PVE Hybrids

jebuspowers · September 2015

I'm all for people doing whatever they want. By all means do what you can to get things done when solo. Personally, I tried ruling as a stamblade when I normally tank. I wasn't too happy when I couldn't solo a public dungeon boss and didn't seem to be able to burn things down when running dailies even though I made some real good gear for the transition. From that failed attempt and having to group with people playing the role I normally play as I have come to a conclusion:

Pick one job and be good at it

I relentlessly ridicule dps wearing all heavy or a tank wearing light or medium armor. Before you read this and start lighting me up, ranting about how you can do this and that, or posting videos of one guy that can tank in light armor hear me out.

Just because you might be god's gift to amazing when it comes to being dps in all heavy there are about 1000 other people with the same idea and suck at it. Same with people that tank in light armor. I have noticed that it's usually only DK's that do this. Only a couple of people have figured out how to do it, which is basically just shield stacking (spam bone shield, annulment, sun shield, reflective scales, damage shield on weapons, light armor version of whitestrakes)and using ultimates (magma armor) for survivability. But let's be real here. Every person in a group has a job and when you try to run as a hybrid you aren't really helping nearly as much as you could be. I have a few friends l regularly run dungeons with and we handle them well. Occasionally we have to pug it and that's when I see people doing stuff that is the equivalent of the people of Walmart. Sorry all heavy dps, but you aren't going to outdamage the dps light or medium (with respect to their main resource). Sorry light/medium armor tanks, but your survivability is dependent on too many variables and you make healers nervous. If you have to spam abilities to stay alive then what is the point in wearing anything less than 5 heavy? Also, if you are dps and worried about your survivability just get better at dodging stuff and knowing mechanics of fights. Don't short yourself on damage, which makes fights take longer, which causes you tio take more damage.

Like I said, solo however you want. But do everyone a favor. If you are queued up for a group dungeon or instance, then come correct sir.

hardcore_gmr · September 2015

jebuspowers wrote: »

I'm all for people doing whatever they want. By all means do what you can to get things done when solo. Personally, I tried ruling as a stamblade when I normally tank. I wasn't too happy when I couldn't solo a public dungeon boss and didn't seem to be able to burn things down when running dailies even though I made some real good gear for the transition. From that failed attempt and having to group with people playing the role I normally play as I have come to a conclusion:

Pick one job and be good at it

I relentlessly ridicule dps wearing all heavy or a tank wearing light or medium armor. Before you read this and start lighting me up, ranting about how you can do this and that, or posting videos of one guy that can tank in light armor hear me out.

Just because you might be god's gift to amazing when it comes to being dps in all heavy there are about 1000 other people with the same idea and suck at it. Same with people that tank in light armor. I have noticed that it's usually only DK's that do this. Only a couple of people have figured out how to do it, which is basically just shield stacking (spam bone shield, annulment, sun shield, reflective scales, damage shield on weapons, light armor version of whitestrakes)and using ultimates (magma armor) for survivability. But let's be real here. Every person in a group has a job and when you try to run as a hybrid you aren't really helping nearly as much as you could be. I have a few friends l regularly run dungeons with and we handle them well. Occasionally we have to pug it and that's when I see people doing stuff that is the equivalent of the people of Walmart. Sorry all heavy dps, but you aren't going to outdamage the dps light or medium (with respect to their main resource). Sorry light/medium armor tanks, but your survivability is dependent on too many variables and you make healers nervous. If you have to spam abilities to stay alive then what is the point in wearing anything less than 5 heavy? Also, if you are dps and worried about your survivability just get better at dodging stuff and knowing mechanics of fights. Don't short yourself on damage, which makes fights take longer, which causes you tio take more damage.

Like I said, solo however you want. But do everyone a favor. If you are queued up for a group dungeon or instance, then come correct sir.

My only problem with this is that it appears as if you somehow believe that there is only one way to achieve a certain result, this is far from the case. All classes, gear, builds and playstyles are available to all players but the determining factor of how effective you will be will come down to the X-Factor of SKILL! You started to touch on this but have not seen it through all the way, just because you wear heavy armor doesn't make you a good tank, or if you wear light/medium armor doesn't make you a good DPS. Players are good based on how long they've played the game and how much understanding they have of game mechanics, and most importantly how much skill they have in executing the philosophy of their build. Telling people thier gear is wrong or even worst ridiculing people for their choice of gear only shows that you have little understanding of how this game actually works. There is no right or wrong way to play this game, Sure there are some commonly understood principles but a good player can just as easily prove these rules don't apply as a bad player is to show why they exist in the first place. The most commonly asked question by new players is what is the best "X" for "Y" result, and the best answer any player can give is to tell them to pick the play style they feel the most comfortable with, the one they can execute the most effectively, and the one that utilizes their own player skill the most. Everything else is simple opinion and conjecture based on that players personal experience. Don't shun or type caste another player based on your own short comings.

That is not to say that if you group up with a guy who says he's a tank and is wearing light armor and he keeps dying every three seconds then you might want to inform him that he gets better protection from a heavy set, or a DPS who is useless in a burn phase cause he's tickling a boss with no passives to help the group; then yes educate these players, but don't illustrate your own bias by trying to convince someone they are going something wrong just because it doesn't match your particular brand of play.

Alucardo · September 2015

In a game that offers flexibility and the freedom to play how you want, it's unfair to say "If you're a tank, wear heavy armour. If you're dps wear medium. Healer, wear light", etc. If you're a group leader and want to deny them entry because they choose to play in their own style, by all means. But posting on forums in this manner makes you look a bit pompous. No offence intended. If we fail a dungeon because people are trying out new and different builds, so be it. It's a game. They'll go in and try a different setup. Beats seeing the same builds all over the place.

redspecter23 · September 2015

I think the op is on the right track but it might be a bit more helpful to say that someone should maximize their effectiveness, regardless of how they choose to play. If you're going to be a stam dps in heavy armor, at least make it dps armor like hunding's rage. Whitestrake's is great survivability armor but lately I see people claiming to be dps but throw a pile of defensive armor and skills on their bar. So much that they lose not only the med/light armor passives but any sort of dps altogether in favor of this illusion of defense which won't help in a group dungeon if you've been brought in as a dps. You'll do low damage and put the burden on the other members. You're basically a tank without a taunt at that point. The group very likely does not need a second, less useful, tank.

The op does touch on this by mentioning that outside the box builds are possible but it's also my observation that many times players go out of their way to avoid speccing for their role in order to play more of a hybrid role. In a group situation, this just isn't necessary or as useful as maximizing your actual role.

Solo? Do whatever you want. In a group? Please try to contribute to the best of your ability for the role you've been brought in to play.

Alucardo · September 2015

redspecter23 wrote: »

I think the op is on the right track but it might be a bit more helpful to say that someone should maximize their effectiveness, regardless of how they choose to play. If you're going to be a stam dps in heavy armor, at least make it dps armor like hunding's rage. Whitestrake's is great survivability armor but lately I see people claiming to be dps but throw a pile of defensive armor and skills on their bar. So much that they lose not only the med/light armor passives but any sort of dps altogether in favor of this illusion of defense which won't help in a group dungeon if you've been brought in as a dps. You'll do low damage and put the burden on the other members. You're basically a tank without a taunt at that point. The group very likely does not need a second, less useful, tank.

The op does touch on this by mentioning that outside the box builds are possible but it's also my observation that many times players go out of their way to avoid speccing for their role in order to play more of a hybrid role. In a group situation, this just isn't necessary or as useful as maximizing your actual role.

Solo? Do whatever you want. In a group? Please try to contribute to the best of your ability for the role you've been brought in to play.

While this goes against my comment, I find it insightful because this is how the post SHOULD have been. More informative and less pompous. I would recommend anyone reading to disregard the OP and take in the information in the above comment.

jebuspowers · September 2015

What I'm saying is that a skilled player might be able to pull these things off which I did state in my op. Heavy armor doesn't make a tank just as light and medium don't make a dps. However, your gear should not be counter effective to your role. Have I ever kicked someone from a group for this? Sure haven't. But it will be noticeable if you can't handle your business because you make the group less effective. There is more than one way to achieve a result: the optimal way and everything else. Let me give an example or two.

I was in vet spindleclutch once and on the last boss we were having trouble finishing it. One of the dps was wearing all heavy gear so needless to say, the wraiths were not dying fast enough which means I was tanking more damage, and the healer was spamming. The healer thought it would be a good idea after the second wipe to switch into heavy and tank the boss while I tank the adds. He made himself some nice tank gear but it didn't help and our healer that went tank died immediately and we never got to finish it that run. Later I went with my normal team of friends and blasted through it.

Let me pose this question to anyone who cares to answer: Would you expect a dps to be just as effective wearing all heavy as opposed to something else? I suspect the answer is no, but you would give him a chance because maybe he can.

Would you expect a healer to be effective wearing all medium? I suspect the answer is no.

Lastly, let's say you were in a group dungeon and your healer could not keep up with healing people. Your group can't pass the first boss because everyone isn't getting healed enough and they keep dying. Your healer is covered in medium armor and uses a bow. What would you tell your friends as to how effective your healer was? I imagine your answer involved something like wearing the wrong gear.

hardcore_gmr · September 2015

redspecter23 wrote: »

I think the op is on the right track but it might be a bit more helpful to say that someone should maximize their effectiveness, regardless of how they choose to play. If you're going to be a stam dps in heavy armor, at least make it dps armor like hunding's rage. Whitestrake's is great survivability armor but lately I see people claiming to be dps but throw a pile of defensive armor and skills on their bar. So much that they lose not only the med/light armor passives but any sort of dps altogether in favor of this illusion of defense which won't help in a group dungeon if you've been brought in as a dps. You'll do low damage and put the burden on the other members. You're basically a tank without a taunt at that point. The group very likely does not need a second, less useful, tank.

The op does touch on this by mentioning that outside the box builds are possible but it's also my observation that many times players go out of their way to avoid speccing for their role in order to play more of a hybrid role. In a group situation, this just isn't necessary or as useful as maximizing your actual role.

Solo? Do whatever you want. In a group? Please try to contribute to the best of your ability for the role you've been brought in to play.

I want to agree with this but I truly feel it's dangerous to say effectiveness is tied to anything short of player skill and knowledge. I think these are great loose rules for new players but as players get more experience theses become less necessary. If we are talking new players then yes follow these as they are Group savers but with more experience players min/max builds matter less and less

zornyan · September 2015

A dps wearing medium instead of heavy isn't going to make a bad team win a match, likewise it won't make a good team lose.

There's Dozens of endgame builds that go against the norm, seen a few heavy armor magika templars that can out tank/dps some dedicated builds.

8% or so damage/hp isn't going to sway the fight.

That's like saying you won't take anyone with less than 500cp into a match as their missing out on 20% stat boosts.

jebuspowers · September 2015

Player skill, experience, and knowledge account for a great portion of success, but gear does account for the rest. In an extreme case, I'm pretty sure no group would walk into Dragonstar with level 10 gear, no matter how good they are. If they did I would imagine the chances of their success would be practically 0, if not absolute 0.

So if skills and knowledge accounts for half of your chance for success and your equipment accounts for the other half, then in order to succeed you should wear optimal gear. Certain equipment is necessary for certain roles. A surgeon probably could do your open heart surgery with a Swiss army knife and a bottle of gin , but I'm guessing you would want your surgery performed with the proper instruments and in the proper setting to ensure, you guessed it, success.

jebuspowers · September 2015

zornyan wrote: »

A dps wearing medium instead of heavy isn't going to make a bad team win a match, likewise it won't make a good team lose.

There's Dozens of endgame builds that go against the norm, seen a few heavy armor magika templars that can out tank/dps some dedicated builds.

8% or so damage/hp isn't going to sway the fight.

That's like saying you won't take anyone with less than 500cp into a match as their missing out on 20% stat boosts.

A lot of end game builds are not what would be considered normal. Some people have figured out how to pull off certain things that most would consider dumb. Take me for instance since I play a Nightblade tank. I have met plenty of people that tell me that they have never seen a Nightblade play as tank. By the time we are done they put me on their friends list or send me a guild invite.

Going with what you just said, 8% can sway a fight, it just doesn't happen often. But it is also the passives that the optimal armor gives that make it a better idea to use. Medium armor boosts stamina regen per piece of medium worn, so a stamina dps benefits the most from wearing mostly medium. Just as tanks do with heavy armor and magicka users do with light armor.

Elijah_Crow · September 2015

Sorry, I can't agree with you. Been playing with DPS Tanks and Heal Tanks, etc. playing hybrid builds is more challenging but can be done and done well in some cases. In most only 10% will be successful but that 10% still mean you are wrong.

willymchilybily · September 2015

There is a big difference by a person who wears heavy armor and uses stamina abilities and is struggling with DPS and someone who wears heavy and is magicka based. As the game is still heavily magicka stacked/based from skills to armour sets.

You need the +12% weapon damage from your 5 pieces of medium armor. You really probably want all 7 pieces to be medium so you get 21% critical, your 28% regen and your 14% reduced cost. And even undaunted mettle doesnt really cut it with a 6% increase to all resource pools the gain is negligible compared to tri-stat food and take those extra 6% crit, 8% regen and 4% reduced cost from +2 more medium armour pieces. Those stats are better than the difference between picking a min/max race and a random/preference race.

There are no easy to craft stamina sets equivalent to the seducer or magnus for stamina users, you cant run a stamina equivalent of magnus/warlock 2x5 piece sets as a stamina user to make up for gaps in sustain, you have no mage light (major prophecy) equivalent skill you can toggle, Stamina equivalent self buffs from a skill line, one could argue entropy vs rally but it ties you to a 2H weapon and you don't then get the option for set bonuses from 2x 1H s unless you use potions and other items to make up for your losses.

All in all there are ways an means around most things but its far easier for a Magicka based player than a Stamina based player.

TL;DR it is easier to compensate DPS/Sustain on a magicka build. ergo the universal statement made by OP is unfairly biased imo

jebuspowers · September 2015

Playing some kind of hybrid tank could be feasible as long as he is wearing mostly heavy armor.