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The big lesson Matt Firor learned
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Elsonso✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭nimander99 wrote: »I miss the road ahead. I feel like ZOS has become so insular from it's player base.
The reason for this goes something like this...
Dev: "Hey guys check out this cool Spellcrafting system we're working on"
Player: "When! when! when!"
Dev: "We hope Soon(TM) but no promises"
*Time goes buy eventually becoming Soon(TM)
Player: "WHERE IS SPELL CRAFTING?!? YOU PROMISED!!! I'M SUING AND FLAMING SOCIAL MEDIA EVERYWHERE I QUIT!!!"
Dev: /stuck
Part of the reason that people 'yell' is that they hear something, then nothing... nothing... nothing... nothing... nothing... and finally they mention in passing that it is shelved. We do not even know if HALF of that stuff they show before ESO Live is coming, ever.
If ZOS had the presence on their own forum, which they do not have, the community would grumble about late, but they would know about it directly, and in a somewhat timely manner. Instead, the players own the forum conversations and we are pretty much free range cattle. The community managers are just here to keep the restless cattle from hurting each other.XBox EU/NA:@ElsonsoJannus
PC NA/EU: @Elsonso
PSN NA/EU: @ElsonsoJannus
Total in-game hours: 11321
X/Twitter: ElsonsoJannus5 -
rb2001✭✭✭✭Matt Firor does have a long list of accomplishments in the gaming industry, but for some reason he forgot them all when designing ESO; for example, the DAOC had underwater exploration and ESO doesn't?
So 14 years later he helps designs a game that is two steps backwards in design features?
The ESO game play mechanics will never make sense to me and adds nothing new (to the player) that other 14 years old games have already provided!
It doesn't matter how well the quests are written, the quality of the music, or the graphics, the sustainability of a game is solely dependent on game play mechanics, rewards verse difficulty, and end game content; without the later three a game will not profit in the competitive world of MMOs and maintain a large player base.
The fact that the level cap system has changed two times in a year indicates to me that the game play mechanics, rewards verse difficulty, and end game content wasn't fully developed by launch time. The fact that the game balance is changed weekly indicates to me that the developers either don't understand the basic concept of game mechanics, don't understand the dependencies within their game code, or both.
So why do I still play ESO? I like the game community, but that's not enough to stop me from jumping ship when the next shiny play toy comes along.
We seem to have some similar thoughts.
I love ESO, and it has all of those things you mentioned head and shoulders above other MMO, but I keep mentioning that I would really like to see -gameplay- expansion, rather than adding more quests, areas, mobs to kill.
I would like to see new ways to interact with the game world, such as underwater exploration, new types of intractables (other than resource gathering); things like being able to pick up and throw things, touch the game world, physics on objects, hitting pots with your weapon, etc (Zelda has all of this and more).
I appreciate the recent world expansion, and I think IC is some of the best content in the game, personally (and I'm not really a PVPer), but I really want to see more ways to touch the world than just press E to do something.3 -
MikeB✭✭✭✭✭Communication is key to a happy community, even if the community doesnt like what you're saying if you at least give them something they will be content. Hiding from "haters" by not communication with your player base at all just makes it so your happy players become disgruntled and unhappy fast. So you are just turning you otherwise content player into someone that wont stick around long because they cant get a response to any of their questions. aka, me and my friends.
I've been interested in this game since PC release and thought on it for a week when it was released on console before I bought it and talked one of my friends into buying it. Since then he cant wait for Fallout 4 to be released so he can move on to a game that isnt riddled with game breaking, enjoyment sucking bugs. The guild banks were annoying before but now you cant even use them on console. No text chat on console is a huge mistake, no minimap, no search option in the guild stores, no useable LFG function, glaring class imbalances, passives and spells/abilities that still either dont work or dont work as intended(Blood magic passive doesnt work with Encase). Those are just a very small portion of the issues with this game.
TV stones are a good idea but horrible implementation, when a PvE player goes into IC and spends 1-2+ hours farming on "his side" of the sewers just to get ganked on a "safe" ledge outside a door, aka no way up on it other than the door you walk through or so you believe, by a Sorc using streak (only class that can do this) he cancels his ESO plus and refuses to spend another dollar on ESO until the obvious bugs, glitches and exploits are fixed, which will most likely be never.2 -
7788b14_ESO✭✭✭I like this game at it's heart and do log in to play from time to time. But I still have no interest in the VR system so really can't get into the game past 50.
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tordr86b16_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭Matt Firor might have 14 years experience but ESO is an perfect example that even with that much "experience" you keep doing the same old mistakes.3 -
Xendyn✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭I've been interested in this game since PC release and thought on it for a week when it was released on console before I bought it and talked one of my friends into buying it. Since then he cant wait for Fallout 4 to be released so he can move on to a game that isnt riddled with game breaking, enjoyment sucking bugs.
lmao
I won't even get Fallout 4 until they have fixed all the bugs and glitches that come out with it.
Bethesda is known for releasing buggy games, so if that's your hope better prepare for disappointment.
Lag is ruinin' my 'mershun!
A society grows great when old men plant trees whose shade they know they shall never sit in.
There is only one good, knowledge, and one evil, ignorance - Socrates
Member of the Old Guard, keepers of the game's history
PC/NA0 -
JD2013✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I've been interested in this game since PC release and thought on it for a week when it was released on console before I bought it and talked one of my friends into buying it. Since then he cant wait for Fallout 4 to be released so he can move on to a game that isnt riddled with game breaking, enjoyment sucking bugs.
lmao
I won't even get Fallout 4 until they have fixed all the bugs and glitches that come out with it.
Bethesda is known for releasing buggy games, so if that's your hope better prepare for disappointment.
Remember Skyrim on PS3? *shudder*
It still haunts me in my dreams.Sweetrolls for all!
Christophe Mottierre - Breton Templar with his own whole darn estate! Templar Houses are so 2015. EU DC
PC Beta Tester January 2014
Elder of The Black
Order of Sithis
The Runners
@TamrielTraverse - For Tamriel related Twitter shenanigans!
https://tamrieltraveller.wordpress.com/
Crafting bag OP! ZOS nerf pls!1 -
Gyudan✭✭✭✭✭
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The B2P announcement came in January, more than one month after this intensive internal beta.“To go those extra four or five months? It was essential. We had the game done in December but we didn’t want to have stupid little problems rear up so we wanted to test it well. So instead of launching we did an intensive internal beta.
Who still thinks this wasn't planned from the beginning?
Edited by Gyudan on September 27, 2015 6:13PMWololo.3 -
Darlgon✭✭✭✭✭
✭I've been interested in this game since PC release and thought on it for a week when it was released on console before I bought it and talked one of my friends into buying it. Since then he cant wait for Fallout 4 to be released so he can move on to a game that isnt riddled with game breaking, enjoyment sucking bugs.
lmao
I won't even get Fallout 4 until they have fixed all the bugs and glitches that come out with it.
Bethesda is known for releasing buggy games, so if that's your hope better prepare for disappointment.
Remember Skyrim on PS3? *shudder*
It still haunts me in my dreams.
Lol.. now that you say that.. I am probably a noob to some TES fans, only got Oblivion and Skyrim six months before I got into the beta and was still not completely done playing Skyrim when ESO launched. I was told, in no uncertain terms, by other guild buddies to "NOT buy Skyrim without Hearthstone".Power level to CP160 in a week:
Where is the end game? You just played it.
Why don't I have 300+ skill points? Because you skipped content along the way.
Where is new content? Sigh.0 -
sagitter✭✭✭✭✭Matt Firor does have a long list of accomplishments in the gaming industry, but for some reason he forgot them all when designing ESO; for example, the DAOC had underwater exploration and ESO doesn't?
So 14 years later he helps designs a game that is two steps backwards in design features?
The ESO game play mechanics will never make sense to me and adds nothing new (to the player) that other 14 years old games have already provided!
It doesn't matter how well the quests are written, the quality of the music, or the graphics, the sustainability of a game is solely dependent on game play mechanics, rewards verse difficulty, and end game content; without the later three a game will not profit in the competitive world of MMOs and maintain a large player base.
The fact that the level cap system has changed two times in a year indicates to me that the game play mechanics, rewards verse difficulty, and end game content wasn't fully developed by launch time. The fact that the game balance is changed weekly indicates to me that the developers either don't understand the basic concept of game mechanics, don't understand the dependencies within their game code, or both.
So why do I still play ESO? I like the game community, but that's not enough to stop me from jumping ship when the next shiny play toy comes along.
Daoc introduced underwater content after 2-3 years of its release with the expansion (today we call it dlc) of trial of Atlantis. An mmo can t be complete at release for pure marketing reason, especially if it is monthly pay or b2p with Dlc , wow it s another example. Keep money flowing with Dlc over the time.0 -
Funkopotamus✭✭✭✭✭
There is NO reason for ANY MMO to still have those simple to fix bugs going on 5, five, F-I-V-E! MOnths after release!Communication is key to a happy community, even if the community doesnt like what you're saying if you at least give them something they will be content. Hiding from "haters" by not communication with your player base at all just makes it so your happy players become disgruntled and unhappy fast. So you are just turning you otherwise content player into someone that wont stick around long because they cant get a response to any of their questions. aka, me and my friends.
I've been interested in this game since PC release and thought on it for a week when it was released on console before I bought it and talked one of my friends into buying it. Since then he cant wait for Fallout 4 to be released so he can move on to a game that isnt riddled with game breaking, enjoyment sucking bugs. The guild banks were annoying before but now you cant even use them on console. No text chat on console is a huge mistake, no minimap, no search option in the guild stores, no useable LFG function, glaring class imbalances, passives and spells/abilities that still either dont work or dont work as intended(Blood magic passive doesnt work with Encase). Those are just a very small portion of the issues with this game.
.
I am sorry, but it is disgusting. I can understand balance issues sure.. Any MMO will always have "Balance" issues with each update/change to levels and gear...
What MMO's do not have are simple bugs that are never addressed. I have never seen a company just flat ignore simple bugs and then think that adding in new levels and gear to the game is a great idea.
How are ZOS ever going to be able to move forward in a positive position when they are just piling garbage on top of garbage! ZOS needs to clean this game up! Fix the bugs before they go adding more headaches/things that are going to need "Fixes"
I dunno man.. It just seems like the ship sailed without the crew sometimes.Edited by Funkopotamus on September 27, 2015 6:32PMAnything useful that players are wanting added into the game all fall under the category of "Yer ruinin my 'mersion!" Sallington3 -
Yolokin_Swagonborn✭✭✭✭✭
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-Mat Firor SOURCE" Charging a flat monthly (or subscription) fee means that we will offer players the game we set out to make, and the one that fans want to play. Going with any other model meant that we would have to make sacrifices and changes we weren't willing to make."
I wonder what lesson he learned from that.3 -
Funkopotamus✭✭✭✭✭Yolokin_Swagonborn wrote: »
-Mat Firor SOURCE" Charging a flat monthly (or subscription) fee means that we will offer players the game we set out to make, and the one that fans want to play. Going with any other model meant that we would have to make sacrifices and changes we weren't willing to make."
I wonder what lesson he learned from that.
I wonder if those "Sacrifices" were console text chat, The original Console UI that was scrapped, or the lack of content?
Because if so, then he was correct. lol.Anything useful that players are wanting added into the game all fall under the category of "Yer ruinin my 'mersion!" Sallington1 -
RazielSR✭✭✭✭✭And you people still playing this. Fine,let the devs laugh at your face again and again.1 -
Darlgon✭✭✭✭✭
✭Yolokin_Swagonborn wrote: »
-Mat Firor SOURCE" Charging a flat monthly (or subscription) fee means that we will offer players the game we set out to make, and the one that fans want to play. Going with any other model meant that we would have to make sacrifices and changes we weren't willing to make."
I wonder what lesson he learned from that.
Not to make ANY solid promises at press conferences or gaming conventions. Now, he always includes the "this may change during development".Power level to CP160 in a week:
Where is the end game? You just played it.
Why don't I have 300+ skill points? Because you skipped content along the way.
Where is new content? Sigh.0 -
Darlgon✭✭✭✭✭
✭Funkopotamus wrote: »
There is NO reason for ANY MMO to still have those simple to fix bugs going on 5, five, F-I-V-E! MOnths after release!Communication is key to a happy community, even if the community doesnt like what you're saying if you at least give them something they will be content. Hiding from "haters" by not communication with your player base at all just makes it so your happy players become disgruntled and unhappy fast. So you are just turning you otherwise content player into someone that wont stick around long because they cant get a response to any of their questions. aka, me and my friends.
I've been interested in this game since PC release and thought on it for a week when it was released on console before I bought it and talked one of my friends into buying it. Since then he cant wait for Fallout 4 to be released so he can move on to a game that isnt riddled with game breaking, enjoyment sucking bugs. The guild banks were annoying before but now you cant even use them on console. No text chat on console is a huge mistake, no minimap, no search option in the guild stores, no useable LFG function, glaring class imbalances, passives and spells/abilities that still either dont work or dont work as intended(Blood magic passive doesnt work with Encase). Those are just a very small portion of the issues with this game.
.
I am sorry, but it is disgusting. I can understand balance issues sure.. Any MMO will always have "Balance" issues with each update/change to levels and gear...
What MMO's do not have are simple bugs that are never addressed. I have never seen a company just flat ignore simple bugs and then think that adding in new levels and gear to the game is a great idea.
How are ZOS ever going to be able to move forward in a positive position when they are just piling garbage on top of garbage! ZOS needs to clean this game up! Fix the bugs before they go adding more headaches/things that are going to need "Fixes"
I dunno man.. It just seems like the ship sailed without the crew sometimes.
LOL.. five months.. FIVE months.. Noob.
Try 17 months, not counting Beta testing. As another posted out in another thread, what players perceive as simple may not be as simple to the coders.
I SURE dont want to hear what finally killed Lotro for me, "We will not have any new expansions for the next year. We will spend it all fixing bugs that we have neglected for the past five years."Power level to CP160 in a week:
Where is the end game? You just played it.
Why don't I have 300+ skill points? Because you skipped content along the way.
Where is new content? Sigh.0 -
sadownik✭✭✭✭✭
✭nikolaj.lemcheb16_ESO wrote: »nikolaj.lemcheb16_ESO wrote: »Why should Matt Firor have to learn this? He has produced at least one MMO already - a very acclaimed one too - Dark Age of Camelot. Surely he already know these things?
He wasn't the lead developer in DaoC, he was their pvp developer. He lead the development of new frontier which where a failure until they changed the gameplay into almost exactly what we see in Cyrodiil today and he lead the design of pvp warfare in warhammer online which were also a failure because of the way it forced people to pve grind to achieve pvp goals (and the best way to win for each side where to avoid each others armies and take keeps *sigh*).
So seeing that until players react you don't see changes is nothing new.
When his team went to do warhammer, the new dev team on DaoC turned the game around in less than 4 months and revitalized it fixing most of the problems that had been stubbornly ignored for years by the old dev team.
this is why we don't get feedback,fixes,etc. sounds like a very pompous guy
Actually he has to get credit for having changed. See this game really does adapt and change a LOT faster than most mmos I have played. They still make the same mistakes and have to react to player behavior. BUT they really do that and fix stuff. His teams still ignore player feedback during development but they do react to how people receive content very fast.
The overall changes to how abilities and stats works that we got this winter really fixed most of the problems we had so far. Yes it created new problems but they were far less problematic than what we had before. The champ system while being wonderful in its idea lacked in how it worked out (the curve for how bonuses progress in relation to the number of points is the main reason for its failure) but they know this and consider fixes.
The only failure they haven't fixed at all and probably never will is Craglorn. Forced grouping outside of dungeons or raids is a thing of the past in the mmo world and Craglorn showed quite well what happens if you try. But fixing craglorn at this stage is probably a waste of money so it will stay the wasteland it is.
IC is also going to be a wasteland sadly. Too many mobs for small scale pvp, no objectives for large scale pvp and no reason to pve there when Orsinium is released. I hope they return to it in 6 months or so and change it into something worthwhile but again it might be that there is no money in doing that.
Very fast? Some time ago, in GW2 after a huge patch with lots of added changes 4h into launch i saw a system message - "new version of client is available, please log off and log in again". No patch day drama, no "we have the fix but we are waiting for the next incremental patch", just log off and download 40mb of patch. Thats very fast.
And praising Z. for doing something that shouldn't be necessairy in the first place seems to optimistic to my taste.0 -
Funkopotamus✭✭✭✭✭Funkopotamus wrote: »
There is NO reason for ANY MMO to still have those simple to fix bugs going on 5, five, F-I-V-E! MOnths after release!Communication is key to a happy community, even if the community doesnt like what you're saying if you at least give them something they will be content. Hiding from "haters" by not communication with your player base at all just makes it so your happy players become disgruntled and unhappy fast. So you are just turning you otherwise content player into someone that wont stick around long because they cant get a response to any of their questions. aka, me and my friends.
I've been interested in this game since PC release and thought on it for a week when it was released on console before I bought it and talked one of my friends into buying it. Since then he cant wait for Fallout 4 to be released so he can move on to a game that isnt riddled with game breaking, enjoyment sucking bugs. The guild banks were annoying before but now you cant even use them on console. No text chat on console is a huge mistake, no minimap, no search option in the guild stores, no useable LFG function, glaring class imbalances, passives and spells/abilities that still either dont work or dont work as intended(Blood magic passive doesnt work with Encase). Those are just a very small portion of the issues with this game.
.
I am sorry, but it is disgusting. I can understand balance issues sure.. Any MMO will always have "Balance" issues with each update/change to levels and gear...
What MMO's do not have are simple bugs that are never addressed. I have never seen a company just flat ignore simple bugs and then think that adding in new levels and gear to the game is a great idea.
How are ZOS ever going to be able to move forward in a positive position when they are just piling garbage on top of garbage! ZOS needs to clean this game up! Fix the bugs before they go adding more headaches/things that are going to need "Fixes"
I dunno man.. It just seems like the ship sailed without the crew sometimes.
LOL.. five months.. FIVE months.. Noob.
Try 17 months, not counting Beta testing. As another posted out in another thread, what players perceive as simple may not be as simple to the coders.
I SURE dont want to hear what finally killed Lotro for me, "We will not have any new expansions for the next year. We will spend it all fixing bugs that we have neglected for the past five years."
Umm I was here all through the beta.. I played PC... I was simply saying that not fixing these bugs and porting them over to the console just makes the company look.. well..... BAD lol
Its okay though...
on bro...
Keeping on! Anything useful that players are wanting added into the game all fall under the category of "Yer ruinin my 'mersion!" Sallington0 -
sadownik✭✭✭✭✭
✭nimander99 wrote: »I miss the road ahead. I feel like ZOS has become so insular from it's player base.
The reason for this goes something like this...
Dev: "Hey guys check out this cool Spellcrafting system we're working on"
Player: "When! when! when!"
Dev: "We hope Soon(TM) but no promises"
*Time goes buy eventually becoming Soon(TM)
Player: "WHERE IS SPELL CRAFTING?!? YOU PROMISED!!! I'M SUING AND FLAMING SOCIAL MEDIA EVERYWHERE I QUIT!!!"
Dev: /stuck
So you say they can say anything and it doesn't matter at all? If you show elements of system on a serious event, telling quite a lot about it one could think that 12 months later people rightfully can get pretty annoyed. Mind you such PR stuns aim to raise the client base on certain promises.
I would really be careful with constant blaming players - if Z. does not know what they are doing so much that they listen to every John and Tom on forums, its still on Z. side.0 -
DaniAngione✭✭✭✭✭That's true. We used to have "Road Ahead"s. Now we don't.
One might even think we reached the end of the road, lol.1 -
Darlgon✭✭✭✭✭
✭Funkopotamus wrote: »There is NO reason for ANY MMO to still have those simple to fix bugs going on 5, five, F-I-V-E! MOnths after release!Funkopotamus wrote: »Umm I was here all through the beta.. I played PC... I was simply saying that not fixing these bugs and porting them over to the console just makes the company look.. well..... BAD lol
Its okay though...on bro...
Keeping on!
YOU were the one saying five months dude. I took you at your word. Soo. WHO looks bad?Edited by Darlgon on September 27, 2015 11:25PMPower level to CP160 in a week:
Where is the end game? You just played it.
Why don't I have 300+ skill points? Because you skipped content along the way.
Where is new content? Sigh.0 -
Funkopotamus✭✭✭✭✭Funkopotamus wrote: »There is NO reason for ANY MMO to still have those simple to fix bugs going on 5, five, F-I-V-E! MOnths after release!Funkopotamus wrote: »Umm I was here all through the beta.. I played PC... I was simply saying that not fixing these bugs and porting them over to the console just makes the company look.. well..... BAD lol
Its okay though...on bro...
Keeping on!
YOU were the one saying five months dude. I took you at your word. Soo. WHO looks bad?
ZO$ That is who..
I was simply saying that it has been going on five months since a lot of bugs were sent over to a console launch that was CLEARLY not ready to be sent out..
If anything it makes the rumors that ESO was forced out the door early due to the release of Neverwinter. <----That is what is showing as a truth more and more.
All I was saying was it has been five months and they have the same bugs sent out. YOU are the one that was trying to act entitled enough to call someone a "NOOB" for pointing that out. You assumed I was a "New player" That just started playing ESO.
You do know what happens when you ASSUME stuff right?
Edited by Funkopotamus on September 27, 2015 11:34PMAnything useful that players are wanting added into the game all fall under the category of "Yer ruinin my 'mersion!" Sallington0 -
Hiero_Glyph✭✭✭✭✭What ZOS needs to do is give us something to be excited for again. I mean I watch a Digital Extremes dev stream and they show off new content all of the time. Some of the content is coming rigt away (minor update), some is being developed for the next major update, and some is just ideas and concepts they are trying to work on (with no release date). Their Q&A is filtered but they cover major issues even if they don't have a real answer just to let the community know what is going on with the game. They do in-game giveaways for what is the equivalent of crowns, and do promotional items regularly as well. The commnity managers play with the community 3 times a week and they review fan art, emails, etc. All this for a F2P game.
I hope ZOS is being sincere in wanting to improve their communication with the community but I know what good communication looks like and they definitely have a long road ahead of them.Edited by Hiero_Glyph on September 28, 2015 1:19AM0