Zergs and solutions to the blobbing gameplay

wraith808 · September 2015

There have been several threads and several complaints about Zergs. There's also been solutions put into place to limit zergs (increasing AOE caps, removing FC), but these have been half-effective being generous. Ok, they've not been effective at all. And with 2.1, all of those changes to do that have pretty much been overridden by a lot of changes that make being in a blob effective. So I wanted to start a thread where we can talk about specific changes to make Cyrodiil more dynamic without removing the massive battles that were promised to us.

For my part, I enjoy smaller scale combat- I'm more of a PvE/PvP guy, that chases people (and is chased by people) in delves, through cities, and occasionally gets involved in a siege. But I understand the want for mass combat- after all, that's what it was promised as. And those sieges are pretty fun.

Removing AOE caps was a good start- if you're in the radius, you should be affected. I'd go even farther. Add friendly fire. People throwing off the AOE bombs would have to be more careful and reasoned, rather than just running around hitting a button. You'd have to time sallies so that you weren't getting hit by your siege weapons. People need to be punished for bad tactics. I remember in one of our FtF RPG sessions where a wizard threw a fireball into an enclosed space, and EVERYONE paid for their lack of foresight.

What other things could make numbers still mean something, but reward tactics rather than running around and blindly acting?

Crown · September 2015

There are a lot of things that have been discussed and theorized, though before spending a lot of time and effort doing so further, we should have an indication of whether the ZOS people actually want / care about such input.

This is the type of thing that would be brought up in a discussion such as what I described here: http://goo.gl/GZO2GF

reften · September 2015

Friendly fire - griefing trolls. It's bad enough that trolls pickup scrolls and give them to the enemy.

No thanks.

I DO think that a system that counts the # of friendlies hit as reduces damage to bad-guys is a possibility. But that might render AoEs useless, even in small groups.

Kupoking · September 2015

Since the beginning, ESO pvp was about large scale battle with hundreds of players on you screen. Look at features, cinematics and old press articles.

Therefore if you like it or not, large scale pvp, which you refer as zerging, is here to stay.

I know you prefer small scale. But this game isnt about small scale pvp at all. Combat isnt designed for small scale except ganking, otherwise any build could duel any other build, which isnt the case.

So to conclude, no means to be disrespectful, but perhaps this isnt the game for you. Or perhaps you should try ganking. Reguardless, there is a reason there are no arena or structured pvp in this game.

bsmorrowb14_ESO · September 2015

Clustered Forces (Debuff) - When X number of players of the same faction are in the same area they receive a movement penalty. This penalty grows as the blob grows.

Just throwing some rough numbers out there...
10-20 Players: 15%
21-40 Players: 25%
41+ Players: 35%

If that doesn't work, perhaps also tie in a dmg debuff and or dmg taken modifier as well.

Dyride · September 2015

I really think the only thing that needs to change is the AOE cap should be lifted so that full damage is hitting more than just the first 6 people hit.

Right now, if I Steel Tornado and hit 18 people, 6 get full damage and 12 only get half damage. So numbers act as a huge boost to mitigation and will always make ball groups stronger.

wraith808 · September 2015

houimetub17_ESO wrote: »

Since the beginning, ESO pvp was about large scale battle with hundreds of players on you screen. Look at features, cinematics and old press articles.

Therefore if you like it or not, large scale pvp, which you refer as zerging, is here to stay.

I know you prefer small scale. But this game isnt about small scale pvp at all. Combat isnt designed for small scale except ganking, otherwise any build could duel any other build, which isnt the case.

So to conclude, no means to be disrespectful, but perhaps this isnt the game for you. Or perhaps you should try ganking. Reguardless, there is a reason there are no arena or structured pvp in this game.

@houimetub17_ESO

I thought I'd addressed that, but since it's apparently not apparent, I'm not equating Zergs to Large Scale combat. The latter is good, the former, not so much. So what differentiates it?

If you see people moving across the battle field spamming one ability, not looking out for anything other than their next target, with no situational awareness required nor wanted- you're looking at a Zerg. If you see people using tactics to outflank enemies, and make good collateral use of abilities and siege weapons and to generally use the mechanics to outplay their enemies- that's large scale combat.

And since you didn't read before maybe saying the game is for me, I'll single out the part that would indicate that insightful reading (or just reading) is required:

But I understand the want for mass combat- after all, that's what it was promised as. And those sieges are pretty fun.

<snip />

What other things could make numbers still mean something, but reward tactics rather than running around and blindly acting?

And usually, when you say not to be disrespectful, you should stop. The need to put that in there shows that you're just trying to justify the disrespect.

wraith808 · September 2015

bsmorrowb14_ESO wrote: »

Clustered Forces (Debuff) - When X number of players of the same faction are in the same area they receive a movement penalty. This penalty grows as the blob grows.

Just throwing some rough numbers out there...
10-20 Players: 15%
21-40 Players: 25%
41+ Players: 35%

If that doesn't work, perhaps also tie in a dmg debuff and or dmg taken modifier as well.

That would help to simulate that you can't just put numbers in a location... the fighters tend to get in each others way. Numbers will win out in the end, but they will become less effective. Interesting idea...

wraith808 · September 2015

reften wrote: »

Friendly fire - griefing trolls. It's bad enough that trolls pickup scrolls and give them to the enemy.

No thanks.

I DO think that a system that counts the # of friendlies hit as reduces damage to bad-guys is a possibility. But that might render AoEs useless, even in small groups.

As far as the griefing, I'm not sure of a good penalty. Maybe reducing AP? As AP is supposed to be contribution to your alliance, you directly lose them for working against it.

But I do see what you mean- didn't think about people intentionally killing their own alliance.

rb2001 · September 2015

wraith808 wrote: »

bsmorrowb14_ESO wrote: »

Clustered Forces (Debuff) - When X number of players of the same faction are in the same area they receive a movement penalty. This penalty grows as the blob grows.

Just throwing some rough numbers out there...
10-20 Players: 15%
21-40 Players: 25%
41+ Players: 35%

If that doesn't work, perhaps also tie in a dmg debuff and or dmg taken modifier as well.

That would help to simulate that you can't just put numbers in a location... the fighters tend to get in each others way. Numbers will win out in the end, but they will become less effective. Interesting idea...

I really like this line of thought.

There are many ways it could be implemented. When you pile up a bunch of soldiers in a blob, only the first line or two can reasonably hit someone, the rest are there to provide more numbers when the first guys die.

I quite like the combat in ESO, but it is too much based on just throwing damage all over the place through everything else. There is no reason that I should be able to just stand in the middle of 10 of my men and my enemies, and somehow AOE hit them all, and also not my friends.

This also pertains to the group dungeons.

Yeah, it works, as currently implemented. It does work, but it's really strange, and a system where line of sight, position and who you can realistically hit were priorities could also work very well, and could further distance ESO from the regular MMO pack where stats rule all else.

In a nutshell, a system where each person can only attack what's physically within grasp (position, etc., including different case by case for different weapons, staffs) instead of just smacking out AOE onto everything would overall slow down the pace of combat, allow players to single out eachothers and mobs, and turn combat more strategic overall.

People could say "but now I'm nerfed!", but the thing is, this would mean that you the player could now use terrain to your advantage in a way you currently can't. You could for example use a choke point and hold off the mobs (or players) because only 2 of them can be at you there.

This would enable things like going into group dungeons and using tactics, terrain, planning, positioning instead of just stats and AOE to win.

Most importantly, it would mean that the enemy mobs (or player zergs, because the mechanics are similar when it comes down to it), can't all just steamroll over you and all hit you at the same time (which doesn't really make a lot of sense to me).

ESO combat is pretty great, and feels pretty good. It's miles ahead of any other MMO I've tried. However, it does definitely rely on smacking out AOE on everything / everyone hitting everyone at the same time too much, both of terms of what is required to do by players, and what the mobs do to players.

Docmandu · September 2015

Friendly fire doesn't work... too many trolls and bored kids playing games these days.

Make heals / barrier group only (and with that I mean small group, not the raid size group). Would improve actual PvP gameplay dynamic too.

jrkhan · September 2015

houimetub17_ESO wrote: »

Since the beginning, ESO pvp was about large scale battle with hundreds of players on you screen. Look at features, cinematics and old press articles.

Therefore if you like it or not, large scale pvp, which you refer as zerging, is here to stay.

I know you prefer small scale. But this game isnt about small scale pvp at all. Combat isnt designed for small scale except ganking, otherwise any build could duel any other build, which isnt the case.

So to conclude, no means to be disrespectful, but perhaps this isnt the game for you. Or perhaps you should try ganking. Reguardless, there is a reason there are no arena or structured pvp in this game.

No one was suggesting we shouldn't have large scale pvp.
Do you think the only valid tactic for large groups should be to stack up on a single point to get free damage reduction?
The OP and many others, are arguing this TACTIC is bad for large scale pvp.
If you want to run with 60 people, fine. But 60 people standing on a single point? No promotional video ever showed THAT.

wraith808 · September 2015

Docmandu wrote: »

Friendly fire doesn't work... too many trolls and bored kids playing games these days.

Make heals / barrier group only (and with that I mean small group, not the raid size group). Would improve actual PvP gameplay dynamic too.

That's actually a good idea too, and would work in PvE with the stupid-smart-heal mechanic too. If it's only looking to heal your group, then you don't get the complaints about healing people that you didn't intend. Although, sometimes you do want to heal someone out of group.

Lord_Hev · September 2015

Dynamic ultimate gain.

Ezareth · September 2015

Friends don't let friends play in Zergs.

Mojmir · September 2015

Judging by the grindfest for new mats,armor.I think zos wants zergs

vortexman11 · September 2015

Dynamic Ultimate Generation.

wraith808 · September 2015

Lord_Hev wrote: »

Dynamic ultimate gain.

@Lord_Hev

What do you mean? Did I miss a good conversation about this? Please share!

So I take it you mean this response

Is that pre 1.6 ultimate gain? I didn't know that it was ever implemented in game... or you mean by the fact that you received ultimate for every target hit? That was back when you didn't need to be emperor in order to spawn off banners and swarms in good order.

I agree that a change was needed- however, I don't agree with the change that they made. Other than a complete reversion, what would be a good middle of the road?

Perphection · September 2015

houimetub17_ESO wrote: »

Since the beginning, ESO pvp was about large scale battle with hundreds of players on you screen. Look at features, cinematics and old press articles.

Therefore if you like it or not, large scale pvp, which you refer as zerging, is here to stay.

I know you prefer small scale. But this game isnt about small scale pvp at all. Combat isnt designed for small scale except ganking, otherwise any build could duel any other build, which isnt the case.

So to conclude, no means to be disrespectful, but perhaps this isnt the game for you. Or perhaps you should try ganking. Reguardless, there is a reason there are no arena or structured pvp in this game.

*facepalm*

So, despite the fact that the game cannot handle these "large scale pvp" battles and that it has been the root cause of this game losing a vast majority of it's PvP population... you think because it was advertised, the game should remain the same and still try to support these massive battles that clearly do not work?

You my friend are of the exact same mindset as the developers at ZOS. You have a vision that you're not willing to alter in accordance to unforeseen circumstances.

We all know what the real problem is, it's the ZOS devs. It's the fact that they, like you, have a "vision", of what this game should be and continue to ignore what it is, and how it is played.

Once again, it's another game with massive potential but has such a severe disconnect between the players and developers that those of us left will bide our time until the next MMO with PvP and again, we will hope and pray that they don't make the same mistakes.

Rune_Relic · September 2015

Dyride wrote: »

I really think the only thing that needs to change is the AOE cap should be lifted so that full damage is hitting more than just the first 6 people hit.

Right now, if I Steel Tornado and hit 18 people, 6 get full damage and 12 only get half damage. So numbers act as a huge boost to mitigation and will always make ball groups stronger.

And if 100 people stack on flag ?
Lag should be awesome.

AoE cap removal only work if you one shot people.
If they stand there healing/purging everything, you solve nothing except increase the calcs and the lag.

Theres also a massive difference between a large group of enemies and a large group of stacked enemies.
Its the STACKED enemies that create the lag.

Mr_Nobody · September 2015

Theres 1 way to fix zerg blobbing...

#Rework Purge.

~

JDar · September 2015

How to deal with zergs

1) Ignore them
2) Get out the way
3) Don't cry when you can't solo them with proxy det and bats

Bonus points: Stay off the forums with your qq
Flawless victory: Learn how to have fun in a game where people group up

slowassferrariub17_ESO · September 2015

JDar wrote: »

How to deal with zergs

1) Ignore them
2) Get out the way
3) Don't cry when you can't solo them with proxy det and bats

Bonus points: Stay off the forums with your qq
Flawless victory: Learn how to have fun in a game where people group up

you must run with the 3 letter zergs. i bet you think you're good.

FENGRUSH · September 2015

Rune_Relic wrote: »

Dyride wrote: »

I really think the only thing that needs to change is the AOE cap should be lifted so that full damage is hitting more than just the first 6 people hit.

Right now, if I Steel Tornado and hit 18 people, 6 get full damage and 12 only get half damage. So numbers act as a huge boost to mitigation and will always make ball groups stronger.

And if 100 people stack on flag ?
Lag should be awesome.

AoE cap removal only work if you one shot people.
If they stand there healing/purging everything, you solve nothing except increase the calcs and the lag.

Theres also a massive difference between a large group of enemies and a large group of stacked enemies.
Its the STACKED enemies that create the lag.

You shouldnt 1 shot people by removing AOE caps. Removing them now with damage reduction is at a better place than if done in 1.6 for the zergs. You should still need a group and organization to bust them, which you can. But if you tried to bust 100 people, every AOE you do will deal full damage to a different 6 people out of a 100.

Also it will not increase calculations anymore than theyre at right now. Youre never hitting 72+ targets at this point. So the number of calculations will not be increased. WHat will change is the amount of damage and duration of fights. The second one is what is relevant here.

Lord_Hev · September 2015

JDar wrote: »

How to deal with zergs

1) Ignore them
2) Get out the way
3) Don't cry when you can't solo them with proxy det and bats

Bonus points: Stay off the forums with your qq
Flawless victory: Learn how to have fun in a game where people group up

Hard to "ignore" them, when they all tend to go out of their way to all chase down a single player. The fact that they are so rampant does not help either. Which then leads to the 2nd point. You can't get out of their way since they all mindlessly throw caltrops and 100 other snares to ensure they can zerg down that 1 player in the middle of nowhere. Which then leads to point 3, zergs are an issue, an issue that has been getting worse, and worse since 1.6. They are everywhere, and ZOS keeps catering to them. The only counter to them is other mindless zergs, which limits our way to play and ruins many player's immersion.

Draxys · September 2015

Really with the friendly fire thing again? It's a terrible idea in every way

Bring back the purge bug and dynamic ultimate, problem solved(ish)

Rev Rielle · September 2015

I think the answer is having some more Alliance War appropriate skills that specifically focus on dispersing and destroying zergs. These would be skills that are deadly against zergs, but otherwise ineffective against individuals. If Zenimax really wanted to do away with the zerg-style gameplay they could do so very easily with a couple of focused assault skills. Whether or not they want to remains to be seen.

Eglath · September 2015

vortexman11 wrote: »

Dynamic Ultimate Generation.

^ That + adjusted purge an barrier with less dmg reduction from Battle Spirit and good groups will easily wipe zergs.

Asmael · September 2015

- Rebuff sieges
- Proxy detonation has no cap on bonus damage per target hit
- Dynamic ultimate regeneration
- Removal of (damaging) AoE caps
- Add AoE caps for healing (heh, why the damaging AoEs should be the only ones capped?)
- Make dedicated Alliance war skills with unlimited scaling based on number of targets hit

You can pick multiple of those.

Ezareth · September 2015

Lord_Hev wrote: »

JDar wrote: »

How to deal with zergs

1) Ignore them
2) Get out the way
3) Don't cry when you can't solo them with proxy det and bats

Bonus points: Stay off the forums with your qq
Flawless victory: Learn how to have fun in a game where people group up

Hard to "ignore" them, when they all tend to go out of their way to all chase down a single player. The fact that they are so rampant does not help either. Which then leads to the 2nd point. You can't get out of their way since they all mindlessly throw caltrops and 100 other snares to ensure they can zerg down that 1 player in the middle of nowhere. Which then leads to point 3, zergs are an issue, an issue that has been getting worse, and worse since 1.6. They are everywhere, and ZOS keeps catering to them. The only counter to them is other mindless zergs, which limits our way to play and ruins many player's immersion.

And it's not just enemy zergs either. I was clearing a room solo making my way to a chest when a DC zerg enters and zergs everything down. I open the chest and some random starts cursing at me for "stealing his chest". I push deeper running past several rooms of mobs and another DC Zerg is clearing the mobs ahead so no mobs there either. Go to the center of the sewers and an EP zerg is working its way towards me so I have to work my way back.

I need to make the magical equivalent to frag grenades or something IMO.

Asmael · September 2015

I forgot to add this:
- Make sieges usable in IC