[RANT] On MMO Gameplay Equality

Corellon Thromorin · September 2015

Hello everyone, I bought ESO a few weeks ago and I've been loving it. But it seems that the same isn't happening to everyone. Why? Because apparently people aren't happy when everyone isn't the same.
I can link many examples of people wanting to do Magical things with Stamina (which sadly ZOS did it by adding horrible stamina morphs), people wanting to ZOS add a new resource pool so it can be comparable to Magicka (which should not), and many other things that go against TES logic.
I ask you all that support those kind of ideas, what is the fun of a MMO where everyone is and can do the same? If I specialize in something, I can expect drawbacks in some occasions and advantage in others, and that's what makes games fun - you have to learn how to behave in those moments, even if it means fleeing. With Magicka I can be more effective with spells; with Stamina I can dodge and sprint more, plus being more effective with stamina skills and with Health I can get super tough.
That is basically the Holy Trinity of RPGs (and the three guardian constellations). The Mage, The Thief and The Warrior. And I know that there's that annoying argument about how "Elder Scrolls is about freedom of choice", which sadly isn't. You can be a lot of things in the Elder Scrolls series, but some things aren't as effective as others. In Daggerfall I can use magic with a dumb character but that doesn't mean it is very effective. BEING ABLE to do something doesn't mean that this something WORKS.
If in this game everyone was supposed to be the same there wouldn't be classes with different skills, there wouldn't be different weapons or even the Health, Magicka and Stamina (Fatigue) resource pools.
If you really want to play a game where you can be *good* doing whatever you want, Elder Scrolls isn't a series for you. But if you want a game where you can do a lot of things, but without being effective sometimes, welcome to TES.

So please, do not ruin this ES game because of your special snowflake needs.
Thank you for the attention.
PS: English isn't my first language, and I am self taught. Sorry for spelling and grammar errors, or anything like that.

jkemmery · September 2015

I don't think people asking for class balance is the same as someone asking for complete equality to satisfy their "special snowflake needs".

At various points in time, certain classes had distinct advantages over other classes. The case could still be argued, although it is better.

And guess what, the game is better for it, not worse. Since you've only been here a few weeks and haven't been playing for the last 18 months like many of the rest of us, you may want to consider spending more time in the game before you post an accusational rant.

I would be willing to bet that by the time you discover and get involved in veteran level PvP, you will be tempted to post how certain class abilities are being exploited.

Corellon Thromorin · September 2015

jkemmery wrote: »

I don't think people asking for class balance is the same as someone asking for complete equality to satisfy their "special snowflake needs".

At various points in time, certain classes had distinct advantages over other classes. The case could still be argued, although it is better.

And guess what, the game is better for it, not worse. Since you've only been here a few weeks and haven't been playing for the last 18 months like many of the rest of us, you may want to consider spending more time in the game before you post an accusational rant.

I would be willing to bet that by the time you discover and get involved in veteran level PvP, you will be tempted to post how certain class abilities are being exploited.

I understand that class balancing must be done, but I am not talking about this.

jkemmery · September 2015

Corellon Thromorin wrote: »

jkemmery wrote: »

I don't think people asking for class balance is the same as someone asking for complete equality to satisfy their "special snowflake needs".

At various points in time, certain classes had distinct advantages over other classes. The case could still be argued, although it is better.

And guess what, the game is better for it, not worse. Since you've only been here a few weeks and haven't been playing for the last 18 months like many of the rest of us, you may want to consider spending more time in the game before you post an accusational rant.

I would be willing to bet that by the time you discover and get involved in veteran level PvP, you will be tempted to post how certain class abilities are being exploited.

I understand that class balancing must be done, but I am not talking about this.

But that is EXACTLY what they are asking for. If that's not what you're talking about then can you explain further? I have only ever seen people asking for balance. 99% of the complaining on the forums is players wanting ZOS to address class imbalance. I'm not sure what you are ranting about if that's not the case ... I've never seen anyone asking for the ability to do everything with one character. The reason there are stamina morphs to certain abilities is because players were asking for it due to class imbalance.

Can you be more specific about what is upsetting you so much and provide examples if it's NOT about class balance?

Corellon Thromorin · September 2015

jkemmery wrote: »

Corellon Thromorin wrote: »

jkemmery wrote: »

I don't think people asking for class balance is the same as someone asking for complete equality to satisfy their "special snowflake needs".

At various points in time, certain classes had distinct advantages over other classes. The case could still be argued, although it is better.

And guess what, the game is better for it, not worse. Since you've only been here a few weeks and haven't been playing for the last 18 months like many of the rest of us, you may want to consider spending more time in the game before you post an accusational rant.

I would be willing to bet that by the time you discover and get involved in veteran level PvP, you will be tempted to post how certain class abilities are being exploited.

I understand that class balancing must be done, but I am not talking about this.

But that is EXACTLY what they are asking for. If that's not what you're talking about then can you explain further? I have only ever seen people asking for balance. 99% of the complaining on the forums is players wanting ZOS to address class imbalance. I'm not sure what you are ranting about if that's not the case ... I've never seen anyone asking for the ability to do everything with one character. The reason there are stamina morphs to certain abilities is because players were asking for it due to class imbalance.

Can you be more specific about what is upsetting you so much and provide examples if it's NOT about class balance?

"My magicka build can't roll dodge much, please let me dodge with magicka"
"My stamina build's spell damage is too low, please let me cast fireballs with my muscles"

This is what they are asking for. I am not talking about class balancing. I am talking about people that want to do everything and also be effective with everything.

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO · September 2015

This makes no sense have you even played the game?!? Doing magical things with stamina like turning my one arrow in to two dozen burning arrows that rain from the sky ( scorched earth )? Maybe you mean swinging my Two Handed Weapon and creating a general damage shield ( brawler ). How about turning one arrow into 20 and launching them with one draw of my bow ( arrow stray ).

You can do a little of magic with stamina at release wanting to use your class powers on a stamina is not lore breaking the game was magic everywhere cause stamina was pointless before 1.6. Plus what the heavy handed nerf to Stamina defense that pushed a pot of people back to magic builds.

If you want to do what ever you want and be *good* The Elder Scrolls is not the series for you F*CK out of here I was always a Heavy Armored Arcane Archer full heavy with a bound Bow and Daedric summons to fight with me in all the game don't have the magic of robes or the heavy damage that most heavy armor used had but I did have a great balance of the two that's exactly with the elder scrolls is. Play your way and make it work.

That's not what cookie cutter MMOs are if your if you deal damage why need a heal get a healer friend, what you heal do damage no that's not your job you can't have powers like that, ohh your a tank what would you need offense for get a DD guy. If you want to grind forever and only be able to play one cookie cutter way then The Elder Scrolls Series is not for YOU.

Corellon Thromorin · September 2015

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO wrote: »

This makes no sense have you even played the game?!?

Yes.

Doing magical things with stamina like turning my one arrow in to two dozen burning arrows that rain from the sky ( scorched earth )? Maybe you mean swinging my Two Handed Weapon and creating a general damage shield ( brawler ). How about turning one arrow into 20 and launching them with one draw of my bow ( arrow stray ).

You can do a little of magic with stamina at release wanting to use your class powers on a stamina is not lore breaking

It is

the game was magic everywhere cause stamina was pointless before 1.6. Plus what the heavy handed nerf to Stamina defense that pushed a pot of people back to magic builds.

If you want to do what ever you want and be *good* The Elder Scrolls is not the series for you F*CK out of here

No. I won't. Please, also try not to use offensive language

I was always a Heavy Armored Arcane Archer full heavy with a bound Bow and Daedric summons to fight with me in all the game don't have the magic of robes or the heavy damage that most heavy armor used had but I did have a great balance of the two that's exactly with the elder scrolls is. Play your way and make it work.

In a MMO if everything works there is no point for different classes because A = B = C instead of "Paper > Rock > Scissors > Paper" system.

That's not what cookie cutter MMOs are if your if you deal damage why need a heal get a healer friend, what you heal do damage no that's not your job you can't have powers like that, ohh your a tank what would you need offense for get a DD guy. If you want to grind forever and only be able to play one cookie cutter way then The Elder Scrolls Series is not for YOU.

Yes, and how is that relevant to the rant?

jkemmery · September 2015

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO wrote: »

This makes no sense have you even played the game?!? Doing magical things with stamina like turning my one arrow in to two dozen burning arrows that rain from the sky ( scorched earth )? Maybe you mean swinging my Two Handed Weapon and creating a general damage shield ( brawler ). How about turning one arrow into 20 and launching them with one draw of my bow ( arrow stray ).

You can do a little of magic with stamina at release wanting to use your class powers on a stamina is not lore breaking the game was magic everywhere cause stamina was pointless before 1.6. Plus what the heavy handed nerf to Stamina defense that pushed a pot of people back to magic builds.

If you want to do what ever you want and be *good* The Elder Scrolls is not the series for you F*CK out of here I was always a Heavy Armored Arcane Archer full heavy with a bound Bow and Daedric summons to fight with me in all the game don't have the magic of robes or the heavy damage that most heavy armor used had but I did have a great balance of the two that's exactly with the elder scrolls is. Play your way and make it work.

That's not what cookie cutter MMOs are if your if you deal damage why need a heal get a healer friend, what you heal do damage no that's not your job you can't have powers like that, ohh your a tank what would you need offense for get a DD guy. If you want to grind forever and only be able to play one cookie cutter way then The Elder Scrolls Series is not for YOU.

@Corellon Thromorin, if you have a hard time following this, it's not due to your lack of English comprehension. I barely understand it myself, I'm not even sure if this supports your rant, or is refuting it, honestly.

a.skelton92 · September 2015

True freedom of choice would mean the weapon skill lines were actually effective as stand alone trees not just used as 'mixers'... I hate the classes on this game, why is there not just a normal warrior class for example. Why does everything have to be magical?? Growing wings and all that crap..So irritating. There is an entire race of people that hate the use of magic yet EVERY class uses it, be it shooting a purple thing or growing bloody wings..

I miss just being able to play as a warrior that kills people with the weapon on his back. MAKE A BARBARIAN/ WARRIOR CLASS OR JUST GIVE WEAPON SKILL LINES BLOODY ULTIMATES!

Rant over.

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO · September 2015

My point is efficiency you can be an Heavy Armored Archer just as efficient as you would be in Medium. This games *** poor efficiency one resource stamina covers too much and magic has better heals and damage mitigation. Class power being better then weapon powers meant you had to go magic to use class powers for damage.

Now with more stamina builds people want to use their class powers as well. Stamina Weapon powers fall short on some points to heal as a stamina build you need to use Two handed and vigor magic has a weapon just for that every class has burst heals or strong HoTs but most are magic and worthless to a stamina builds.

Corellon Thromorin · September 2015

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO wrote: »

My point is efficiency you can be an Heavy Armored Archer just as efficient as you would be in Medium. This games *** poor efficiency one resource stamina covers too much and magic has better heals and damage mitigation. Class power being better then weapon powers meant you had to go magic to use class powers for damage.

Now with more stamina builds people want to use their class powers as well. Stamina Weapon powers fall short on some points to heal as a stamina build you need to use Two handed and vigor magic has a weapon just for that every class has burst heals or strong HoTs but most are magic and worthless to a stamina builds.

That's because you can't and shouldn't do magic with stamina.
Want a healing spell? Play with magicka.

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO · September 2015

Corellon Thromorin wrote: »

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO wrote: »

My point is efficiency you can be an Heavy Armored Archer just as efficient as you would be in Medium. This games *** poor efficiency one resource stamina covers too much and magic has better heals and damage mitigation. Class power being better then weapon powers meant you had to go magic to use class powers for damage.

Now with more stamina builds people want to use their class powers as well. Stamina Weapon powers fall short on some points to heal as a stamina build you need to use Two handed and vigor magic has a weapon just for that every class has burst heals or strong HoTs but most are magic and worthless to a stamina builds.

That's because you can't and shouldn't do magic with stamina.
Want a healing spell? Play with magicka.

Umm no Magic has damage, heal and damage mitigation. No one can say if you want to kill go stamina so why is it fair to not give stamina heals. Stamina has not have higher damage or mobility then magic but gets gimpped on the heals why?

Corellon Thromorin · September 2015

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO wrote: »

Corellon Thromorin wrote: »

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO wrote: »

My point is efficiency you can be an Heavy Armored Archer just as efficient as you would be in Medium. This games *** poor efficiency one resource stamina covers too much and magic has better heals and damage mitigation. Class power being better then weapon powers meant you had to go magic to use class powers for damage.

Now with more stamina builds people want to use their class powers as well. Stamina Weapon powers fall short on some points to heal as a stamina build you need to use Two handed and vigor magic has a weapon just for that every class has burst heals or strong HoTs but most are magic and worthless to a stamina builds.

That's because you can't and shouldn't do magic with stamina.
Want a healing spell? Play with magicka.

Umm no Magic has damage, heal and damage mitigation. No one can say if you want to kill go stamina so why is it fair to not give stamina heals. Stamina has not have higher damage or mobility then magic but gets gimpped on the heals why?

Because Stamina is not Magic.

Chieve · September 2015

I don't post on here to complain about the game.

The only thing I post here for was text chat.

I loved the game when I first got it too but over time my desire to talk to others and enjoy the game with them grew.

Siniztor · September 2015

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO wrote: »

Corellon Thromorin wrote: »

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO wrote: »

My point is efficiency you can be an Heavy Armored Archer just as efficient as you would be in Medium. This games *** poor efficiency one resource stamina covers too much and magic has better heals and damage mitigation. Class power being better then weapon powers meant you had to go magic to use class powers for damage.

Now with more stamina builds people want to use their class powers as well. Stamina Weapon powers fall short on some points to heal as a stamina build you need to use Two handed and vigor magic has a weapon just for that every class has burst heals or strong HoTs but most are magic and worthless to a stamina builds.

That's because you can't and shouldn't do magic with stamina.
Want a healing spell? Play with magicka.

Umm no Magic has damage, heal and damage mitigation. No one can say if you want to kill go stamina so why is it fair oto not give stamina heals. Stamina has not have higher damage or mobility then magic but gets gimpped on the heals why?

LOL love when i see this..reminds me of my kid saying his brother got 1 more cookie then him its not fair LOL

Stam is supose to be for pyschial things..swinging a sword, holding up a heavy sheild to block, pulling back a bow. wearing heavy armor and not walking so slow a turtle could pass ya..So in my eyes a heal is magic and always has been in any games lol well unless your gonna run around the game slaming your hand into peoples foreheads yelling "Be healed my son"

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO · September 2015

Corellon Thromorin wrote: »

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO wrote: »

Corellon Thromorin wrote: »

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO wrote: »

My point is efficiency you can be an Heavy Armored Archer just as efficient as you would be in Medium. This games *** poor efficiency one resource stamina covers too much and magic has better heals and damage mitigation. Class power being better then weapon powers meant you had to go magic to use class powers for damage.

Now with more stamina builds people want to use their class powers as well. Stamina Weapon powers fall short on some points to heal as a stamina build you need to use Two handed and vigor magic has a weapon just for that every class has burst heals or strong HoTs but most are magic and worthless to a stamina builds.

That's because you can't and shouldn't do magic with stamina.
Want a healing spell? Play with magicka.

Umm no Magic has damage, heal and damage mitigation. No one can say if you want to kill go stamina so why is it fair to not give stamina heals. Stamina has not have higher damage or mobility then magic but gets gimpped on the heals why?

Because Stamina is not Magic.

And in every last single Eldee Scrolls Game stamina and heavy weapons and bows have melted mages lets go back that if stamina gets not good heals

Siniztor · September 2015

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO wrote: »

Corellon Thromorin wrote: »

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO wrote: »

Corellon Thromorin wrote: »

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO wrote: »

My point is efficiency you can be an Heavy Armored Archer just as efficient as you would be in Medium. This games *** poor efficiency one resource stamina covers too much and magic has better heals and damage mitigation. Class power being better then weapon powers meant you had to go magic to use class powers for damage.

Now with more stamina builds people want to use their class powers as well. Stamina Weapon powers fall short on some points to heal as a stamina build you need to use Two handed and vigor magic has a weapon just for that every class has burst heals or strong HoTs but most are magic and worthless to a stamina builds.

That's because you can't and shouldn't do magic with stamina.
Want a healing spell? Play with magicka.

Umm no Magic has damage, heal and damage mitigation. No one can say if you want to kill go stamina so why is it fair to not give stamina heals. Stamina has not have higher damage or mobility then magic but gets gimpped on the heals why?

Because Stamina is not Magic.

And in every last single Eldee Scrolls Game stamina and heavy weapons and bows have melted mages lets go back that if stamina gets not good heals

Really? well in every last ES game..you were fighting NPC"S with AI...I know in this game i kill NPCS no problem with my NB (bow) DK (2 hander) just fine melt thru them like butter

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO · September 2015

Siniztor wrote: »

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO wrote: »

Corellon Thromorin wrote: »

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO wrote: »

Corellon Thromorin wrote: »

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO wrote: »

My point is efficiency you can be an Heavy Armored Archer just as efficient as you would be in Medium. This games *** poor efficiency one resource stamina covers too much and magic has better heals and damage mitigation. Class power being better then weapon powers meant you had to go magic to use class powers for damage.

Now with more stamina builds people want to use their class powers as well. Stamina Weapon powers fall short on some points to heal as a stamina build you need to use Two handed and vigor magic has a weapon just for that every class has burst heals or strong HoTs but most are magic and worthless to a stamina builds.

That's because you can't and shouldn't do magic with stamina.
Want a healing spell? Play with magicka.

Umm no Magic has damage, heal and damage mitigation. No one can say if you want to kill go stamina so why is it fair to not give stamina heals. Stamina has not have higher damage or mobility then magic but gets gimpped on the heals why?

Because Stamina is not Magic.

And in every last single Eldee Scrolls Game stamina and heavy weapons and bows have melted mages lets go back that if stamina gets not good heals

Really? well in every last ES game..you were fighting NPC"S with AI...I know in this game i kill NPCS no problem with my NB (bow) DK (2 hander) just fine melt thru them like butter

That's my point it was sarcasm if you got hit with an arrow or greatsword you died in your robes that had to be changed for clear balance but killing fast and taking hits was your power in heavy armor that doesn't happen here so if both pools can take a hit and be highly mobile while dropping heavy damage why does only one poll also get strong heals be that restoration or class heals