Catching up with Champion Points

Cyril · September 2015

Having overheard and joining into some discussions with guildies, it looks that ZOS is looking to help close the gap on champion points, where a few people are over 2k points.

As described to me, there will be a hard cap placed and these people will lose their points above the cap.

So... I've got a couple thoughts in general:

.1) My first thought on giving a hard cap to points would be to not upset people where they have 2k, or are close to it, set the cap at 2k... what does that mean to the rest of the world? That they've got some grinding to do. For those who would think this makes those persons overpowered, or stronger... I would suggest this scenario: change the scaling on points. The bonuses are nice for having 10, 30, 75, 120 points, and those may not need to be changed, but the individual point gains could be scaled down, e.g. 1% for 1st pt, 0.5% for 2nd through 5th point, 0.25% for 6th through 10th, etc., so when you have (arbitrarily) 100 points in a single champion point area, it's not significantly different from persons that have roughly 30 points in. The change to scaling would help normalize the overall gains.

.2) My other big thought would be on how to close the gap between those people with umpteen points and those newer players. Add points to something to encourage gameplay. Specifically, add 3 points to the undaunted quest turn ins. Yes, for turning in the silver key undaunted quest you get 1 warrior, 1 thief, and 1 mage point, then for turning in the gold key undaunted pledge you get 1 warrior, 1 thief, and 1 mage point. What does this do? .A) Helps people catch up, and .B) encourage people to actively play with other players. This would aid the overall community of ESO as a whole.

Anyone feel either of these would be of benefit?

I can only hope this hits a devs screen (thought #2 in particular) and they can weigh pros/cons; I feel it is the one that would give the most benefit, be it to get persons to log in and to encourage people to play together. I know thought #1 is quite a deal of work, but may make life easier for some of the other existing systems (leaving each point gain at 400k xp per) so they don't have to alter other mechanics beyond that which needs corrected (champion point system and gains).

Please leave any feedback.

Cyril · September 2015

Cyril wrote: »

e.g. 1% for 1st pt, 0.5% for 2nd through 5th point, 0.25% for 6th through 10th, etc., so when you have (arbitrarily) 100 points in a single champion point area, it's not significantly different from persons that have roughly 30 points in. The change to scaling would help normalize the overall gains.

I completely forgot about reciprocal bonuses... another way to code would be summation of (k*1/n) per point, where n = point number and k is a coefficient.

if you've 10 points, then k*(1/1+1/2+1/3+1/4+1/5+1/6+1/7+1/8+1/9+1/10)=k*2.92896825397. In this case, you can make k a reasonable value to make the first few points significant.

Nestor · September 2015

The number of people who have 2000 points may be and probably is, very small. So, does ZOS help level the field for most of the players or the 1% that have ground out large numbers of CPs. Of course only ZOS knows the real statistics and the distributions of the numbers. However setting policy on the top 1% is not going to do everyone else any favors and they might as well not do any capping.

Personally, I would throw out the top one/two percent numbers, evaluate the rest, find the average or the mean or the median (been a while since i have taken stats so not sure which one is the best here for establishing a baseline). Then add in a growth factor that is reasonable and set any cap to that. If your one of the few that is over that amount, then your brought into balance with everyone else.

Xendyn · September 2015

Just goes to show how quickly things get misinterpreted by word of mouth.
A couple of corrections:

Cyril wrote: »

Having overheard and joining into some discussions with guildies, it looks that ZOS is looking to help close the gap on champion points, where a few 2 people are over 2k points.
2 people, not a few A few over 1400.

As described to me, there will be a hard cap placed and these people will lose their points above the cap.
will loss access temporarily to anything above the cap
So... I've got a couple thoughts in general:

.1) My first thought on giving a hard cap to points would be to not upset people where they have 2k, or are close to it, set the cap at 2k... what does that mean to the rest of the world? That they've got some grinding to do. For those who would think this makes those persons overpowered, or stronger... I would suggest this scenario: change the scaling on points. The bonuses are nice for having 10, 30, 75, 120 points, and those may not need to be changed, but the individual point gains could be scaled down, e.g. 1% for 1st pt, 0.5% for 2nd through 5th point, 0.25% for 6th through 10th, etc., so when you have (arbitrarily) 100 points in a single champion point area, it's not significantly different from persons that have roughly 30 points in. The change to scaling would help normalize the overall gains.

.2) My other big thought would be on how to close the gap between those people with umpteen points and those newer players. Add points to something to encourage gameplay. Specifically, add 3 points to the undaunted quest turn ins. Yes, for turning in the silver key undaunted quest you get 1 warrior, 1 thief, and 1 mage point, then for turning in the gold key undaunted pledge you get 1 warrior, 1 thief, and 1 mage point. What does this do? .A) Helps people catch up, and .B) encourage people to actively play with other players. This would aid the overall community of ESO as a whole.

Anyone feel either of these would be of benefit?

I can only hope this hits a devs screen (thought #2 in particular) and they can weigh pros/cons; I feel it is the one that would give the most benefit, be it to get persons to log in and to encourage people to play together. I know thought #1 is quite a deal of work, but may make life easier for some of the other existing systems (leaving each point gain at 400k xp per) so they don't have to alter other mechanics beyond that which needs corrected (champion point system and gains).

Please leave any feedback.

They will also include a catch-up mechanic so that someone with say 5 CP will gain them faster than someone with 500.

I think they have it covered at this point.

MrGrimey · September 2015

Stopped reading at "make the cap 2k points"

People having 2k points is the whole reason they are making a cap, you can't balance the game for people with 100 champ points and those with 2,000

Edit: read the rest, scaling wouldn't be too bad, but still favors grinders

nimander99 · September 2015

Just some facts according to Richard Lambert, there are currently 2 people with 2000+ CP's there are an additional 10 with 1000 to 2000 the rest of us fall between 1 and 1000.

Mendarthin · September 2015

Your point one would completely defeat the champion point system, if the diminishing returns reach a level at which there's hardly any difference between someone with 30 point or 100.

Your second point would do nothing to adress the gap between those at the top and those at the bottom of the champion point ladder. (as those at the top would simply jump to the new best way to gain them)

Really, the CP system is at a point that people will get shafted no matter what Zenimax decides to do. If they do nothing, new players will simply not be able to catch up to those that have a decent headstart on them CP- wise.

If they do decide to tackle the issue, people at the top of the CP ladder will feel like their effort's wasted.

My idea for tackling this: disconnect the CP points you've earned from those you're able to spend. Put a hardcap on the latter, and raise that hardcap based on ingame achievements.

For example: you've got a guy that has 1000 CP. He makes a new char. he can't spend any of his cp on his new char (as for non-vet chars, this hardcap on spending them would be 0). He still has all his CP, he simply can't use them yet for this toon.

Once he reaches V1 on it, let's say the cap gets increased by 50. so now he's able to spend 50 CP just by reaching V1 (as he already had 1000 Cp 'banked').

They could award similar raises in the CP cap on any number of things. completing the main questline, completing an expansion, reaching the level-cap, clearing a dungeon for the first time, etc, etc... Aslong as these are not-repeatable. Or, you only get the Cap increase the first time you complete it.

Though people with tons of CP would get the short end of the stick, it solves a number of issues (aslong as the raise in cap is compatible with earning it. Being able to spend 300 more CP for clearing a delve for example, would change nothing).
1) people at similar points in the game would be of similar power. (no more 500 cp low-levels breezing through everything)
2) it'd allow better balance for future non-PvP expansions, as Zenimax would have a handle on how many cp people can have going into it, and how much they want player power to increase after it (besides just releasing newer, more powerful armorsets)
3) It'd also allow a tighter spread in PVP. Servers with CP-caps could now become a thing.
4) they could implement other 'catchup' mechanics much more easily without worrying that they might be abused by people who farm CP religiously, as those people would not be able to spend them anyways. Similar to your second point, CP themselves might become a thing.

Sithisvoid · September 2015

They should just take them out of the game so people will stop using it as an excuse as to why they lost.

nimander99 · September 2015

Just render CP's disabled in PVP... I honestly don't understand why they don't just make a campaign that doesn't allow CP's to function in it, then everyone who thinks that every time they are face rolled is because that guy has 2k CP's can find out that they actually just need to L2P...

Forestd16b14_ESO · September 2015

ZOS said only 2 players have 2K CP and there gonna nerf this erm i mean fix it by when the cap comes all players will be giving a CP respect reguardless if they want it or not and the will be able to spend there CP only up to the cap. Players will still be able to earn CP past the cap but will not be able to spend them. So you 2 with 2K CP and those few with 1K yea enjoy it while you can cause your gonna be rung into the same level as normal players.

But that's what they said on ESO live they are still talking about what to set the cap at. As for the catch up mechanic I suggest that players stay enlightened till they hit the cap.

phairdon · September 2015

nimander99 wrote: »

Just render CP's disabled in PVP... I honestly don't understand why they don't just make a campaign that doesn't allow CP's to function in it, then everyone who thinks that every time they are face rolled is because that guy has 2k CP's can find out that they actually just need to L2P...

Outside of l2p, these would be my thoughts too. Once agin pvp is the influencing factor. Make all pvp campaigns non cp.

nimander99 · September 2015

phairdon wrote: »

nimander99 wrote: »

Just render CP's disabled in PVP... I honestly don't understand why they don't just make a campaign that doesn't allow CP's to function in it, then everyone who thinks that every time they are face rolled is because that guy has 2k CP's can find out that they actually just need to L2P...

Outside of l2p, these would be my thoughts too. Once agin pvp is the influencing factor. Make all pvp campaigns non cp.

Yep, it's been the obvious solution in my mind since people started crying about CP's on day 1.

Hiero_Glyph · September 2015

1) CP promote excessive power creep.

2) Adding a catchup mechanic does nothing to prevent #1 and, in fact, encourages it.

3) #'s 1 & 2 do nothing to address the power gap for new players and continue to discourage them from ever playing.

4) Adding a CP cap is a temporary fix that does not address #'s 1-3.

5) CP need to be entirely reworked to offer players a choice in playing style, not a straight buff across multiple areas.

6) Non-CP campaigns will continue to be requested until #'s 1-5 are solved since players want a fair environment based on player skill and build strength, not time spent grinding/exploiting.

7) CP negatively affect PvE areas and the newest dungeons are proof of that as high CP groups are burning through the content while low CP groups are still struggling to clear them. See also #1.

tl;dr: CP are ruining the balance of the game and need to be changed in order to keep ESO attractive to both veteran and new players alike.

evoga · September 2015

Simplest method is to just remove champion points. No need for them.

Waffennacht · September 2015

Lack of CP... then only vet 16... limited gear... without CP there would be no end game or at least extremely limited

Kammakazi · September 2015

Get good.

hrothbern · September 2015

Very good action of ZOS to introduce a moving over time cap for CP that can be employed, without taking away hard earned CP's by grinding.

I would like to add a consideration to the discussion on CP that pops up directly and indirectly in some threads, but would like to outline it here to the point:

"as long as the CP's we can employ are a fraction of total CP now 3600 (I guess up to approx 50% of total CP), the CP system will add to the diversity of builds"

To put it in another way: "if all endgame people have max CP, the CP system only amplifies the diversity of the builds coming from the diversity in gear, race, class, and abilities chosen in the class"

Because I favor a high diversity in builds between the players, I would favor that the max CP points that can be employed at any time in the game never exceeds approx 50% of the total CP.
I would recommend that if this would be implemented, that ZOS adds some perks to the CP tree for a total pool of 7200 during the coming years.

For more diversity and freedom of choice of builds

Sausage · September 2015

Im just happy its happening, they should encourage new and casual players to stay instead of scaring them away. Finally this genre is moving forwards, now is the big question if other devs are willing to listen, or is this going to be just ESO's thing.

Rosveen · September 2015

Sausage wrote: »

Im just happy its happening, they should encourage new and casual players to stay instead of scaring them away. Finally this genre is moving forwards, now is the big question if other devs are willing to listen, or is this going to be just ESO's thing.

But... Everybody else has catch up mechanics... And the cap doesn't actually help new players catch up... How exactly are we moving the genre forward?

Gidorick · September 2015

Rosveen wrote: »

Sausage wrote: »

Im just happy its happening, they should encourage new and casual players to stay instead of scaring them away. Finally this genre is moving forwards, now is the big question if other devs are willing to listen, or is this going to be just ESO's thing.

But... Everybody else has catch up mechanics... And the cap doesn't actually help new players catch up... How exactly are we moving the genre forward?

ding ding ding.... Caps are just a short term solution to a long term problem. They will need to do something else. They're just buying time.

DisgracefulMind · September 2015

As long as a new player has no way to reach what players who are dedicated, long-time players have extremely fast, I'm fine with a catch-up mechanic. I don't think a new player who hasn't invested the same amount of time should be given immediate or even fast equality to a player who has dedicated much, much more time.

Rosveen · September 2015

DisgracefulMind wrote: »

As long as a new player has no way to reach what players who are dedicated, long-time players have extremely fast, I'm fine with a catch-up mechanic. I don't think a new player who hasn't invested the same amount of time should be given immediate or even fast equality to a player who has dedicated much, much more time.

How about a fast-track to the previous cap? By the time a new player reaches it, others will be already moving towards the new cap.

I don't want to theoretize about exact numbers because we don't even know what the cap's going to be yet.

nimander99 · September 2015

Gidorick wrote: »

Rosveen wrote: »

Sausage wrote: »

Im just happy its happening, they should encourage new and casual players to stay instead of scaring them away. Finally this genre is moving forwards, now is the big question if other devs are willing to listen, or is this going to be just ESO's thing.

But... Everybody else has catch up mechanics... And the cap doesn't actually help new players catch up... How exactly are we moving the genre forward?

ding ding ding.... Caps are just a short term solution to a long term problem. They will need to do something else. They're just buying time.

Just have CP's have no effect in certain campaigns, problem solved long, middle and short term... I feel like I'm repeating myself

Shardaxx · September 2015

Some people have 2,000+ champion points WHAAAAAAT?!

Yeah, cap it, that's ridiculous. All the best multi-player online competitive games like COD cap quite early on (just giving prestige badges and stuff after that which don't make you any tougher), so that everyone reaches that level and then its just about player skill, ESO should follow this model its more fun for everyone.

DisgracefulMind · September 2015

Rosveen wrote: »

DisgracefulMind wrote: »

As long as a new player has no way to reach what players who are dedicated, long-time players have extremely fast, I'm fine with a catch-up mechanic. I don't think a new player who hasn't invested the same amount of time should be given immediate or even fast equality to a player who has dedicated much, much more time.

How about a fast-track to the previous cap? By the time a new player reaches it, others will be already moving towards the new cap.

I don't want to theoretize about exact numbers because we don't even know what the cap's going to be yet.

This I can agree with as long as it's done correctly. I don't think there should be any sort of fast track to catching up to 6+ months of CP gaining, but close to it, sure.

sadownik · September 2015

hrothbern wrote: »

Very good action of ZOS to introduce a moving over time cap for CP that can be employed, without taking away hard earned CP's by grinding.

I would like to add a consideration to the discussion on CP that pops up directly and indirectly in some threads, but would like to outline it here to the point:

"as long as the CP's we can employ are a fraction of total CP now 3600 (I guess up to approx 50% of total CP), the CP system will add to the diversity of builds"

To put it in another way: "if all endgame people have max CP, the CP system only amplifies the diversity of the builds coming from the diversity in gear, race, class, and abilities chosen in the class"

Because I favor a high diversity in builds between the players, I would favor that the max CP points that can be employed at any time in the game never exceeds approx 50% of the total CP.
I would recommend that if this would be implemented, that ZOS adds some perks to the CP tree for a total pool of 7200 during the coming years.

For more diversity and freedom of choice of builds

Mate it wont help a bit new players who will join in few months. And since we dont know how high the cap will be i really would hold the praise.

Dagoth_Rac · September 2015

I think there should be a seasonal cap on CP spent, but never a cap on CP earned. And reaching the current cap should feel possible, albeit not immediate. So:

Joe has 250 CP.
Mary has 400 CP.
Vivec has 800 CP.

A cap of 500 CP is introduced. You are permanently enlightened while below 500 CP. At 500 CP, you return to normal with one batch of enlightenment per day.

Joe has 250 CP, he can spend 250.
Mary has 400 CP, she can spend 400.
Vivec has 800 CP, he can spend 500.

A few months later:

Joe has 575 CP.
Mary has 720 CP.
Vivec has 1000 CP.

Now the cap is raised to 750 CP. You are permanently enlightened while below 750 CP. At 750 CP, you return to normal with one batch of enlightenment per day.

Joe has 575 CP, he can spend 575.
Mary has 650 CP, she can spend 650.
Vivec has 1000 CP, he can spend 750.

So Vivec the hardcore player can jump to cap immediately. The casual Joe and "midcore" Mary will need to catch up, but this will be easier than before.

So the hardcore players can essentially bank CP for the next cap increase. They will reach cap immediately and have a temporary power gap that makes them feel like big shots. The rest of us will be a little behind, but catching up with them feels possible and with our increased enlightenment, we will see real progress being made to narrow gap.

Will the power gap be completely abolished? No. Hardcore players who put in a lot of hours will still have an advantage, at least for a while. Will regular players feel like their endeavor is worthless? No. Catching up can and will happen.

You also can scale PvE content up to the current cap. If you come out with a dungeon tuned for players with 500 CP now, the folks with 1000+ CP will find it too easy. The folks with 100 CP will find it too hard and the thought of grinding out 400 CP to make the dungeon balanced feels daunting. But if everyone is capped at 500 CP and catching up to 500 CP feels like a realistic goal within the 3 or 4 months before the next content drops, it will not be too bad. And by limiting power with a temporary cap, even the hardcore players will likely find content more enjoyable because they will not be able to, essentially, out-level it via CP.

I think this will actually improve PvE more than PvP. In PvE you really need a certain amount of DPS and HPS and damage mitigation before a lot of the content can be tackled. No matter how well you know the mechanics, a lack of raw firepower can undo you. In PvP, more raw stats are definitely a plus, but not quite the be-all-and-end-all that they are in PvE.

Anyway, that is my idea.