"We knew it was going to be a problem, but we didn't expect it to happen as quickly as it did"

J2JMC · September 2015

The title is a quote from a ZOS employee on the most recent ESO LIVE in regards to the Champion System. My question: Why implement this system in the first place if they were aware of the impact it would have on the game design? Furthermore, why continue to balance the game around this system if they knew it was a problem? Had they simply overlooked the mathematics involved with the CP system that would've been ok. Instead, they were apparently aware of the problem and just hoped it wouldn't spring up too soon. I interpreted the above quote as "This system will let us keep milking old players for money and hopefully we figure out a solution to our content problem before it bones new players." Now they decided to slow down the problem to a pace they like with the use of seasonal caps instead of actually trying to fix it. If ZOS has decided that the Power Creep, I mean Champion, System is a problem, they need to actually figure out a way to make it work. Not try to slow it down WHILE balancing the game around said system. Shield breaker set. BE nerf. Roll dodge nerf. All just ridiculous ways to alleviate issues that may not have existed without the CP system(and possibly if soft caps still existed).

If ZOS decides to leave in the Champion System so be it. At the very least, it would be nice of them to make sure that they don't have to change entire game mechanics because the system gets out of hand. A system which they knew before implementation would be an issue. I'm fine with the CP system being slowed down until they figure out what to do with it. However, I hope game balance decisions will not continually be made on what is basically an unfinished part of the game design. I would like to see ZOS develop a solution that doesn't completely bone those who have played this game since launch while also not alienating new players so the game can actually have some longevity.

Personofsecrets · September 2015

Wow, they really said that? Very unprofessional and manipulative of the developers to push through such a system.

BigM · September 2015

One comment to what you said, "If ZOS decides to leave in the Champion System" not sure where it was said but yes it was said after saying they were removing the Champion System and replacing it with the Justice System. They said they would not be removing the Champion System. This is where I think they are making bad decisions.

Yolokin_Swagonborn · September 2015

"We knew it was going to be a problem, but we didn't expect it to happen as quickly as it did"

I wonder if that's what they said after intentionally launching the game with a known dupe exploit (reported to them in beta) that destroyed the early economy.

Many people also expressed issues about the champion system on the PTS. What is the point of inviting your community to pretest your game if you have no intention of taking any of their suggestions?

ZOS: "Welcome everyone to our new Trans-cyrodill railway system. All aboard!"
ESO Community: "Um why do the tracks to this train end abruptly in front of a giant gaping fiery pit?"
ZOS: "Oh yeah that. Don't worry about that, we will add more track way before any of our passengers get that far"
ESO Community: "But you are selling speed boost potions on the crown store that increase the trains speed by 10%"
ZOS: "Of course, people won't feel satisfied if they don't have something to work for. Don't worry..."

SeptimusDova · September 2015

Will this affect Khajiit ?

NewBlacksmurf · September 2015

Step 1 - admit there is a problem
Step 2 - remove VR levels asap
Step 3 - go back to step 1

Junkogen · September 2015

They spent all that time and money creating it. It was getting released no matter what. It's like how they release everything else people think is rushed. It's business. Whether it's good or bad business is up for debate, but they aren't going to keep pushing back release dates or their bosses will pull the plug or fire them. They have to show their bosses production. If they created the champion system only to scrap it or keep pushing it back their bosses would be furious. I think it's the same reason they don't fix long-nagging issues like the group tool, as well. They have to keep up the appearance that they're moving forward and being productive. Spending all their time on old things makes them look incompetent to their bosses. So they release it and deal with it as they go. Pisses off some of the player base, but keeps the suits happy.

Look what happened with Everquest Next. You can't tell me those guys weren't let go because development was taking so long. The suits with money run the world. Matt Firor is not in charge. It's the guy who signs his checks that really runs the show. They probably don't play games or really care how fun they are. They just want to make as much money as possible, however that gets accomplished.

I actually think there's some merit to those that say the game is still in beta testing. It seems like they don't have time to really think things through. They just do things. It's kind of like what the Joker says in the Dark Knight. Other games might have plans, but ESO just does things.

Darlgon · September 2015

BigM wrote: »

One comment to what you said, "If ZOS decides to leave in the Champion System" not sure where it was said but yes it was said after saying they were removing the Champion System and replacing it with the Justice System. They said they would not be removing the Champion System. This is where I think they are making bad decisions.

Ummm..

@BigM
Can we guess you meant to put Veteran System where you put Champion and Champion where you put Justice? The Justice System is not in any way to replace the Vet/Champ system.

BigM · September 2015

@NewBlacksmurf see that is the big problem. in ESO live they never answer the big questions which only makes things worse. I stated a long time ago right after release they need a better PR system. Not to take anything away from ZOS_GinaBruno or ZOS_JessicaFolsom but they just aren't cut out for PR. They need someone that can see the big problems between customers and developers and the game design. Not saying they need to do what customers say or want but they need to put or maybe better stated handle the big problems customers are having.

Also they need to be a little more professional during the ESO Live programs, and stop the jokes that only in house gets. The program isn't suppose to be for them but the customers they are attempting to keep.

I understand this is a little harsh but the truth normally is. Either you want a great customer base with as little complaining from them that you can get (customers always complain) or you don't want customers at all.

Just my 2 cents!

GreenSoup2HoT · September 2015

Eso has turned into trash. Zos dosent even realize they changed the cyrodil de-buff while fixing Armour pen at the same time. Now player's are walking tank's. On top of that battle level is ridiculous. I asked my V6 magicka nb what his health was and he said 35k... That is crazy.

Update 1.6 was fine. I would of only tweaked a variety of thing's instead of a giant blanket nerf to everything.

I keep coming back to Eso because of the friend's i play with but the more i play the game...the more i see the flaw's. Flaw's that didn't even exist in 1.6 are appearing in 1.7.

I loved how nb's could kill from stealth in 1.6. Radiant mage light was the counter. Proxi det was a little over board and is all that really needed a tweak. (Snipe spam needed tweak's but only because the projectile travel speed was way to slow, if it was instant after the channel time you would never get hit by more then 1 without knowing).

I would much rather Sorc's have Crit-able shield's then Shield breaker. That set just show's how downhill this game is really going.

Perma Blocking in my mind was not an issue. It was CP regen that made it an issue.
.
.
.
All classes were so close to being perfect in 1.6. Now it's even worse in 1.7.

But remember, there's new stuff in the crown store! Also imperial city completely ruined Cryodil pvp / trails.

This is my opinion, i don't care if anyone disagree's. In the end the game was so close to being perfect and they completely ruined it since they change CORE mechanic's with such ease.

BigM · September 2015

Darlgon wrote: »

BigM wrote: »

One comment to what you said, "If ZOS decides to leave in the Champion System" not sure where it was said but yes it was said after saying they were removing the Champion System and replacing it with the Justice System. They said they would not be removing the Champion System. This is where I think they are making bad decisions.

Ummm..

@BigM
Can we guess you meant to put Veteran System where you put Champion and Champion where you put Justice? The Justice System is not in any way to replace the Vet/Champ system.

Yes my mistake. Thanks for the correction.

NewBlacksmurf · September 2015

BigM wrote: »

@NewBlacksmurf see that is the big problem. in ESO live they never answer the big questions which only makes things worse. I stated a long time ago right after release they need a better PR system. Not to take anything away from ZOS_GinaBruno or ZOS_JessicaFolsom but they just aren't cut out for PR. They need someone that can see the big problems between customers and developers and the game design. Not saying they need to do what customers say or want but they need to put or maybe better stated handle the big problems customers are having.

Also they need to be a little more professional during the ESO Live programs, and stop the jokes that only in house gets. The program isn't suppose to be from them but the customers they are attempting to keep.

I understand this is a little harsh but the truth normally is. Either you want a great customer base with as little complaining from them that you can get (customers always complain) or you don't want customers at all.

Just my 2 cents!

Fair ...seriously...that's fair

I've been around a while so my thoughts lean towards what's intentional vs what's intentional PR wise.

ZOS isn't dumb and naive at all...they are a company with people who definitely choose to keep employees on a need to know basis and lots of secrets are kept for business reasons.

ZOS live is one marketing or PR campaign that connects a group of gamers and customers but their PR missteps aren't (in my opinion) accidental....

Curious where all of this ends up....even the sub to no sub changes for console release which for whatever reason impacted PC

Edit: even the "we are removing VR" and announcing DLC over a year in advance with different UI's and features by platform. Some say it's missteps but I truly feel that's it's all business and intentional

AhPook_Is_Here · September 2015

Well somebody wasn't paying attention in calculus when they were going over derivatives.

Darlgon · September 2015

First off, the bulk of my thoughts are in this thread.

http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/219998/cp-farmers-now-is-the-time-to-hit-it/p1

However,

Junkogen wrote: »

They spent all that time and money creating it. It was getting released no matter what. It's like how they release everything else people think is rushed. It's business. Whether it's good or bad business is up for debate, but they aren't going to keep pushing back release dates or their bosses will pull the plug or fire them. They have to show their bosses production. If they created the champion system only to scrap it or keep pushing it back their bosses would be furious.

Yeah, maybe it isnt this life and death, but, what you say here is wrong. If Toyota put out a Camry, knowing the brakes would sometimes turn themselves on without the driver doing anything, the people who knew it would be out of a job immediately. The company would be condemned by the public for making shoddy product and sales would drop, costing them sales of not only Camry but also Corollas and Highlanders. Stockholders would be looking for peoples heads.

During the test drives of the Champ System on the PTS, the issues of "too many CP too quickly" were raised. And, players were told that was not possible to become too powerful from the Champ system.

Now, all day, I have been reading posts and thoughts.. and I have no idea what to tell ZoS, about how to get out of this mess they have gotten themselves into.

Bad PR, yeah, Lots of dis-satisfied customers, Yeah. Unprofessional conduct, sometimes, but also a relaxed environment that most of their team seems to enjoy.Obviously, something needs to happen. Just,, I cant see what? Caps doesnt play right. Nuking both the Vet and Champ system does, but, how to implement replacement?

Anyone else feeling like Orcsinium may be ZoS Mists of Pandaria?

Gidorick · September 2015

Pretty much my reaction:

kevlarto_ESO · September 2015

This happens in every game these days it seems, the dev's seem to never be able to stay ahead of the player base, they should have figured that there would be a handful of players that find ways to push the game to it's limits, don't know if those people earned those points legit or not I would hope that ZOS has looked at those accounts, have they been on 24/7 others playing the accounts, or what ever exploit there might be, then on the other hand might be completely legit just found a great spot and a ton of experience potions.

CP system should have never launched with out some kind of stop gap process in place.

RazielSR · September 2015

Please people,open your eyes and dont be blind. Let this game to die. I feel really bad for people paying for this. What more do you need to open your eyes? To have a developer literally laughing at your face?

BigM · September 2015

@RazielSR that is how I feel sometimes when I watch ESO Live. The joke makes no sense to us the customer but they are all laughing. So I think the joke is on us.

RazielSR · September 2015

BigM wrote: »

@RazielSR that is how I feel sometimes when I watch ESO Live. The joke makes no sense to us the customer but they are all laughing. So I think the joke is on us.

Now that you say it...I remember now that IC video where they were playing like 5 years old kids and saying nonsense and laughing like if the whole thing was a joke.

I guess it is fun for them to play with other people money and feelings.

SeptimusDova · September 2015

It wont be a joke if we all send them 1099's at the end of the tax year for all the money we sent them

Gyudan · September 2015

Sithisvoid wrote: »

...

Thank you for this.

[Moderator Note: Removed moderated quote]

SeptimusDova · September 2015

Right click print save as .pdf post on another place

Gilvoth · September 2015

SeptimusDova wrote: »

Will this affect Khajiit ?

this problem is mainly centered around older argonian slaves from morrowind. the khajiit's might be affected but not as badly as those slaves from morrowind.

SeptimusDova · September 2015

that is bad. that means this one will never find yarn

Yolokin_Swagonborn · September 2015

"We knew it was going to be a problem, but we didn't expect it to happen as quickly as it did"

- Michael Scott

SeptimusDova · September 2015

"We knew it was going to be a problem, but we didn't expect it to happen as quickly as it did"
- Michael Scott

They knew and yet they didn't brainstorm a scenario where it may get out of hand?

they expected it to happen when at a much later date? and what then?

I see wait to address the problem and or just ignore it. This should of been a priority. Not the armor or rings or sets. but this...

slumber_sandb16_ESO · September 2015

Replace all Champion stars with all passives, limit the amount of points you can have so you can only fully fill 2-4 trees at most, balance the passives to not be overly powerful, make them give smaller bonuses but that add up the more you focus on one type. Bam! Now you can create different builds in the champion system with different focuses like a tank spending points into defensive passives and then not having points to spend on damage passives etc.
Focus each tree on a specific thing like physical damage, physical resistance, healing maybe even crafting. Kinda more like it was in Skyrim.

Hiero_Glyph · September 2015

As NBS noted, the orginal intent of the CP system was to allow for the removal of VRs. Now while things can change during development, the utter lack of any attempt to fulfill this goal on the part of ZOS is entirely the problem (and they added 2 more VRs with IC). Furtheremore, CP use a linear system so within the first month ZOS should have been able to accurately predict the gain rates and isolate any exploits based on spikes in this rate (and rollback the offending players). To let players gain CP at an excessive rate also means that they should have been able to predict the need for a cap and implement it with IC. At this point ZOS only has themselves to blame for any problems with CP (although they never admit to making any mistakes).

tordr86b16_ESO · September 2015

Anyone with two stones worth of brains knew the CP system was just another threadmill grind just as it was when they introduced veteran ranks. Sorry, but I've lost all respect for the people mismanaging this IP, and until I see some miracle fixing ESO I won't be picking this game up anytime soon. You've had your chance ZOS, either get your act together or say goodbye to a lot of customers.

Yolokin_Swagonborn · September 2015

Hiero_Glyph wrote: »

As NBS noted, the orginal intent of the CP system was to allow for the removal of VRs. Now while things can change during development, the utter lack of any attempt to fulfill this goal on the part of ZOS is entirely the problem (and they added 2 more VRs with IC). Furtheremore, CP use a linear system so within the first month ZOS should have been able to accurately predict the gain rates and isolate any exploits based on spikes in this rate (and rollback the offending players). To let players gain CP at an excessive rate also means that they should have been able to predict the need for a cap and implement it with IC. At this point ZOS only has themselves to blame for any problems with CP (although they never admit to making any mistakes).

The most bitter of pills we had to swallow is that the champion system was supposed to free us from the veteran system. Instead of trading one set of advantages and drawbacks for another, we got BOTH systems simultaneiously and had to endure the disadvantages of both.

V16 stole all of our good gear. Not only that, but the difference in weapon and amour power levels between V14 and V16 is SO much higher than from V12 to V14.

V16 is effectively V20 as far as the weapons and gear go. This was done secretly, intentionally, and insidiously to make our V14 gear unattractive.

The Champion system is here but the veteran system is still screwing us and grabbing all of our great and exciting gear so we are forced to use ONLY THREE v16 jewelry sets.

I am surprised that more people aren't vocally upset about that. I don't believe for a moment that Orsinium won't be V18.

J2JMC · September 2015

slumber_sandb16_ESO wrote: »

Replace all Champion stars with all passives, limit the amount of points you can have so you can only fully fill 2-4 trees at most, balance the passives to not be overly powerful, make them give smaller bonuses but that add up the more you focus on one type. Bam! Now you can create different builds in the champion system with different focuses like a tank spending points into defensive passives and then not having points to spend on damage passives etc.
Focus each tree on a specific thing like physical damage, physical resistance, healing maybe even crafting. Kinda more like it was in Skyrim.

I agree with that the CP system should've been limited to 360 max. That still presents slight power imbalances between players but it's not that bad. I also think CP should've been tied to achievement points instead of xp. That way it's a reward for people who play through multiple aspects of the game(questing, cyrodiil, ic, dungeons, trials etc...) and not just who can grind in their respective v10 areas or cracked wood cave the longest.