Waffennacht wrote: »

Well for me, though im not temp or DK, the change means a tank can't just sit there pushing one or two buttons. Imo it has become more ... interactive for us. Im still able to tank, resource management just seems more mandatory now. Even though, I'll admit, the change forced me to change my char. The change has made me better I'm thinkin

How having less resources is more interactive. Only tanks that were tanking just pressing 1 or 2 buttons were the bad tanks.

Well I would say now managing both resources is what puts you above the other players. Instead of putting everything into just one pool, that just wont suffice.

My example would be, for me. It was enough to use three different abilities to get the job done. Now I use a far more interactive, weaving and controlling set up.

Im talking my own experience here, it just feels more interactive to me. I know that I wouldn't have changed much without the update.

One more thing, im a sorc so what Im experiencing could be just subject to my class. The other classes look to be a bit more straight forward from what I can tell

Nonpoint wrote: »

I posted these questions to reddit also because the forums vs reddit usually gives very different takes on things. Some of the replies over there suggest that you just Stamina stack a DK and continue to perma block dungeons with the occasional heavy attack to restore stam, igneous shield spam for stam, and ult use for resource gain(because battle roar).

Doesnt seem to be much Templar tank feedback post 2.1 around though. How would you have to build a Temp now? Stam stack it, enchant for health, and stand in channeled focus as much as possible? This could be horrible, I don't know, just throwing a vague idea.

The trick to a stamina DK tank is a lot of PVP. Caltrops, Barrier/War Horn, and Vigor are in all the latest builds I've seen. For someone like me who isn't big on PVP, that doesn't work for me. So I'm going with a magicka DK tank who can spam shields, CCs, and debuffs without relying too heavily on stamina (or at least that is the plan).

Templars became even more of a heal class this update. Almost all the changes were to how the Restoring Light tree interacts with its passives, making a lot of the heals even stronger. Unfortunately Templars are the only class without a decent stamina return ability. Templars are the only class that can give stamina to other players, but can't regain their own. That means Temp tanks are bottom of the barrel IMO. But I've also seen someone say Temps are the best tanks in this update, so I guess it's all about how you build and play the class.

For me tanking has devolved to hitting one or two buttons. I can't really help my teammates out like I use to. As a DK tank, it's about hitting the Heroic Slash when I have enough stamina, blocking, Eruption, and Choking Talons. Otherwise I can't do much because resources.

I much prefer pre-IC tanking. Any tank that was perma blocking had no idea how to justify being apart of a group.

Furthermore, as a particular bad (but, sadly, helpful...) habit I picked up was less about watching the battlefield and more about concentrating on a green bar at the bottom of my screen.

In short, and in my opinion, tanking right now is God Damn boring. The easiest way to deal with the stamina nerf is to stack stamina and block-cost and perma-block. Lol, go figure.

DK:
+ Good stamina management
+ Extra Blocking effectiveness
+ Lots of AoE CC and Snare
+ Good burst ultimate for tanking, ultimate heal all resource
+ Passive Spell Resistance
+ Extra healing taken
Best tank build I can think: Blocking tank (Max Stamina + Magicka Regen + Ultimate Gain Build)

The concept is in this thread:
http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/2260527/#Comment_2260527
http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/2267525/#Comment_2267525
http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/2269107/#Comment_2269107

---

Templar:
+ Good Healing
+ Good Cleansing
+ Cheap ultimate for tanking
+ Extra melee blocking effectiveness
+ Passive Spell Resistance
Best tank build I can think: Channeling tank (Damage Resistance + Stamina Regen + Magicka Regen + Max Magicka)

---

My templar tank concept is like this:

Damage resistance (FYI damage resistance is stack multiplicatively):
- 5 Light of Cyrodiil = 25% damage resistance while channeling/casting
- Rugged Nord Passive = 6% damage resistance
- Ring of Preservation = 8%-12% damage resistance (In PvP most people will be either vampire or werewolf)
- Empowering sweep = 15% - ??? damage resistance
- Undeath Vampire Passive = up to 33% damage resistance
- 4 Bastion of Heartland = 5% damage resistance in PvP (Optional)

Race = Nord (Rugged Passive)/Breton (All Passive)
Drink = Stamina & Magicka Regen
Acc Enchant = 1 Stamina Regen & 2 Magicka Regen
Mundus = Stamina regen at low champion point, Magicka regen at high champion point (600+), healing done at very high champion point
PvP Sets= 5 LoC, 4 BoH, 3 Akaviri Dragon Guard
PvE & PvP Sets = 5 LoC, 2 Blood Spawn, 4 Seducer (low champion point)/3 Willpower + 2 Immortal Warrior (high champion point)
Weapon = Dual Wield/One hand & Shield

The concept is to use Immoveable & Immoveable potion (immoveable, stamina, health potion), so I will get perma immoveable and cannot be interrupted.
Stamina use will be only for Immoveable every 5 sec (except when in the effect of the potion) & Ring of Preservation

The primary skill is ritual of rebirth/lingering ritual (casting) for team healing, or alternatively we can use Invigorating drain (channeling) for ultimate gain and self healing, or puncturing sweep (channeling) for DPS and self healing.
Depends on situation, but try to constantly spam one of these ability to get 25% damage resistance.

In PTS my ritual of rebirth can self heal about 30k in PvE and 15k in PvP.
In PvP we will have 50% damage resistance (before armor) most of the time and can go up to 65% when low health, and even more when outnumbered. We can also go Elusive Mist if we want to boost damage resistance for a moment or for escaping.

Even the damage resistance in this build not as high as blocking/misting build, we can do other think while in the protection, including healing, cleansing, or even damage.
Thus, we can do the tank & the healer role at the same time, or maybe even solo everything with puncturing sweep spam, lol.

In team PvP this build is very hard to kill and makes the entire party in range also become harder to kill, and sometimes this build can throw good damage or even finisher (the channeling Jesus beam) due to high max magicka.

Champion point will play huge role for optimizing this build, because many aspect contribute to this build: stamina, magicka, health, cost reduction, damage resistance, armor, damage, magic damage, critical chance, critical damage, heal, etc.

NB tank here. Couple of changes in game play, but nothing dramatic.

move out of red more often, only block the big blows, self heals and it is playable. it requires a bit more reaction than pre 1.7 but playable

I switched to just healing and DPS. Can't do all 3 now with 1 build. If I can get more gear with just stamina bonuses then I'll see.

Perhaps include 4 pc Black Rose and some other stuff.

sebban wrote: »

Tanking is less interactive than it was before. You can still perma-block, so if ZOS' intent was to get rid of that, they failed.
Before, you could use alot of your resources to help your team with a bit of DPS, CC, etc. Now all you do is watch your stamina and make sure you have enough stamina. Yea, you can heavy attack, but that doesn't make tanking "interactive" or "fun".

If ZOS tried to make tanking more fun and interactive, they failed horribly. It's much less fun and much less interactive.

If you don't have a templar for repentance or spears, then it really is a DPS race to kill everything before the tank runs out of stamina.

I dont think the idea was to remove blocking but to remove blocking and still doing a bunch of CC and dps and other things. Youre no longer a cornered Honey badger with a turtle shell. youre just a turtle now. The regen was being abused very badly not the blocking. Any stam dps could turtle up.. not good. Any tank could spew out a ton of effects then just turtle up and repeat... Also not good. The regen prevents a tank from going turtle vs another target and then just blasting all their stamina into someone face while they can do nothing. If you want to block fine go ahead. its what tanks do. But beating on a wall only to have that wall fall on you every 10 seconds is what did it lol. Does it make tanking more boring then before? Yes. But then again you dont need to turtle all the time only when big hits are coming the rest can be used for abilities while makes it just as fun as it was before.

It was a real problem and unless you ran into it quite often people wont understand what it was about. Youre in pvp and you run into a tank he blocks up. you just smack him doing nothing till youre empty or try to walk off. When you do that he just blows up on you. You attack back he just turtles till you try to walk off he repeats. Its like trying to walk away from a fight but you cant because your girlfriend keeps following you and smacking you in the head that only leads to the cops showing up saying you cant do that ( hence ZOS).

Im running with an orc dk tank not endgame. Im at v13 and i have level v8/v10 gear which includes 5 pieces of secudes, 3 warlock and 4 alessias, i have no problem with this setup, you can manage you stam pool using earthen abilities and your magicka will have a nice regen. Im taking v15/v16 vet dungoens with out problem, but im always with a good healer.
As im not endgame, im 3/20/39.

Jumper45 wrote: »

I dont think the idea was to remove blocking but to remove blocking and still doing a bunch of CC and dps and other things. Youre no longer a cornered Honey badger with a turtle shell. youre just a turtle now. The regen was being abused very badly not the blocking. Any stam dps could turtle up.. not good. Any tank could spew out a ton of effects then just turtle up and repeat... Also not good. The regen prevents a tank from going turtle vs another target and then just blasting all their stamina into someone face while they can do nothing. If you want to block fine go ahead. its what tanks do. But beating on a wall only to have that wall fall on you every 10 seconds is what did it lol. Does it make tanking more boring then before? Yes. But then again you dont need to turtle all the time only when big hits are coming the rest can be used for abilities while makes it just as fun as it was before.

It was a real problem and unless you ran into it quite often people wont understand what it was about. Youre in pvp and you run into a tank he blocks up. you just smack him doing nothing till youre empty or try to walk off. When you do that he just blows up on you. You attack back he just turtles till you try to walk off he repeats. Its like trying to walk away from a fight but you cant because your girlfriend keeps following you and smacking you in the head that only leads to the cops showing up saying you cant do that ( hence ZOS).

You seem to be talking about PvP. I was talking about PvE.

I don't PvP much (or at all), so if you think it was causing issues in PvP, I'm not going to argue that. What I am going to argue is that if you have a issue in PvP, then they should fix it in PvP and not make PvE tanking worse in the process.

Jumper45 wrote: »

sebban wrote: »

Jumper45 wrote: »

I dont think the idea was to remove blocking but to remove blocking and still doing a bunch of CC and dps and other things. Youre no longer a cornered Honey badger with a turtle shell. youre just a turtle now. The regen was being abused very badly not the blocking. Any stam dps could turtle up.. not good. Any tank could spew out a ton of effects then just turtle up and repeat... Also not good. The regen prevents a tank from going turtle vs another target and then just blasting all their stamina into someone face while they can do nothing. If you want to block fine go ahead. its what tanks do. But beating on a wall only to have that wall fall on you every 10 seconds is what did it lol. Does it make tanking more boring then before? Yes. But then again you dont need to turtle all the time only when big hits are coming the rest can be used for abilities while makes it just as fun as it was before.

It was a real problem and unless you ran into it quite often people wont understand what it was about. Youre in pvp and you run into a tank he blocks up. you just smack him doing nothing till youre empty or try to walk off. When you do that he just blows up on you. You attack back he just turtles till you try to walk off he repeats. Its like trying to walk away from a fight but you cant because your girlfriend keeps following you and smacking you in the head that only leads to the cops showing up saying you cant do that ( hence ZOS).

You seem to be talking about PvP. I was talking about PvE.

I don't PvP much (or at all), so if you think it was causing issues in PvP, I'm not going to argue that. What I am going to argue is that if you have a issue in PvP, then they should fix it in PvP and not make PvE tanking worse in the process.

Ah well in the case of pve it seems pretty simple what they were aiming for. They wanted you to get out from behind that shield and join everyone else in the fun lol. But its only fun if you let it. People get mitigation on the brain too much like somehow as a tank if you arnt mitigating at maximum peek 24/7 youve failed at your job. You only need to mitigate the big stuff not the small stuff. I think we all need to sit down for a moment lol and think about previous MMOs. Blocking was a passive and we never really had control over it and we were at the mercy of cooldowns. Its been like this for a long time for MMOs. This time around we get to pick when we block etc which is this interaction youre missing I believe. In Past times all you did was taunt stuff and spam 2 buttons over and over and over. This is a far cry from that now. In its very essence on ESO its more interactive/action based then it ever was. So i dont think they can do much to reduce your fun level to what it was in prior mmos. So at this point were just splitting hairs. It needed to be fixed. PVE and PVP. Does it make your job harder. Yes. But is it any harder then DPS trying to burn down a ton of adds on time or a healer crapping a brick when the crap hits the fan and still trying to have magicka to continue to do their job AFTER you survive it? No. Once you remove the tank mentality you realize quite quickly you cant tank everything you cant kill everything and you cant heal everything and its more about working as a group then some selfish idea that youre the only one who can take a hit and thats the way it has to be or youre not doing your job. I think this shows with the fact you do not have an aoe taunt and just a single target one. So its grab what you can handle not grab everything because youre the tank. Grab the sword and board on the healer thats stunning him. Grab the archers from putting holes all in the dps. Grab the casters blasting everything and anything. Pick your poison. Just putting it out there i dont think they expect you to interrupt everything, taunt everything, move all the mobs to the correct locations and still have stam/magicka to CC and dps and everything else. If you could it wouldnt be any fun lol.

Long story short... It could be worse.

Paragraphs and line breaks are your friend.

Jumper45 wrote: »

@13igTyme Yeah thats why i added long story short at the end. Of course you don't say anything about THAT line break! If I added line breaks and paragraphs it would be an entire page long lol.

It wouldn't be an page long, but it would at least not be a massive unreadable wall of text.

I was a Magicka Templar tank (heavy seducers, magnus, healers) and loved it. Healing, supporting and tanking. It freed up the healer to spend more time dps'ing. I was always last man standing in a wipe and could often turn the tide by just hunkering down, weathering the storm with blazing shield and defensive stance spam, thinning whatever mobs were left until it was safe to get rezzes off.

The patch killed it sadly. You have to go with the developers' idea of a tank, which means lots of base stamina and using stamina/health gear.

@13igTyme Lmao

I have Tanked all the old dungeons and their Veteran version scaled to VR16 with a Stamina specced Templar Tank, geared in my old VR14 gear, with no problem at all. Most of those times my Healer was a Magicka NB without a Master's Restoration Staff, Vet Crypt of Hearts and vet Banished Cells included.

You just need to be smart about it. For example I sloted Heroic Slash to slow down and debuff damage of those daedroths and just kited them around while taunting boss with inner rage .. no need to block at all. I wish I had Caltrops already ... but I need to work for them a little more since i rolled a new Templar for better racial passives.

I have actuall managed to solo non-vet City of Ash and Spindleclutch scaled to my VR16 on that toon.

No Stamina Regen while blocking is not as big problem for me as I was worried it would be.