Thoughts for Dragon Knight Buff

ArcVelarian · October 2015

I think we can all agree Dragon Knight has had its legs cut out from underneath it, so here's some proposed changes to fix that:

Ardent Flame:

Fiery Grip and its associated morphs now deal 25% more damage
Extended Chains now scales off of Stamina and has a chance to stun enemies for 3 seconds (this can only occur once every 9 seconds).
Lava Whip and its associated morphs now deal 30% more damage.
Molten Whip now scales off of Stamina and applies a life stealing DoT for 6 seconds.
Searing Heat now increases the damage of Fiery Breath, Searing Strike, and Dragonknight standard abilities by 8% (from 3%) and their duration by 4 seconds (from 2).

Draconic Power:

Spiked Armor and its associated morphs now cost 10% less magicka.
The additional effects of the Dark Talons morphs now last 8 seconds (from 4).
Green Dragon Blood now increases health and stamina recovery by 30% (from 20).
Coagulated Blood now increases health recovery by 30% (from 20) and healing received by 12% (from 8).

Earthen Heart:

Increase the duration of Magma Armor and its associated morphs to 12 seconds.
Stonefist and its associated morphs now deal 25% more damage.
Molten Weapons and its associated morphs now increase the damage of fully charged heavy attacks by 50% (from 43%) and last 10 seconds.
Helping Hands now restores 15% stamina (from 5%).

LordSemaj · October 2015

I mentioned this in the DK vs Sorc thread, but the reason Sorc shield-stacking is so great is that it synergizes well with Magicka and other abilities.

So rather than just increasing numbers everywhere, is there any part of DK you feel lacks synergy? Almost like it would be neat to take if it only played nicely with some other ability or stat, but as it stands it feels like a worthless pick?

MaxwellC · October 2015

Don't worry OP there is a buff coming to DKs in the next 3 to 4 months according to @ZOS_GinaBruno , I'd like it to come earlier than that but unfortunately that's doubtful.

UltimaJoe777 · October 2015

Don't want to be rude but this is clearly a case of learn 2 play. You want all (or almost all) DK skills to get serious buffs? That means you have yet to learn how to play as a DK.

Trayyacakes · October 2015

MaxwellCrystal wrote: »

Don't worry OP there is a buff coming to DKs in the next 3 to 4 months according to @ZOS_GinaBruno , I'd like it to come earlier than that but unfortunately that's doubtful.

She actually didn't say a buff was coming to DK, just that balance tweaks would take place some time early next year. For all we know that could actually mean more DK nerfs because reasons.

AhPook_Is_Here · October 2015

MaxwellCrystal wrote: »

Don't worry OP there is a buff coming to DKs in the next 3 to 4 months according to @ZOS_GinaBruno , I'd like it to come earlier than that but unfortunately that's doubtful.

I don't think she actually said there was a buff coming. She said next patch they were fixing bugs, the patch after they were doing some class tweeks. I don't know what tweeks are specifically, but usually when they are revamping skills from the ground up or changing their core function like when they turned inferno from a half-decent PBAOE into a completely worthless self-buff that a potion could do instead of a skill slot, they call that stuff class adjustments, major re-balancing, class reviews and so on. Tweeks to me say the functionality isn't going to change, but the numbers might be fudged a bit for better or maybe for worse. It isn't very committed language.

MaxwellC · October 2015

UltimaJoe777 wrote: »

Don't want to be rude but this is clearly a case of learn 2 play. You want all (or almost all) DK skills to get serious buffs? That means you have yet to learn how to play as a DK.

I'm guessing you forget that almost all our entire skills have been nerf'd. It isn't a learn to play, we just have a lot of nerf'd skills in-comparison to any class out at this moment, we're expected to be a fortress yet we've lost our stam regen upon blocking, heavy armor has horrible passives too.
Here's a genius's quote @Jules who gave a through analysis regarding why DKs need a buff.

Jules wrote: »

We get it, ZOS. You really want to punish DK's for the permastandard permabats permatalons murder-slaughter-faceroll-a-thon. But I'm pretty sure with this patch, you took it a bit far. In case you hadn’t noticed, DK’s feel very sub-standard these days.

In general, the class feels as if it has been gutted so many times that it is simply a shadow of its former self. With the release of 2.1 and the many changes that accompanied it, DK’s were forever changed. It is simply a necessity that the class be reviewed as far as its relevance in Cyrodiil and its comparative balance to other classes.

HOW DK'S STACK UP:
For the majority of the game, DK's have been forced to substitute their class weaknesses with weapon tree abilities. However with the many changes to abilities, regen and skills this patch, DK's are not able to run the same weapons they once were and still receive the same results. It's important to keep in mind that all of these class weakness work in conjuncture with one another.

1. LACK OF CLASS MOBILITY:
In a world where if you stand still, you die, the lack of mobility of the DK class has to be the largest weakness.

DK's are the only class without a reliable gap closer. No, sorry, chains doesn't count as it does not have a fixed direction in which it operates. The primary purpose of chains is to pull people to you, however when it is a boss/cc immune person, it will pull you to them. This skill is also historically buggy.

---->Why this didn't matter before: In the patches leading up to this one, DK's made up for this lack of a gap closer with invasion, off the sword/board weapon tree. Sword/Board had incredibly good synergy with DK because not only the use of the gap closer, but I'll cover that more in a sec.

---->Why it matters now: Due to the stamina regeneration while blocking nerf, it is no longer very adventitious for DK's to run Sword/Board. This removes their gap closer and weakens the class tremendously.

DK's have no escape.

---->Why this didn't matter before: DK's made up for their lack of escape with the use of mist form.

---->Why it matters now: Mist form is now a weak escape as it is targetable without tab target and it displays an alliance indicator plainly above your head.

2. NO RANGE:
All of the damage that DK's can do aside from obsidian shard is within an ~5-8m melee range.
---->Why this didn't matter before: "In-your-face" DK worked very well with sword and board as a staple of the DK build. DK's were able to comfortably be in melee range, do some damage and tank some damage. Many DK's ran dual S&B. However, some DK's made up for their lack of class range with crushing shock if preferred. They were able to run destro as an off because their strong class heal was preferred over resto heals.

---->Why it matters now: Due to the stamina regeneration nerfs to block, DK's are unable to tank damage in the same way they once were. To some this is a good thing, and it's debatable. However the issue is that tanking damage while doing damage was the strength of the Dragonknight class. If you need proof, simply look at the skill lines and passives of Ardent Flame and Draconic Power. Both trees contribute to the image of a tanky DD. The blocking nerf of this patch hit everyone hard, but no where near as hard as it DK's. DK's are now put into a unique and sh-tty position. They need to be within ~8m to do any real damage, but they cannot withstand the enemy damage of melee range for very long due to the nerfs to block.

Aside from that, DK's can no longer rely on their class self-heal as it is incredibly weak. This pretty much means a default resto as an off bar for heals. This limits their ability to use destro for the ranged ability of crushing shock. A destro/resto set up is in fact possible, but with dual wield still giving the most spell damage as far as weapons (GO FIGURE), dk's are in need of the damage and generally choose dual wield.

((Sidebar: Truth be told, the fact that dual wield gives spell damage at all is completely nonsensical. This means that magicka users who desire max spell damage (*which is of course STILL so much harder to stack than weapon damage*) are pidgeonholed into equipping a weapon for which they do not receive advantages from most of the passives.))

3. LACK OF DAMAGE:
DK's have always been more of a sustain than a high burst damage class. Their dots are applied, tick away and overall accumulate to incredible damage over time results (hence, dot).

DK is negated by too many things. DK's are the kings of DOT abilities. There is engulfing flames, burning embers, talons, eruption, standard, ect. The majority of our damage abilities in one form or another have a DOT function. All of this damage is negated/lessened by not only the champion system (Thick Skinned), but also Dark Cloak, and purge.

---->Why this didn't matter before: People didn't permacloak because it was broken back then. DK's sustained the damage of their enemies long enough (through the use of S&B/block) to chip away at their health regardless of the lack of effectiveness of dots.

---->Why it matters now: Cloak was buffed/fixed/whatever this patch. Permacloaking is possible and done often. This means DK dots are all but useless in this situation. DK's can also not block into oblivion and out-sustain their opponents.

Dk's are the only class without an execute. Does anything else need to even be said? Sorcs have Mages wrath, Temps have Radiant Destruction, and NB's have Killers Blade/Impale. HELL- NB's have an execute that has both a stamina and magicka morph. DK's don't even have 1 execute. Can I get a WTF?

5. LACK OF STAMINA VARIETY:
DK's synergize best with magicka.
This is not debatable. All of the class skills-- and especially all of the strong ones (talons, whip, fossilize, igneous shield) are all magicka skills for both morphs. The only DK stam abilities are the stamina morph of the two ardent flame dots. There is next to no synergy with any DK stam build aside from "Helping Hands" passive off Earthen Heart tree that gives back 5% stam and the dots.

A Stam DK is essentially just a weapon-based offense. #giveusstaminawhip
Magicka/Stamina Imbalances Because DK synergize best with magicka, this gives them the distinct privilege of all of the above disadvantages, in addition to being completely out damaged by stam users. Spell damage cannot be stacked to the same height as weapon damage, period. Even with the much needed changes to the mundus stones, the Molag Kena 1 piece, and continuous attack (which should have always been that way to begin with) spell damage is still not offered through 5 piece light armor, or the Master's Weapons and is still not as strong as weapon.

Magicka once had the shield/healing advantage over stam that justified this imbalance between raw damage. With the nerf to shields/heals and the addition of vigor, stam builds are stronger in almost every possible way. And without a truly viable DK *class* stam build available, this again leaves DK's at a sad fork in the road.

All in all, this has been a long and desperate rambling of a DK looking for ZOS to understand exactly the position they have put us in. You have fundamentally changed the way that DK is played this patch and you have dismantled the core of the class because of this. Yes, the class is still playable. Yes, it is still functional in groups and yes, you can still kill people. But the purpose of this post is to prove that you have to try twice as hard to achieve half the results. The class cannot thrive if it remains this way.

I applaud the decision to revert to old talons, but am still in disbelief that it was ever intended to begin with. Please reconsider and rethink new options for DK before we see only 3 classes in Cyrodiil.

Sincerely,
Jules

MaxwellC · October 2015

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Thanks to everyone for providing your feedback, and to @Jules for a well-written list of concerns and proposed solutions; we’ve passed this thread along to the Dev team to review. In general, we will be focusing on fixing outstanding ability bugs in the next major update, in addition to supporting some new systems. Larger balance and ability improvements for Dragonknights and the other classes are planned for early next year.

@AhPook_Is_Here I just took this quote of her that way as it seems like a silver lining for us DKs

Minnesinger · October 2015

Why be so modest when you can redesign the DK class? Your buffs are noteworthy and deeply needed.

UltimaJoe777 · October 2015

MaxwellCrystal wrote: »

UltimaJoe777 wrote: »

Don't want to be rude but this is clearly a case of learn 2 play. You want all (or almost all) DK skills to get serious buffs? That means you have yet to learn how to play as a DK.

I'm guessing you forget that almost all our entire skills have been nerf'd. It isn't a learn to play, we just have a lot of nerf'd skills in-comparison to any class out at this moment, we're expected to be a fortress yet we've lost our stam regen upon blocking, heavy armor has horrible passives too.
Here's a genius's quote @Jules who gave a through analysis regarding why DKs need a buff.

Jules wrote: »

We get it, ZOS. You really want to punish DK's for the permastandard permabats permatalons murder-slaughter-faceroll-a-thon. But I'm pretty sure with this patch, you took it a bit far. In case you hadn’t noticed, DK’s feel very sub-standard these days.

In general, the class feels as if it has been gutted so many times that it is simply a shadow of its former self. With the release of 2.1 and the many changes that accompanied it, DK’s were forever changed. It is simply a necessity that the class be reviewed as far as its relevance in Cyrodiil and its comparative balance to other classes.

HOW DK'S STACK UP:
For the majority of the game, DK's have been forced to substitute their class weaknesses with weapon tree abilities. However with the many changes to abilities, regen and skills this patch, DK's are not able to run the same weapons they once were and still receive the same results. It's important to keep in mind that all of these class weakness work in conjuncture with one another.

1. LACK OF CLASS MOBILITY:
In a world where if you stand still, you die, the lack of mobility of the DK class has to be the largest weakness.

DK's are the only class without a reliable gap closer. No, sorry, chains doesn't count as it does not have a fixed direction in which it operates. The primary purpose of chains is to pull people to you, however when it is a boss/cc immune person, it will pull you to them. This skill is also historically buggy.

---->Why this didn't matter before: In the patches leading up to this one, DK's made up for this lack of a gap closer with invasion, off the sword/board weapon tree. Sword/Board had incredibly good synergy with DK because not only the use of the gap closer, but I'll cover that more in a sec.

---->Why it matters now: Due to the stamina regeneration while blocking nerf, it is no longer very adventitious for DK's to run Sword/Board. This removes their gap closer and weakens the class tremendously.

DK's have no escape.

---->Why this didn't matter before: DK's made up for their lack of escape with the use of mist form.

---->Why it matters now: Mist form is now a weak escape as it is targetable without tab target and it displays an alliance indicator plainly above your head.

2. NO RANGE:
All of the damage that DK's can do aside from obsidian shard is within an ~5-8m melee range.
---->Why this didn't matter before: "In-your-face" DK worked very well with sword and board as a staple of the DK build. DK's were able to comfortably be in melee range, do some damage and tank some damage. Many DK's ran dual S&B. However, some DK's made up for their lack of class range with crushing shock if preferred. They were able to run destro as an off because their strong class heal was preferred over resto heals.

---->Why it matters now: Due to the stamina regeneration nerfs to block, DK's are unable to tank damage in the same way they once were. To some this is a good thing, and it's debatable. However the issue is that tanking damage while doing damage was the strength of the Dragonknight class. If you need proof, simply look at the skill lines and passives of Ardent Flame and Draconic Power. Both trees contribute to the image of a tanky DD. The blocking nerf of this patch hit everyone hard, but no where near as hard as it DK's. DK's are now put into a unique and sh-tty position. They need to be within ~8m to do any real damage, but they cannot withstand the enemy damage of melee range for very long due to the nerfs to block.

Aside from that, DK's can no longer rely on their class self-heal as it is incredibly weak. This pretty much means a default resto as an off bar for heals. This limits their ability to use destro for the ranged ability of crushing shock. A destro/resto set up is in fact possible, but with dual wield still giving the most spell damage as far as weapons (GO FIGURE), dk's are in need of the damage and generally choose dual wield.

((Sidebar: Truth be told, the fact that dual wield gives spell damage at all is completely nonsensical. This means that magicka users who desire max spell damage (*which is of course STILL so much harder to stack than weapon damage*) are pidgeonholed into equipping a weapon for which they do not receive advantages from most of the passives.))

3. LACK OF DAMAGE:
DK's have always been more of a sustain than a high burst damage class. Their dots are applied, tick away and overall accumulate to incredible damage over time results (hence, dot).

DK is negated by too many things. DK's are the kings of DOT abilities. There is engulfing flames, burning embers, talons, eruption, standard, ect. The majority of our damage abilities in one form or another have a DOT function. All of this damage is negated/lessened by not only the champion system (Thick Skinned), but also Dark Cloak, and purge.

---->Why this didn't matter before: People didn't permacloak because it was broken back then. DK's sustained the damage of their enemies long enough (through the use of S&B/block) to chip away at their health regardless of the lack of effectiveness of dots.

---->Why it matters now: Cloak was buffed/fixed/whatever this patch. Permacloaking is possible and done often. This means DK dots are all but useless in this situation. DK's can also not block into oblivion and out-sustain their opponents.

Dk's are the only class without an execute. Does anything else need to even be said? Sorcs have Mages wrath, Temps have Radiant Destruction, and NB's have Killers Blade/Impale. HELL- NB's have an execute that has both a stamina and magicka morph. DK's don't even have 1 execute. Can I get a WTF?

5. LACK OF STAMINA VARIETY:
DK's synergize best with magicka.
This is not debatable. All of the class skills-- and especially all of the strong ones (talons, whip, fossilize, igneous shield) are all magicka skills for both morphs. The only DK stam abilities are the stamina morph of the two ardent flame dots. There is next to no synergy with any DK stam build aside from "Helping Hands" passive off Earthen Heart tree that gives back 5% stam and the dots.

A Stam DK is essentially just a weapon-based offense. #giveusstaminawhip
Magicka/Stamina Imbalances Because DK synergize best with magicka, this gives them the distinct privilege of all of the above disadvantages, in addition to being completely out damaged by stam users. Spell damage cannot be stacked to the same height as weapon damage, period. Even with the much needed changes to the mundus stones, the Molag Kena 1 piece, and continuous attack (which should have always been that way to begin with) spell damage is still not offered through 5 piece light armor, or the Master's Weapons and is still not as strong as weapon.

Magicka once had the shield/healing advantage over stam that justified this imbalance between raw damage. With the nerf to shields/heals and the addition of vigor, stam builds are stronger in almost every possible way. And without a truly viable DK *class* stam build available, this again leaves DK's at a sad fork in the road.

All in all, this has been a long and desperate rambling of a DK looking for ZOS to understand exactly the position they have put us in. You have fundamentally changed the way that DK is played this patch and you have dismantled the core of the class because of this. Yes, the class is still playable. Yes, it is still functional in groups and yes, you can still kill people. But the purpose of this post is to prove that you have to try twice as hard to achieve half the results. The class cannot thrive if it remains this way.

I applaud the decision to revert to old talons, but am still in disbelief that it was ever intended to begin with. Please reconsider and rethink new options for DK before we see only 3 classes in Cyrodiil.

Sincerely,
Jules

And yet I don't have any such trouble on my DK. Why is that I wonder?

dlepi24 · October 2015

I'm not sure if it really needs a buff. I haven't really been having many issues with my build. However, knowing what was coming, I changed my build up before the patch anyways so it hasn't affected me as much as others. The only thing that has somewhat changed for me is roll dodging. I've just had to change it a bit and raise my resistances so I can just face tank a lot more damage and save my rolls for the heavy hitting attacks. I now have two builds that I'm changing back and forth every few days trying to perfect them but they've both been doing fine. The way I play DK fits me well. I don't use the class abilities as much for damage as I do for being able to absorb/reflect damage as I use my weapon abilities to deal my damage. The passives seem to synergize with my builds really well. Especially battle roar. That alone would be enough for me to play DK. I think a lot of DK's just have to change their builds up. The 1.5/1.6 builds aren't going to work as well this patch.

Personofsecrets · October 2015

extended chains, the best morph, scaling off of stamina? GOD NO

Personofsecrets · October 2015

Molten Whip IS THE major DPS spamable ability for magic DK. No stamina DK will ever use this. Huge nerf.

Personofsecrets · October 2015

The only thing that will make molten weapons interesting again is not having to do a fully charged heavy. Honestly, good riddance to the skill. The developers need to find out that nobody wants to spend 2 seconds for a fully charged heavy attack in order to proc anything.

dlepi24 · October 2015

Personofsecrets wrote: »

The only thing that will make molten weapons interesting again is not having to do a fully charged heavy. Honestly, good riddance to the skill. The developers need to find out that nobody wants to spend 2 seconds for a fully charged heavy attack in order to proc anything.

People should mess with molten weapons and corrosive armor heavy attacks. Deals quite a bit of damage with the correct build.

remilafo · October 2015

this thread is crazy, DK's are totally still the reigning top dps in the game. what the hell is a matter with you.

or do i need to direct you to the thread where players are flaunting their dps on first boss vWGT with dps ranging from 27K-43K ... oh and btw the vast majority of them are DK..

AhPook_Is_Here · October 2015

MaxwellCrystal wrote: »

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Thanks to everyone for providing your feedback, and to @Jules for a well-written list of concerns and proposed solutions; we’ve passed this thread along to the Dev team to review. In general, we will be focusing on fixing outstanding ability bugs in the next major update, in addition to supporting some new systems. Larger balance and ability improvements for Dragonknights and the other classes are planned for early next year.

@AhPook_Is_Here I just took this quote of her that way as it seems like a silver lining for us DKs

Yep, saw that one, and then she conditionalized it some more because the lining was too shiny.

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

To be clear, we don't have plans to completely rebalance and rework classes like we did back in Update 6. The next update will contain mainly bug fixes, and the update after that will have adjustments and tweaks to the classes.

dlepi24 · October 2015

remilafo wrote: »

this thread is crazy, DK's are totally still the reigning top dps in the game. what the hell is a matter with you.

or do i need to direct you to the thread where players are flaunting their dps on first boss vWGT with dps ranging from 27K-43K ... oh and btw the vast majority of them are DK..

To be fair, it's just one build. It's Dunmer Magic DK's that would get facerolled in PvP if they stepped foot into Cyrodiil.

Forestd16b14_ESO · October 2015

/drinks

Hmm ah smell DK buffs on the horizon. Bright thing in the future ... bright red and orange fires in the future.....

lathbury · October 2015

remilafo wrote: »

this thread is crazy, DK's are totally still the reigning top dps in the game. what the hell is a matter with you.

or do i need to direct you to the thread where players are flaunting their dps on first boss vWGT with dps ranging from 27K-43K ... oh and btw the vast majority of them are DK..

this

Rook_Master · October 2015

Yep, DK was just fine before nerfs. Bring back 1.0 DK!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jyZsIDSSGV4

remilafo · October 2015

dlepi24 wrote: »

remilafo wrote: »

this thread is crazy, DK's are totally still the reigning top dps in the game. what the hell is a matter with you.

or do i need to direct you to the thread where players are flaunting their dps on first boss vWGT with dps ranging from 27K-43K ... oh and btw the vast majority of them are DK..

To be fair, it's just one build. It's Dunmer Magic DK's that would get facerolled in PvP if they stepped foot into Cyrodiil.

What? so let me get this straight you also want DK's to dominate pvp also? im sure a few good pvp dk's could chime in on this one.

And dks have the best defensive skill line in the game also.

i going to leave this thread blaming CP's ... because i feel like you are comparing yourself to other players that just have alot more CP than you. It's natural to feel inferior because well you are.

And i must remind you pvp is "THE PLACE" where you are going to see the difference in power with CP, there is a very valid reason why the community has been begging for a NON-CP campaign.

In that dps flaunting thread i mentioned that top DK dps whom posted he's screenies of 43K dps also have 877 Cp.. so CP's Matter.... alot

dlepi24 · October 2015

remilafo wrote: »

dlepi24 wrote: »

remilafo wrote: »

this thread is crazy, DK's are totally still the reigning top dps in the game. what the hell is a matter with you.

or do i need to direct you to the thread where players are flaunting their dps on first boss vWGT with dps ranging from 27K-43K ... oh and btw the vast majority of them are DK..

To be fair, it's just one build. It's Dunmer Magic DK's that would get facerolled in PvP if they stepped foot into Cyrodiil.

What? so let me get this straight you also want DK's to dominate pvp also? im sure a few good pvp dk's could chime in on this one.

And dks have the best defensive skill line in the game also.

i going to leave this thread blaming CP's ... because i feel like you are comparing yourself to other players that just have alot more CP than you. It's natural to feel inferior because well you are.

And i must remind you pvp is "THE PLACE" where you are going to see the difference in power with CP, there is a very valid reason why the community has been begging for a NON-CP campaign.

In that dps flaunting thread i mentioned that top DK dps whom posted he's screenies of 43K dps also have 877 Cp.. so CP's Matter.... alot

@remilafo

Oh, sorry. Didn't realize you couldn't read. Let me quote something I said previously in this thread...

dlepi24 wrote: »

I'm not sure if it really needs a buff. I haven't really been having many issues with my build. However, knowing what was coming, I changed my build up before the patch anyways so it hasn't affected me as much as others....I think a lot of DK's just have to change their builds up. The 1.5/1.6 builds aren't going to work as well this patch.

SneaK · October 2015

I really hate the idea of turning DK abilities into Stamina based abilities. Magicka DKs are the one's that need love. You can already build a strong Stamina DK, making those changes will only cripple Magicka DKs even more.