Farming Molag Bal - loot distribution, groups and kill stealers

Personofsecrets · September 2015

MaxwellCrystal wrote: »

I run solo all the time but as a Tank DPS I don't do a huge amount of damage that it makes impossible for the tank to deal 10k damage (which I believe is the threshold) for gaining loot on huge health bosses like molag.

In other words no offense to you or your friend but your tank was just holding his shield and spamming buff abilities so in other words he/she is bad.

I tank with with 2700 spell damage and still miss out on loot. Even if tanks aren't just holding block, they aren't going to be beating the DPS. That is just a tanking thing. Even holding block just a little bit and having to use a taunt will cause the DPS disparity that leads to tanks not finishing in the money.

I also posit that tanks who are primarily blocking still deserve their loot for their contribution. A high parse isn't the only way of being valuable in a fight. Don't think otherwise.

SahrotRein · September 2015

As was said previously, neither did I think there was a loot for Molag, by that time I was in a group of around 15 people and there was some other group nearby. I didn't think there would be a loot lol, only the achievement. Then I've found out about the max 12-people-for-loot thing and managed to get into a group that kept its number strictly to max 12.

We killed Molag Bal and I looted 5x Monsterous Teeth or whatever it was

eliisra · September 2015

Personofsecrets wrote: »

MaxwellCrystal wrote: »

I run solo all the time but as a Tank DPS I don't do a huge amount of damage that it makes impossible for the tank to deal 10k damage (which I believe is the threshold) for gaining loot on huge health bosses like molag.

In other words no offense to you or your friend but your tank was just holding his shield and spamming buff abilities so in other words he/she is bad.

I tank with with 2700 spell damage and still miss out on loot. Even if tanks aren't just holding block, they aren't going to be beating the DPS. That is just a tanking think. Even holding block just a little bit and having to use a taunt will cause the DPS disparity that causes t a nks not to finish in thr money.

I also posit that tanks who are primarily blocking still deserve their loot for their contribution. A high parse isn't the only way of being valuable in a fight. Don't think otherwise.

Of course you're not going to get loot, if you dps and tank. Healing and dps'ing you usually get 0 loot to, if more than 12 players in the fight. Using a few support skills or group buffs, between dps'ing, no loot for you. Saving ulti for Barrier or Negate, because there's an enemy raid nearby, no loot for you either.

You need to stand in one place and mash max dps PvE rotation style, only think about yourself, if you want drops.

It's also a matter of builds. Healers and tanks can't just re-spec into full dps in a few seconds, when more allies suddenly arrives to the boss fight. You might have time to quickly change some skills, but that's not enough to compete with a character that's glass house main dps in every aspect, gear, CP and attributes.

At least as healer you can make sure squishy dps players dies. When they have to wait for soul walk timer, they loose their chance to reach the loot table and you increase your chances of getting drops. But tanks cant even do that.

Dunno, it's just *** how raids recruit tanky players and healers to save their butts in Sewer groups, because scared of evil PvP'ers. But as soon as it gets crowded with allies, it's all about the PvE dps race. Every man for himslef. Than it's suddenly healers and tanks own fault for not "contributing" enough.

Artemiisia · September 2015

I have tried testing this rumor, that if u dont get high dps u wont be able to loot

I just stood there with all 4 bosses in the middle, heavy attacking with restrostaff 3 k dps max, and I got to loot all of erm even with more then 20 people around

timidobserver · September 2015

manavortex wrote: »

What I am complaining about is that those people obviously aren't capable of or willing to a) completing the event on their own or b) organising an own group, which takes effort and communication. Instead they abuse the effort of those who actually group up and coordinate themselves, thus rendering said effort useless for one of the twelve people. They are taking something away from others who have spent more time and effort.

And they are actually being rewarded for it, which encourages this sort of behaviour. I won't do it, and I can understand why people chose to do it, since it makes sense for them, but I don't like it.

That's my problem with it.

If the encounter was meant to be exclusive to a single group of people, it would have been put into a trial. It is an open world boss, so I don't have an issue with any random person that wants to attack it getting credit if they put out adequate dps.I don't think the state of being in a group should be any advantage at all, with regard to loot, when fighting an open world boss.

I'll give you that you do have a point on the tank loot thing though. Though I have no idea how they could deal with it in a way that wouldn't be exploited outside of just removing any limitation. You tag it once you get loot, though I don't particularly like that route because it would allow 40 man zergs to be more productive.

Fissh · September 2015

manny254 wrote: »

manavortex wrote: »

I'm not a tank.

This is not about me, or anyone "not contributing". Every member of the group is contributing. That's because it's a group effort.

This is not about anyone under performing or whatever. It's about people being jerks and being rewarded for that, so I'd appreciate it if you would talk about that instead of minmaxing.

How are people being jerks? Please explain. If memory serves the way it works is something like this. The 10 players that contribute the most dps along with the 2 healers that contribute the most. I could be wrong about this, but this how I remember it working. There is no being a jerk. The 12 players that contributed the most to the boss kill get credit.

The purpose of this is to discourage players from bringing so many people that the fight becomes trivial. Even with only 12 the boss fight is trivial as I have personally completed it with as little as 3 people before. Yes you can group, but this games entire grouping system is about risk vs reward. From xp, ap, and telvar stone will all give more in a group of 2 opposed to as larger one.

So no tank builds in sewers? Don't play as you want....play as Manny says to play? Pompous and without purpose.

Fissh · September 2015

The argument that tanks should not be tanks is utterly asinine.

MrGrimey · September 2015

Beat him twice... And twice, I got no loot

Sausage · September 2015

I killed IC Molag Bal twice today and I was not able to loot, I got achievement though. I wonder what happened to the loot is shared thing.

Ley · September 2015

Loot goes to the 12 players who either dealt the most damage or did the most healing... If they just added an additional factor for players who received the most damage from said mob, then the problem is solved and being a tank becomes as rewarding as any other role.

Personofsecrets · September 2015

Ley wrote: »

Loot goes to the 12 players who either dealt the most damage or did the most healing... If they just added an additional factor for players who received the most damage from said mob, then the problem is solved and being a tank becomes as rewarding as any other role.

That is a tough on, but could work. I think that unmitigated damage would have to be the number that is used.

Elder_III · September 2015

I agree, it needs to change. I've killed him 7x now and got loot 1x.... I spend about half of each fight healing and the other half doing damage. As it stands now the reason to go to the center is to hope for a bunch of Portal chests, Molag Bal's ghostly impersonation is just there to be an annoyance.

Valorin · September 2015

I really don't have a clue how loot distribution really works, but everytime there have been more than 12 players killing the simulacrum, somebody didn't get loot. The fact that those people were the same everytime means there is something like a damagecap or so... Then again somebody disconnected and came back online just when Molag went down and that player got loot. In the sewers I am a tank with a Greatsword as sidearm, but well, I am not a great Damagedealer. Though I only missed one time on loot.
As others said before, I think this loot system is more like gambling on a public boss. The rare drops, yeah, those should be like gambling, but getting no loot for your effort is just unrewarding. This shouldn't be a DPS race or something and it also leads to fights among players. When randoms joined the fight I once explained that others won't get loot if they join the fight, and the day after people didn't like my attitude because I wanted to keep the bosses for myself or my group. Yeah, I wanted our tanks and healers to get loot for their effort. That's my attitude.
Please Zenimax, change this senseless source of frustration. Loot for all please.

Ley · September 2015

Personofsecrets wrote: »

Ley wrote: »

Loot goes to the 12 players who either dealt the most damage or did the most healing... If they just added an additional factor for players who received the most damage from said mob, then the problem is solved and being a tank becomes as rewarding as any other role.

That is a tough on, but could work. I think that unmitigated damage would have to be the number that is used.

Yea unmitigated, I don't think it could work any other way.

LordSemaj · September 2015

Final Fantasy XIV actually has the best contribution system in my opinion.

The system works off of threat and is groupwide. Whichever teams do the minimum amount of "threat" receive the credit for downing the boss. This actually makes Tanks the best threat generators with Healers near raid numbers of people being fairly good as well. DPS are almost AWFUL at getting boss credit but we still use them for their damage to actually down the boss in the first place at a reasonable rate.

I think ESO should do similar. Have contribution be shared with the group and based off threat. This makes tanks and healers the most valuable members of any public fighting team for credit while DPS still are valuable for their damage.

TotterTates · September 2015

Tank here... it's been this way since beta. I've gotten so used to it that I rarely think about the loot that I miss, until someone else brings it up.

Now that someone has, I'm getting frustrated again. This needs to be looked at... perhaps a well written thread of its own?

k2blader · September 2015

@ZOS_GinaBruno

Hi Gina, could we get clarification on loot rules for IC?

Who gets loot? Is it:

top 12 DPS AND top 12 heals
top 12 DPS OR heals
12 random people who participated?
Something else?

I understand Zenimax wants to discourage zerging, but grouping intelligently (e.g. 12-person max size) is not properly rewarded. At the same time, soloers and smaller groups who happen to be in the area and join the fight should have the same ability to get loot separate from 12-man groups. None of us can control who happens to be in the vicinity of a boss at any given time. To not get loot when you've spent a good amount of time and effort getting/being there is the pits.

Paazhahdrimaak · September 2015

I've run it a few times, and normally no one in my group gets a drop.

Once we had a wonderful 12man group, did all three portals, did 50% of molag when a 5man group joins. No one in my group who did everything, got a drop. But this ragtag group of 5 got all the drops. Why is that? That's messed up.

Paazhahdrimaak · September 2015

mzapkeneb18_ESO wrote: »

Tank here...
didn't even know that there is any loot at all.
Though it just archivement...

This almost mad me cry.. I really hope you get a drop next time

Jammer480 · October 2015

k2blader wrote: »

@ZOS_GinaBruno

Hi Gina, could we get clarification on loot rules for IC?

Who gets loot? Is it:
top 12 DPS AND top 12 heals

top 12 DPS OR heals

12 random people who participated?

Something else?

I understand Zenimax wants to discourage zerging, but grouping intelligently (e.g. 12-person max size) is not properly rewarded. At the same time, soloers and smaller groups who happen to be in the area and join the fight should have the same ability to get loot separate from 12-man groups. None of us can control who happens to be in the vicinity of a boss at any given time. To not get loot when you've spent a good amount of time and effort getting/being there is the pits.

Did you get a reply?

My only issue with equal loot distribution is that some lazy losers will group and then do minimal to assist in the battle to the extent of sitting in the corner.

SleepyTroll · October 2015

Why do you need a tank in the sewers? Also how is it kill stealing if he atacked it first? If you have a group of 12 you sure as hell don't need a tank in the sewers.

Jura23 · October 2015

I strongly disagree with the term "kill stealer". There is no such thing. You don't own that boss, everybody has the right to come and hit him equal to yours.

iliatha · October 2015

manavortex wrote: »

Or simply remove the 12 players limitation, which is utterly frustrating on a boss in a public location with a 20 minutes + respawn timer. But please, do something about the situation, because as a team-oriented player it's driving me nuts.

Why dont you just go farm with 2-10 ppl ? Problem solved.. ^

AlnilamE · October 2015

OP: In the specific case you described, I would report for griefing.

If you really want to ensure everybody gets loot, then as others suggested, form a group of 10.

Without knowing how the loot drops are calculated, it's difficult to suggest how it can be changed to be fairer to tanks.

Asherons_Call · October 2015

I've been in a group that has killed molag probably 10 times, and have yet to see his corpse highlighted yellow

SleepyTroll · October 2015

AlnilamE wrote: »

OP: In the specific case you described, I would report for griefing.

If you really want to ensure everybody gets loot, then as others suggested, form a group of 10.

Without knowing how the loot drops are calculated, it's difficult to suggest how it can be changed to be fairer to tanks.

Are you serious? How is that griefing?

Molag_Crow · October 2015

True, wtf is with that...

FriedEggSandwich · October 2015

Trashy Boy wrote: »

I agree with you and would like to see something done, good luck with that. I absolutely hate leeches and kill/loot thieves - which is more or less what they are.

I got screamed at in zone chat once for just tagging along with a group. I'm a sorc so have decent single target dps. I had been tagging along since earlier in the sewers and helped the group take down the dolmens without anyone complaining. It was after we had killed molag that he went beserk. I had no idea about the loot limit. The guy properly went at me accusing me of pulling all the mobs and calling me stupid and worse. I actually got to loot molag but he didn't even complain about loot, he was so angry he just kept insulting me in zone and then blocked me but let me know that in zone first.

Please don't be that guy. Molag isn't instanced so anyone that turns up and has payed for the game has the right to fight. If you're not getting loot then sort your dps out. Now that I know there's a loot limit I wouldn't do that again, but I had just as much right to be there as anyone.

cerrudo33 · October 2015

The only way I see to fix this without leaving it heavily opened to exploitation would be to change how the loot distribution calculations are done with some "if...then..." Code sets along these lines:

1. X amount of time engaged in mob combat based on average encounter time
2. X% of damage done and/or dmg mitigated/received (direct tank stat) or healing done
3. Still alive? Meaning previous reqs are met and still in the "radius" and not in death screen/running back

Something along those lines so random people can't tag once and get loot but tanks chars can still get loot and not tied the arbitrary dmg done. Highly doubt that will ever happen as it would take a lot of metrics research to establish norms for mitigation, healing, dmg and encounter time averages to give everyone a chance at loot based on their role while still keeping it limited so not EVERYONE will get loot but opens all roles to getting something.

ItsMeToo · October 2015

If someone can solo IC, congrats. Play the way you want.