, the fact that they have since added *new* VR levels has put them to bed.

UrQuan · October 2015

Crabby654 wrote: »

Ok let's say I finish cadwells gold and get to...lets me generous and say VR 12. Well now I need to grind out 4 veteran ranks with no structured way of doing it. Craglorn requires groups and there is no other questing zone. If you are going to add levels to an mmo you need to have a fleshed out way to earn those levels, not just "hey they'll figure it out". With imperial city the only way to get from VR 14-16 is to grind mobs? I mean that is bizarre to me in a modern day mmo.

Pre-Imperial City without grinding and without touching Craglorn, but with doing most of the PVE quests in Cyrodiil, and with doing Undaunted pledges once or twice a week, I got a character to VR14 (max level at the time) and still had 3 full zones of Cadwell's Gold left. When Imperial City released I got to VR16 just doing the main story quests there, and doing about half of the dailies once, and one of the new group dungeons. Especially with the reduction in XP per vet rank (although the vast majority of my leveling was done before that reduction) there's way more than enough XP in the content to get to max level without grinding.

For the record, I still haven't completed Cadwell's gold on any character - 2 zones to go on my VR16 and 3 zones to go on my VR12 (the VR12 has done none of Craglorn, almost no Undaunted pledges and almost no Cyrodiil PVE - just the dolmens there). None of my other characters on my main account (all VR1 or VR2) have gotten any further than the starter zones of their Cadwell's Silver, and that's only 1 of them - the rest are all still in Coldharbour and haven't finished the main quest yet. All you need to do to overlevel everything and easily get to max level without needing to grind is do everything (quests, delves, dolmens, world bosses, dungeons) and don't avoid fighting any of the mobs that you cross paths with.

wolfydog · October 2015

I leveled a character of mine to veteran since IC came out with the latest veteran changes. Its a lot faster now just questing even. I just hit vet level 6 on an EP character and I'm about to start the first quest in Alkir Desert. Lots of champ points too so far.

I'm thinking I'll be vet 14 at least by the time I finish AD. Its a much more manageable grind now, but its still a pretty big barrier in getting to the end game stuff.

phbell · October 2015

What is the problem with vet levels? It appears to me that the people whining most about VR levels are those hoping to avoid the work required to attain the ranking. All those currently in game with VR16 worked through the game to earn the ranking and it took time and patience.

Be glad we are not pre 1.5 when leveling from V11 to V12 took something like 5M xp. As it is, the amount of xp needed to level has been lowered with each patch. With 1.6 it was reduced to 1M and with 1.7 to 850k. The developers keep making it easier for every one, yet still complaints roll in.

I will wager that if all those complaining about vet levels were to magically jump to VR16 they would then complain about having nothing left to work for.

I vote that VR system be left alone. In fact, lets add a few more levels. I will give me something to work toward.

Lenikus · October 2015

They are removing the Veteran ranks.
they said so.
plenty of times, actually.

Around next year's april or june, it'll be gone already.
Maybe in march.

TalonShina · October 2015

Lenikus wrote: »

They are removing the Veteran ranks.
they said so.
plenty of times, actually.

Around next year's april or june, it'll be gone already.
Maybe in march.

They have said that. True, but I think they may come to realize doing it now or next year would be a mistake. they can't just send all the V16s back to 50 without backlash and consequences. If they just changed it to level 66 they didn't remove anything. If they want the CPs to take over as the progression that's fine but then they need to just leave the vet ranks alone and keep it at V16 and improve the CP system from here on out

phbell · October 2015

Lenikus wrote: »

They are removing the Veteran ranks.
they said so.
plenty of times, actually.

Around next year's april or june, it'll be gone already.
Maybe in march.

And every time they announce an end to Vet Ranks they add two more VR levels. Remember when VR12 was max? Then VR was going to be replaced with Champion Points - but instead we got both CP AND 2 more levels. Then with the last patch they added even more levels to VR16 - and now they capping CP's. They say one thing and then do the opposite.

I wouldn't hold your breath.

Kungfu · October 2015

UrQuan wrote: »

Crabby654 wrote: »

Ok let's say I finish cadwells gold and get to...lets me generous and say VR 12. Well now I need to grind out 4 veteran ranks with no structured way of doing it. Craglorn requires groups and there is no other questing zone. If you are going to add levels to an mmo you need to have a fleshed out way to earn those levels, not just "hey they'll figure it out". With imperial city the only way to get from VR 14-16 is to grind mobs? I mean that is bizarre to me in a modern day mmo.

Pre-Imperial City without grinding and without touching Craglorn, but with doing most of the PVE quests in Cyrodiil, and with doing Undaunted pledges once or twice a week, I got a character to VR14 (max level at the time) and still had 3 full zones of Cadwell's Gold left. When Imperial City released I got to VR16 just doing the main story quests there, and doing about half of the dailies once, and one of the new group dungeons. Especially with the reduction in XP per vet rank (although the vast majority of my leveling was done before that reduction) there's way more than enough XP in the content to get to max level without grinding.

For the record, I still haven't completed Cadwell's gold on any character - 2 zones to go on my VR16 and 3 zones to go on my VR12 (the VR12 has done none of Craglorn, almost no Undaunted pledges and almost no Cyrodiil PVE - just the dolmens there). None of my other characters on my main account (all VR1 or VR2) have gotten any further than the starter zones of their Cadwell's Silver, and that's only 1 of them - the rest are all still in Coldharbour and haven't finished the main quest yet. All you need to do to overlevel everything and easily get to max level without needing to grind is do everything (quests, delves, dolmens, world bosses, dungeons) and don't avoid fighting any of the mobs that you cross paths with.

Sorry but that's just flat out not true. You've either forgotten some stuff you did for extra XP or you're leaving it out. Grinding / Crafting / ... something.
Before IC came out, I had just finished Cadwell's Gold on my most recent Templar. I did EVERY quest in EVERY zone with a few very small exceptions. Although I may have missed a few quests in the game, I believe I missed fewer than 20 *total* as I received achievements for quests completed in every zone (EP, Cad's Silver, and Cad's Gold). I saved all of the group dungeon quests for vr1, though. To be honest, that all took an excruciating amount of time for me: close to 3 months at (I'd guess) anywhere from 4-20 hours per week.

Let's all try to remember that Cadwell's lines were only ever coded to get anyone up to vr12 in the first place.

When I *FINALLY* completed Cadwell's Gold and every group dungeon quest, my templar was a little less than halfway through vr12.

From there, I strapped on XP scrolls and was able to hit vr16 shortly after launch by: collecting all the skyshards and doing a few dolmen in Cyrodiil, completing the IC intro quests, doing IC dailies, doing pledges, AND grinding IC Molag runs with my guild.

I agree that veteran ranks are the way to go for the future. But I also see a problem - Cadwell's cannot take us to the max Vet Rank because it's a moving target. Similarly, you cannot expect to partake in the highest level, endgame dungeon runs without reaching max Vet Rank.

True, right now there is a gap that needs closing. The vr12 to vr16 gap is a rough one. BUT some of the changes coming with Orsinium related to dungeon grouping will be a small benefit here.

@ZOS - what I would recommend with the Dungeon grouping changes ... INCREASE THE XP REWARD FOR REPEATED DUNGEON RUNS!!

FFS... recognize for once that half of the reason WoW did so well for so long is that a player could level JUST from doing dungeons. SOME PEOPLE LOVE THAT! Myself included, of course. If the LFG system is upgraded successfully as the patch notes discuss **AND** the XP reward for dungeons makes them a viable leveling tool for vrX to vrY: I'd say "problem solved"

UrQuan · October 2015

Kungfu wrote: »

UrQuan wrote: »

Crabby654 wrote: »

Ok let's say I finish cadwells gold and get to...lets me generous and say VR 12. Well now I need to grind out 4 veteran ranks with no structured way of doing it. Craglorn requires groups and there is no other questing zone. If you are going to add levels to an mmo you need to have a fleshed out way to earn those levels, not just "hey they'll figure it out". With imperial city the only way to get from VR 14-16 is to grind mobs? I mean that is bizarre to me in a modern day mmo.

Pre-Imperial City without grinding and without touching Craglorn, but with doing most of the PVE quests in Cyrodiil, and with doing Undaunted pledges once or twice a week, I got a character to VR14 (max level at the time) and still had 3 full zones of Cadwell's Gold left. When Imperial City released I got to VR16 just doing the main story quests there, and doing about half of the dailies once, and one of the new group dungeons. Especially with the reduction in XP per vet rank (although the vast majority of my leveling was done before that reduction) there's way more than enough XP in the content to get to max level without grinding.

For the record, I still haven't completed Cadwell's gold on any character - 2 zones to go on my VR16 and 3 zones to go on my VR12 (the VR12 has done none of Craglorn, almost no Undaunted pledges and almost no Cyrodiil PVE - just the dolmens there). None of my other characters on my main account (all VR1 or VR2) have gotten any further than the starter zones of their Cadwell's Silver, and that's only 1 of them - the rest are all still in Coldharbour and haven't finished the main quest yet. All you need to do to overlevel everything and easily get to max level without needing to grind is do everything (quests, delves, dolmens, world bosses, dungeons) and don't avoid fighting any of the mobs that you cross paths with.

Sorry but that's just flat out not true. You've either forgotten some stuff you did for extra XP or you're leaving it out. Grinding / Crafting / ... something.
Before IC came out, I had just finished Cadwell's Gold on my most recent Templar. I did EVERY quest in EVERY zone with a few very small exceptions. Although I may have missed a few quests in the game, I believe I missed fewer than 20 *total* as I received achievements for quests completed in every zone (EP, Cad's Silver, and Cad's Gold). I saved all of the group dungeon quests for vr1, though. To be honest, that all took an excruciating amount of time for me: close to 3 months at (I'd guess) anywhere from 4-20 hours per week.

Nope. Didn't leave anything out. No grinding, few enough writs that it makes no real difference (I mostly do writs on other characters). I did literally every single quest in every zone, though, explored everywhere, killed every mob that was in my way, grabbed every chest I found, did all of the non-vet and vet dungeons, did 2-4 pledges a week, did every delve, did every world boss, did every dolmen, did every public dungeon, did almost all of the Cyrodiil PVE quests (all of the quest hubs, but not all of the non-repeatable quests that you find here and there). That's it. I was also most of the way to VR2 by the time I finished Coldharbour and the main quest, but that's happened on all of my characters. That's just from doing everything in every zone (including the starter islands) while on the way there.

Of course, it occurs to me that virtually all of this was after the XP per vet rank was reduced to 1,000,000 from whatever it was before (I think I was only up to VR2 before that change), so if some of your vet leveling was prior to that change, that could be the difference. Also, I'm a subscriber, so maybe the +10% bonus is a factor. Also, did you skip the starter zones in your Cadwell's Silver and Gold? There's at least 1/2 a vet level worth of XP there before you start the first full zone of Silver or Gold.

Baconlad · October 2015

WHY DOES EVERYONE IN THIS FRIGGING MMO WORLD THINK LEVELS AND POWER CREEP ARE RIGHT?! This game is about building your character and playing....thats it, grinding for six months to get gear then have the level cap increased and make all my gear almost worthless in competitive play is a slap in the face...why do you fuckstick support this? If they HAD NOT INCREASED LEVEL CAP to v16, and simply implemented not more powerful but "different" set bonuses, 90% of the population would still play the new content! 5% would *** moan and complain that they don't want the 90% to still be powerful aka "power creep fanbois", and 5% would not change a damn thing on their build and STILL be happy. We DO NOT need level increases EVER. cap should be 50. Until the end of eso. Champion system was supposed to be the "leveling system" to give us a carrot. I cannot stand that everytime I get geared for two roles in this game the level cap increases and I have top 6 months to enjoy my character. Quick question, was a level cap increase neccesarry between IC and ORC? NO! You know WHY? because they gave us more options to build! If they had never increased level cap from v10, we would still be getting all this awesome gear to go after, wed still have all the older content that wouldn't have to be scaled, and we wouldn't have had to grind out 6 pointless levels, just so that zos can "take out" gear sets they don't like. And god help them if after the dropping of vr's they gate gear through cp's....gear gating and level is a horrible concept and needs to go. ESO IS BETTER THAN THAT GUYS COMMON!

LordSemaj · October 2015

Enodoc wrote: »

Crabby654 wrote: »

I would love to hit max level (50) and have the entire game opened up to me. Instead of having to level up each patch in order to do the current content is a drag and should be reserved for big expansions.

Indeed, I forgot this part in my reasoning above. Whoever heard of reaching endgame (officially Level 50) and then having to level up through endgame to a second cap? That's a contradiction to what "endgame" is supposed to be.

Never heard of EverQuest? Dark Age of Camelot? RIFT? They all had alternate advancement systems where you grind XP for more power after hitting level cap. Even other MMOs don't stop the leveling process for good. Every time an expansion hits, games raise the level cap in order to invalidate all previous work and force people to grind for new gear while letting new and old players catch up to everyone else. There's little difference between VR16 and the level cap being raised to 66. I mean clearly level 50 isn't the "endgame" anymore than level 60 is the endgame for World of Warcraft. It's simply the end of the main story.

Ommamar · October 2015

Lenikus wrote: »

They are removing the Veteran ranks.
they said so.
plenty of times, actually.

Around next year's april or june, it'll be gone already.
Maybe in march.

Uhuh they also said things like this is a subscription game it will never have a b2p/f2p element to it. Time will tell but just because they make a statement I wouldn't put to much stock in it until I actually see it in action.

Asherons_Call · October 2015

What's the difference? I don't understand why people have an issue with this. What is the difference between VR16 and level 66 other than what you call it?

Shadesofkin · October 2015

Personally, I believe that it's in their best interest to get rid of the Veteran Ranks, gear progression and Champion Points will do plenty of the heavy lifting around character improvement.

I get why a lot of people think it's going to go badly, I really do, but I'm not convinced it will.

Kuroinu · October 2015

@HerrRhodes

Many good points made in this thread. The most interesting ones are made around the page I first posted the vid from Quakecon, before putting it in my original post.