Farming Molag Bal - loot distribution, groups and kill stealers

manavortex · September 2015

Dear community, dear Divines,

I've been farming Molag Bal during most of the day with a group of 6-12 people to finally get my hands on the Soul Shriven skin (I won't complain about drop rates, RNGesus requires more sacrifices), and during that time I've been noticing something that upsets me greatly. I can't believe that this is how Zenimaxx has intended it to work, since it actually punishes those who group up to achieve something and favours ***. It's not about PVP either, that's a completely different topic.

I'm talking about a group of 12, happily farming Molag Bal. As we all know, only 12 people can loot Molly. I find that general decision questionable as it is, but let's just assume that as axiom. Well, those twelve people have healers and a tank, they took the effort to build a group, waited for each other, community stuff. I happen to know, since I'm the one constantly building these groups.

Then, as Molag Bal spawns, a solo player rushes in and starts hitting him. Hard. He has a name like "ROFLCOPTERleet" or "yourMOTHER", wears the Royal Court Jester costume and deals ridiculous amounts of damage. Molag Bal falls in no time. Everyone loots.
Everyone? No. Our tank doesn't.

How is this supposed to be working as intended? It's utterly frustrating. Especially because said player, when informed about that loot behaviour, responds kindly with something like "lol suckers".

My suggestion for that would be to slightly change the loot distribution mechanic. Put in another number - take the total damage/healing done of a group, divide it by the number of the players, and multiply each players loot score by a percentage or something. Or simply remove the 12 players limitation, which is utterly frustrating on a boss in a public location with a 20 minutes + respawn timer. But please, do something about the situation, because as a team-oriented player it's driving me nuts.

Trashy Boy · September 2015

I agree with you and would like to see something done, good luck with that. I absolutely hate leeches and kill/loot thieves - which is more or less what they are.

Rosveen · September 2015

There's something horribly wrong with this game if Molag Bal can be farmed.

Mojmir · September 2015

Rosveen wrote: »

There's something horribly wrong with this game if Molag Bal can be farmed.

They're talking about the center of the sewers,if you rtake down all the portals, a version of him spawns.

BlackEar · September 2015

I wonder why they even put a loot limitation on it to begin with.

Just remove it. Everyone is happy.

Personofsecrets · September 2015

Thank you @manavortex for the thread. This loot mechanic is something that I have drawn attention to as well due to it's poor ability to reward tanks.

What I expect to see is more frustrated tanks posting here and those who don't care about tanking to straw man your argument.

@Rosveen , for example, seems to have already tried to poison the debate by insinuating that not only is farming bad, but that farming is the main gist of your discussion.

Also keep an eye out for those who will tell you that players shouldn't be given rewards on a silver platter. Nobody will say that they want rewards to be easy to obtain and nobody will even necessarily want things to be easy to obtain, but you can bet that someone will set up that straw man argument by putting those words into your mouth.

Have fun in the sewers.

Rosveen · September 2015

Personofsecrets wrote: »

@Rosveen , for example, seems to have already tried to poison the debate by insinuating that not only is farming bad, but that farming is the main gist of your discussion.

wut?

I find it amusing that the Daedric Prince (or its manifestation) of Domination and King of Sexual Assault (thanks forum censor!) can be repeatedly demolished in five seconds by hundreds of adventurers every day. How the mighty have fallen.

I have nothing against farming. Farming is at the heart of this game. How else would anyone get all these shiny items tucked away behind the RNG wall?

hrothbern · September 2015

Rosveen wrote: »

There's something horribly wrong with this game if Molag Bal can be farmed.

Absolutely, killing Molag Bal should be a real effort !
Molag Bal takes some time, but does little damage, no risk for high DPS characters. Only at the end he does some real damage.

And that brings me to:
Why is the damage of Molag Bal not much higher?
in a long distance range, red spots slowly everywhere following players, forcing to kite (time to DD!) and killing all the time the glass canons characters, that have consequently to self rezz, losing time, losing Damage done in the score for the loot
The big zerg, now just standing & spamming, scattered

Would hit two issue, lore and looting in one stroke.

Personofsecrets · September 2015

Rosveen wrote: »

Personofsecrets wrote: »

@Rosveen , for example, seems to have already tried to poison the debate by insinuating that not only is farming bad, but that farming is the main gist of your discussion.

wut?

I find it amusing that the Daedric Prince (or its manifestation) of Domination and King of Sexual Assault (thanks forum censor!) can be repeatedly demolished in five seconds by hundreds of adventurers every day. How the mighty have fallen.

I have nothing against farming. Farming is at the heart of this game. How else would anyone get all these shiny items tucked away behind the RNG wall?

As amusing as it may be, as you say, farming is at the heart of this game. Perhaps the main threat of the Molag Bal encounter is being ambushed by another factions team. That being said, it looks like the main threat to getting loot from Mr. Bal is actually having players of the same faction interrupting a teams fight and taking part of the loot.

Teridaxus · September 2015

Tank here...
didn't even know that there is any loot at all.
Though it just archivement...

Personofsecrets · September 2015

mzapkeneb18_ESO wrote: »

Tank here...
didn't even know that there is any loot at all.
Though it just archivement...

@ZOS_RichLambert

hrothbern · September 2015

mzapkeneb18_ESO wrote: »

Tank here...
didn't even know that there is any loot at all.
Though it just archivement...

haha
I thought the same the first time...
I am a tank as well, and not changing my role to DD forever with my nr 1 character !!!
Get only loot in smaller groups
Join zergs for the AP and the fun

whereby regrettably, the most players in the small pug groups do not always want to do Molag Bal when we reach the center... afraid....

Personofsecrets · September 2015

@manavortex , I think that your suggestion of removing the 12 player loot limitation is the best idea. That way, if there are multiple groups that do a similar amount of work leading up to and against Molage Bal, then both groups get what they came for.

Let's say that 500 people get loot from Molag Bal. So what? Most of the time Molag Bal will be dropping trophies. A pet and skin being given out more often certainly isn't going to break the game. The hakeijo rune could use the drop in price that such a new loot system could cause.

manavortex · September 2015

@Personofsecrets, thanks for the thanks, I guess.

I'm enjoying my time in the sewers as much as a role-player can enjoy their times in a stinking skeever hole full of n'wah.

I wonder why they even put a loot limitation on it to begin with.

Probably to make sure that not every player awake is lurking around in the centre. Still, I think 12 people is too little, given how many players there _are_.

manny254 · September 2015

Why do you have a tank for a mob that can not be taunted.BTW got the costume on about the third time I did it, and it is pretty lame.Although if you want to scare someone you can wear it without cloths on.

manavortex · September 2015

Because some people do like playing tanks.
And good for you, I guess, but that's entirely not the point, so back to topic.

manny254 · September 2015

manavortex wrote: »

Because some people do like playing tanks.
And good for you, I guess, but that's entirely not the point, so back to topic.

You talk about taking effort to build your group, but can this be accurate for the content you are completing. You do not need a tank for, and in fact the boss mobs in the middle event can not be taunted. Sounds like you need a secondary set of gear to use for dps. You do not need to be an all star dps, but frankly you are not getting credit because you are not contributing.

manavortex · September 2015

I'm not a tank.

This is not about me, or anyone "not contributing". Every member of the group is contributing. That's because it's a group effort.

This is not about anyone under performing or whatever. It's about people being jerks and being rewarded for that, so I'd appreciate it if you would talk about that instead of minmaxing.

manny254 · September 2015

manavortex wrote: »

I'm not a tank.

This is not about me, or anyone "not contributing". Every member of the group is contributing. That's because it's a group effort.

This is not about anyone under performing or whatever. It's about people being jerks and being rewarded for that, so I'd appreciate it if you would talk about that instead of minmaxing.

How are people being jerks? Please explain. If memory serves the way it works is something like this. The 10 players that contribute the most dps along with the 2 healers that contribute the most. I could be wrong about this, but this how I remember it working. There is no being a jerk. The 12 players that contributed the most to the boss kill get credit.

The purpose of this is to discourage players from bringing so many people that the fight becomes trivial. Even with only 12 the boss fight is trivial as I have personally completed it with as little as 3 people before. Yes you can group, but this games entire grouping system is about risk vs reward. From xp, ap, and telvar stone will all give more in a group of 2 opposed to as larger one.

Troneon · September 2015

There is a counter to this.

Everyone bring mage guild skill radiant mage light and detection potions.

Then whole group sweeps all center area and surrounding areas before starting, during and towards the end of the molag bal event. Reveal any hidden players and kill them before starting.

It's not a perfect counter but there never is a "perfect" one, but it works most of the time.

I agree though the loot limitation is bull****.

manny254 · September 2015

Troneon wrote: »

There is a counter to this.

Everyone bring mage guild skill radiant mage light and detection potions.

Then whole group sweeps all center area and surrounding areas before starting, during and towards the end of the molag bal event. Reveal any hidden players and kill them before starting.

It's not a perfect counter but there never is a "perfect" one, but it works most of the time.

I agree though the loot limitation is bull****.

He is not talking about enemy players. He is complaining about how players of the same faction dealing more damage than players in his group. This results in not all players getting credit in the group. This is frankly not an issue, and anyone who played in the days of "grindlorn" understands why these functions are in place.

manavortex · September 2015

What I am complaining about is that those people obviously aren't capable of or willing to a) completing the event on their own or b) organising an own group, which takes effort and communication. Instead they abuse the effort of those who actually group up and coordinate themselves, thus rendering said effort useless for one of the twelve people. They are taking something away from others who have spent more time and effort.

And they are actually being rewarded for it, which encourages this sort of behaviour. I won't do it, and I can understand why people chose to do it, since it makes sense for them, but I don't like it.

That's my problem with it.

Ahzek · September 2015

The biggest effort to organize a group to take down baby bals is to to /w 1-2 friends and ask them to come along. The only real threat of the fight are enemy players and the *poof* at the end anyways, since all other mechanics are incredibly trivial.

RunAway · September 2015

I think the loot goes to the 12 people who do the most DPS/Healing, regardless of whether they are in a group/your group or not.

Personofsecrets · September 2015

manny254 wrote: »

manavortex wrote: »

Because some people do like playing tanks.
And good for you, I guess, but that's entirely not the point, so back to topic.

You talk about taking effort to build your group, but can this be accurate for the content you are completing. You do not need a tank for, and in fact the boss mobs in the middle event can not be taunted. Sounds like you need a secondary set of gear to use for dps. You do not need to be an all star dps, but frankly you are not getting credit because you are not contributing.

A tank is a great boon to the sewers and, yes, Molag Bal can be taunted.

manny254 · September 2015

manavortex wrote: »

What I am complaining about is that those people obviously aren't capable of or willing to a) completing the event on their own or b) organising an own group, which takes effort and communication. Instead they abuse the effort of those who actually group up and coordinate themselves, thus rendering said effort useless for one of the twelve people. They are taking something away from others who have spent more time and effort.

And they are actually being rewarded for it, which encourages this sort of behaviour. I won't do it, and I can understand why people chose to do it, since it makes sense for them, but I don't like it.

That's my problem with it.

So if I have 3 people. You have a group of 12. You are inherently entitled to the event and I am not? It does not take much effort or communication to kill this boss. If you do not earn one of the 12 slots on the drop list you do not deserve the drop. Plain and simple don't come and look for a participation trophy.

MaxwellC · September 2015

I run solo all the time but as a Tank DPS I don't do a huge amount of damage that it makes impossible for the tank to deal 10k damage (which I believe is the threshold) for gaining loot on huge health bosses like molag.

In other words no offense to you or your friend but your tank was just holding his shield and spamming buff abilities so in other words he/she is bad.

Keepercraft · September 2015

OH, you want some loot? Nope, Zenimax.

There are bigger problems, like zombie spot at blue side IC. :P

Robo_Hobo · September 2015

Im curious, Ive been hearing a lot about people fighting Molag Bal in Imperial city. Could someone explain the details behind the explanation for the encounter? Like is it a legit fully summoned, full size and power Molag Bal similar to how Mehrunes Dagon was at the end of Oblivion? (And like molag at the end of the mq of this game, in his own realm) Or is it just like, an aspect of Molag that was able to manifest itself in the imperial city?

Xendyn · September 2015

Robo_Hobo wrote: »

Im curious, Ive been hearing a lot about people fighting Molag Bal in Imperial city. Could someone explain the details behind the explanation for the encounter? Like is it a legit fully summoned, full size and power Molag Bal similar to how Mehrunes Dagon was at the end of Oblivion? (And like molag at the end of the mq of this game, in his own realm) Or is it just like, an aspect of Molag that was able to manifest itself in the imperial city?

It is called the Simulacrum of Molag Bal. So your second guess is pretty much right.

Personofsecrets · September 2015

manny254 wrote: »

manavortex wrote: »

What I am complaining about is that those people obviously aren't capable of or willing to a) completing the event on their own or b) organising an own group, which takes effort and communication. Instead they abuse the effort of those who actually group up and coordinate themselves, thus rendering said effort useless for one of the twelve people. They are taking something away from others who have spent more time and effort.

And they are actually being rewarded for it, which encourages this sort of behaviour. I won't do it, and I can understand why people chose to do it, since it makes sense for them, but I don't like it.

That's my problem with it.

So if I have 3 people. You have a group of 12. You are inherently entitled to the event and I am not? It does not take much effort or communication to kill this boss. If you do not earn one of the 12 slots on the drop list you do not deserve the drop. Plain and simple don't come and look for a participation trophy.

As far as tanking goes, earning loot is totally done by the tank, but by a technicality of how loot is distributed, tanks often get nothing for their hard work. Just think for a moment about the extra damage that gets done because of the tanks aggro and debuffs. That damage can easily add up to being more than what a DPS does, but, unfairly, the game fails to take this virtual damage into account when rewarding players.

As far as group play goes, yes, every member of the team is entitled to the loot that they collectively work for. Again, it is unfair that a team can work for loot, but a random player can leach off of that work and be rewarded for doing so.

Look at an earlier post where I wrote that the discussion on this thread would be brought down with straw man arguments. I don't care about your 3 person group, but never did I write that your group shouldn't get loot if you choose to leach off of a larger group. As I wrote in a response to the original poster, everyone who fights Molag Bal being able to get loot, despite the number of people involved in the fight, would be fine. Rather than straw manning my argument, you should understand that we are for the loot system being changed and not limited to 12 people only. Here is a rule of thumb as well, those doing the straw manning usually aren't thinking about the discussion.