Lore unfriendly change in Motifs

EposSilver · September 2015

To what point and purpose did you change the names of the motifs from their racial names, (Altmer, Dunmer), to common names, (High Elf, Dark Elf)? It's not THAT big a deal, but for those of us that have been playing Elder Scrolls since Arena, Daggerfall, and Battlespire, it kinda ruins some of the lore and immersion for the game...

Mettaricana · September 2015

...I are you guys really out of stuff to complain about.... its because players that are not lore and immersion seekers don't always know what each race is called off the top of their head just be glad you have access to the racial styles and not orc is the only heavy armor crap

GreySix · September 2015

Lore unfriendly?

That ship sailed quite a bit ago, my friend.

Rosveen · September 2015

I was not aware they ever had different names. Shows how much I care. Anyway, high elf, wood elf etc. are perfectly lore-friendly terms. It's how humans in Tamriel call these races.

MyM16sHot · September 2015

EposSilver wrote: »

To what point and purpose did you change the names of the motifs from their racial names, (Altmer, Dunmer), to common names, (High Elf, Dark Elf)? It's not THAT big a deal, but for those of us that have been playing Elder Scrolls since Arena, Daggerfall, and Battlespire, it kinda ruins some of the lore and immersion for the game...

I'm totally with you man. I LOVE this franchise. Happy Fredas...

HungryHobo · September 2015

south-park-s19e01c03-you-pc-bro_16x9.jpg?quality=0.8

You lore-friendly bro?

nimander99 · September 2015

MyM16sHot wrote: »

EposSilver wrote: »

To what point and purpose did you change the names of the motifs from their racial names, (Altmer, Dunmer), to common names, (High Elf, Dark Elf)? It's not THAT big a deal, but for those of us that have been playing Elder Scrolls since Arena, Daggerfall, and Battlespire, it kinda ruins some of the lore and immersion for the game...

I'm totally with you man. I LOVE this franchise. Happy Fredas...

Wow, how did this change slip past me... this is terribad, when I get home from work I'm heading straight to these forums to flame!

Happy Fredas!

theroyalestpythonnub18_ESO · September 2015

Rosveen wrote: »

I was not aware they ever had different names. Shows how much I care. Anyway, high elf, wood elf etc. are perfectly lore-friendly terms. It's how humans in Tamriel call these races.

Yeah I'm pretty certain they've been that way since live. The lore books themselves read Racial Motifs 1: The High Elves,... etc.

...not sure what the issue is.

nimander99 · September 2015

theroyalestpythonnub18_ESO wrote: »

Rosveen wrote: »

I was not aware they ever had different names. Shows how much I care. Anyway, high elf, wood elf etc. are perfectly lore-friendly terms. It's how humans in Tamriel call these races.

Yeah I'm pretty certain they've been that way since live. The lore books themselves read Racial Motifs 1: The High Elves,... etc.

...not sure what the issue is.

Yeah this^ I didn't actually miss it in my last post, t'was sarcasm laced with humor

Danikat · September 2015

As far as I remember both names are used interchangeably by characters in all the TES games. Even members of those races will use the 'human names' sometimes (e.g. dunmer calling themselves dark elves).

So they're both equally lore friendly, just different languages.

Maotti · September 2015

This change was so noticeable that i didn't notice it until now. When i read this thread.

Gidorick · September 2015

EposSilver wrote: »

To what point and purpose did you change the names of the motifs from their racial names, (Altmer, Dunmer), to common names, (High Elf, Dark Elf)? It's not THAT big a deal, but for those of us that have been playing Elder Scrolls since Arena, Daggerfall, and Battlespire, it kinda ruins some of the lore and immersion for the game...

They actually did that? So now they are actively catering to those who don't give a crap about ESO's history or lore?

How is this not MORE confusing when the races are called Altmer and Dunmer in character creation?

Moonscythe · September 2015

Danikat wrote: »

As far as I remember both names are used interchangeably by characters in all the TES games. Even members of those races will use the 'human names' sometimes (e.g. dunmer calling themselves dark elves).

So they're both equally lore friendly, just different languages.

M'Aiq's dialog on Kenarthi's Roost has always been the same

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FRhdlk4kK-4

Recremen · September 2015

EposSilver wrote: »

To what point and purpose did you change the names of the motifs from their racial names, (Altmer, Dunmer), to common names, (High Elf, Dark Elf)? It's not THAT big a deal, but for those of us that have been playing Elder Scrolls since Arena, Daggerfall, and Battlespire, it kinda ruins some of the lore and immersion for the game...

But the terms have been interchangeable with each other since Morrowind at least. I'm pretty sure it goes all the way back. They still use the terms "mer" and all the various additives like Dun or Orsi, so there isn't anything to worry about.

Gidorick · September 2015

Recremen wrote: »

EposSilver wrote: »

To what point and purpose did you change the names of the motifs from their racial names, (Altmer, Dunmer), to common names, (High Elf, Dark Elf)? It's not THAT big a deal, but for those of us that have been playing Elder Scrolls since Arena, Daggerfall, and Battlespire, it kinda ruins some of the lore and immersion for the game...

But the terms have been interchangeable with each other since Morrowind at least. I'm pretty sure it goes all the way back. They still use the terms "mer" and all the various additives like Dun or Orsi, so there isn't anything to worry about.

Sure they've been interchangeable, but how does it makes sense in context of Motifs? What would the rationalization be to change the name of the Motif?

And it's actually interesting how few times Orcs are actually called Orsimer.

Zorrashi · September 2015

It's actually not lore unfriendly. While "mer" is one way to describe the races of elves in Tamriel, the use of their common term equivalents are used as well.

For example, a high elf in the summerset isles may call his race "Altmer" more often, the nords of Skyrim are more privy to calling them "High Elves" because it is similar to their common tongue (and comprehension. Few nords actively study Aldmeri language). The two are technically interchangeable but depending on the region one may deem one term more proper than the other.

Mighty_oakk · September 2015

Eh once you see a scarecrow riding a frost pony this won't seem that lore breaking

Tonturri · September 2015

Let's just change the names of all the motifs to "Elf", and there will be no indication of which type of elf the motif is actually talking about.

Iluvrien · September 2015

Recremen wrote: »

EposSilver wrote: »

To what point and purpose did you change the names of the motifs from their racial names, (Altmer, Dunmer), to common names, (High Elf, Dark Elf)? It's not THAT big a deal, but for those of us that have been playing Elder Scrolls since Arena, Daggerfall, and Battlespire, it kinda ruins some of the lore and immersion for the game...

But the terms have been interchangeable with each other since Morrowind at least. I'm pretty sure it goes all the way back. They still use the terms "mer" and all the various additives like Dun or Orsi, so there isn't anything to worry about.

Have they actually been interchangeable though? I am sure I remember are least a few Dunmer who strongly objected to being called "Dark Elf" and even had a discussion option relating directly to that.

So perhaps this is more a question of whether the Motif books would carry those names because that is what their author would have used... rather than what the people actually call themselves.

Recremen · September 2015

Gidorick wrote: »

Recremen wrote: »

EposSilver wrote: »

To what point and purpose did you change the names of the motifs from their racial names, (Altmer, Dunmer), to common names, (High Elf, Dark Elf)? It's not THAT big a deal, but for those of us that have been playing Elder Scrolls since Arena, Daggerfall, and Battlespire, it kinda ruins some of the lore and immersion for the game...

But the terms have been interchangeable with each other since Morrowind at least. I'm pretty sure it goes all the way back. They still use the terms "mer" and all the various additives like Dun or Orsi, so there isn't anything to worry about.

Sure they've been interchangeable, but how does it makes sense in context of Motifs? What would the rationalization be to change the name of the Motif?

And it's actually interesting how few times Orcs are actually called Orsimer.

Easy, either the author ( presume an Imperial based on her name) or the publisher changed the title to better accommodate a wider reading audience. Even within the works themselves (let us not forget that the motif books are just that, books you can read) the words Mer and Elf are freely interchanged. Here is the link to the full current collection.

In a stunning twist of fate or poetic provenance, the in-game and out-of-game reason for changing the book titles are one in the same.

Recremen · September 2015

Iluvrien wrote: »

Recremen wrote: »

EposSilver wrote: »

To what point and purpose did you change the names of the motifs from their racial names, (Altmer, Dunmer), to common names, (High Elf, Dark Elf)? It's not THAT big a deal, but for those of us that have been playing Elder Scrolls since Arena, Daggerfall, and Battlespire, it kinda ruins some of the lore and immersion for the game...

But the terms have been interchangeable with each other since Morrowind at least. I'm pretty sure it goes all the way back. They still use the terms "mer" and all the various additives like Dun or Orsi, so there isn't anything to worry about.

Have they actually been interchangeable though? I am sure I remember are least a few Dunmer who strongly objected to being called "Dark Elf" and even had a discussion option relating directly to that.

So perhaps this is more a question of whether the Motif books would carry those names because that is what their author would have used... rather than what the people actually call themselves.

As I've provided for another poser, here's a link to the motifs and their authors. It appears that the one who wrote the first 10 books is an Imperial woman, so I imagine she would be quite fine with changing the titles to reach a wider reading audience. Or her publisher, whoever's the one concerned about making money.

Gidorick · September 2015

Recremen wrote: »

Gidorick wrote: »

Recremen wrote: »

EposSilver wrote: »

To what point and purpose did you change the names of the motifs from their racial names, (Altmer, Dunmer), to common names, (High Elf, Dark Elf)? It's not THAT big a deal, but for those of us that have been playing Elder Scrolls since Arena, Daggerfall, and Battlespire, it kinda ruins some of the lore and immersion for the game...

But the terms have been interchangeable with each other since Morrowind at least. I'm pretty sure it goes all the way back. They still use the terms "mer" and all the various additives like Dun or Orsi, so there isn't anything to worry about.

Sure they've been interchangeable, but how does it makes sense in context of Motifs? What would the rationalization be to change the name of the Motif?

And it's actually interesting how few times Orcs are actually called Orsimer.

Easy, either the author ( presume an Imperial based on her name) or the publisher changed the title to better accommodate a wider reading audience. Even within the works themselves (let us not forget that the motif books are just that, books you can read) the words Mer and Elf are freely interchanged. Here is the link to the full current collection.

In a stunning twist of fate or poetic provenance, the in-game and out-of-game reason for changing the book titles are one in the same.

Thanks for the link! I agree it's a small thing to change. My concern is kind of more along the lines that they are spending time on changing things like this... Wonder why they didn't change Dwemer to Dwarves.

AngryNord · September 2015

Isn't the backstory that these motifs were collected by an Imperial? Makes perfect sense to use the Mannish names then.

AngryNord · September 2015

Oh - and I am pretty certain that Arena only used "Dark Ell", "High Elf", etc... the -mer names may in fact not have been introduced until Morrowind

Recremen · September 2015

Gidorick wrote: »

Recremen wrote: »

Gidorick wrote: »

Recremen wrote: »

EposSilver wrote: »

To what point and purpose did you change the names of the motifs from their racial names, (Altmer, Dunmer), to common names, (High Elf, Dark Elf)? It's not THAT big a deal, but for those of us that have been playing Elder Scrolls since Arena, Daggerfall, and Battlespire, it kinda ruins some of the lore and immersion for the game...

But the terms have been interchangeable with each other since Morrowind at least. I'm pretty sure it goes all the way back. They still use the terms "mer" and all the various additives like Dun or Orsi, so there isn't anything to worry about.

Sure they've been interchangeable, but how does it makes sense in context of Motifs? What would the rationalization be to change the name of the Motif?

And it's actually interesting how few times Orcs are actually called Orsimer.

Easy, either the author ( presume an Imperial based on her name) or the publisher changed the title to better accommodate a wider reading audience. Even within the works themselves (let us not forget that the motif books are just that, books you can read) the words Mer and Elf are freely interchanged. Here is the link to the full current collection.

In a stunning twist of fate or poetic provenance, the in-game and out-of-game reason for changing the book titles are one in the same.

Thanks for the link! I agree it's a small thing to change. My concern is kind of more along the lines that they are spending time on changing things like this... Wonder why they didn't change Dwemer to Dwarves.

Ha ha, they've spent the better part of forever since Morrowind to distance 'Dwarves' from the lexicon. Part of the carving out of their own aesthetic niche instead of following the generic fantasy model. This still holds true today for a lot of the writing, but I'm starting to sense some rather unfortunate slippage towards the boring. I really hope that gets corrected.

Teiji · September 2015

It's not a Lore unfriendly change. Altmer are commonly referred to as high elves, Bosmer as wood elves.

There's honestly no problem, at all. It helps keep less lore-informed players in the loop too.

I remember seeing how how Xivkyn were complained about as a lore-breaking race when Dremora are named according to their class and social standing within their established society. Practically nonsensical as Altmer are not referred to as Annunaki nor are Bosmer referred to as El Chupacabra; they retain the names they've had in the Elder Scrolls universe.

Humble apologies to our beloved mods, these threads reflect badly upon us as a community, I can only imagine how bewildered Lore-ance is.

JD2013 · September 2015

Lore unfriendly? I just . . . Is there anything in this game that people won't complain about?

Also been playing ES since Arena. High Elf, Dark Elf etc are perfectly lore friendly names for the races that have been used before. Many times.

When they start calling races things like "lizard people" and "talking kittehs" then that's definitely not Lore friendly.

theroyalestpythonnub18_ESO · September 2015

Gidorick wrote: »

Recremen wrote: »

Gidorick wrote: »

Recremen wrote: »

EposSilver wrote: »

To what point and purpose did you change the names of the motifs from their racial names, (Altmer, Dunmer), to common names, (High Elf, Dark Elf)? It's not THAT big a deal, but for those of us that have been playing Elder Scrolls since Arena, Daggerfall, and Battlespire, it kinda ruins some of the lore and immersion for the game...

But the terms have been interchangeable with each other since Morrowind at least. I'm pretty sure it goes all the way back. They still use the terms "mer" and all the various additives like Dun or Orsi, so there isn't anything to worry about.

Sure they've been interchangeable, but how does it makes sense in context of Motifs? What would the rationalization be to change the name of the Motif?

And it's actually interesting how few times Orcs are actually called Orsimer.

Easy, either the author ( presume an Imperial based on her name) or the publisher changed the title to better accommodate a wider reading audience. Even within the works themselves (let us not forget that the motif books are just that, books you can read) the words Mer and Elf are freely interchanged. Here is the link to the full current collection.

In a stunning twist of fate or poetic provenance, the in-game and out-of-game reason for changing the book titles are one in the same.

Thanks for the link! I agree it's a small thing to change. My concern is kind of more along the lines that they are spending time on changing things like this... Wonder why they didn't change Dwemer to Dwarves.

They didn't change anything. The motifs have always said "High Elf, Wood Elf, Dark Elf, Orc," at least since the public Beta. Either OP is confused, or we're all misinterpreting their meaning.

Rampeal · September 2015

Anytime anything is slightly changed or New lore added there is constant complaints and screams of "LORE". Just read some of the old forums of people complaining about Oblivion and Skyrim. ZOS is not the first to bring the wrath of the "Purest" and they will not be the last.

Gidorick · September 2015

theroyalestpythonnub18_ESO wrote: »

Gidorick wrote: »

Recremen wrote: »

Gidorick wrote: »

Recremen wrote: »

EposSilver wrote: »

To what point and purpose did you change the names of the motifs from their racial names, (Altmer, Dunmer), to common names, (High Elf, Dark Elf)? It's not THAT big a deal, but for those of us that have been playing Elder Scrolls since Arena, Daggerfall, and Battlespire, it kinda ruins some of the lore and immersion for the game...

But the terms have been interchangeable with each other since Morrowind at least. I'm pretty sure it goes all the way back. They still use the terms "mer" and all the various additives like Dun or Orsi, so there isn't anything to worry about.

Sure they've been interchangeable, but how does it makes sense in context of Motifs? What would the rationalization be to change the name of the Motif?

And it's actually interesting how few times Orcs are actually called Orsimer.

Easy, either the author ( presume an Imperial based on her name) or the publisher changed the title to better accommodate a wider reading audience. Even within the works themselves (let us not forget that the motif books are just that, books you can read) the words Mer and Elf are freely interchanged. Here is the link to the full current collection.

In a stunning twist of fate or poetic provenance, the in-game and out-of-game reason for changing the book titles are one in the same.

Thanks for the link! I agree it's a small thing to change. My concern is kind of more along the lines that they are spending time on changing things like this... Wonder why they didn't change Dwemer to Dwarves.

They didn't change anything. The motifs have always said "High Elf, Wood Elf, Dark Elf, Orc," at least since the public Beta. Either OP is confused, or we're all misinterpreting their meaning.

And I apparently just never paid any attention! Thanks for clarifying this for me.

Robo_Hobo · September 2015

Different people call them different things. Neither terms are incorrect. If it were lore-unfriendly to have the Altmer motif called the High Elf motif, then likewise would the Argonian motif be lore-unfriendly for not being called the Saxheel.