"We knew it was going to be a problem, but we didn't expect it to happen as quickly as it did"

Violynne · September 2015

J2JMC wrote: »

The title is a quote from a ZOS employee on the most recent ESO LIVE in regards to the Champion System. My question: Why implement this system in the first place if they were aware of the impact it would have on the game design?

I'm not speaking for ZoS, but the answer should be quite obvious: if you capped the game at level 50, gamers would have been upset. Take a look around. Anything that goes wrong is met with rage, with the oft used "pull your head our of your...", which I say is completely rude.

I also think the comment is taken out of context. The CP system isn't "broken", it's that ZoS underestimated how many people would level up so fast as to break the scale.

It's no different than Destiny, which just threw everyone back a few "levels" in order to keep players "aligned". Otherwise, the unbalance would seriously make PvP horrendous (moreso).

And that's where the issue of this game is: PvP. None of the CP issues have anything to do with the base game. It's all about PvP, where players in veteran are getting smoked by players who are now banding together to "zerg" players.

At this stage, there's really no solution that's going to work which won't either A) tick off the players who "earned" their current rank or

alienate those who are trying to do the same in order to compete with those already at the top.

Taking the CP/VR away from players is not a solution.

Therefore, there's only one left: slow the game down and reduce the damage.

It's not a perfect solution, but at this stage in the game, any solution's going to be met with hate.

It would be interesting to see a poll of the number of players willing to have CP/VR reset if ZoS restructures the scaling.

tordr86b16_ESO · September 2015

Violynne wrote: »

J2JMC wrote: »

The title is a quote from a ZOS employee on the most recent ESO LIVE in regards to the Champion System. My question: Why implement this system in the first place if they were aware of the impact it would have on the game design?

I'm not speaking for ZoS, but the answer should be quite obvious: if you capped the game at level 50, gamers would have been upset. Take a look around. Anything that goes wrong is met with rage, with the oft used "pull your head our of your...", which I say is completely rude.

I also think the comment is taken out of context. The CP system isn't "broken", it's that ZoS underestimated how many people would level up so fast as to break the scale.

It's no different than Destiny, which just threw everyone back a few "levels" in order to keep players "aligned". Otherwise, the unbalance would seriously make PvP horrendous (moreso).

And that's where the issue of this game is: PvP. None of the CP issues have anything to do with the base game. It's all about PvP, where players in veteran are getting smoked by players who are now banding together to "zerg" players.

At this stage, there's really no solution that's going to work which won't either A) tick off the players who "earned" their current rank or alienate those who are trying to do the same in order to compete with those already at the top.

Taking the CP/VR away from players is not a solution.

Therefore, there's only one left: slow the game down and reduce the damage.

It's not a perfect solution, but at this stage in the game, any solution's going to be met with hate.

It would be interesting to see a poll of the number of players willing to have CP/VR reset if ZoS restructures the scaling.

The level cap 50 would have been sufficient if there actually was any content to do! That's the core issue with ESO. Why do you think they rushed in veteran ranks so soon to the game? So we had something to grind to keep us "busy". All they have done for the past year now is add some superficial crap content that keeps us grinding - newest spectacle is the IC DLC, another heap of grind.

J2JMC · September 2015

Violynne wrote: »

J2JMC wrote: »

The title is a quote from a ZOS employee on the most recent ESO LIVE in regards to the Champion System. My question: Why implement this system in the first place if they were aware of the impact it would have on the game design?

I'm not speaking for ZoS, but the answer should be quite obvious: if you capped the game at level 50, gamers would have been upset. Take a look around. Anything that goes wrong is met with rage, with the oft used "pull your head our of your...", which I say is completely rude.

I also think the comment is taken out of context. The CP system isn't "broken", it's that ZoS underestimated how many people would level up so fast as to break the scale.

It's no different than Destiny, which just threw everyone back a few "levels" in order to keep players "aligned". Otherwise, the unbalance would seriously make PvP horrendous (moreso).

And that's where the issue of this game is: PvP. None of the CP issues have anything to do with the base game. It's all about PvP, where players in veteran are getting smoked by players who are now banding together to "zerg" players.

At this stage, there's really no solution that's going to work which won't either A) tick off the players who "earned" their current rank or alienate those who are trying to do the same in order to compete with those already at the top.

Taking the CP/VR away from players is not a solution.

Therefore, there's only one left: slow the game down and reduce the damage.

It's not a perfect solution, but at this stage in the game, any solution's going to be met with hate.

It would be interesting to see a poll of the number of players willing to have CP/VR reset if ZoS restructures the scaling.

The game capping at 50 has nothing to do with CP though. If CP was removed the game would be capped at v16.

Once again if "leveling up too fast" is a problem, that means there is a threshold where CP does infact imbalance the game. If that's the case, what are players who join later on supposed to do?

Also pvp is part of the base game despite popular belief

TX12001rwb17_ESO · September 2015

J2JMC wrote: »

slumber_sandb16_ESO wrote: »

Replace all Champion stars with all passives, limit the amount of points you can have so you can only fully fill 2-4 trees at most, balance the passives to not be overly powerful, make them give smaller bonuses but that add up the more you focus on one type. Bam! Now you can create different builds in the champion system with different focuses like a tank spending points into defensive passives and then not having points to spend on damage passives etc.
Focus each tree on a specific thing like physical damage, physical resistance, healing maybe even crafting. Kinda more like it was in Skyrim.

I agree with that the CP system should've been limited to 360 max. That still presents slight power imbalances between players but it's not that bad. I also think CP should've been tied to achievement points instead of xp. That way it's a reward for people who play through multiple aspects of the game(questing, cyrodiil, ic, dungeons, trials etc...) and not just who can grind in their respective v10 areas or cracked wood cave the longest.

limiting it to 360? hmm that wouldn't be half bad but I would be more for actually making CP account wide not what zenimax thinks is account wide, meaning if you have 300CP and give 1 character 250CP you will only have 50CP to share among all your other characters, also I wouldn't tie them to XP points, hell I would prefer if they were buyable with INGAME GOLD, that's easy to get but the price should go up by 1000 gold for each one you buy kind of like the bag upgrades so people with 1 million gold cant buy them all. the first one could cost 1000 gold and the second one would cost 2000 gold then the third 3000 and so on up to 360 while the last ones would cost you 360000 per CP so you would literally need like 10 million gold to buy them all.

sadownik · September 2015

Absolutly @J2JMC . If that quote is accurate it tells me more about Z. management, their approach and their attitude towards clients than anything i have read or heard before.

To add insult to injury - they didnt know problems appear so fast? After players reaching max vet rank in couple of days, which they knew, they still didnt know that players arent stupid, au contraire - we can be cunning as foxes when it comes to our personal gains, that we explore and use every possibility to get ahead of the rest of the playerbase!

That makes me think either they are hevily understaffed, or they must rethink their management.

Draxys · September 2015

hahahahahaha of course!

firstdecan · September 2015

We knew it was going to be a problem, but we didn't expect it to happen as quickly as it did"
- Michael Scott

Didn't they say the same thing after the first few people got to VR10 within a week of PC release?

RizaHawkeye · September 2015

J2JMC wrote: »

The title is a quote from a ZOS employee on the most recent ESO LIVE in regards to the Champion System. My question: Why implement this system in the first place if they were aware of the impact it would have on the game design? Furthermore, why continue to balance the game around this system if they knew it was a problem? ...

~ Snip ~

Personofsecrets wrote: »

Wow, they really said that? Very unprofessional and manipulative of the developers to push through such a system.

Unprofessional, at least.

Wow, I really can't believe they admitted that. It doesn't build confidence in the company.

I've been a paying subscriber since I bought the game. I've not missed a single months payment. And while I come and complain about things sometimes, I kept up the subscription because I want to believe in this game - and the people who make it. (I still haven't forgotten how @ZOS_GinaBruno stayed with us the night the servers were down.

Okay, you get credit for being honest. But I just lost a lot of confidence in your ability to make a game. A lot. Really.

Junkogen · September 2015

Darlgon wrote: »

First off, the bulk of my thoughts are in this thread.

http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/219998/cp-farmers-now-is-the-time-to-hit-it/p1

However,

Junkogen wrote: »

They spent all that time and money creating it. It was getting released no matter what. It's like how they release everything else people think is rushed. It's business. Whether it's good or bad business is up for debate, but they aren't going to keep pushing back release dates or their bosses will pull the plug or fire them. They have to show their bosses production. If they created the champion system only to scrap it or keep pushing it back their bosses would be furious.

Yeah, maybe it isnt this life and death, but, what you say here is wrong. If Toyota put out a Camry, knowing the brakes would sometimes turn themselves on without the driver doing anything, the people who knew it would be out of a job immediately. The company would be condemned by the public for making shoddy product and sales would drop, costing them sales of not only Camry but also Corollas and Highlanders. Stockholders would be looking for peoples heads.

During the test drives of the Champ System on the PTS, the issues of "too many CP too quickly" were raised. And, players were told that was not possible to become too powerful from the Champ system.

Now, all day, I have been reading posts and thoughts.. and I have no idea what to tell ZoS, about how to get out of this mess they have gotten themselves into.

Bad PR, yeah, Lots of dis-satisfied customers, Yeah. Unprofessional conduct, sometimes, but also a relaxed environment that most of their team seems to enjoy.Obviously, something needs to happen. Just,, I cant see what? Caps doesnt play right. Nuking both the Vet and Champ system does, but, how to implement replacement?

Anyone else feeling like Orcsinium may be ZoS Mists of Pandaria?

It's different precisely because it's not life and death. No one goes to jail if Imperial City crashes every five minutes. You made a very poor comparison. ESO is media. It's fiction. It's a video game, so they think they can get away with it. How else can you explain them rushing these release dates? At least they pushed the console launch back, but since then they've tied themselves to the mast and have really stuck to the dates they set despite the flaws.

The movie business works the same way sometimes. The producers don't want to put up anymore money so they rush the product. You see it a lot with sequels. They just want to cash in on a brand name and think that will overcome the poor development decisions. The Star Wars prequels and the Hobbit movies come to mind. ESO is just like that.

NewBlacksmurf · September 2015

Nebthet78 wrote: »

...

Whatever is going on....I'm just trying to follow the topic.
So what I wanted to comment has changed but anyways....

The company really rubbed me wrong when they added VR levels.
Then they increased them with no content and later bumped them again. We complained and got overly excited about VR being removed and the exciting justice system. Also the champion levels or system that was to replace the VR's in some way.

Waited....and waited....unsubbed and waited for console....resubbed and got on PTS to test out the justice system and champion stuff. Then you hear later that the champion system is no longer replacing VR ....then oh but VR is going away....but we're adding more VR with IC and reducing the exp a little for VR but won't add more VR to Orsinium but haven't said it'll be removed.

For anyone to loose hope or stop supporting ZOS or have trust issues.
Definitely ....yeah...but I still try and support them as best I can even tho I pationately disagree with how some things are being managed.

Edit: I'd like CP to be PvP only and well you know or see from my comment I'm not a VR fan so that'd be a good start

[Moderator Note: Removed moderated quote]

Mojmir · September 2015

Have no fear,this isn't the only place they catch hell.Facebook let's them have it so much more than we do

Personofsecrets · September 2015

I suggest to everyone who may be losing their posts and also wants to discuss a topic, such as this one or any other that is critical of the company, to self censor. Be as careful as you can or know the risk of acting out on the forums. Remember that forum moderation can be held against you if you ever have a problem with your actual account.

You have to follow the rules, but you also have to follow any interpretation of the rules that may be used to moderate your comment.

Nerouyn · September 2015

I'm a big fan of the single-player games so not a Zenimax hater. Morrowind is still my favourite game ever. But this looks like another example of the kind of mistake you rarely see with other developers. I wonder if their history with the single-player games might be the problem.

Mods have always been their saving grace. When they screwed up - eg. magic in Skyrim or the perk point cap - people made mods and everyone installed them. No harm no foul. Game kept selling like hot cakes. So they've never had to worry about getting the fine details right. Just make a good story and provide the tools for modding.

Yolokin_Swagonborn · September 2015

At this moment, this post has 45 replies. This reply will be #46. Just a random observation.

dodgehopper_ESO · September 2015

I always thought soft caps would accompany the Champion System. We use to have soft caps, it confuses me why they got rid of them only to slap the CP system on top. Soft caps would have been the inherent balance in the system, and would have also made the gap between races a lot easier to cross (particularly if every racial trait had something similar to be earned from the CP System).

dodgehopper_ESO · September 2015

Violynne wrote: »

J2JMC wrote: »

The title is a quote from a ZOS employee on the most recent ESO LIVE in regards to the Champion System. My question: Why implement this system in the first place if they were aware of the impact it would have on the game design?

I'm not speaking for ZoS, but the answer should be quite obvious: if you capped the game at level 50, gamers would have been upset. Take a look around. Anything that goes wrong is met with rage, with the oft used "pull your head our of your...", which I say is completely rude.

I also think the comment is taken out of context. The CP system isn't "broken", it's that ZoS underestimated how many people would level up so fast as to break the scale.

It's no different than Destiny, which just threw everyone back a few "levels" in order to keep players "aligned". Otherwise, the unbalance would seriously make PvP horrendous (moreso).

And that's where the issue of this game is: PvP. None of the CP issues have anything to do with the base game. It's all about PvP, where players in veteran are getting smoked by players who are now banding together to "zerg" players.

At this stage, there's really no solution that's going to work which won't either A) tick off the players who "earned" their current rank or alienate those who are trying to do the same in order to compete with those already at the top.

Taking the CP/VR away from players is not a solution.

Therefore, there's only one left: slow the game down and reduce the damage.

It's not a perfect solution, but at this stage in the game, any solution's going to be met with hate.

It would be interesting to see a poll of the number of players willing to have CP/VR reset if ZoS restructures the scaling.

How does slowing the game down get rid of the gaps that already exist? If the CP differential is such a core problem, they should just make different tiers of pvp maps based on CP differences.

Darlgon · September 2015

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

I always thought soft caps would accompany the Champion System. We use to have soft caps, it confuses me why they got rid of them only to slap the CP system on top. Soft caps would have been the inherent balance in the system, and would have also made the gap between races a lot easier to cross (particularly if every racial trait had something similar to be earned from the CP System).

Now that you mention it, it leads to a question:

If soft caps had remained, would they have had to HARD CAP healing and DPS in Cyrodiil?

Sausage · September 2015

What exactly is the problem. CP boosted life into this game a lot. Why should new players grind 1+ year CP like we oldies did? So we need somekind of catch-up system. Im more interested to know how long it takes for new player to reach the cap. I hope its like 2-3 month and that means good grind.

Paulhewhewria · September 2015

I'll bet my college degree that the champion system even with caps will drive new comers off who wants to grind all the damn time not only for CPs,but also over 100 craft mats to get 1 item and then 10 fragments for some random ass page of a motif?
What I'm saying is the grinds are become abit much and this is only the first DLC I'm scared to think what the next will bring.OH well Fallout 4 will be here by then to keep me happy I guess XD.

P3ZZL3 · September 2015

@WarlordGrievous Good News is, however, I'm sure there will be a "convenient" way to obtain those things without a grind per-say

Paulhewhewria · September 2015

P3ZZL3 wrote: »

@WarlordGrievous Good News is, however, I'm sure there will be a "convenient" way to obtain those things without a grind per-say

Haha yeah well I may forget my wallet and then ZOS can have no more money from this elder scrolls fan.

BlackEar · September 2015

Put on a seasonal cap!

And disable it in PVP - really this is 100 % most important.

Rosveen · September 2015

Nerouyn wrote: »

I'm a big fan of the single-player games so not a Zenimax hater. Morrowind is still my favourite game ever. But this looks like another example of the kind of mistake you rarely see with other developers. I wonder if their history with the single-player games might be the problem.

Mods have always been their saving grace. When they screwed up - eg. magic in Skyrim or the perk point cap - people made mods and everyone installed them. No harm no foul. Game kept selling like hot cakes. So they've never had to worry about getting the fine details right. Just make a good story and provide the tools for modding.

Zenimax Online Studios didn't develop the single player games, that was Bethesda Game Studios. ZOS was created in 2007 just for ESO, which is their first game (but many developers they employ, or used to employ, are MMO veterans). They didn't have anything to do with the games you love. You have only ESO to form your judgement.

Xeven · September 2015

100 CP provides a 25% bonus to X.

Give someone 1200 cp and they become a monster.

+25% shields, +25% regen, -25% damage taken, +25 damage given... You get the idea. Were not talking about 2% or 4% here. The advantage is enormous.

Yolokin_Swagonborn · September 2015

BlackEar wrote: »

Put on a seasonal cap!

And disable it in PVP - really this is 100 % most important.

If we didn't have CP in PvP, then all those nerfs to dodge roll, block, even blink, wouldn't have had to happen.

PvE'ers hate it when they get their skills nerfed because of PvP. Not having CP in PvP would have saved so much.

anitajoneb17_ESO · September 2015

Nebthet78 wrote: »

There are a lot of posts disappearing lately. Specifically the ones that prove without a shadow of a doubt that ZOS screwed the pooch and messed up, or ones where customers are voicing their dissatisfaction with the game as it currently stands.

If that is true, how come I still see sooo many negative posts in here ? Each and every one of them proves how wrong you are.

The posts that are getting deleted are the ones where people cannot make the difference between expressing criticism and resorting to insults and despise. And when they're being moderated they QQ censorship when all they should blame is themselves for not knowing what respect means.

lathbury · September 2015

here is my suggestion for a fix forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/220279/what-if#latest

Faulgor · September 2015

Meh. The whole character system has been a colossal mess since the start, IMO.

There is just no guiding vision behind it, no balance in the stats and skills themselves, which is why they constantly had to readjust what they were even trying to achieve. Magicka and Stamina now boost damage, now you can get more health for attribute points, but attribute points don't really matter all that much, the skill bar is the limiting power factor, but you can have as many passives actives as you like, spell and weapon damage is one stat, now it's two, now skill damage depends on which is higher, now crit does too, now some spells cost stamina (logic has gone out the window a long time before this), now we drop soft caps to promote build diversity, now we make every armor only suitable for one playstyle, now inflate all stats so you can see a 0.1% increase, now we drop attack speed bonuses because nobody uses light attacks anyway, now heavy attacks regain resources to make basic attacks more appealing, now ultimate gain is the same for everyone after using basic attacks, now you have the champion system with even more unlimited active passives, now we add a cap so there is a limit, sort of, and now is the part where we still don't give a hoot about enchanting ...
It's an endless nightmarish theater of falling masks, where you never know who's behind the mask and what play is actually on because the director doesn't know either.

If it were up to me, they should gut the whole, whole system and build something worthwhile from the ground up that deservers the Elder Scrolls name. They have proven before they are not shy to change core systems, but they only made everything worse because there is still no guiding vision behind it.

But that will never happen because then everyone but me will leave. That they are stuck to make changes on a running system is exactly why we will never see something coherent coming out of ESO's character system.

BaldusMageezack · September 2015

Hey that's the same thing my uncle said about alcoholism before he died of liver disease

Troneon · September 2015

Oh plz they are talking complete BS.

Put in a system where exp is the most important factor to your characters progression and strength, cause it to take longer and more frustration to gain exp/champion points, then give a real money way of speeding up the process....

Then sit back and rake in all the $$$$$$$

Claim "oops" we didn't realize afterwards...

Plz stfu...they know exactly what they are doing and they have no issue doing it blatantly in peoples faces and claiming the "we didn't realize at the time" card....because that's original, playing dumb.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2luhwy3KAE0